Philip10
4th June 2009, 11:29 AM
Unless you are a child, as N Z has the worst death and injury rates for children in the developed world. (NZ Paediatric Society Jun 09) Still a least some adults can find peace. :(
Nathan
4th June 2009, 12:17 PM
Unless you are a child, as N Z has the worst death and injury rates for children in the developed world. (NZ Paediatric Society Jun 09) Still a least some adults can find peace. :(
Exactly!
Retrieved from: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10576386 on 4.Jun.’09
NZ has worst rates of child death in developed world, MPs told
NEW 9:45AM Thursday Jun 04, 2009
New Zealand has the worst rates of child death and injury from preventable causes in the developed world, the Paediatric Society has told a parliamentary committee.
Starship children's hospital paediatric surgeon James Hamill said a third of all child deaths were due to trauma but the only paediatric intensive care unit in New Zealand was at Starship in Auckland, The Dominion Post reported.
Dr Hamill was giving evidence at a health select committee hearing yesterday.
He said that while it wasn't possible for every hospital to have a paediatric intensive care unit, national standards for dealing with child trauma victims and better data collection were needed.
Capital and Coast paediatric surgeon Brendon Bowkett said hospitals were being squeezed by epidemics of infectious diseases associated with poverty and overcrowding.
That led to the cancellation of non-urgent operations for grommets, tonsils and hernias that all children should be able to receive.
Exactly!
Retrieved from: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10576386 on 4.Jun.’09
NZ has worst rates of child death in developed world, MPs told
NEW 9:45AM Thursday Jun 04, 2009
New Zealand has the worst rates of child death and injury from preventable causes in the developed world, the Paediatric Society has told a parliamentary committee.
Starship children's hospital paediatric surgeon James Hamill said a third of all child deaths were due to trauma but the only paediatric intensive care unit in New Zealand was at Starship in Auckland, The Dominion Post reported.
Dr Hamill was giving evidence at a health select committee hearing yesterday.
He said that while it wasn't possible for every hospital to have a paediatric intensive care unit, national standards for dealing with child trauma victims and better data collection were needed.
Capital and Coast paediatric surgeon Brendon Bowkett said hospitals were being squeezed by epidemics of infectious diseases associated with poverty and overcrowding.
That led to the cancellation of non-urgent operations for grommets, tonsils and hernias that all children should be able to receive.
dharder
4th June 2009, 12:34 PM
Well that's turned this positive 'happy' thread sour. :uhoh
But is it not important to point out, particularly in this context, that there are lots of children (in particular) who are not experiencing a peaceful NZ?
Personally, I think it matters greatly to remind people (this is in general, not necessarily restricted to this forum) not to sit back and relax on an idea of peaceful bliss when the reality for many is very different.
Daniela
But is it not important to point out, particularly in this context, that there are lots of children (in particular) who are not experiencing a peaceful NZ?
Personally, I think it matters greatly to remind people (this is in general, not necessarily restricted to this forum) not to sit back and relax on an idea of peaceful bliss when the reality for many is very different.
Daniela
Arwen
4th June 2009, 12:42 PM
But is it not important to point out, particularly in this context, that there are lots of children (in particular) who are not experiencing a peaceful NZ?
Personally, I think it matters greatly to remind people (this is in general, not necessarily restricted to this forum) not to sit back and relax on an idea of peaceful bliss when the reality for many is very different.
Daniela
Of course it's important!!! It just took my breath away, that's all.
Everyone was happily posting positive threads, and then those two postings followed.
I have read the newspaper article that Nathan posted, and was truely shocked. I had no idea child abuse was as bad as that here. :(
Maybe we could have discussed something like this on a separate thread??
Personally, I think it matters greatly to remind people (this is in general, not necessarily restricted to this forum) not to sit back and relax on an idea of peaceful bliss when the reality for many is very different.
Daniela
Of course it's important!!! It just took my breath away, that's all.
Everyone was happily posting positive threads, and then those two postings followed.
I have read the newspaper article that Nathan posted, and was truely shocked. I had no idea child abuse was as bad as that here. :(
Maybe we could have discussed something like this on a separate thread??
IanW99
4th June 2009, 01:00 PM
...
Maybe we could have discussed something like this on a separate thread??
Just in case this is confusing to members, this topic has been split from another thread discussing the latest Global Peace index ratings for 2009 see New Zealand named world's most peaceful nation (http://www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=25328) for details.
Ian
Maybe we could have discussed something like this on a separate thread??
Just in case this is confusing to members, this topic has been split from another thread discussing the latest Global Peace index ratings for 2009 see New Zealand named world's most peaceful nation (http://www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=25328) for details.
Ian
Philip10
4th June 2009, 01:30 PM
Moving the threat doesn’t move the problem. Sorry to sound a soap boxish on this one, but when one works with children 5 days a week and experiences the results of so much child abuse and neglect, one gets a little rankled with surveys suggesting that NZ is the most peaceful place in the world so we can all pat ourselves on the back say how wonderful NZ (especially compared to other countries) and quietly forget what we are doing to our children. I feel as the Paediatric Society’s report came out to day, its mention was pertinent to the original thread. Children’s mental health is everyone’s business. Why is that this forum can’t tolerate anything said negative about NZ. I think NZ is a great country, I just want to do my bit to make sure it gets better for everyone.
Alan
4th June 2009, 01:36 PM
Philip, I think it isn't the fact that we in NZ have problems and issues (hasn't everywhere) but likewise when someone posts something positive we, me included, need to make sure we don't takeover the thread and turn it another way.
Children are our future and knowing someone in the child protection police team and hearing some stories is frightening and stomach churning.
Children are our future and knowing someone in the child protection police team and hearing some stories is frightening and stomach churning.
dusk
4th June 2009, 01:46 PM
Actually I think its a topic of discussion that merited it's own thread, it has more prominence this way. /2c
ourquest
4th June 2009, 01:52 PM
Why is that this forum can’t tolerate anything said negative about NZ.
I am afraid you are exaggerating. Not only are you reacting with a categorical statement that the forum cannot tolerate negativity, you have also openly stated (with the "pat on the back" comment) that you have not tolerated that something positive was said in the first place. Glass houses. Stones. Crash.
Whilst nobody is about to condone child abuse here, your quoted statistics do not prove or even suggest that MOST children cannot find peace in New Zealand, as your opening sentence in your OP emotively suggests.
If you wish to improve New Zealand by making others aware of the plight of a specific group then making emotionally-charged sweeping statements is not going to achieve your goal. It is only going to make other members disregard your opinions, hence the reaction you received.
I am afraid you are exaggerating. Not only are you reacting with a categorical statement that the forum cannot tolerate negativity, you have also openly stated (with the "pat on the back" comment) that you have not tolerated that something positive was said in the first place. Glass houses. Stones. Crash.
Whilst nobody is about to condone child abuse here, your quoted statistics do not prove or even suggest that MOST children cannot find peace in New Zealand, as your opening sentence in your OP emotively suggests.
If you wish to improve New Zealand by making others aware of the plight of a specific group then making emotionally-charged sweeping statements is not going to achieve your goal. It is only going to make other members disregard your opinions, hence the reaction you received.
dharder
4th June 2009, 02:32 PM
but likewise when someone posts something positive we, me included, need to make sure we don't takeover the thread and turn it another way.
I understand what you mean, but I do think it is important to not simply have a whole positive thread about one thing when it actually isn't the reality for many, in particulr non-white, not middle class, not educated people/children.
In this particular case, I think pointing out the abuse rate was very relevant to the topic. Had someone said, "yeah, great, peaceful country, but there is no insulation in the houses," that would have been different, imo. But the death rate of children and the abuse does very much belong in a discussion about what a peaceful nation this is...
But I am also happy to read a separate thread on this, as I think it is important.
Daniela
I understand what you mean, but I do think it is important to not simply have a whole positive thread about one thing when it actually isn't the reality for many, in particulr non-white, not middle class, not educated people/children.
In this particular case, I think pointing out the abuse rate was very relevant to the topic. Had someone said, "yeah, great, peaceful country, but there is no insulation in the houses," that would have been different, imo. But the death rate of children and the abuse does very much belong in a discussion about what a peaceful nation this is...
But I am also happy to read a separate thread on this, as I think it is important.
Daniela
GreenMeansGo
4th June 2009, 03:33 PM
what is being done in nz to address the child abuse issue? is this new information and is it even on the government's radar?
dharder
4th June 2009, 03:42 PM
what is being done in nz to address the child abuse issue? is this new information and is it even on the government's radar?
No, it is not new information. It's been out there for a while, and I remember disussing this with my OH long before we moved here.
It is (or at least it was...) on the governments radar, but it is not an easy topic to deal with. Most (of course by no means all) people directly affected by domestic violence, child abuse, assault and other violence against children and partners are not white. IMO, supporeted by what I have read in the way of demographic statistics, it is clearly divided along socio-ecomonic lines, and any solution to the problem will have to include looking at how is dealt with the ethnic groups most affected by crime, poverty, health issues, etc.
