[eassae]

My wife and I have been in NZ for four months now. We both work in creative industries. The OH has a day job while I am a contractor. I am in the process of building new clients and have had some work, but still have a lot of free time. Since I have so much free time, I have been introducing myself around town and doing some volunteering. I have been able to meet a lot of Kiwi's in the process.

This is what is making me paranoid. Usually when I meet a new Kiwi I focus the conversation on them, and I have found that kiwi's are more than happy to talk about themselves, and as an inquisitive person I am grateful to learn all I can about the new culture I am immersed in. When I meet other creative Kiwi's on some occasions they will ask a question about me (maybe) or my work and I usually end up giving them a link to my portfolio. It seems to me like we have had a good conversation and we are laughing and joking and all is good. The next time I see them, I get the cold shoulder.

I guess this is really another tall poppies question. I look fairly good on paper, and I try to tell myself it's something else, but it keeps happening over and over.

Any thoughts? Any advice?

[ellenmelon]

I have no idea, but that sucks! It doesn't sound logical. You seem to be a really cool person and as you said, initial impressions on both sides when you're talking to people is good..then they blank you. Jealousy? It's not you, it's them..but I understand why you want to get why they're being so rude.

I'm not much help really :( Just wanted to say "what! how rude!"

[Ash3000]

Hi EASSAE,

are you a graphic designer, like me...I had a very hard time looking for a full time job and had to return to India...now hoping to be there again with a stronger portfolio :yes

but yeah, theres more freelance work there than full time opportuinities for creative people in the film/tv industry...maybe beacuse its pretty small in NZ :cool:

[eassae]

Thanks ellenmelon, I appreciate your sentiment very much.

Yes Ash3000 I am a designer. Graphic sometimes and other things as well. I hope your next move works out.

[GrumpyGoat]

This is what is making me paranoid. Usually when I meet a new Kiwi I focus the conversation on them, and I have found that kiwi's are more than happy to talk about themselves, and as an inquisitive person I am grateful to learn all I can about the new culture I am immersed in. When I meet other creative Kiwi's on some occasions they will ask a question about me (maybe) or my work and I usually end up giving them a link to my portfolio. It seems to me like we have had a good conversation and we are laughing and joking and all is good. The next time I see them, I get the cold shoulder.


I think this is some kind of subtle cultural difference? I have been struggling with something similar and it is making me paranoid too. I am so happy to see someone else trying to figure it out (but sorry for your experience).
I have been very disconcerted dealing with this too. It is the opposite of american behavior--where once you have a decent conversation, you are "friends" from then on. Not here. "the cold shoulder"--that is a good way to characterize it.
But sorry--I can't help beyond commiseration. I don't understand it and I have been feeling rather unliked because of my sensitivity to it.

[Ash3000]

Yes Ash3000 I am a designer. Graphic sometimes and other things as well. I hope your next move works out.[/QUOTE]

thanks!!!! :)

[broadsword08]

hi there
i'll start by saying that i think you pose a fairly complex question and i'll give you my ten cents openly and honestly but do noter that i'm not looking to cause offense so please dont take any
i read your post and also had a scoot through your blog
you seem to be trying to rationalise and judge things in general about nz, nzlanders and your experiences here... theres nothing wrong with this of course, but maybe you dont need to worry about it so much and just get on with doing what you want/need/have to do?
perhaps you are a little over eager to 'understand' your new situation and feel accepted in it... maybe this comes across in your interaction with people and influences the way you and they act?
if i was to make some sweeping generalisations about the kiwis i have met i would say they are mostly straight talking, non-judgmental, down to earth, supportive and generous, they dont like 'twaddle' or inability to help ones self, they can often seem gruff, disinterested and blunt, particularly on the phone
maybe what you are experiencing is simply that people here dont tend to worry about what other people think about them/are doing/have and that your perception of this is that they seem disinterested in you...
any good?

[Steven & Ann]

A possibility for you. Most Kiwi's are surrounded by people they grew up with, worked with, etc., and they already have a wide list of friends. Maybe they dont have the same needs as a migrant, and don't see the workplace as a place to extend their social network.

I have found it very easy to get on with people at work, but rarely see any of them out of the workplace. Most of the people I meet where I live, I would never expect to find them in my workplace, they are too different.

