[Paul]

Try positive discrimination...the last thing you want to be to get ahead these days in the UK is a white male....

Possibly one of the stangest postings I've seen on here. I take it you do mean the UK and not SA?

[NikT]

Possibly one of the stangest postings I've seen on here. I take it you do mean the UK and not SA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_discrimination

Nick.:cheers

[Paul]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_discrimination

Nick.:cheers

Thanks Nick, that gives the definition of which I am sure we are all aware - the point I was (maybe badly) making was that the poster said "the last thing you want to be to get ahead...." - rather extreme for the UK wouldn't you agree? I would wager the (vast?) majority of those in positions of responsibility in the UK are still white, and this is not commenting the rights and wrongs of that, just what I believe are the facts

This may well be partially the case in goverment / civil service based jobs especially in certain areas of the country but come on...... this really is a Daily Mail style head-line

[Ramo]

Thanks Nick, that gives the definition of which I am sure we are all aware - the point I was (maybe badly) making was that the poster said "the last thing you want to be to get ahead...." - rather extreme for the UK wouldn't you agree? I would wager the (vast?) majority of those in positions of responsibility in the UK are still white, and this is not commenting the rights and wrongs of that, just what I believe are the facts

This may well be partially the case in goverment / civil service based jobs especially in certain areas of the country but come on...... this really is a Daily Mail style head-line

not only white, but also male...

[Tesall]

Sure, I can't think of any successful white males in the UK at all.


What has that got to do with racism? You can find successful people from every single race in the UK. Some people seem to have forgotten the definition of racism. Maybe the Guardian needs to print one....

You dont attach certain colours to racism you attach a certain attitude.

[Tesall]

Thanks Nick, that gives the definition of which I am sure we are all aware - the point I was (maybe badly) making was that the poster said "the last thing you want to be to get ahead...." - rather extreme for the UK wouldn't you agree? I would wager the (vast?) majority of those in positions of responsibility in the UK are still white, and this is not commenting the rights and wrongs of that, just what I believe are the facts

This may well be partially the case in goverment / civil service based jobs especially in certain areas of the country but come on...... this really is a Daily Mail style head-line

And the vast majority of senior managers in Mexico are Hispanic..... sorry what is your point?

[Kanga]

I assumed Sam B was replying to this post Tesall:


Try positive discrimination...the last thing you want to be to get ahead these days in the UK is a white male....


It's such a pity when something interesting is being discussed on a forum and a poster 'skim reads' the thread, misunderstand someones point and then selectively quotes them, totally out of context and attacks them for it. I've had this happen to me several times (not here) and it's annoying and sends a decent thread off on a tangent.

[Tesall]

I assumed Sam B was replying to this post Tesall:



Thanks but I knew what Sam was talking about. Racism is not defined by numbers and Minority vs Majority. That is incorrect but increasingly common mistake.


It's such a pity when something interesting is being discussed on a forum and a poster 'skim reads' the thread, misunderstand someones point and then selectively quotes them, totally out of context and attacks them for it. I've had this happen to me several times (not here) and it's annoying and sends a decent thread off on a tangent.

Oh the delicious irony....

[Kanga]

Thanks but I knew what Sam was talking about. Racism is not defined by numbers and Minority vs Majority. That is incorrect but increasingly common mistake.

Did I say it was? Although I'm not saying it wasn't, but I've not said either way :confused

I said I thought Sam B's comment that there are heaps of white males in successful positions in the UK was in response to the poster before her saying he thought positive discrimination (in the UK) made being a white male the last thing you'd want to be. Which is ridiculous because anyone can see that being a white male in the UK is the thing to be if you want to get ahead!

What are *you* talking about????

ETA: Actually, forget the last bit- we'll go round and round I fear.

[willsken]

On this issue I have to say, being married to a man who lost out on getting a job because they weren't recruiting white people at the time, (due to positive discrimination) felt like racism to me when it happened.