As opposed to the oft repeated opinion on this forum that there is no racism in NZ (or at least not worse than 'everywhere else'), access to jobs, decent housing, health care, education is cleary divided along racial lines in this country. Much clearer than I had expected before I moved here, and much clearer than I have experienced this in the UK.
The rate of violence, neglect and abuse is part of a life that usually remains well out of the experience (with exceptions, obviously) of the average white English speaking immigrant with money for a downpayment and qualifications to enable him/her to get a job.
Off soap box for now,
Daniela
No, it is not new information. It's been out there for a while, and I remember disussing this with my OH long before we moved here.
It is (or at least it was...) on the governments radar, but it is not an easy topic to deal with. Most (of course by no means all) people directly affected by domestic violence, child abuse, assault and other violence against children and partners are not white. IMO, supporeted by what I have read in the way of demographic statistics, it is clearly divided along socio-ecomonic lines, and any solution to the problem will have to include looking at how is dealt with the ethnic groups most affected by crime, poverty, health issues, etc.
As opposed to the oft repeated opinion on this forum that there is no racism in NZ (or at least not worse than 'everywhere else'), access to jobs, decent housing, health care, education is cleary divided along racial lines in this country. Much clearer than I had expected before I moved here, and much clearer than I have experienced this in the UK.
The rate of violence, neglect and abuse is part of a life that usually remains well out of the experience (with exceptions, obviously) of the average white English speaking immigrant with money for a downpayment and qualifications to enable him/her to get a job.
Off soap box for now,
Daniela
Arwen
4th June 2009, 03:55 PM
Moving the threat doesn’t move the problem.
Of course moving the thread doesn't move the problem, nobody here is trying to 'play down' the importance of this topic.
As Dusk put it:
Actually I think its a topic of discussion that merited it's own thread, it has more prominence this way. /2c
Well said Dusk. :nice1
Of course moving the thread doesn't move the problem, nobody here is trying to 'play down' the importance of this topic.
As Dusk put it:
Actually I think its a topic of discussion that merited it's own thread, it has more prominence this way. /2c
Well said Dusk. :nice1
Arwen
4th June 2009, 04:11 PM
As opposed to the oft repeated opinion on this forum that there is no racism in NZ
I haven't read any posts where someone has claimed there is 'NO' racism in NZ, just that they haven't encountered any. Where there are people there is often found (unfortunately), racisim, sexism, ageism, ism, ism, ism etc.
access to jobs, decent housing, health care, education is cleary divided along racial lines in this country. Much clearer than I had expected before I moved here, and much clearer than I have experienced this in the UK.
Have you got information to back that up? I would be genuinely interested to read it.
The rate of violence, neglect and abuse is part of a life that usually remains well out of the experience (with exceptions, obviously) of the average white English speaking immigrant with money for a downpayment and qualifications to enable him/her to get a job.
I admit that I knew it was bad here in NZ, but not as bad as the two earlier posts pointed out. I'm sure there are a lot of untold 'horror' stories of abuse in many other countries that never even see the light of day, let alone get recorded as statistics. You allude to the fact that if you are a white English speaking immigrant with money, house and job then you will be blissfully unaware of such horrors. That's ridiculous. Plenty of abuse can take place in households containing people just like that!!!!
I haven't read any posts where someone has claimed there is 'NO' racism in NZ, just that they haven't encountered any. Where there are people there is often found (unfortunately), racisim, sexism, ageism, ism, ism, ism etc.
access to jobs, decent housing, health care, education is cleary divided along racial lines in this country. Much clearer than I had expected before I moved here, and much clearer than I have experienced this in the UK.
Have you got information to back that up? I would be genuinely interested to read it.
The rate of violence, neglect and abuse is part of a life that usually remains well out of the experience (with exceptions, obviously) of the average white English speaking immigrant with money for a downpayment and qualifications to enable him/her to get a job.
I admit that I knew it was bad here in NZ, but not as bad as the two earlier posts pointed out. I'm sure there are a lot of untold 'horror' stories of abuse in many other countries that never even see the light of day, let alone get recorded as statistics. You allude to the fact that if you are a white English speaking immigrant with money, house and job then you will be blissfully unaware of such horrors. That's ridiculous. Plenty of abuse can take place in households containing people just like that!!!!
victoria24
4th June 2009, 04:19 PM
In fact in the UK, a large proportion of abuse of all types happens behind closed doors of white middle class families. The fact that the ratio of convictions are low is down to the reluctance of the persons involved as families to report and/or complain. how do i know? a close family member works in the domestic violence unit. the word on the streets is not the same as the word on the stats.
dharder
4th June 2009, 04:33 PM
I haven't read any posts where someone has claimed there is 'NO' racism in NZ, just that they haven't encountered any.
With all due respect, would you mind quoting my entire sentence? I have qualified this.
Have you got information to back that up? I would be genuinely interested to read it.
There is plenty of information out there. Every area, from health over housing to education is clearly separated, and I am at a loss to understand how people fail to see this in their everyday lives.
A health indicator is this: “Child and Youth Health Indicator Handbook” don’t know the link, but google will help. Another is the “Atlas of Socioeconomic Deprivation in NZ”. Other than that, ANY statistics regarding average household income by ethnicity, percentage of people imprisoned by ethnicity, number of people on benefits by ethnicity, number of children leaving school without any qualifications, etc. Asthma rates, overcrowdedness, poorly insulated houses. I could go on (guess I wasn’t entirely off my soapbox there).
Plenty of abuse can take place in households containing people just like that!!!!
Obviously, that is not what I said. I should have made it clearer: the ‘hot spots’ as far as areas go that struggle the most with the above issues (crime, unemployment, etc) are not the areas people with the aforementioned attributes live in (and that seems quite clear, otherwise people wouldn’t be as surprised).
I am very well aware that white English speaking people with jobs and own houses can beat up their children. However, I doubt that the rate of abuse among that demographic is significantly worse in NZ than in other countries like the UK for example. Where you really have the difference in numbers is among the people who are not white middle class.
I don't doubt at all that for the average person immigrating from the UK, the personal experience of a lot of those issues I mentioned is similar to that in the UK. But that doesn't mean that for the country as a whole, it could be worse than in other countries.
Daniela
With all due respect, would you mind quoting my entire sentence? I have qualified this.
Have you got information to back that up? I would be genuinely interested to read it.
There is plenty of information out there. Every area, from health over housing to education is clearly separated, and I am at a loss to understand how people fail to see this in their everyday lives.
A health indicator is this: “Child and Youth Health Indicator Handbook” don’t know the link, but google will help. Another is the “Atlas of Socioeconomic Deprivation in NZ”. Other than that, ANY statistics regarding average household income by ethnicity, percentage of people imprisoned by ethnicity, number of people on benefits by ethnicity, number of children leaving school without any qualifications, etc. Asthma rates, overcrowdedness, poorly insulated houses. I could go on (guess I wasn’t entirely off my soapbox there).
Plenty of abuse can take place in households containing people just like that!!!!
Obviously, that is not what I said. I should have made it clearer: the ‘hot spots’ as far as areas go that struggle the most with the above issues (crime, unemployment, etc) are not the areas people with the aforementioned attributes live in (and that seems quite clear, otherwise people wouldn’t be as surprised).
I am very well aware that white English speaking people with jobs and own houses can beat up their children. However, I doubt that the rate of abuse among that demographic is significantly worse in NZ than in other countries like the UK for example. Where you really have the difference in numbers is among the people who are not white middle class.
I don't doubt at all that for the average person immigrating from the UK, the personal experience of a lot of those issues I mentioned is similar to that in the UK. But that doesn't mean that for the country as a whole, it could be worse than in other countries.
Daniela
Arwen
4th June 2009, 04:37 PM
In fact in the UK, a large proportion of abuse of all types happens behind closed doors of white middle class families. The fact that the ratio of convictions are low is down to the reluctance of the persons involved as families to report and/or complain. how do i know? a close family member works in the domestic violence unit. the word on the streets is not the same as the word on the stats.
My point exactly Mr V. Well put. :nice1
At the end of the day abuse against ANY child, regardless of race or colour is an abhorrent crime, and the perpetrators of such crimes should be severely punished.
My point exactly Mr V. Well put. :nice1
At the end of the day abuse against ANY child, regardless of race or colour is an abhorrent crime, and the perpetrators of such crimes should be severely punished.
GreenMeansGo
4th June 2009, 04:44 PM
Coming from the US state with some of the highest (reported) rates of sexual assault and domestic violence, I am unfortunately aware of many of the convoluted aspects of both identifying, reporting, and improving many of these problems. Unfortunately, no group is immune from these problems.
The biggest bone to pick, for me, anyway, is when the powers that be don't address the issue and try to sweep it all under the rug. Awareness campaigns, early/mandated reporting, treatment for abusers and victims, parenting classes... these are the things I'm wondering about. In addition of course, to addressing disparities in poverty, health care access, etc.
The biggest bone to pick, for me, anyway, is when the powers that be don't address the issue and try to sweep it all under the rug. Awareness campaigns, early/mandated reporting, treatment for abusers and victims, parenting classes... these are the things I'm wondering about. In addition of course, to addressing disparities in poverty, health care access, etc.