On the professional side, your portfolio may be too strong. In comparison with someone who has never worked outside of NZ, you may have a list of clients that you think are par for the course, but for them it is intimidating. I have heard many migrants have slimmed down the CV to reduce the wow factor. That way, you may look more like their vision of what they want, and may become less intimidating.

Steve

[JandM]

By 'cold shoulder', do you mean that they blank you totally? Or what?

[Tesall]

Sorry to hear this! As thick skinned insensitive chap.. I generally dont even notice I am getting a cold shoulder, n fact I am more than likely the cold shoulderer, rather than the cold shoulderee.

All I can is maybe you are having repeat cases of second conversation blues... thats my phrase for when you have met someone the first time, done all the small talk stuff.... weather, career, 'how you like NZ' blah blah ....and dont have much to say the second time round!

Only other advice.... stop mixing with those artsy folks, start talking to accountants and computer programmers, we are so relieved to be chatting with anyone.. we are bound to take at least 4 chats before getting the second conversation blues ....my wife just thumped me for including accountants :(

[Tesall]

Do you give people the address of your blog? Having just read it I agree with Broadsword.... it might be a little 'much' for a kiwi to swallow.

[sks]

1. The whole world hates America.
2. All of America hates New York.
3. All of New York hates Brooklyn.

(I wish I were exaggerating by much, but I'm not.)

You said you've been giving people links to your portfolio -- have you been giving them links to your blog as well? If you have, there's at least one site that your blog links to that does a pretty fair job of maligning NZ in general.

[eassae]

Thanks Broadsword. You definitely gave me something to think about.

No, Tesall the blog is for family and friends and I have the link here incase any emigrants are interested.

They don't blank me totally JaneM. I understand that this is a small place and you run into people you know often so it is sometimes easier to go about your day without acknowledging everyone you see. What I am experiencing is in social situations, one word answers then walk offs.

I am very hard to offend and I often express my opinions freely as a result (I am usually not combative though, unless I am grumpy. I'm almost never grumpy when I meet new people), but as I said before the initial conversations I have had with Kiwi's go well, and everything ends well with them telling me they will update me on this or that, look forward to talking more, etc...

Only other advice.... stop mixing with those artsy folks, start talking to accountants and computer programmers, we are so relieved to be chatting with anyone.. we are bound to take at least 4 chats before getting the second conversation blues ....my wife just thumped me for including accountants:nice1:laugh

If you come up with an answer GrumpyGoat let me know and I will do the same for you.

[eassae]

1. The whole world hates America.
2. All of America hates New York.
3. All of New York hates Brooklyn.

(I wish I were exaggerating by much, but I'm not.)

:cheers

You said you've been giving people links to your portfolio -- have you been giving them links to your blog as well? If you have, there's at least one site that your blog links to that does a pretty fair job of maligning NZ in general.

Yeah, I was wondering if I would catch flak for that link. I find the site interesting, although it doesn't promote the way I like to deal with problems, I thought I would put it out there.

[Sheldon]

What link is that?

[eassae]

On the professional side, your portfolio may be too strong. In comparison with someone who has never worked outside of NZ, you may have a list of clients that you think are par for the course, but for them it is intimidating. I have heard many migrants have slimmed down the CV to reduce the wow factor. That way, you may look more like their vision of what they want, and may become less intimidating.

This sounds like tall poppies to me Steve & Ann. Of the people you know that modified themselves, how are they fairing personally?, how do they feel about having to portray a different image of themselves than they are used to?

What link is that?

http://www.expatexposed.com/

[Flutterby]

could it possibly be that it seems like you are selling yourself/services by handing over your portfolio details and they are offended by you being so forward?

I'm pulling at strings here so please don't be offended by my suggestion, its just that some people can be a little TOO forward.

[eassae]

could it possibly be that it seems like you are selling yourself/services by handing over your portfolio details and they are offended by you being so forward?

I'm pulling at strings here so please don't be offended by my suggestion, its just that some people can be a little TOO forward.


I don't think that is it. I usually don't give my portfolio out unless they are inquisitive. Upon first meet, I usually can't get a word in edge wise with many Kiwi's. I am not overly gregarious and am somewhat reserved, but I do have to meet new people in my line of work all the time so introductory conversations don't make me uncomfortable.

