[Sheldon]

I am still very new to this forum, but I must say that I have found it very informative, and the people that contribute are very friendly, and helpful. I have read quite a few posts from people who have left for New Zealand, and then returned home. Most of these seem to be people that are from the UK (probably because most people on this forum are from the UK!). It has been quite interesting for me because it made me examine my reasons for wanting to leave South Africa and go to New Zealand, and in many ways they are similar, but in other ways they are in complete contrast with the reasons why British people leave the UK! Just thought I would share a few....

1. Weather - New Zealand has better weather than the UK, and this is a drawcard. Not so for us South Africans. Today, less than a month from the winter solstice, it's a sunny 24 degrees in Pietermaritzburg!

2. Housing - from what I can gather, people want to live in bigger houses with more privacy. The average South African will live in a smaller, less private house in NZ.

3. Crime. It seems like many UK people are concerned about NZ crime. As a South African, where we have the highest murder rate in the world (55 a day), I say crime. What crime!

4. Lifestyle - the ability to enjoy the great outdoors. A big improvement awaits the average Brit. To the average South African, apart from Snow Boarding and sheep shearing :) we can do what most Kiwis do in terms of sport and outdoor activities, although the increased lawlessness in South Africa is affecting our ability to do this,.

5. The matter of choice and going back. For many British people, this is a lifestyle choice, and they know that they can go back to a fairly normal life in Blighty if need be (finances permitting). For many South Africans, this is a decision that is made for them, either when they, or a family member are victims of violent crime, or when they have children, and realise that to stay in South Africa is (almost) not even an option to consider. I fall into this category. A move to New Zealand would be borne out of necessity more than anything else.

I have deliberately generalised here, in order to create a bit of debate, so feel free to disagree with me.

[andrewp]

...I have deliberately generalised here, in order to create a bit of debate, so feel free to disagree with me.

I wish I could disagree, but sitting here freezing my butt off dreaming of those lovely warm winter's days in PMB make it difficult. But hey, it's still all worth it.

:nice1

[Georgebulldog]

Great post
I have met a few SA since I've been here & do not know how they (you) live from day to day, scared the heebie jeebies out fo me
I hope NZ has all you need :)

[Sheldon]

I wish I could disagree, but sitting here freezing my butt off dreaming of those lovely warm winter's days in PMB make it difficult. But hey, it's still all worth it.

:nice1

It's still single digits at night so we freeze our butts off, and we don't have heat pumps! Still, those Maritzburg autumn days are always amazing!

[Sheldon]

Great post
I have met a few SA since I've been here & do not know how they (you) live from day to day, scared the heebie jeebies out fo me
I hope NZ has all you need :)


Basically all I need is a "normal" society to live in and raise a family. Life here is not normal. Living behind electric fences is not normal. Being car-jacked at gun point, surviving and being told "you were lucky" is not normal. A president who sings "Bring me my machine gun" is not normal. A president who believes that showering after unprotected sex with an HIV positive woman will reduce his risk of contracting AIDS is not normal. Give me normal, and give me boring. I can handle that, even when it comes with a cold house!

[RJLink]

Thanks for sharing the South African perspective. Speaking on behalf of Americans, I don't think many are aware of the deteriorating crime situation in SA and how it may be putting pressure on people to leave. Certainly emigrating to NZ from the US is mostly a lifestyle choice, regardless of whatever complaints we may have about particular conditions there. I think the things NZ offers can be had in various parts of the States, but not all together in the same package, as is possible here.

[Susan2502]

From one South African to another :)

Thank you for your post Sheldon. I agree totally with your "normal" remarks.

Its also not normal for your 10 year old to have to check whether you've locked up properly at night!! They are SO young and have to worry about that!! My 2 year old will hopefully never know that, and probably be the first to get a kiwi accent! We are hoping to be in NZ before the 2010 world cup.

[Sheldon]

Thanks for sharing the South African perspective. Speaking on behalf of Americans, I don't think many are aware of the deteriorating crime situation in SA and how it may be putting pressure on people to leave. Certainly emigrating to NZ from the US is mostly a lifestyle choice, regardless of whatever complaints we may have about particular conditions there. I think the things NZ offers can be had in various parts of the States, but not all together in the same package, as is possible here.

I agree - travelled in the States a few years back. It really is the world in one country, but like you say things are far apart. I guess California could come close to NZ in some respects in terms of the "great outdoor" package. The World is slowly wising up to the situation in South Africa. I think that people in the UK are more aware of it though. Most people thought we would live happily ever after in 1994, but the fairy tale is over!

[Sheldon]

Couldn't agree more Susan. I look into my little boys eyes sometimes, and I ask myself if I am being a responsible parent by continuing to stay here. Our visit to NZ last year was a huge eye opener, especially for my wife. What struck us most was everything that we assumed to be normal was in fact abnormal! It was like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders for 4 weeks. The weight returned when I walked through passport control in Johannesburg to be greeted with a grunt by a surly woman that stamped me in. No welcome home, just rude arrogance. This in contrast to the friendly man in Christchurch who stamped us out and wanted to chat about my son looking like a future Springbok.

[Francoise]

I agree so much with your comments about the difference at customs/passport control in the two countries. We experienced exactly the same. I agree 110% with all your comments about 'normal' - we just don't know what normal is here anymore.