Arwen
4th June 2009, 04:50 PM
As opposed to the oft repeated opinion on this forum that there is no racism in NZ (or at least not worse than 'everywhere else'
You clearly stated that some people had posted that there was 'no' racism here????
A health indicator is this: “Child and Youth Health Indicator Handbook” don’t know the link, but google will help. Another is the “Atlas of Socioeconomic Deprivation in NZ”. Other than that, ANY statistics regarding average household income by ethnicity, percentage of people imprisoned by ethnicity, number of people on benefits by ethnicity, number of children leaving school without any qualifications, etc. Asthma rates, overcrowdedness, poorly insulated houses. I could go on (guess I wasn’t entirely off my soapbox there).
Thanks for that, I will look up the information.
I don't doubt at all that for the average person immigrating from the UK, the personal experience of a lot of those issues I mentioned is similar to that in the UK. But that doesn't mean that for the country as a whole, it could be worse than in other countries.
Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say here?? Could you clarify.
You clearly stated that some people had posted that there was 'no' racism here????
A health indicator is this: “Child and Youth Health Indicator Handbook” don’t know the link, but google will help. Another is the “Atlas of Socioeconomic Deprivation in NZ”. Other than that, ANY statistics regarding average household income by ethnicity, percentage of people imprisoned by ethnicity, number of people on benefits by ethnicity, number of children leaving school without any qualifications, etc. Asthma rates, overcrowdedness, poorly insulated houses. I could go on (guess I wasn’t entirely off my soapbox there).
Thanks for that, I will look up the information.
I don't doubt at all that for the average person immigrating from the UK, the personal experience of a lot of those issues I mentioned is similar to that in the UK. But that doesn't mean that for the country as a whole, it could be worse than in other countries.
Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say here?? Could you clarify.
ourquest
4th June 2009, 04:51 PM
people who are not white middle class.
Whilst you remain on your soapbox I will take the liberty of quoting a very small portion of your argument only to point out that your own terminology isn't helping us all get over our racism.
By "not white middle class" I take it you mean upper class asians? Or middle class africans? Perhaps middle class Maori?
Whilst you remain on your soapbox I will take the liberty of quoting a very small portion of your argument only to point out that your own terminology isn't helping us all get over our racism.
By "not white middle class" I take it you mean upper class asians? Or middle class africans? Perhaps middle class Maori?
Kanga
4th June 2009, 04:52 PM
At the end of the day abuse against ANY child, regardless of race or colour is an abhorrent crime, and the perpetrators of such crimes should be severely punished.
Yes Arwen it is and they should, but it's very uncomfortable that in NZ the stats show that you are much more likely to experience child abuse and almost all other violent crime, along with poverty, unemployment, incomplete education ad finitum if you are NOT Pakeha. Ignoring the race issue does NZ a huge disservice.
It's nit picking to point out that some child abuse etc occurs in white middle class families because it demeans the fact that a society where priviledge and safety is drawn along cultural lines has a very big problem. I don't think this is new news for any NZ government/health/education organisation- nothing radical is being said here. It's a massive problem, it exists, acknowledging that it exists doesn't diminish my fondness for NZ or my belief that I can raise my children in peace and happiness there.
Yes Arwen it is and they should, but it's very uncomfortable that in NZ the stats show that you are much more likely to experience child abuse and almost all other violent crime, along with poverty, unemployment, incomplete education ad finitum if you are NOT Pakeha. Ignoring the race issue does NZ a huge disservice.
It's nit picking to point out that some child abuse etc occurs in white middle class families because it demeans the fact that a society where priviledge and safety is drawn along cultural lines has a very big problem. I don't think this is new news for any NZ government/health/education organisation- nothing radical is being said here. It's a massive problem, it exists, acknowledging that it exists doesn't diminish my fondness for NZ or my belief that I can raise my children in peace and happiness there.
willsken
4th June 2009, 04:53 PM
As opposed to the oft repeated opinion on this forum that there is no racism in NZ (or at least not worse than 'everywhere else'), access to jobs, decent housing, health care, education is cleary divided along racial lines in this country. Much clearer than I had expected before I moved here, and much clearer than I have experienced this in the UK.
Daniela
Sorry, but while there was a lot you said I agree with, having worked with deprived kids nearly all my working life, I totally disagree with this statement. Maybe that was your experience in the UK, but in my experience no way!! The difference I find here in NZ, is that people are aware of the child abuse problem and are actively trying to do something about it. Awareness here is huge compared to the “sweep it under the carpet, it isn't happening” attitudes I encountered in the UK.
The point about the poverty in NZ I also disagree with. As I’ve said before, it’s no worse here. Poverty in NZ is much more in your face but it exists to just as big extremes in the UK. We just didn’t have it in our faces because lets be realistic about it, most of us didn’t go near these sink estates and never came into contact with the products of that poverty.
Daniela
Sorry, but while there was a lot you said I agree with, having worked with deprived kids nearly all my working life, I totally disagree with this statement. Maybe that was your experience in the UK, but in my experience no way!! The difference I find here in NZ, is that people are aware of the child abuse problem and are actively trying to do something about it. Awareness here is huge compared to the “sweep it under the carpet, it isn't happening” attitudes I encountered in the UK.
The point about the poverty in NZ I also disagree with. As I’ve said before, it’s no worse here. Poverty in NZ is much more in your face but it exists to just as big extremes in the UK. We just didn’t have it in our faces because lets be realistic about it, most of us didn’t go near these sink estates and never came into contact with the products of that poverty.
Arwen
4th June 2009, 04:57 PM
It's nit picking to point out that some child abuse etc occurs in white middle class families
I'm sorry but I find it 'nit picking' to suggest that abuse is not a problem in these families and only affects 'Maori or Pacific Island families' etc.
Let's just face it. It is a universal problem affecting too many children and NZ, UK, USA or wherever need to get to the core issues and start thrashing out some positive solutions. This shouldn't have to come down to a child's ethnicity.
I'm sorry but I find it 'nit picking' to suggest that abuse is not a problem in these families and only affects 'Maori or Pacific Island families' etc.
Let's just face it. It is a universal problem affecting too many children and NZ, UK, USA or wherever need to get to the core issues and start thrashing out some positive solutions. This shouldn't have to come down to a child's ethnicity.
Kanga
4th June 2009, 05:01 PM
The point about the poverty in NZ I also disagree with. As I’ve said before, it’s no worse here. Poverty in NZ is much more in your face but it exists to just as big extremes in the UK. We just didn’t have it in our faces because lets be realistic about it, most of us didn’t go near these sink estates and never came into contact with the products of that poverty.
I'm not sure I agree that it's no worse than in the Uk (just don't know) but I 100% agree that there's a 'perception of poverty' to consider. (Absolute) Poverty seems more ghettoed in the UK than in NZ and is easier to be unaware of.
I'm not sure I agree that it's no worse than in the Uk (just don't know) but I 100% agree that there's a 'perception of poverty' to consider. (Absolute) Poverty seems more ghettoed in the UK than in NZ and is easier to be unaware of.
Kanga
4th June 2009, 05:04 PM
I'm sorry but I find it 'nit picking' to suggest that abuse is not a problem in these families and only affects 'Maori or Pacific Island families' etc.
Let's just face it. It is a universal problem affecting too many children and NZ, UK, USA or wherever need to get to the core issues and start thrahing out some poistive solutions. This shouldn't have to come down to a child's ethnicity.
But Arwen, nobody is saying it only affects non-Pakeha families. Not at all- just that affects non-Pakeha families incredibly disproportionately. I think it's NZ's biggest challenge- to close the gap- and I sort of believe NZ could do it :)
Let's just face it. It is a universal problem affecting too many children and NZ, UK, USA or wherever need to get to the core issues and start thrahing out some poistive solutions. This shouldn't have to come down to a child's ethnicity.
But Arwen, nobody is saying it only affects non-Pakeha families. Not at all- just that affects non-Pakeha families incredibly disproportionately. I think it's NZ's biggest challenge- to close the gap- and I sort of believe NZ could do it :)
Arwen
4th June 2009, 05:05 PM
But Arwen, nobody is saying it only affects non-Pakeha families. Not at all- just that affects non-Pakeha families incredibly disproportionately. I think it's NZ's biggest challenge- to close the gap- and I sort of believe NZ could do it :)
Here's hoping and praying they do Kanga.
Here's hoping and praying they do Kanga.
Arwen
4th June 2009, 05:14 PM
I think NZ is a great country, I just want to do my bit to make sure it gets better for everyone.
Sorry, just gone back a few posts. Phillip10, I was just interested to know what you are doing to make sure it gets better for everyone???
Sorry, just gone back a few posts. Phillip10, I was just interested to know what you are doing to make sure it gets better for everyone???
dharder
4th June 2009, 05:23 PM
We just didn’t have it in our faces because lets be realistic about it, most of us didn’t go near these sink estates and never came into contact with the products of that poverty.
I had it in my face, and lived in an area very much affected by poverty. And exactly because I have lived in a part of East London very familiar with all those issues, I feel entitled to draw a comparison between the poverty I encountered in the UK and the poverty I see here.