[BkyMonster]

Hmm. I know exactly what you are talking about, though I have to say I haven't exclusively encountered it in NZ. I'd have to almost totally agree with broadsword08's assessment and add in that kiwis are a bizzare juxtaposition of outgoing and also shy.
I'd also agree with Tesall that it's also dependent on the type of person you talk to. I know OH has noticed that computer programmers are the same (mildly socially inept :D Am I allowed to say that? I'm married to one) the world over and so he hasn't had any issues.
My main social contacts have been with his co-workers wives and I can think of one instance where I was invited to some crafty group activity (wasn't exactly my thing in the first place) with a bunch of women. They were talking about something and the topic of skunks came up. None of them knew what one smelled like so I tried to explain, but after I did I got the distinct impression I had embarrassed them with my knowledge. :( Believe me I wasn't going to tell people I just met the best way to get rid of skunk-smell :laugh --but just what the odor was like to people who were wondering? I wouldn't have thought that would be an issue!

Of course I'm not actually particularly friendly (nice, helpful intentions yes, it simply doesn't occur to me to want to do things with people), and probably fairly socially inept myself. I haven't actually had any friends to go out and do things with in around 10 years and it doesn't seem to bother me too much.

Have you ever lived in a city that was slightly smaller than a nearby larger city? It gets so the city (advertising, personal impressions), radiates a feeling of inadequacy. Even when we were in Auckland we met people who more or less apologized for Christchurch (as if it was some kind of provincial embarrassment). I kind of think all of NZ feels a bit that way sometimes. Like a younger sibling trying to puff themselves up a bit. (I like it fine the way it is, for the record).

[ellenmelon]

I wanted to add something else, it's not directed straight at the OP..I come from a real newbie perspective as I graduate at the end of the year but I think it's pretty bad when you have to start modifying yourself to suit others. I understand, and practice myself, modifying the slightly negative things about my personality for example that I think may affect the my employability (I too will be working in a industry where networking is how most people get work), because I'm so new that's how I am networking. But there must be a 'line in the sand' in each of us where we go "if they don't want to work with me, well that's ok because so and so does!" for example. Slimming down the C.V., while I understand why it happens I think it shows more about people here than it does the emigrant for example. Why is being fantastic at your job, and proud of your achievements so bad? I have classmates that are fantastic at things I'm not, and vice versa. I did use to be jealous but now I see them as invaluable resource.

My 2c anyway!

[eassae]

I think your 2c is worth at least a dollar ellenmelon.

Aren't you supposed to take a bath in tomato juice or something to get rid of skunk smell?

[GrumpyGoat]

I have a rather lucky additional achievement. I have had a CV good enough to get an interview with about 20% of the jobs I apply for. Many times a second interview as well. But I keep NOT getting the job. I have been told that I was "2nd". That is awful, isn't it? That's the first loser.
It is insulting.:laugh It means I look good on paper but then when they meet me "no thanks". I guess my personality just doesn't translate? I am rather bubbly. My OH says "bubbly" isn't the best word--"animated" is better. I think I freak them out.
I guess it is just a cultural difference. In the US, if I could get an interview, I ALWAYS got hired.

Yeah, I understand having adjustment issues.

[GrumpyGoat]

Yes, tomato juice or paste.

Don't use V8--it is spicy!! It will burn your eyes. Yes, I know from experience.

[ellenmelon]

I think your 2c is worth at least a dollar ellenmelon.

Cheers :)

[ExitStageSouth]

Only other advice.... stop mixing with those artsy folks, start talking to accountants and computer programmers

Well, the OP said "creative", not "artsy". In socio-economic classification, "artsy" types are actually only a fringe component of the creative classes and engineers, scientists etc. are the core -- you know, because they actually create the stuff we all need. As far as social interactions, I've spent most of my career working closely with various flavours of designers and I can't say I've noticed their social skills are vastly different from the software engineers I've worked with. They might be tend towards being more extrovert, but that doesn't equate to great social skills.

Rant over, back to the OP's question. I'm not sure what the difference is between your expected response and what actually happens. As has been noted, any initial interaction is likely driven by a fairly formalised social prerogative to show interest and exchange information. You may come from a culture where that process continues for longer but in NZ perhaps that need just isn't there. My experiences from being new elsewhere have certainly been that nearly all new acquaintances rapidly go from ten-minute conversations to casual waves and nods at best.