I’ve heard all the arguments for positive discrimination but I can’t say I’m for it at all. I really can’t understand how, it’s OK to discriminate against one person because of his colour, but if you do it to a person of a different colour then it’s not OK?? To me racism is about discrimination against a person because of colour, full stop. Not being able to pick which colour that should be. :yes

[Kanga]

I feel for you there Willsken ((()))

[willsken]

I feel for you there Willsken ((()))

It was a long time ago and he got there in the end, so to speak. :) We just had to move to another part of the country! (away from my mum:wah but now I live in NZ.... even further away from my mum:wah:wah)

[Sam B]

What has that got to do with racism? You can find successful people from every single race in the UK. Some people seem to have forgotten the definition of racism. Maybe the Guardian needs to print one....

You dont attach certain colours to racism you attach a certain attitude.

Like Kanga said (thanks for getting me Kanga), I wasn't even trying to make a point about racism at the time, I was just responding to the previous poster's comment that the last thing you'd want to be in the UK is a white male. I thought this was an extreme exaggeration, as this is still the 'most likely to succeed' type of person overall in the UK by a long shot regardless of attempts at positive discrimination and I think you'd have to go some to argue otherwise. But actually I don't really get what you were trying to say at all....

[Paul]

And the vast majority of senior managers in Mexico are Hispanic..... sorry what is your point?


Seriously? OK "the last thing you would want to be to get ahead in the Mexican job mark is Hispanic".
Does that ring true or sound ridiculous - hopefully you now get the only point I was trying to make :roll

[Ramo]

Paul, I don't think there is anything particularly controversial about the point that you clearly made. Although there might be some positive discrimination cases in the UK work place, being a white male in the UK is by far the best demographic to be in, to get ahead. In other words, Winka's original point was in general false.

I don't think this was a commentary on racist discrimination either, was just pointing out a factual error.

[sunray]

being a white male in the UK is by far the best demographic to be in, to get ahead. In other words, Winka's original point was in general false.


This obviously depends on the organisation. My husband recently applied for promotion, there were a few vacancies but they were told a certain percentage of posts had to be for women and ethnic minorities. As there were less applicants than the allocated spaces for these posts it meant every woman regardles of suitablilty was granted promotion. There were several white males who weren't given the oportunity (although more than capable) because the were white males.

Racism and dicrimination goes on in all employers it's just if it's againts a white male it's not counted.

[dusk]

Clearly there's always going to be a difference between "in general" and "specifically"

I've almost forgetten what the topic was of this thread...

[Ramo]

This obviously depends on the organisation. My husband recently applied for promotion, there were a few vacancies but they were told a certain percentage of posts had to be for women and ethnic minorities. As there were less applicants than the allocated spaces for these posts it meant every woman regardles of suitablilty was granted promotion. There were several white males who weren't given the oportunity (although more than capable) because the were white males.

Racism and dicrimination goes on in all employers it's just if it's againts a white male it's not counted.

Lol, you cut out my the part where I said in some cases there is positive discrimination! Please don't quote me out of context!

Like I said, I don't think Paul or my point was regarding racism anyway, it was just highlighting that being white and male is 'generally' a better demorgraphic than any other, for getting ahead in the UK.

Agreed Dusk, think we should move on with this thread...

[willsken]

Clearly there's always going to be a difference between "in general" and "specifically"



Not sure what you're relating this to..... could you expand? :nice1

[Jo Jo]

This obviously depends on the organisation. My husband recently applied for promotion, there were a few vacancies but they were told a certain percentage of posts had to be for women and ethnic minorities. As there were less applicants than the allocated spaces for these posts it meant every woman regardles of suitablilty was granted promotion. There were several white males who weren't given the oportunity (although more than capable) because the were white males.

Racism and dicrimination goes on in all employers it's just if it's againts a white male it's not counted.

Your husband's employer was acting illegally: positive discrimination is illegal in the UK. White men are as protected by the Race Relations Act and Sex Discrimination Act as anyone else.

Unfortunately, some employers confuse positive action* (which is allowed) with positive discrimination.

If someone is discriminated against in the workplace or when applying for a job, then they should take it up with the employer, and it is advisable to take legal advice, and it may be possible to take the employer to an Employment Tribunal.

ACAS runs a helpline for people who are involved in employment disputes or who are seeking information on employment rights; details of the helpline can be found here (http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2042). NB you don't have to be a member of a union to get advice from ACAS.

More information about what you can do if you are discriminated on the grounds of your ethnicity can be found here (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ResolvingWorkplaceDisputes/DiscriminationAtWork/DG_10026667), and if you are discriminated against on the grounds of your sex here (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ResolvingWorkplaceDisputes/DiscriminationAtWork/DG_10026665).