Daniela
I had it in my face, and lived in an area very much affected by poverty. And exactly because I have lived in a part of East London very familiar with all those issues, I feel entitled to draw a comparison between the poverty I encountered in the UK and the poverty I see here.
Daniela
dharder
4th June 2009, 05:27 PM
By "not white middle class" I take it you mean upper class asians? Or middle class africans? Perhaps middle class Maori?
Do you believe that upper class asians or middle class africans in NZ are represented in numbers high enough to make them statistically signficant? Hardly.
I think the term 'white middle class' to refer to a certain demographic is fairly self explanatory and commonly used so that it doesn't need much further explanation.
Daniela
Do you believe that upper class asians or middle class africans in NZ are represented in numbers high enough to make them statistically signficant? Hardly.
I think the term 'white middle class' to refer to a certain demographic is fairly self explanatory and commonly used so that it doesn't need much further explanation.
Daniela
Philip10
4th June 2009, 05:36 PM
There are two points I would like to make, in my personal opinion, firstly I feel it is unhelpful to attempt to mitigate any of NZ problems by stating “compared with the UK, USA etc”. (Noticed I used the word mitigate) e g poverty not as bad compared with………, child abuse is no more prevalent compared with……………. driving standards are not as bad compared with……… I want NZ to be better not compared with.
Secondly in my opinion personal attacks and deliberately misinterpreting postings is also unhelpful. e g “I was so hungry I could eat a horse” will sometimes be replied with “Most people on this forum are disgusted by the quantity and choice of your meals”
Secondly in my opinion personal attacks and deliberately misinterpreting postings is also unhelpful. e g “I was so hungry I could eat a horse” will sometimes be replied with “Most people on this forum are disgusted by the quantity and choice of your meals”
Arwen
4th June 2009, 05:38 PM
There are two points I would like to make, in my personal opinion, firstly I feel it is unhelpful to attempt to mitigate any of NZ problems by stating “compared with the UK, USA etc”. (Noticed I used the word mitigate) e g poverty not as bad compared with………, child abuse is no more prevalent compared with……………. driving standards are not as bad compared with……… I want NZ to be better not compared with.
Secondly in my opinion personal attacks and deliberately misinterpreting postings is also unhelpful. e g “I was so hungry I could eat a horse” will sometimes be replied with “Most people on this forum are disgusted by the quantity and choice of your meals”
I'm sorry but what on earth are you trying to say??????
What 'personal' attacks?????
Secondly in my opinion personal attacks and deliberately misinterpreting postings is also unhelpful. e g “I was so hungry I could eat a horse” will sometimes be replied with “Most people on this forum are disgusted by the quantity and choice of your meals”
I'm sorry but what on earth are you trying to say??????
What 'personal' attacks?????
Moorf
4th June 2009, 05:50 PM
I agree with Willsken - I've never seen such hard-hitting child abuse campaigns in the media as I have in NZ... I personally don't feel it's swept under the carpet at all, thank goodness.
victoria24
4th June 2009, 06:00 PM
my personal attack detector hasn't gone beep..
BkyMonster
4th June 2009, 06:09 PM
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0906/S00041.htm
After reading this article I found the risk factors for NZ child abuse very similar to what I know of as risk factors in US child abuse.
I'd say the main difference between them is swapping out lack of antenatal care (NZ) for uninsured mothers (US). Basically the same thing with slightly different approaches.
I've certainly noticed that there are a lot of free or low cost support programs for child care and women's health care with advertising aimed at the non affluent, non immigrant population (specifically Maori, PI). For instance cervical cancer screening--this is something that in the US, and so here it seems, white women do and minorities avoid. It isn't an insurance issue, but some kind of subtle cultural issue (Planned parenthoods and free clinics of similar vein in the US will do your yearly if you have no insurance). And in the US it isn't talked about or really recognized that there is a race divide IMO, whereas here the advertising makes it clear that there likely is.
I also get the impression that even though prenatal and antenatal care is free to low cost that it is less taken advantage of by non white women. (http://www.nzma.org.nz/journal/118-1216/1489/ probably backs up my casual observation).
Don't have any solutions, just an observation and probably, IMO,has a fair amount to do with the child abuse rate discrepancy along race lines.
I probably went and put too much thought into a post in a thread that will likely get locked but oh well...:exit
After reading this article I found the risk factors for NZ child abuse very similar to what I know of as risk factors in US child abuse.
I'd say the main difference between them is swapping out lack of antenatal care (NZ) for uninsured mothers (US). Basically the same thing with slightly different approaches.
I've certainly noticed that there are a lot of free or low cost support programs for child care and women's health care with advertising aimed at the non affluent, non immigrant population (specifically Maori, PI). For instance cervical cancer screening--this is something that in the US, and so here it seems, white women do and minorities avoid. It isn't an insurance issue, but some kind of subtle cultural issue (Planned parenthoods and free clinics of similar vein in the US will do your yearly if you have no insurance). And in the US it isn't talked about or really recognized that there is a race divide IMO, whereas here the advertising makes it clear that there likely is.
I also get the impression that even though prenatal and antenatal care is free to low cost that it is less taken advantage of by non white women. (http://www.nzma.org.nz/journal/118-1216/1489/ probably backs up my casual observation).
Don't have any solutions, just an observation and probably, IMO,has a fair amount to do with the child abuse rate discrepancy along race lines.
I probably went and put too much thought into a post in a thread that will likely get locked but oh well...:exit
Arwen
4th June 2009, 06:22 PM
A very interesting post Becky. Thanks for that. :nice1
ourquest
4th June 2009, 07:28 PM
I think the term 'white middle class' to refer to a certain demographic is fairly self explanatory and commonly used so that it doesn't need much further explanation.
I'll shelve my previous attempt at sarcasm and try to explain my point in more academic terms.
It shouldn't take much imagination to realise that if you use the term "white middle class" to describe a different group to those allegedly overwhelmingly involved in the child abuse then you are making a racial statement which might not be true.
OK, it might be true that there is separation in terms of the income levels and relative levels of hardship, but any reference to race is very dangerous because statistics or no statistics, it promotes an "us and them" mentality.
I would suggest that, assuming the statistics to be correct, then the majority of the abuse is associated with low income, possible substance abuse and broken families. Since these attributes are present across cultures and will probably go hand in hand with child abuse worldwide across cultures, then it is towards people with these attributes where efforts should be aimed. The possibility that there might be statistically more Maori with these attributes does not mean efforts should be aimed at Maori, but only at people with these attributes irrespective of their ethnicity.
If efforts to counteract child abuse are written about in terms of race groups, then this can result in incorrectly judgements of people based on their race, and that is the type of racism we should be trying to avoid.
It's subtle, but important.
I'll shelve my previous attempt at sarcasm and try to explain my point in more academic terms.
It shouldn't take much imagination to realise that if you use the term "white middle class" to describe a different group to those allegedly overwhelmingly involved in the child abuse then you are making a racial statement which might not be true.
OK, it might be true that there is separation in terms of the income levels and relative levels of hardship, but any reference to race is very dangerous because statistics or no statistics, it promotes an "us and them" mentality.
I would suggest that, assuming the statistics to be correct, then the majority of the abuse is associated with low income, possible substance abuse and broken families. Since these attributes are present across cultures and will probably go hand in hand with child abuse worldwide across cultures, then it is towards people with these attributes where efforts should be aimed. The possibility that there might be statistically more Maori with these attributes does not mean efforts should be aimed at Maori, but only at people with these attributes irrespective of their ethnicity.
If efforts to counteract child abuse are written about in terms of race groups, then this can result in incorrectly judgements of people based on their race, and that is the type of racism we should be trying to avoid.
It's subtle, but important.
willsken
4th June 2009, 07:34 PM
I'll shelve my previous attempt at sarcasm and try to explain my point in more academic terms.
It shouldn't take much imagination to realise that if you use the term "white middle class" to describe a different group to those allegedly overwhelmingly involved in the child abuse then you are making a racial statement which might not be true.
OK, it might be true that there is separation in terms of the income levels and relative levels of hardship, but any reference to race is very dangerous because statistics or no statistics, it promotes an "us and them" mentality.
I would suggest that, assuming the statistics to be correct, then the majority of the abuse is associated with low income, possible substance abuse and broken families. Since these attributes are present across cultures and will probably go hand in hand with child abuse worldwide across cultures, then it is towards people with these attributes where efforts should be aimed. The possibility that there might be statistically more Maori with these attributes does not mean efforts should be aimed at Maori, but only at people with these attributes irrespective of their ethnicity.
If efforts to counteract child abuse are written about in terms of race groups, then this can result in incorrectly judgements of people based on their race, and that is the type of racism we should be trying to avoid.
It's subtle, but important.
Well said. :nice1
It won't let me rep you so a little smilie will have to do :D
It shouldn't take much imagination to realise that if you use the term "white middle class" to describe a different group to those allegedly overwhelmingly involved in the child abuse then you are making a racial statement which might not be true.
OK, it might be true that there is separation in terms of the income levels and relative levels of hardship, but any reference to race is very dangerous because statistics or no statistics, it promotes an "us and them" mentality.