You also have to accept that, in a mercenary business sense, you have little to offer many people as an immigrant. Back home you may have had contacts and leverage that others would see value in and so wish to be in your network. It's likely that your current status is somewhat diminished in this regard and you're very much on the outside looking in. You're going to have to chase, because few people will feel the need to chase you.

I wouldn't worry too much about any links from your blog. I've found that even if people specifically ask for links to blogs etc. very few actually look at them. Check your logs.

[eassae]

I have a rather lucky additional achievement. I have had a CV good enough to get an interview with about 20% of the jobs I apply for. Many times a second interview as well. But I keep NOT getting the job. I have been told that I was "2nd". That is awful, isn't it? That's the first loser.
It is insulting.:laugh It means I look good on paper but then when they meet me "no thanks". I guess my personality just doesn't translate? I am rather bubbly. My OH says "bubbly" isn't the best word--"animated" is better. I think I freak them out.
I guess it is just a cultural difference. In the US, if I could get an interview, I ALWAYS got hired.

Yeah, I understand having adjustment issues.

I've gotten the runner up thing a few times now. I had one person explain to me in length how employable I was,...........................buuuuuuuuut I didn't get the job?

[benandclare]

My daughter is in a similar situation in that she's trying to get a years placement in industry for her Civil engineering degree back in UK.

She has a cracking CV and excellent marks from her course but alas no luck at interviews. She's now getting help from the Uni on her interview techniques although this is probably too late to help her.

Clare back in the UK had to interview lots of folks and was more than happy to provide feedback for those unsuccessful for the position. Have you guys been back and asked for a de brief as to why you didn't get the job. They might then be able to help you adapt your interview technique .

Could be an avenue to explore.

Best of luck for the future :nice1

[GrumpyGoat]

Have you guys been back and asked for a de brief as to why you didn't get the job. They might then be able to help you adapt your interview technique .

Could be an avenue to explore.

Best of luck for the future :nice1

Yes, I ALWAYS ask and I have been given some "you don't have NZ experience" type answers. Which is absurd IMO--since I didn't have that on my CV when they decided to interview me.
I have been given long stories about how difficult a decision it was and it was just so darn equal but they decided to pick the one with NZ experience. Which makes sense but then WHY waste my time with an interview?

I know it is competitive right now and I am stuck looking for school hours jobs and it is down right cut throat in ChCh for these --I am told as many as 300 applications on accounting jobs--so I should be happy that I get interviews except that they are dead ends.

I try to take it in stride but when I add this repeated rejection to the strange 'cold shoulder" we discussed earlier.....well, yeah, it can quickly lead to paranoia. Or I have a serious personality defect and I don't know it. Which is possible. :D

[Tesall]

Well, the OP said "creative", not "artsy". In socio-economic classification, "artsy" types are actually only a fringe component of the creative classes and engineers, scientists etc. are the core -- you know, because they actually create the stuff we all need. As far as social interactions, I've spent most of my career working closely with various flavours of designers and I can't say I've noticed their social skills are vastly different from the software engineers I've worked with. They might be tend towards being more extrovert, but that doesn't equate to great social skills.



You must be a barrel of laughs at a party....

[Arwen]

You must be a barrel of laughs at a party....

:laugh:laugh:laugh:nice1

[eassae]

Well, the OP said "creative", not "artsy". In socio-economic classification, "artsy" types are actually only a fringe component of the creative classes and engineers, scientists etc. are the core -- you know, because they actually create the stuff we all need.

What, you mean stuff like the atom bomb, twitter, engineered and processed food, DDT, the iron maiden, golf paraphernalia, cincrete, personal hover crafts, snow throwers, indoor ski slopes, glossy screen macs, Olestra, theme parks, televisions in headrests, programmers that try to predict market trends? I am not saying there is not a lot of very useful things out there, but a bad song or painting can't destroy the world. At least I haven't heard or seen one that can. Yet?

[ExitStageSouth]

You must be a barrel of laughs at a party....

I wasn't aware that every paragraph in every post was being judged by how "fun" it makes the poster look. If you're happy for art-school grads to claim ownership of the word creative, tattoo "nerd" across your forehead and sit in the corner working out where on the autistic spectrum you must fit just because you know how computers work, go ahead. Sorry for interrupting.