*Positive action is allowed but only in certain circumstances. For example, it is only allowed if a specific racial group or gender is badly under-represented among those doing particular work or filling particular posts in an employer's workforce. However, positive action only allows employers to offer additional training to a specific group of people and to encourage specific groups of people to apply for posts (but they can't ban other groups from applying - that is illegal). It does not allow employers to discriminate in favour of a certain ethnic group or gender when choosing people to do a job - that is illegal.

Finally, there are some very specific circumstances where it is okay to discriminate on the grounds of ethnic group or sex, for example acting jobs where you can specify male/ female actors and actors of a certain ethnic group for a role.

PS Sorry - I realise this post hasn't got much (anything?) to do with the OP. :o But as positive discrimination in the UK had been mentioned a couple of times in this thread I wanted to let people know what their rights are.

[Kanga]

Very interesting post JoJo :) :)

[dusk]

Not sure what you're relating this to..... could you expand? :nice1
the post above mine :p

[sunray]

Lol, you cut out my the part where I said in some cases there is positive discrimination! Please don't quote me out of context!

Like I said, I don't think Paul or my point was regarding racism anyway, it was just highlighting that being white and male is 'generally' a better demorgraphic than any other, for getting ahead in the UK.

Agreed Dusk, think we should move on with this thread...

I quoted the part where you said "being a white male in the UK is by far the best demographic to be in, to get ahead" as I personally don't agree with it. I gave an example of why I don't agree with it, I am entitled to my opinion due to my experiences like everyone else.
:exit

[AlastairUK]

Try positive discrimination...the last thing you want to be to get ahead these days in the UK is a white male....

That's clearly a load of rubbish. If you're a white male in the UK then you've got a head start above everyone. As a white male living in the UK, I can categorically say I have never been discriminated against on a single occasion in my life (all 36 years of it).

[broadsword08]

well i am just pleased i cant get the guardian, daily mail or any other uk newspaper here in NZ!

[dusk]

...apart form online of course ;)

[dharder]

well i am just pleased i cant get the guardian, daily mail or any other uk newspaper here in NZ!

What, they MADE you get them in the UK? :)

Daniela

[enb]

Originally Posted by Scotty69 View Post
..... I have heard that racism is worse in the south Island more than the North, I don't know what truth is in this.

IMHO this is true, coming from someone who has lived on both islands. In general, it appears to get worse/more obvious the further south one travels. This is potentially because there are fewer Maori and non white immigrants.

[veronica]

living in Chch I personally seem to have missed all the racial tension that exists here!!!
I have heard of incidents of racism and assault from the ethnic culture to people of other races, especially towards the asians., and I have heard several occasions where people of european descent have been physically assulted by the ethnic people but none the other way round. There is resentment to individual people because of their antisocial and criminal behaviour, regardless of colour or culture, unfortunately looking at the prison stats it shows that some groups are over represented. this does, understandably, lead people to generalise. The only incident we have had at the backpackers was one of our longstayers being mugged on his way to work at the pub, it was by 2 maori or pacific islanders.

I am against racism but I am also against "reverse racism" too and there are plenty of examples of that about as well.

As for the suicide stats mentioned in the original post I know of none in the group of people that I socialise with or have business dealings.

I wish the guys from the original post well on their return and would ask them to post again after being back home for 6 months to give us an update as to how they are getting on.

[Mick&Martina]

Have to admit this does worry me slightly!! We have three boys and obviously don't want to think they may end in the same situation. I guess you just have to HOPE that you bring your children up to know to talk about their problems before it comes to that. Come to think of it there actually isn't that much for teenagers to do around here...

Are these statistics limited to one island or across the whole of NZ?

[winka]

Well this is a very difficult. We are going back and taking a huge loss . The reasons are many. We love NZ as a place to visit ,but living here is dull beyond belief .Standards are low and schools are not challenging (both teachers , I no longer teach). People have no zest. The switched of nature is frustrating. Earnings are pathetic. Far to many people here are in poverty. Racism is worse than Uk. We visited 8 times over 12 yrs and still the true nature of the place eluded us. My best friend is a kiwi that lives in Holland. He said he would rather die than come back here and thought we were mad for coming here.
I love the weather and the coast line . But really what else is there. No wonder the kids are all on drugs and topping themselves. I wanted to do the five yrs and get the passport. Oh well.
I was in the center of Auckland last night and a woman came up to me and said "do you want a good time" I said "yes" . she gave me a ticket to Australia.