I would suggest that, assuming the statistics to be correct, then the majority of the abuse is associated with low income, possible substance abuse and broken families. Since these attributes are present across cultures and will probably go hand in hand with child abuse worldwide across cultures, then it is towards people with these attributes where efforts should be aimed. The possibility that there might be statistically more Maori with these attributes does not mean efforts should be aimed at Maori, but only at people with these attributes irrespective of their ethnicity.
If efforts to counteract child abuse are written about in terms of race groups, then this can result in incorrectly judgements of people based on their race, and that is the type of racism we should be trying to avoid.
It's subtle, but important.
Well said. :nice1
It won't let me rep you so a little smilie will have to do :D
victoria24
4th June 2009, 07:36 PM
:nice1 from me too
peebles16
4th June 2009, 07:39 PM
This is a quote from the report that clearly shows the statistics:
* Between 1995 and 2004, 51 children under five died as a result of assault, two-thirds of them were aged under two;
* Of 57 homicide deaths of children under five between 1991 and 2000, the father was the killer in 18 cases, the mother in 14 cases, and a de facto partner in 15 cases;
* Maori boys are six times more likely to be seriously assaulted, and Maori girls three times more likely than non-Maori;
* Children with mothers under the age of 17 are significantly more likely to be fatally abused or seriously injured as a result of abuse;
* Parental alcohol consumption was "present" in a third of the deaths of children under five;
* Compounding factors include a previous history of violence, impending parental separation, and a lack of antenatal care.
Whilst it make for uncomfortable reading to show that one group have a higher incidence rate than others in NZ it is a fact and all the extensive work that is being done across NZ recognises this.
Just my humble point of view :o
Karenx
* Between 1995 and 2004, 51 children under five died as a result of assault, two-thirds of them were aged under two;
* Of 57 homicide deaths of children under five between 1991 and 2000, the father was the killer in 18 cases, the mother in 14 cases, and a de facto partner in 15 cases;
* Maori boys are six times more likely to be seriously assaulted, and Maori girls three times more likely than non-Maori;
* Children with mothers under the age of 17 are significantly more likely to be fatally abused or seriously injured as a result of abuse;
* Parental alcohol consumption was "present" in a third of the deaths of children under five;
* Compounding factors include a previous history of violence, impending parental separation, and a lack of antenatal care.
Whilst it make for uncomfortable reading to show that one group have a higher incidence rate than others in NZ it is a fact and all the extensive work that is being done across NZ recognises this.
Just my humble point of view :o
Karenx
willsken
4th June 2009, 08:17 PM
These are the facts and figures from the UK NSPCC. Horrendous reading and if you look at the causes of all this abuse then I would say race plays very little part in it. IMHO it's far more likely to be
"Also, family problems are major causes of child abuse. Parents under the power of drugs could easily hurt their children. Plus, financial problems could invoke parents or other members of the family to abuse children as an outlet of their emotions. Stress could also be a root cause of child abuse. It is good to know the cause of abuse on a certain child so that the treatment and the actions could be well defined." (http://ezinearticles.com/?Child-Abuse---What-Are-The-Causes-and-Effects?&id=1149170)
Isn't the above statement more of a common cause? Seeing as abuse is a world wide issue, picking out a certain race doesn't help. The above concerns need to be addressed and help provided to all. It really annoys me that people talk about the "white middle classes", seeming to forget that there are far more non middle class white people in the world. Those children suffer abuse as well and deserve the same help and resources thrown at them.
Facts and figures about child abuse NSPCC
Facts and figures about child abuse
NSPCC research shows that a significant minority of children suffer serious abuse or neglect:
7% of children experienced serious physical abuse at the hands of their parents or carers during childhood.
1% of children experienced sexual abuse by a parent or carer and another 3% by another relative during childhood.
11% of children experienced sexual abuse by people known but unrelated to them. 5% of children experienced sexual abuse by an adult stranger or someone they had just met'.
6% of children experienced serious absence of care at home during childhood.
6% of children experienced frequent and severe emotional maltreatment during childhood.1
16% of children experienced serious maltreatment by parents, of whom one third experienced more than one type of maltreatment.2
Latest available figures show that there are 32,700 children on child protection registers in the UK as at 31 March 2003.3
Nearly 79,000 children are currently looked after by local authorities in the UK.5
Every week in England and Wales one to two children will die following cruelty.6
There are on average 80 child homicides recorded in England and Wales each year.7
Every ten days in England and Wales, on average, one child is killed at the hands of their parent. An average of 35 a year over the past five years.
The people most likely to die a violent death are babies under 1 year old, who are four times more likely to be killed than the average person in England and Wales.9
Three-quarters of sexually abused children did not tell anyone about the abuse at the time, and around a third still had not told anyone about their experience(s) by early adulthood.10
Over a quarter of all rapes recorded by the police are committed against children under 16 years of age.11
31% of children experienced bullying during childhood, a further 7% were discriminated against and 14% were made to feel different/an outsider. 43% experienced at least one of these things during childhood.12
NSPCC teams and Helplines accepted over 24,000 requests for help in 2003-4.13
The National Commission of Inquiry into the Prevention of Child Abuse estimated that the cost of child abuse to statutory and voluntary agencies is £1 billion per year in the UK.
"Also, family problems are major causes of child abuse. Parents under the power of drugs could easily hurt their children. Plus, financial problems could invoke parents or other members of the family to abuse children as an outlet of their emotions. Stress could also be a root cause of child abuse. It is good to know the cause of abuse on a certain child so that the treatment and the actions could be well defined." (http://ezinearticles.com/?Child-Abuse---What-Are-The-Causes-and-Effects?&id=1149170)
Isn't the above statement more of a common cause? Seeing as abuse is a world wide issue, picking out a certain race doesn't help. The above concerns need to be addressed and help provided to all. It really annoys me that people talk about the "white middle classes", seeming to forget that there are far more non middle class white people in the world. Those children suffer abuse as well and deserve the same help and resources thrown at them.
Facts and figures about child abuse NSPCC
Facts and figures about child abuse
NSPCC research shows that a significant minority of children suffer serious abuse or neglect:
7% of children experienced serious physical abuse at the hands of their parents or carers during childhood.
1% of children experienced sexual abuse by a parent or carer and another 3% by another relative during childhood.
11% of children experienced sexual abuse by people known but unrelated to them. 5% of children experienced sexual abuse by an adult stranger or someone they had just met'.
6% of children experienced serious absence of care at home during childhood.
6% of children experienced frequent and severe emotional maltreatment during childhood.1
16% of children experienced serious maltreatment by parents, of whom one third experienced more than one type of maltreatment.2
Latest available figures show that there are 32,700 children on child protection registers in the UK as at 31 March 2003.3
Nearly 79,000 children are currently looked after by local authorities in the UK.5
Every week in England and Wales one to two children will die following cruelty.6
There are on average 80 child homicides recorded in England and Wales each year.7
Every ten days in England and Wales, on average, one child is killed at the hands of their parent. An average of 35 a year over the past five years.
The people most likely to die a violent death are babies under 1 year old, who are four times more likely to be killed than the average person in England and Wales.9
Three-quarters of sexually abused children did not tell anyone about the abuse at the time, and around a third still had not told anyone about their experience(s) by early adulthood.10
Over a quarter of all rapes recorded by the police are committed against children under 16 years of age.11
31% of children experienced bullying during childhood, a further 7% were discriminated against and 14% were made to feel different/an outsider. 43% experienced at least one of these things during childhood.12
NSPCC teams and Helplines accepted over 24,000 requests for help in 2003-4.13
The National Commission of Inquiry into the Prevention of Child Abuse estimated that the cost of child abuse to statutory and voluntary agencies is £1 billion per year in the UK.
dharder
4th June 2009, 08:50 PM
I'll shelve my previous attempt at sarcasm and try to explain my point in more academic terms.
We obviously have very different ideas of what 'sarcasm' and 'academic' means, as I have found neither in your posts.
I disagree with your premise, and see no merit in it (to be 'colourblind' in what you perceive to be a positive way). I believe it is a form of denial of reality to think that one can solve the issues regardless of what races are involved.
I will use the term 'white middle class', and I do not consider reference to race dangerous. In fact, I find not referencing it neglectful.
Obviously, low income, substance abuse, etc are the biggest contributors to problems, and I have said that before. To deny that in this country (and many others) that is very much a racial issue just seems plain silly.
We will have to agree to disagree, which is fine by me. I think the idea of 'colourblindness' tends to be a privilege of white people.
A person's race is not the reason why they abuse their children or are in drugs, I'm not sure where exactly you read that in my posts. A person's race, however, plays a large part in the chances a person has in this country (and many others) to end up in one particular socio-economic group.
I'll say no more on this, I think I've made the points I wanted to make. I have problems with your tone, and have had so in earlier posts, so I will refrain from further engaging with it.
Daniela
We obviously have very different ideas of what 'sarcasm' and 'academic' means, as I have found neither in your posts.
I disagree with your premise, and see no merit in it (to be 'colourblind' in what you perceive to be a positive way). I believe it is a form of denial of reality to think that one can solve the issues regardless of what races are involved.
I will use the term 'white middle class', and I do not consider reference to race dangerous. In fact, I find not referencing it neglectful.