That's a big thing I've noticed on a lot of the forums - especially with most forumites being ex UK or ex USA - the South African perspective is soooooo different. Someone said it earlier, we can put up with a cold house in NZ if it means living a 'normal' life, something we are never going to see in South Africa again, at least not in my life time.

We cannot wait to get back (activated our PR visas in Feb this year) - hopefully within the next couple of months or so.

Cheers
Francoise

[Sheldon]

Glad to know that I'm not alone with my observations! Good luck with the move - you're doing the right thing!

[johanpet]

Good post Sheldon and we agree with everything -

This is also why we want to move to NZ from SA (Durban)

We will miss the weather but I think we will gain more than what we lose.

[Sheldon]

Thanks Johan! I won't miss the weather from December to March! Hey at least we will still be able to watch the Sharks and the Boks. Not that that is necessarily a good thing!

[Bergita]

We've been here (from Cape Town, SA) for nearly 18 months. I've said these things before, but I guess it's worth a repeat. Our lives have completely changed in ways we would never have expected. The stress of day to day life in South Africa, the constant looking over your shoulder, checking and double-checking the locks on the doors, never letting your child let go of your hand, all of those things take a huge toll on your personality. I realise now that I was mostly grumpy, not at all playful and quite emotionless.

After a few months of being in NZ, I started to have some perspective. I found we spent more time together as a family, playing games, talking nonsense, just having fun. I cook every night now, and I enjoy doing it. My daughter has this amazing confidence and is so bright and lively. It's like a shadow was over our lives and now it has been lifted and we can see further, and we like what we see. It's hard to explain, especially to people who don't come from a country in crisis. South Africa is not the only one, I have spoken to other immigrants from other scary places who feel the same way.

I got an email from a friend last Thursday telling me about her brother-in-law who was stabbed in the chest while out jogging in Cape Town. He bled to death in front of police. The profit for the criminal - a cellphone. You hear about these things all the time in SA, some closer to home than others, all of them enough to make your heart bleed, and so eventually you harden up. And it's not good to be hard, it's not good for anyone, it's especially not good in a family with a young child. What lessons would she have learned had we stayed? What level of cynicism would she have reached?

I guess I'm preaching to the converted here, but really, words can't express how happy we are here, how happy we are to know for sure we don't have to leave. We've found New Zealand to be ridiculously low in crime, the population on the whole is extremely trusting and open and friendly, racism exists but is on a totally different level than the hatred that exists in SA. Quitting while I'm ahead...

[ourquest]

Hey Sheldon,
I would have to agree with your general sentiments and comparisons with SA, but I am always of the opinion that you should just adapt, integrate and embrace the new culture almost as you would if you had always lived in NZ.

Having taken that approach ourselves I would say that those aspects you mention (and perceive might be an issue) become far less important and you live looking forward, not backwards.

As an example, your new house will be just that...new (to you). You'll enjoy it, the new surroundings and the vast number of positive little differences in your everyday life compared to where you are coming from.

As a personal example, I toured Namibia ten times between 1991 and 2006, as well as falling in love with the Karoo and nearly buying a farm there in 2005. Now you've probably guessed that I like deserts and big sky country, and more relevantly that NZ does not offer those. I am aware of that, but I do not focus on what I have lost but what I have gained, which in purely landscape terms includes volcanoes, a very dramatic coastline, endless (beautiful) velvet green rolling hills and farmland and and.

If you superimpose the safety, carefree nature and relaxed pace of life on top of what you are gaining, then this can be your paradise if these things are important to you.

I would suggest recognising those things you going to miss NOW and appreciating them in the present moment, and this will set you up to appreciate NZ in the present moment once you arrive ready to settle. Having said that, I also suggest making some effort to adapt before you get here, just in small ways. Learn some Maori, study the layout of the country so there is more familiarity (which will be helped by you having visited already), and focus mainly on those aspects of NZ which are bringing you here, and which are aspects which we both understand are potential deal-breakers in SA.

questy.

[Sheldon]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. Ourquest you make some great points. South Africa is a great country but it is very violent and there is real hatred between people groups. New zealand presents such a contrast. Hence it's appeal for the likes of me.

[tmprince]

I am South African and what has motivated me to immigrate is the utter disregard of law and order not only on violent crime but the general day to day type things where EVERYBODY black white yellow brown you name it drives like utter maniacs (me included)
99% of bussiness deals are made by greasing some ones palm, jobs are all affirmitive action and youngsters that where born after "appartheid" are shafted because of thier skin colour. Justice means if you pay a officer of the court or police man your docket will disapere or they will unlock the jail gate for you. If you are had up for fraud you can have high blood pressure and be let out because you are "terminal" and your fraud was directly related to the now president of the country,just to be seen and photographed enjoying a game of golf with your pals. if you are hijacked or robbed it's easier to kill you and torture you rather than to just take what you want and go and where 60% of the crime perpetrated has links to police .
NZ had a taste of South Africa on an expose aired on Tv recently and many have commented on the fact that they thought South Africans exagerated until they saw this overseas production.
So yes for my children I need to be safe!

[Fern01]

Some interesting posts from the SA. folk. Its a real pity about SA, it's a country that I used to be intrigued about,( not for the apartheid I found that appalling.) I first started taking notice because of the Springboks rugby team when they were touring here many years ago. but I'm only too pleased to have been born and bred in N.Z. God's Own.