[stellachiara]

Science creates not just things we need, but things we like and that make life fun, just like art gives us spiritual food and pleasure. Anything can be turned to bad or questionable ends, though -- Hitler, Stalin, and Mao sure used art and music to promote their murderous plans, and many racist groups create images and music used to denigrate other groups. No one and nothing gets to escape karma on this earth.

[eassae]

Anyway, OT please.

...

[Philip10]

1. The whole world hates America.
2. All of America hates New York.
3. All of New York hates Brooklyn.

(I wish I were exaggerating by much, but I'm not.)



1. America thinks the whole world owes it a living
2. New York thinks all of America owes it a living
3. Brooklyn thinks all of New York owes it a living

I wish I were exaggerating by much, but I'm not.

[Tesall]

I wasn't aware that every paragraph in every post was being judged by how "fun" it makes the poster look. If you're happy for art-school grads to claim ownership of the word creative, tattoo "nerd" across your forehead and sit in the corner working out where on the autistic spectrum you must fit just because you know how computers work, go ahead. Sorry for interrupting.

Apology accepted.

[stellachiara]

Owes it a living? I think you have not spent much time in America, let alone New York or Brooklyn. I can think of a lot of valid criticisms of any of those places, but "thinks others owe it a living" is definitely not one of them.

[eassae]

I admit I took part in derailing this thread, but can we please get back to the original topic. It seems I am not the only one with the issue in the original post so it could be helpful to those people and also those thinking of moving to NZ.

I am more than happy to continue the battle of the creatives and what Brooklyn does or does not expect from the world in the Lounge.

[Warhoon]

Hi there,

It has been a long time since I posted on this forum...about three years in fact. The last time I visited was when I was in the process of moving to NZ (from the U.S.). The Executive Summary is that I made it and am living and working in Wellington. In recent months, I have started thinking it was time to drop in more often on the boards, sort of my 'duty' as an expat to share my story and impressions on life in NZ. Which, I should warn :clap is not always rose-tinted.

Eassae, I have experienced the same phenomena ("cold shoulder") that you describe on many occasions, and in a range of situations. Sometimes it was work related or in a professional context, but just as often could occur in a social context. Of course it's impossible to say that the root causes are the same in every instance, but generally the issue (for me) does seem to revolve around the American approach vs. the NZ approach.

What are these approaches, and how do they differ, I (suspect that) hear you asking? Honestly, I really don't know. Oh, I can point out the usual things about Americans being 'full-on' and Kiwis being subdued. They are stereotyped by both sides all the time but in reality I rarely see one side or the other behaving exactly according to 'type'. This is what makes it so hard - you really don't know HOW to behave sometimes! After a while, you realise that you just have to be yourself, and let the chips fall where they may. I realise that's not the easiest advice to swallow when you are going through it.

I know what you mean - paranoia does creep in after a while. It's hard not to when you have applied for 30+ jobs, gotten several interviews, but never gotten hired. Well, that's not entirely true - I have landed two jobs, but in both situations it was immigrants doing the hiring (an Aussie and an American expat). I honestly believe that I'd still be looking for work if only Kiwis did the hiring. It may sound paranoid, irrational and silly...but it's how I feel. On rare occasions when I had let my guard down, or had too much to drink :cheers, I have told Kiwis this, and they say "yeah, you're right. We're xenophobic." Then they laugh. Haha - hilarious!

Speaking for myself, I can say that Wellington is hard on the self-esteem and not an easy place to find work as a migrant. It's got heavy dosages and an almost equal mix of insular, black-wearing bureaucrats and self-important, black-wearing artistes. It's frankly hard to find people here that will take you at face value and give you a shot. They do exist - I promise - but it takes the ultimate patience and perseverance to find them.

Someone else commented that Kiwis have their own social networks, and I agree this is very true. Put simply, they don't need nor particularly want any migrant friends added to the mix. The only Kiwi friends that I have are those that have lived abroad and returned to NZ later in life, and were looking to make new friends themselves. Even they themselves have commented on how hard it is to make friends here, forcing them to join forums and online social networks (like Meetup) to get out and meet people.

It could be just your Americanisms that put Kiwis off. Again, I'm generalising, but there's no denying that we're everyone's favourite punching bag when it comes to unrestrained (and often unsubstantiated) criticism.