Cheers Gary...close the door on the way out.

Ps I really do love your post..so many stereotypes,assumptions and twadlle in so few lines,quite an emotive post:wah

[Scorpio]

Hiya, I'm new to this forum and have followed some of the posts on your thread. Just wanna wish you good luck in your next move, wherever that may be! :)

[92Immigrant]

We visited 8 times over 12 yrs and still the true nature of the place eluded us.

Some people just FAIL. :laugh

Can't we rename the "Leaving New Zealand" forum to the FAIL forum?

I can't resist this stuff.

Dave.

[IanW99]

Some people just FAIL. :laugh

Can't we rename the "Leaving New Zealand" forum to the FAIL forum?

I can't resist this stuff.

Dave.

May I ask what FAIL stands for? Is it an acronym that isn't common, certainly never seen it used on this forum before (apart from you of course)?

Or are you shouting? If not why the capitals?

If you just trying to imply that someone has failed? Do you really think the only reason someone leaves a country is that they failed?

Did you not leave another country to get to NZ?

Ian

[Arwen]

Well said Ian. :nice1

Dave I hope you don't mind me saying, but I think insinuating that people are failures if they haven't managed to settle here for one reason or another is quite harsh.

Infact I think they are pretty darn courageous to have tried it in the first place. Many 'talk the talk' but few actually 'walk the walk'.

Just my opinion. :)

[kejktfc]

As my Pa always used to say to me when growing up, "its better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all". I have led my life with those words very much in mind, some things have proved fruitful, other not so, but I have certainly learned much using that philosophy.


Good luck in the future to all that find it is not to their liking.


kej

[spudulike]

Some people just FAIL. :laugh

Can't we rename the "Leaving New Zealand" forum to the FAIL forum?

I can't resist this stuff.

Dave.

What a horrible post!

Lots of people try the move and it doesn't work out for many reasons including financial, homesickness, not what they expected etc. This does not make them failures.

I learned alot from my move to NZ - it didn't work for us financially even though we are both professional people. I still love the country but it's not for us, however, the lessons and life experience gained from the time spent there helped me to settle into a new part of the UK and adapt to all sorts of new experiences. We are richer for that opportunity and glad we took it. Might I add we moved there with a child of 18 months and an 8 week old baby which was a huge thing to do. We are in no way failures!

I would suggest you don't stand in judgement - or keep your opinions to yourself!

L

[willsken]

Some people just FAIL. :laugh

Can't we rename the "Leaving New Zealand" forum to the FAIL forum?

I can't resist this stuff.

Dave.

Failures? How so? The courage it takes to make the move in the first place and then on top of that the courage it takes to make the huge decision to say "OK, given it a go, now's the time to admit it's not for us." (For what ever that reason may be) takes so much more courage than the people who make the move and just moan about the inadequacies of NZ, IMHO.

NZ isn't for everyone, moving away from family isn't for everyone. You can't know that though unless you've had the courage to try in the first place.

[dusk]

Dear Dave,

lolcatz speak/netspeeak is not in terribly common usage round here, so if you were aiming for funny you might have needed to warn people first :exit

[Kanga]

So it does mean something? Enlighten me Dusk, please?

[dilanium]

I think he was trying to be funny and liken it to this website: http://failblog.org/

and a sibling site where lolcats speak is seen very often: http://icanhascheezburger.com/

[Arwen]

I'm sorry guys I've looked at both websites, but I FAIL to get the joke. :confused::confused:

[dilanium]

They're both lovely hysterical websites, and I think he was attempting to be funny, but I don't think it worked. *shrug* I was just offering an explanation of what he might be going for.

[Arwen]

Hmmm, you could be right there dilanium. Who knows???

[willsken]

They're both lovely hysterical websites, and I think he was attempting to be funny, but I don't think it worked. *shrug* I was just offering an explanation of what he might be going for.

I think you're probably right.... and I agree those are very funny sites. :nice1 I think Dave got it wrong because ENZ just isn't the place for it. Too much pain involved for people who have had to make those decisions.