Obviously, low income, substance abuse, etc are the biggest contributors to problems, and I have said that before. To deny that in this country (and many others) that is very much a racial issue just seems plain silly.
We will have to agree to disagree, which is fine by me. I think the idea of 'colourblindness' tends to be a privilege of white people.
A person's race is not the reason why they abuse their children or are in drugs, I'm not sure where exactly you read that in my posts. A person's race, however, plays a large part in the chances a person has in this country (and many others) to end up in one particular socio-economic group.
I'll say no more on this, I think I've made the points I wanted to make. I have problems with your tone, and have had so in earlier posts, so I will refrain from further engaging with it.
Daniela
Kanga
4th June 2009, 09:02 PM
*That's* a top post.
willsken
4th June 2009, 09:49 PM
Children living in poverty in Wales is highest in the UK
May 8 2009 by Martin Shipton, Western Mail
THE Assembly Government’s core aspiration to conquer child poverty has been blown seriously off course, according to new official figures.
Statistics released by the Department for Work and Pensions show that the number of children living in poverty in Wales is the highest of any UK nation – and is rising.
I suppose these children should be thankful that many of their race are successful in life. Not much chance of many of them getting ahead though, is there?
May 8 2009 by Martin Shipton, Western Mail
THE Assembly Government’s core aspiration to conquer child poverty has been blown seriously off course, according to new official figures.
Statistics released by the Department for Work and Pensions show that the number of children living in poverty in Wales is the highest of any UK nation – and is rising.
I suppose these children should be thankful that many of their race are successful in life. Not much chance of many of them getting ahead though, is there?
Sam B
4th June 2009, 10:03 PM
Well put Daniela. I would NEVER want to imply that simply being Maori means that you are more likely to abuse your kids, but the statistics in this country cannot be ignored, they are shocking. And I believe it is because the majority of Maori are so disadvantaged on most socio-economic measures - e.g. health, education, housing, employment (as has been mentioned before) plus a previous history of colonialisation that has only been addressed in recent years that are the causal factors here, not race obviously; but now the 2 are intertwined in a complicated way that makes it too simplistic to say that this has nothing to do with race.
Actually this is an issue that the rest of New Zealand is not arguing about - recent news reporting has focussed on the high numbers of Maori children dying, and many maori leaders have appeared on the news and have met together looking to address this issue - as happened recently in Rotorua after the trial of Nia Glassie's abusers.
Actually this is an issue that the rest of New Zealand is not arguing about - recent news reporting has focussed on the high numbers of Maori children dying, and many maori leaders have appeared on the news and have met together looking to address this issue - as happened recently in Rotorua after the trial of Nia Glassie's abusers.
JandM
4th June 2009, 10:31 PM
It seems to me that it's vital to build cultural awareness into any 'help' programme, otherwise some of the people most needing help may be put off accepting it. If cultural issues happen to run along race lines, it's no use being mealy-mouthed - if they are plainly spelt out and dealt with, help will arrive where it's needed all the sooner. So there may need to be a subtly different approach to e.g. cervical screening for Asian women, for Maori women etc. etc., so that they'll feel they can use it. Questions of intervening in families where there is abuse, or asking for help from within a family where there is abuse, may be even more complex than that. Who it feels appropriate to trust, because of social structures, may not be logical, but it's no use thinking a 'one provision fits all' will work.
willsken
4th June 2009, 10:49 PM
It seems to me that it's vital to build cultural awareness into any 'help' programme, otherwise some of the people most needing help may be put off accepting it. If cultural issues happen to run along race lines, it's no use being mealy-mouthed - if they are plainly spelt out and dealt with, help will arrive where it's needed all the sooner. So there may need to be a subtly different approach to e.g. cervical screening for Asian women, for Maori women etc. etc., so that they'll feel they can use it. Questions of intervening in families where there is abuse, or asking for help from within a family where there is abuse, may be even more complex than that. Who it feels appropriate to trust, because of social structures, may not be logical, but it's no use thinking a 'one provision fits all' will work.
What you say about being culturally aware is 100% spot on and I couldn't agree more. I just have a real objection when I read things that don't recognise the dreadful poverty experienced by a massive number of white people, they need help as well.
What you say about being culturally aware is 100% spot on and I couldn't agree more. I just have a real objection when I read things that don't recognise the dreadful poverty experienced by a massive number of white people, they need help as well.
Ngeru
5th June 2009, 12:23 AM
I would suggest that, assuming the statistics to be correct, then the majority of the abuse is associated with low income, possible substance abuse and broken families. Since these attributes are present across cultures and will probably go hand in hand with child abuse worldwide across cultures, then it is towards people with these attributes where efforts should be aimed. The possibility that there might be statistically more Maori with these attributes does not mean efforts should be aimed at Maori, but only at people with these attributes irrespective of their ethnicity.
If efforts to counteract child abuse are written about in terms of race groups, then this can result in incorrectly judgements of people based on their race, and that is the type of racism we should be trying to avoid.
It's subtle, but important.
http://www.maorihealth.govt.nz/moh.nsf/menuma/About+Maori+Health
If you work in health in NZ you will see that most definitely the opposite is true. There are myriads of programs and many millions of dollars of funding targeted directly and exclusively towards PI and Maori issues, Maori mental health care, Maori Wardens etc. - 'for Maori by Maori' is a popular term. The government, Ministry of Health and its agencies do recognise the issues, there are hundreds of agencies, charities, NGOs all working at tackling the problems and they are by no means swept under the carpet. I think they are equally at a loss as to what the answers are, because they can't do right for doing wrong. The latest suggestion for Maori only prisons kicked off a hornets nest, declarations of racism and concerns from all corners over special treatment, 'why should they get xyz?' blah blah blah, it goes on and on everyday.
The information is all there as plain as day for Joe Public to see. We see daily public service advertising on TV, spoken in Maori for Maori (not only on Maori TV), don't drink and fry etc. I see this divisiveness played out every day in some form or another and I fail to see how anyone can live here and not notice it - you really don't have to dig too deep to reveal the nitty gritty, beyond the scenic backdrop.
If efforts to counteract child abuse are written about in terms of race groups, then this can result in incorrectly judgements of people based on their race, and that is the type of racism we should be trying to avoid.
It's subtle, but important.
http://www.maorihealth.govt.nz/moh.nsf/menuma/About+Maori+Health
If you work in health in NZ you will see that most definitely the opposite is true. There are myriads of programs and many millions of dollars of funding targeted directly and exclusively towards PI and Maori issues, Maori mental health care, Maori Wardens etc. - 'for Maori by Maori' is a popular term. The government, Ministry of Health and its agencies do recognise the issues, there are hundreds of agencies, charities, NGOs all working at tackling the problems and they are by no means swept under the carpet. I think they are equally at a loss as to what the answers are, because they can't do right for doing wrong. The latest suggestion for Maori only prisons kicked off a hornets nest, declarations of racism and concerns from all corners over special treatment, 'why should they get xyz?' blah blah blah, it goes on and on everyday.
The information is all there as plain as day for Joe Public to see. We see daily public service advertising on TV, spoken in Maori for Maori (not only on Maori TV), don't drink and fry etc. I see this divisiveness played out every day in some form or another and I fail to see how anyone can live here and not notice it - you really don't have to dig too deep to reveal the nitty gritty, beyond the scenic backdrop.
ourquest
5th June 2009, 12:55 AM
http://www.maorihealth.govt.nz/moh.nsf/menuma/About+Maori+Health
I see this divisiveness played out every day in some form or another and I fail to see how anyone can live here and not notice it - you really don't have to dig too deep to reveal the nitty gritty, beyond the scenic backdrop.
Oh it's noticeable alright, but that does not necessarily give people such as myself the licence to use racial terms to vastly pigeonhole cultures, and it doesn't make me want to either. I am relatively happy if organisations who have honourable motives and sound research choose to target how they do, but on this forum we are usually not part of a practical solution, so the least we can do is be hesitant to mention that race might have something to do with peoples' circumstances, since what is true at a statistical level is potentially meaningless at the level of the individual. I will repeat what I have said elsewhere...that the real issue with racism is when you or I find ourselves judging someone else because of what we have heard about their culture as a whole.
A subtlety that has perhaps got lost in/from my own postings is my contention that in the "us and them" debate the "us" has somehow become middle class and white. If the abuse/socio-economic issue was purely taken as an issue significantly affecting Maori then I willingly accept that as part of the transparency of the New Zealand way, but in this case there needs to be no mention of an "opposing" culture or group of people.
Not every issue has to have "good" and "bad". Sometimes issues are just issues. And certainly they are sufficiently complex at a personal level that in real individual cases of child abuse we are unlikely to be able to pinpoint a single contributing factor.
I see this divisiveness played out every day in some form or another and I fail to see how anyone can live here and not notice it - you really don't have to dig too deep to reveal the nitty gritty, beyond the scenic backdrop.