Americans are so often criticized for never getting out and seeing the world and trying harder to be global citizens. It's just too bad that when we do, we're not given at least a little bit of credit for the effort. To be honest, I sometimes envy my insular relatives back home who never go anywhere or suffer from wanderlust as I do. Their experiences are limited, yes, but their lives are simpler and probably just as fulfilling in their own way.

I was so excited about coming to New Zealand. It was my first time living abroad, and I was soooo ready for new experiences. Change wasn't only anticipated, it was welcomed - and I looked forward to embracing a new culture and hoping it embraced me back.

I am not the stereotypical American - even before I came to NZ. I'm humble, relatively quiet, and don't brag too much even when I deserve to. And yet, every time I open my mouth and they hear the accent I can see a sudden twinge on the face of the other person...a sort of instant decision-making that's going-on about me. I am judged as an American, with all the baggage that comes with that, whether it's fair or not. I am instantly at a disadvantage, and have to work extra hard to make up for it - but not TOO hard, or it will look like I'm being a pushy American. I understand now that this is what it means to be an American living abroad, and it will always be that way no matter what other country I'm in.

This falls under the category of good ol' fashioned whinging to some. An Aussie friend pointed this out to me and told me to "fight back" and not to take any crap about my nationality. But, it's not that simple. You see, Wellington is a teeny-tiny little town (sorry folks, it's true) where everyone knows everyone. I am not exaggerating to say it's 1 degree of separation, often less, between people in similar fields. If you don't like someone, well, that's too bad cuz you can't say or do anything about it without burning every bridge in town. My Oz friend - he can just go back home. It's just across the ditch, and he doesn't like it hear anyway! Heck, he's just looking for an excuse to get out. I respectfully declined his advice. ;)

Anyhow - what am I complaining about? I mean, it's their country. And this is paradise! Warm and sunny, t-shirts and jandals in the winter! Career death and general loneliness is a small price to pay for that, right? Besides, I'm an immigrant. If I don't like it, I should go home.

The good news for those that feel that way is that many of us probably do. I am genuinely sad for New Zealand in that it must lose so much talent and passion in the people who come here hoping for a new life, new possibilities, ready to make a positive contribution and it just turns out to be too hostile to tolerate.

~W

[cani]

Well written, great post:clap

Kristina

[petri]

Nice post!

Americans are so often criticized for never getting out and seeing the world and trying harder to be global citizens. It's just too bad that when we do, we're not given at least a little bit of credit for the effort.

That's one of the problems -- a lot of people out there don't think that such a effort needs to be credited. One doesn't need to get credit for the normal things one should be doing.

One of the things that make americans americans is the way they cheer and give credit to pretty much anything. I follow occasionally one another forum and most of the people are americans -- sometimes a person posts a crappy photo and gets cheers from the fellow americans about the lovely photo while I think someone could tell this poor fellow that he or she should learn a bit about photography (like turning auto-focus on). But I do keep my mouth shut most of the time ;-)

[Warhoon]

That's one of the problems -- a lot of people out there don't think that such a effort needs to be credited. One doesn't need to get credit for the normal things one should be doing.

Point taken. Let me elaborate:

By 'credit' I wasn't suggesting it need to be particularly overt. I'm not looking for applause, cheers or slaps on the back. Just holding back some of the obvious distaste for my home country would be enough for me - particularly while they are eating McDonalds fries, listening to Eminem on their iPod, talking about the latest episode of Lost, wearing Nike shoes and otherwise supporting the country they so vehemently disagree with. It's fashionable to dislike America - I get it. But hypocrisy is something that really gets me wound up.

One of the things I often point out when discussing these issues is that it's often generalising. Again, I want to point this out because the fact is that *most* Kiwis I meet and talk to are fine to me. What I am talking about is the cumulative and demoralising effect of seeing your homeland bashed in tiny increments. It might be overheard on the bus, or on an advertisement, or in the news. After a while, you feel obliged to defend America because it's tied to defending yourself. It is who you are, for better or worse. And when people generalise and get it wrong, you are in the surprising and annoying position of feeling like you have to correct them. Except, you can't, because your hands are tied behind your back. You need them more than they need you - it's a fact - and that means you just grin and bear it.

One of the things that make americans americans is the way they cheer and give credit to pretty much anything.