[nickydwuk]

Some people just FAIL. :laugh

Can't we rename the "Leaving New Zealand" forum to the FAIL forum?

I can't resist this stuff.

Dave.

I may have taken this out of context but I have recently returned to UK from NZ having left OH and my 2 sons in NZ to sell our property. We don't consider ourselves failures - just people who tried to achieve what we thought we wanted and realised that what we really wanted we had all along. If people are failures for trying something new and realising it is not for them then the world is full of them. You must have a very blinkered view if that is your opinion.

[dusk]

Nicky, if it's any comfort I think the poster was just being flippant...

[92Immigrant]

Folks, everyone FAILs from time to time. Only the other day I wrote a post which I considered amusing, but it caused offence, so, I FAILed.

There are three certainties in life, Taxes, Death, and FAIL:)

Dave.

[Arwen]

Just out of interest Dave. Is this anything to do with the FAIL website that dilanium mentioned????

[92Immigrant]

Just out of interest Dave. Is this anything to do with the FAIL website that dilanium mentioned????

Yes, they have some excellent examples.

Dave.

[winka]

Definitely people who make the move I tip my hat to and everyone has there reasons for moving on etc.

However the original post in this thread IS a complete fail and the guy who wrote it was as bitter as a lemon,I would have run red lights taking him to the airport and seeing him off.

[wellywally]

He's no more a failure than anyone who left one country to come to another.

[JandM]

It sounds as though people are telling us that this talk of 'FAIL' in capital letters is a catch-phrase from a jokey website. Lots of members have been taking the original 'fail' remark at face value and getting quite offended, not realizing that the person saying it was being funny, had we but known it.

[ellenmelon]

It sounds as though people are telling us that this talk of 'FAIL' in capital letters is a catch-phrase from a jokey website. Lots of members have been taking the original 'fail' remark at face value and getting quite offended, not realizing that the person saying it was being funny, had we but known it.

Pretty much! It's definately a flavour of humour that you get or you don't but doesn't mean they're not funny. So I got what 92Immigrant was saying. There are some very funny LOLCat/FAIL macro's about!

[garyanimal]

this was published today in the paper and you can check out the report on the OECD website. it is a current report/survey. seems they are topping themselves in greater numbers than elsewhere. Health is also way down for a developed country. TB infections are also high.
"OECD report critical of NZ child welfare spending
Home » News » National
Wed, 2 Sep 2009
News: National
The New Zealand government is spending considerably less on child welfare than other OECD countries , a new report says.

The report, Doing Better for Children, was the first time the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) had reported on child well-being within its 30 member countries.

It identified New Zealand's biggest shortfall as its limited spending on young children (aged five and under), which was less than half the OECD average .

New Zealand was also struggling in terms of health, with the highest youth suicide rate in the OECD and an above-average child mortality rate.

Children lived in poor material conditions, average family incomes were low by OECD standards and child poverty rates were high.

While children had high rates of educational achievement, there were large gaps between top and bottom performers.

Immunisation rates for measles were the second-worst in the OECD, and for whooping cough, the fifth-worst.

The report said the government should spend considerably more on younger, disadvantaged children and make sure high rates of spending on older children met the needs of the disadvantaged.

France, Germany, Britain and Belgium spent the most on children while Switzerland, Ireland, Australia and Italy spent the least, the Associated Press reported.

Despite spending more than the OECD average on children, the United States and Britain both had high teenage pregnancy rates.

The US was among the worst countries in terms of infant mortality and child poverty and Britain's underage drinking rates were the worst in the OECD.

OECD Secretary General Angel Gurria acknowledged that the global financial downturn had squeezed public budgets around the world, Agence France Presse reported.

"But any short-term savings on spending on children's education and health would have major long-term costs for society," he warned.

Okay UK did not do so well either, So somewhere in Europe for me.

[Arwen]

This is getting soooooo old now, but where in the above report has your flippant remark (below) been validated???

It says nothing about children being so bored here in NZ that they feel the need to kill themselves, which is what you were suggesting in your OP????




But really what else is there. No wonder the kids are all on drugs and topping themselves.

[garyanimal]

this is the line from the report
New Zealand was also struggling in terms of health, with the highest youth suicide rate in the OECD and an above-average child mortality rate.