Oh it's noticeable alright, but that does not necessarily give people such as myself the licence to use racial terms to vastly pigeonhole cultures, and it doesn't make me want to either. I am relatively happy if organisations who have honourable motives and sound research choose to target how they do, but on this forum we are usually not part of a practical solution, so the least we can do is be hesitant to mention that race might have something to do with peoples' circumstances, since what is true at a statistical level is potentially meaningless at the level of the individual. I will repeat what I have said elsewhere...that the real issue with racism is when you or I find ourselves judging someone else because of what we have heard about their culture as a whole.
A subtlety that has perhaps got lost in/from my own postings is my contention that in the "us and them" debate the "us" has somehow become middle class and white. If the abuse/socio-economic issue was purely taken as an issue significantly affecting Maori then I willingly accept that as part of the transparency of the New Zealand way, but in this case there needs to be no mention of an "opposing" culture or group of people.
Not every issue has to have "good" and "bad". Sometimes issues are just issues. And certainly they are sufficiently complex at a personal level that in real individual cases of child abuse we are unlikely to be able to pinpoint a single contributing factor.
Sam B
5th June 2009, 02:21 PM
Actually, I think a lot of people on this forum are a part of the practical solution or at least involved at the point where we see daily examples of what we are talking about Ourquest, given that there are a high number of skilled migrants working in health, education, social services and policing on this forum.
Philip10
5th June 2009, 02:35 PM
It is clear that these types of threads generate much debate. At times I feel it can become acrimonious, which probably has to do with the subject matter not the people involved in the debate. It seems that discussion on aspects of NZ which are not positive invokes powerful emotions in people. Some people feel “as if” they are being criticized in someway for choosing to live in NZ and feel the need to defend the country with the utmost patriotism, more so then most Kiwis.
IMO this is evident as I can not recall the same type of debate enthusing if someone mentions child abuse or poverty in the UK. Expats in NZ don’t post to say how much worse it is in NZ or in fact in NZ poverty is just as bad as inner London or compared to NZ the UK is far better……….. The truth is of course the UK has child abuse and poverty just as NZ has child abuse and poverty, it is equally true that Maori children statically are more likely to suffer from the effects of poverty which can include child abuse then white Europeans or white European descent.
I like living in NZ, I like its culture, its natural beauty, its people (I now have a Kiwi girlfriend), however when discussing aspects of NZ with people, I don’t feel an overwhelming need to justify my reasons for living or moving here, in that “what a great choice I have made to move to NZ which is a far better country then any where else”. It would seem absurd to a Kiwi to point out to them how much better NZ is then the UK when discussing the effects of drug & gang crime, road accidents, poverty, child deaths form unnatural causes or the lack parking spaces and cycle lanes has on NZ life. These issues are real and need discussion to make NZ a better society.
IMO some expats (not just on this forum) cannot bare the thought that NZ is not the utopia they imaged before moving to live here and will attack anyone who would dare to suggest otherwise. As I said before I like NZ, I choose to move here and chose to continue living here.
IMO this is evident as I can not recall the same type of debate enthusing if someone mentions child abuse or poverty in the UK. Expats in NZ don’t post to say how much worse it is in NZ or in fact in NZ poverty is just as bad as inner London or compared to NZ the UK is far better……….. The truth is of course the UK has child abuse and poverty just as NZ has child abuse and poverty, it is equally true that Maori children statically are more likely to suffer from the effects of poverty which can include child abuse then white Europeans or white European descent.
I like living in NZ, I like its culture, its natural beauty, its people (I now have a Kiwi girlfriend), however when discussing aspects of NZ with people, I don’t feel an overwhelming need to justify my reasons for living or moving here, in that “what a great choice I have made to move to NZ which is a far better country then any where else”. It would seem absurd to a Kiwi to point out to them how much better NZ is then the UK when discussing the effects of drug & gang crime, road accidents, poverty, child deaths form unnatural causes or the lack parking spaces and cycle lanes has on NZ life. These issues are real and need discussion to make NZ a better society.
IMO some expats (not just on this forum) cannot bare the thought that NZ is not the utopia they imaged before moving to live here and will attack anyone who would dare to suggest otherwise. As I said before I like NZ, I choose to move here and chose to continue living here.
victoria24
5th June 2009, 02:44 PM
Sorry, just gone back a few posts. Phillip10, I was just interested to know what you are doing to make sure it gets better for everyone???
.....
.....
ourquest
5th June 2009, 03:53 PM
IMO some expats (not just on this forum) cannot bare the thought that NZ is not the utopia they imaged before moving to live here and will attack anyone who would dare to suggest otherwise. As I said before I like NZ, I choose to move here and chose to continue living here.
It would seem that expats just as often feel the need to point out specific negatives as if we all should know them, and then criticize those who provide an opposite positive view. It works both ways.
I remind you that in your opening post you made the sweeping statement that suggested that children in general could not experience a peaceful life in New Zealand. Your exaggeration in this case was overwhelmingly negative, and it received commentary in the same way as someone would have if they declared categorically that the the wind never stops blowing in New Zealand.
What you probably could have said is that "the documented child abuse here in New Zealand means that a (relatively small) proportion of children are not experiencing as much peace as the Global Peace Index ranking would suggest. This is a more objective statement. Had you said this and I or anyone else had posted that there is insignificant amount of child abuse in New Zealand, then we would certainly have been guilty of trying to make out that the place is a Utopia. But we all understand that the problem is significant. What we don't necessarily agree on are the merits of describing the problem with racial undertones. This isn't positive or negative, it is merely an approach designed to make the world a better place by focussing on the problem and not the culture.
I note too the SamB has corrected me in that many members on the forum are in fact part of a practical solution. Fair enough, and this leads me to feel that in one way or another we all are. I am concious, for example, of the role I play in my own children's lives and in my responsibility not to cross the line into abuse. We also musn't forget that abuse takes numerous forms, and that emotional abuse is potentially more harmful to children than the physical equivalent, particularly since it is less definable and therefore perpetrated far more often by people without them realising it. In all cases, charity begins at home.
On the topic of emotions, it is often the perceptions and emotions which will dictate whether immigrants feel comfortable with their new lives. It is my own approach to minimise pointing out negatives to anyone unless it is likely to have a positive consequence on their lives (in that they make a wiser choice for example). I fail to see how forwarning people that there are issues such as drugs and crime, child abuse or traffic accidents is going to contribute positively to their move. Knowing how to deal with these issues doesn't come from knowing they exist, but comes about when any person has to deal with them on a firsthand basis. Many don't ever have to, and the point that if they did have to experience it that it could have happened anywhere remains a valid one.
I do not believe immigrants return to their countries of origin as a result of the issues you mention, but mostly because they do not feel comfortable or at home in New Zealand. When you are comfortable you feel like you can deal with any issues that arise.
So bottom line is that this is a forum about immigration, for people integrating into New Zealand. It isn't specifically a forum on which to raise deep negative issues, although I would agree it certainly is the better for it. My own opinion then, is that if you want to make a difference, rather provide motivational reasons for people to feel good about themselves and the place they live in. This will ultimately help them to remain balanced people, and balanced people often have the most successful contribution to society and are better placed mentally to deal with the inevitable issues all societies experience.
It would seem that expats just as often feel the need to point out specific negatives as if we all should know them, and then criticize those who provide an opposite positive view. It works both ways.
I remind you that in your opening post you made the sweeping statement that suggested that children in general could not experience a peaceful life in New Zealand. Your exaggeration in this case was overwhelmingly negative, and it received commentary in the same way as someone would have if they declared categorically that the the wind never stops blowing in New Zealand.
What you probably could have said is that "the documented child abuse here in New Zealand means that a (relatively small) proportion of children are not experiencing as much peace as the Global Peace Index ranking would suggest. This is a more objective statement. Had you said this and I or anyone else had posted that there is insignificant amount of child abuse in New Zealand, then we would certainly have been guilty of trying to make out that the place is a Utopia. But we all understand that the problem is significant. What we don't necessarily agree on are the merits of describing the problem with racial undertones. This isn't positive or negative, it is merely an approach designed to make the world a better place by focussing on the problem and not the culture.
I note too the SamB has corrected me in that many members on the forum are in fact part of a practical solution. Fair enough, and this leads me to feel that in one way or another we all are. I am concious, for example, of the role I play in my own children's lives and in my responsibility not to cross the line into abuse. We also musn't forget that abuse takes numerous forms, and that emotional abuse is potentially more harmful to children than the physical equivalent, particularly since it is less definable and therefore perpetrated far more often by people without them realising it. In all cases, charity begins at home.
On the topic of emotions, it is often the perceptions and emotions which will dictate whether immigrants feel comfortable with their new lives. It is my own approach to minimise pointing out negatives to anyone unless it is likely to have a positive consequence on their lives (in that they make a wiser choice for example). I fail to see how forwarning people that there are issues such as drugs and crime, child abuse or traffic accidents is going to contribute positively to their move. Knowing how to deal with these issues doesn't come from knowing they exist, but comes about when any person has to deal with them on a firsthand basis. Many don't ever have to, and the point that if they did have to experience it that it could have happened anywhere remains a valid one.
I do not believe immigrants return to their countries of origin as a result of the issues you mention, but mostly because they do not feel comfortable or at home in New Zealand. When you are comfortable you feel like you can deal with any issues that arise.