I respectfully disagree. Yes, American media culture is by nature overt and sensational. But to say all 350+ million of us are easily impressed is hardly fair. The fact is that America could not have accomplished the things it has, good and bad, over the course of it's history if there weren't critical thinkers and intelligent people in our society. To be honest, I find New Zealanders to be much more accepting of lower standards, and much more likely to cheer those who don't deserve it. I have seen many instances of people failing to deliver on work projects, for no good reason, and not being held to task. Their managers just say 'she'll be right' or 'good attempt' and everything keeps going like nothing had happened.

This morning on the news, the broadcaster said that the reason Michael Jackson's funeral was such a big deal in the U.S. was that all Americans are "external" and that we have "no inner light". Those are exact quotes. I find these comments particularly rich considering that it's a Kiwi news programme which has been airing M.J. news for days as though he were one of their own. Kiwis like to think, and say, that they are different from Americans. But the truth is that in many ways they are exactly the same.

[Warhoon]

I feel like I may have derailed the post again with my last comment, which was not my intention...so quickly back to the issue of feeling paranoid...

In American political terms, I am a white, male liberal democrat. As such, I am sympathetic to most ideologies that conservatives would call "leftist". I believe strongly in civil rights for all, regardless of race, colour, sex, age, religion or sexual orientation.

I truly thought I understood what it meant to be discriminated against, but I really didn't have a clue until I came here. Now I am beginning to grasp what it must be like to be a black man, and not knowing if the person on the other side of the hiring table doesn't like you for unfounded reasons. Not that I can truly understand what it's like to be discriminated against based on race or colour - that is much more complex - but what I'm talking about it not knowing.

In these situations, you cannot prove anything, and if you asked the other party they would vehemently deny it. Nobody wants to be called a bigot, or a racist. Some people may not even realise they make decisions based on these factors - it's just second nature, or a deeply rooted belief system that guides their actions.

So, yes, in this way it can make it very hard to know what ground you are standing on...and it can make you paranoid.

[JandM]

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain. You certainly give a clear picture of how it feels to be you.

It's tough to be an individual, held answerable for the culture, attitudes and politics of your home country, over which (of course) you have no control - I've had this experience as a Briton in Europe.

[eassae]

Excellent posts Warhoon,

Described much of what I have been feeling, with a lot of other things I didn't cover in the OP.:nice1

[SarahEDH]

Well done, Warhoon. Please stick around on this forum -

[dharder]

After a while, you feel obliged to defend America because it's tied to defending yourself. It is who you are, for better or worse. And when people generalise and get it wrong, you are in the surprising and annoying position of feeling like you have to correct them.

Give it some time. I am German, so know all about not being liked (and occasionally actively hated) on the base of my nationality, but I have found that by now, it really doesn’t bother me anymore. I haven’t lived in Germany for 13 years, and find I have enough distance from it to not apply all criticism to me personally and to be able to look at comments and stereotypes and laugh with the funny bits, shrug off the not fitting ones and call people up on the xenophobic ones. I do the same for comments about British people, btw.

I have found expats (this is me and others) to go through various stages in their relationship with the country they are from, and I have sometimes likened that to a teenager growing up and the relationship to his/her parents: you follow, you reject, you accept, you fight, you do all sorts of things until you get to a stage where you realise that you are an independent being, and that some traits of your parents are good, some aren’t, some you will regard as your own, some you won’t.

Not meant to sound preachy at all, even though on rereading this, it does come across like that.

Oh well. There is light at the end of the tunnel, honestly. After less than 10 years in the UK, I was able to follow the press coverage of an England vs Germany football match and not hyperventilate when faced with all the war references. If that doesn’t sound promising... :)

Daniela

[AliIsmailNZ]

Hi,

I heard a lot about the kiwi people and how friendly they are. Yes, I do say they are friendly. But to be honest with you since my arrival here 3 months ago, I did not make any friendship, although I am working, go the swimming pool with my daughter on a weekly basis.

Even I thought that the neighbours will knock my door and say hi to me. Some of them already noticed that we are moving and I am cleaning some stuff and washing the car outside. But nothing happens like this.

Don't know, probably I have to give it more time.

[NikT]

Even I thought that the neighbours will knock my door and say hi to me. Some of them already noticed that we are moving and I am cleaning some stuff and washing the car outside. But nothing happens like this.

Don't know, probably I have to give it more time.