Highest youth suicide rate in the OECD.

[garyanimal]

its about 14 lines from the top.

[Ally Bally Bee]

I believe the same report says the UK is the worst for drinking, drugs and teen pregnancies.
I know where I would prefer to be and it sure ain't in the UK. When I have kids I want them to be brought up down here where there are plenty of opportunities for them as they grow up.

[garyanimal]

I will not live in the UK either, but settle somewhere in europe.

[Wooly_Cow]

Gary animal,

We all need to be careful of using statistics the way a drunk uses a lamp post - for support rather than illumination

Although New Zealand has a moderately high rate of suicide by some international comparisons, it has dropped by approximately 19% since its peak in 1998. This is encouraging and gives us some indication that the efforts that have been made in the suicide prevention area have been effective. New Zealand now has a well developed programme of activities in a range of sectors across the country

Making international comparisons isn’t necessarily useful because countries have different standards in ascertaining when a death is a suicide. Therefore, caution is urged when making international comparisons as the data are not robust.

The causes of suicide are broad and complex. Many factors have been found to be associated with suicide, such as being of low socio-economic status, coming from an abusive family background, experiencing a recent stressful life event and experiencing issues relating to sexual identity. Suicidal behaviours and the factors that are associated with them are most commonly linked to mental health problems. Therefore, the presence of a mental health problem, particularly depression, is the single biggest risk factor for displaying suicidal behaviour.

Clearly New Zealand has issues associated with many of these factors, to which I would add high levels of recreational so called 'soft' drug use which some studies have shown lead to paranoia and depression.

We all need to be aware of the factors that lead to depression, mental health problems and suicide and address them for ourselves, our family and loved ones and friends, and where possible throughout our communities. They are NOT a New Zealand problem but rather a global one and they ARE something we can all do something about.

[sasvanb]

The stats do appear worrying (and yes there are worrying stats from many countries in the world, but we are discussing NZ right?)...

I have been really shocked and deeply worried by what appears to be a higher rate of child death by maltreatment in NZ. I suppose I do tend to compare population size wise with my home country of Scotland. I never used to hear of this type of thing there anything like as frequently as here (not even in the whole of UK i would say).

Some links of interest?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/blogs/frontline/2780822/No-place-to-raise-children

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2733783/Police-investigate-Kaitaia-childs-death

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/national/2811316/Murder-charge-over-childs-death

I could probably go on with those links but its just too depressing.

Below, I believe, is the original findings from UNICEF (2003) which places NZ as having third highest incidence of child death by maltreatment (someone please correct me if I am wrong):

http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/repcard5e.pdf

I am not trying to say this is not a worldwide problem (because it is, and I think the report above highlights that better than I can). However, IMHO (perhaps backed up a bit by the links provided) there does seem to be a significant problem in NZ...? Now I didn't expect NZ to be a utopia when I came here, but neither did I expect to hear the kind of stories (links above) that I hear on a fairly regular basis here.

Just putting it out there... if anything the higher the awareness, the better, regardless of where you are in the world. Let's face it, it's just not acceptable anywhere. Full stop.

[Arwen]

this is the line from the report
New Zealand was also struggling in terms of health, with the highest youth suicide rate in the OECD and an above-average child mortality rate.

Highest youth suicide rate in the OECD.

Yes I realise there is a terribly high incidence of youth suicide, but you flippantly suggested it was because you thought, like you, they were bored and had nothing better to do here in NZ, which is b%*#dy ridiculous!!!!

Anyway I have no interest in going back over that debate again.

[Ngeru]

The stats do appear worrying (and yes there are worrying stats from many countries in the world, but we are discussing NZ right?)...

An excellent point, it always amuses me when folks invalidate an argument by saying it is worse elsewhere. It's a fact NZ has a huge problem with Child Welfare.

And for all the talk and reports that tell is this is so, it doesn't seem to get any better. This past few months there has been a wave of cases in the news.

A Half Year of Hell in New Zealand:

http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/keeping-mum/2009/8/21/half-year-hell-new-zealand/?c_id=6

[sasvanb]

Thank you for highlighting that blog link Ngeru. I knew I wasn't imagining it...

Terribly terribly sad, and deeply concerning. :(