So bottom line is that this is a forum about immigration, for people integrating into New Zealand. It isn't specifically a forum on which to raise deep negative issues, although I would agree it certainly is the better for it. My own opinion then, is that if you want to make a difference, rather provide motivational reasons for people to feel good about themselves and the place they live in. This will ultimately help them to remain balanced people, and balanced people often have the most successful contribution to society and are better placed mentally to deal with the inevitable issues all societies experience.
victoria24
5th June 2009, 04:11 PM
ourquest pulls another great post out of the bag :nice1
i did think about starting a new thread called "NZ is ace but sometimes some things aren't quite as ace as others"
i did think about starting a new thread called "NZ is ace but sometimes some things aren't quite as ace as others"
willsken
5th June 2009, 04:34 PM
IMO some expats (not just on this forum) cannot bare the thought that NZ is not the utopia they imaged before moving to live here and will attack anyone who would dare to suggest otherwise. As I said before I like NZ, I choose to move here and chose to continue living here.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_chi_inj_dea_ind-health-child-injury-death-index
http://www.wellchild.org.nz/PDF_Files/Childwatch_July07.pdf
I understand where you're coming from with this comment but from my point of view I only feel the need to defend NZ when people try to make it out to be worse than is actually fact. In looking at the stats I've read, unless the USA is now not classed as part of the developed world, then this statement is factually incorrect.
Unless you are a child, as N Z has the worst death and injury rates for children in the developed world. (NZ Paediatric Society Jun 09)
This doesn't change the fact NZ has a problem but in reality it's not that much worse than a lot of other developed countries. There is also a lot of work happening in the country to try and rectify this issue.
Still a least some adults can find peace.
I'm pretty sure (in fact 100%) that there are plenty of children who find peace here in NZ as well. (Love and happiness too if they're very lucky;))
I live here and love it here but I'm happy to reply to posts asking about the negatives and give truthful answers about the downsides.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_chi_inj_dea_ind-health-child-injury-death-index
http://www.wellchild.org.nz/PDF_Files/Childwatch_July07.pdf
I understand where you're coming from with this comment but from my point of view I only feel the need to defend NZ when people try to make it out to be worse than is actually fact. In looking at the stats I've read, unless the USA is now not classed as part of the developed world, then this statement is factually incorrect.
Unless you are a child, as N Z has the worst death and injury rates for children in the developed world. (NZ Paediatric Society Jun 09)
This doesn't change the fact NZ has a problem but in reality it's not that much worse than a lot of other developed countries. There is also a lot of work happening in the country to try and rectify this issue.
Still a least some adults can find peace.
I'm pretty sure (in fact 100%) that there are plenty of children who find peace here in NZ as well. (Love and happiness too if they're very lucky;))
I live here and love it here but I'm happy to reply to posts asking about the negatives and give truthful answers about the downsides.
Joolzr
5th June 2009, 04:52 PM
I think this is an interesting thread- and as a migrant, I am kean to learn about the whole of NZ culture, not just my little bubble. There are some things I can deal with in the society I choose to live in, others I cannot.
As Sam said, a huge number of indicators suggest that some racial groups are disadvantaged in NZ. I'm interested to find out what steps are being taken to give equality of opportunity here. Ignoring the problems, or refusing to talk about them will not lead to change. It's not considered racist or sexist to discuss poor school outcomes of African Carribean boys in the UK, so why should we avoid the issue here?
As Sam said, a huge number of indicators suggest that some racial groups are disadvantaged in NZ. I'm interested to find out what steps are being taken to give equality of opportunity here. Ignoring the problems, or refusing to talk about them will not lead to change. It's not considered racist or sexist to discuss poor school outcomes of African Carribean boys in the UK, so why should we avoid the issue here?
willsken
5th June 2009, 05:03 PM
I think this is an interesting thread- and as a migrant, I am kean to learn about the whole of NZ culture, not just my little bubble. There are some things I can deal with in the society I choose to live in, others I cannot.
As Sam said, a huge number of indicators suggest that some racial groups are disadvantaged in NZ. I'm interested to find out what steps are being taken to give equality of opportunity here. Ignoring the problems, or refusing to talk about them will not lead to change. It's not considered racist or sexist to discuss poor school outcomes of African Carribean boys in the UK, so why should we avoid the issue here?
I don't think the issue you mention is avoided here in NZ at all. It's talked about a lot. In the school I teach in it’s talked about all the time, in fact raising Maori achievement is in my annual plan. For me the issue with this thread isn't about racial groups being disadvantaged being discussed, because I agree they are. This thread was talking about child abuse and I don't believe one race is more likely to abuse than another. Circumstance, not race, creates abusers.
As Sam said, a huge number of indicators suggest that some racial groups are disadvantaged in NZ. I'm interested to find out what steps are being taken to give equality of opportunity here. Ignoring the problems, or refusing to talk about them will not lead to change. It's not considered racist or sexist to discuss poor school outcomes of African Carribean boys in the UK, so why should we avoid the issue here?
I don't think the issue you mention is avoided here in NZ at all. It's talked about a lot. In the school I teach in it’s talked about all the time, in fact raising Maori achievement is in my annual plan. For me the issue with this thread isn't about racial groups being disadvantaged being discussed, because I agree they are. This thread was talking about child abuse and I don't believe one race is more likely to abuse than another. Circumstance, not race, creates abusers.
BkyMonster
5th June 2009, 05:13 PM
Circumstance, not race, creates abusers.
:yes
Have to agree there. Where I think people are getting bogged down in making the distinction is that often a lot of risk circumstances that can lead to child abuse can correlate with race. However...correlation is not causation.
I think if you took each risk factor individually from this list that I linked previous (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0906/S00041.htm), you would certainly find that race -by itself- is NOT an independent or significant contributor to child abuse.
:yes
Have to agree there. Where I think people are getting bogged down in making the distinction is that often a lot of risk circumstances that can lead to child abuse can correlate with race. However...correlation is not causation.
I think if you took each risk factor individually from this list that I linked previous (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0906/S00041.htm), you would certainly find that race -by itself- is NOT an independent or significant contributor to child abuse.
Philip10
5th June 2009, 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwen
Sorry, just gone back a few posts. Phillip10, I was just interested to know what you are doing to make sure it gets better for everyone???
.....
.....
Clinical Nurse Specialist (Specialising with children under 10 that have suffered from severe abuse or trauma)
Originally Posted by Arwen
Sorry, just gone back a few posts. Phillip10, I was just interested to know what you are doing to make sure it gets better for everyone???
.....
.....
Clinical Nurse Specialist (Specialising with children under 10 that have suffered from severe abuse or trauma)
victoria24
5th June 2009, 05:28 PM
Clinical Nurse Specialist (Specialising with children under 10 that have suffered from severe abuse or trauma)
fair shout.. wasnt being facetious but didnt know if you had missed the previous post.
fair shout.. wasnt being facetious but didnt know if you had missed the previous post.
willsken
5th June 2009, 05:31 PM
Clinical Nurse Specialist (Specialising with children under 10 that have suffered from severe abuse or trauma)
Hard job. I worked for years with severely abused teens. Kind of gets to you in the end.
Hard job. I worked for years with severely abused teens. Kind of gets to you in the end.
Joolzr
5th June 2009, 05:39 PM
Circumstance, not race, creates abusers.
I agree, and it's great to hear the issue is being addressed and how- that's why it is an interesting thread. I guess I was thinking about the earlier comments about the lack of negativity/balanced discussion on the forum.
But I also agree with Sam B's description of how race and other factors are intertwined in NZ.
I agree, and it's great to hear the issue is being addressed and how- that's why it is an interesting thread. I guess I was thinking about the earlier comments about the lack of negativity/balanced discussion on the forum.
But I also agree with Sam B's description of how race and other factors are intertwined in NZ.
Philip10
5th June 2009, 05:40 PM
How about everyone on this thread going for a cyber drink together and a laugh. Lets talk about football and stuff. I need it its been a bit too serious for me. :cheers
willsken
5th June 2009, 06:02 PM
How about everyone on this thread going for a cyber drink together and a laugh. Lets talk about football and stuff. I need it its been a bit too serious for me. :cheers
I can talk about many things........ but football? I'd need to pass you over to the OH :o
:cheers
I can talk about many things........ but football? I'd need to pass you over to the OH :o
:cheers
Arwen
5th June 2009, 06:14 PM
How about everyone on this thread going for a cyber drink together and a laugh. Lets talk about football and stuff. I need it its been a bit too serious for me. :cheers
Mine's a red wine please (bottle that is, not glass):laugh
Mine's a red wine please (bottle that is, not glass):laugh
Arwen
5th June 2009, 06:17 PM
:cheers :clap
To all those on this forum who are making a positive difference in the lives of abused children. You have my respect. :nice1
To all those on this forum who are making a positive difference in the lives of abused children. You have my respect. :nice1
victoria24
5th June 2009, 06:50 PM
:cheers :clap
To all those on this forum who are making a positive difference in the lives of abused children. You have my respect. :nice1
word!
To all those on this forum who are making a positive difference in the lives of abused children. You have my respect. :nice1
word!
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