Why don't YOU knock on the neighbours doors and say hi, instead of waiting for them? :yes :cool:
Can't do any harm can it?:nice1

Nick.:cheers

[newarrival]

I second that..., when we came her to Blenheim I also thought that some of the people we knew already might come around and say hi.., I think it is not because they don't want to, but because they don't want to invade your privacy.
At the first place we stayed in Dunedin as well as her we had some sort of "housewarming", even if we are just renting;) and I put invitations in all of the neighbours letterboxes. Quite a few came and really enjoyed meeting us (and vice versa) and enjoyed meeting some of their neighbours they did not know up to this point! It is not guaranteed that the contacts will deepen, but it is a start, I guess.
Another good idea is to sign up for courses, clubs....., anything where you are going to meet people who might share your interests.

But it takes time- and as was pointed pout before, we who come into the life of others who live a fulfilled life and have their circle of friends and family around cannot really expect that they only waited for us.....:cool:

[ers99w]

I didn't have time to read this whole thread, but I thought I'd share an insight that a friend here shared with me. His mom is Kiwi, and his dad is American. He has dual-citizenship, and spent about equal time in each country while growing up. Once he was out of Uni (which he went to in NZ), he split his time between the US and NZ. So he has a pretty fair view of the two cultures, I'd think.

He said that the major difference that he has noticed is that Americans celebrate people who are really good at their careers, and it is kind of a 'you make your own destiny' kind of place. that is, if you are good at what you do, you move up the ladder, and if you are not, you get left in the dust. It's a to-the-winners-go-the-spoils type of place. People are rewarded and egos are bloated when someone does well in the US.

However, kiwis are reluctant to let ANYONE get too far ahead of their peers, no matter how good at their jobs they are. conversely, they also don't let anyone get left too far behind. Therefore, when someone is really successful, other Kiwis try to bring them down or downplay their accomplishments and keep their egos in check; if someone is trying but is not very successful, they will encourage them and give compliments and try to help them. It's their way of evening the playing field, I guess.

maybe your experience and work is so amazing that they feel they need to put you in your place? Who knows. I've found the corporate culture here to be EXTREMELY too relaxed for my tastes, and this has resulted in some crazy drama where details of my personal life are announced to the entire company at the annual retreat. It is so very uncomfortable for that line to be so blurry. I'm doing major damage control to separate the two. This was never an issue in the US--probably because of legal issues, fear of being sued, etc. (i guess legal action can have its uses!). :)

[RJLink]

Thanks for sharing your friend's observation, and your own experience. I find these kind of differences really interesting.

I find a lot of nationalism kind of silly though. If people are going to be moving between different countries, they'll be better off leaving that behind.

[Tesall]

I didn't have time to read this whole thread, but I thought I'd share an insight that a friend here shared with me. His mom is Kiwi, and his dad is American. He has dual-citizenship, and spent about equal time in each country while growing up. Once he was out of Uni (which he went to in NZ), he split his time between the US and NZ. So he has a pretty fair view of the two cultures, I'd think.

He said that the major difference that he has noticed is that Americans celebrate people who are really good at their careers, and it is kind of a 'you make your own destiny' kind of place. that is, if you are good at what you do, you move up the ladder, and if you are not, you get left in the dust. It's a to-the-winners-go-the-spoils type of place. People are rewarded and egos are bloated when someone does well in the US.

However, kiwis are reluctant to let ANYONE get too far ahead of their peers, no matter how good at their jobs they are. conversely, they also don't let anyone get left too far behind. Therefore, when someone is really successful, other Kiwis try to bring them down or downplay their accomplishments and keep their egos in check; if someone is trying but is not very successful, they will encourage them and give compliments and try to help them. It's their way of evening the playing field, I guess.

maybe your experience and work is so amazing that they feel they need to put you in your place? Who knows. I've found the corporate culture here to be EXTREMELY too relaxed for my tastes, and this has resulted in some crazy drama where details of my personal life are announced to the entire company at the annual retreat. It is so very uncomfortable for that line to be so blurry. I'm doing major damage control to separate the two. This was never an issue in the US--probably because of legal issues, fear of being sued, etc. (i guess legal action can have its uses!). :)

Did you see Q&A this morning on TV1? They were talking about this as being a legacy form the early settler days. If you get a chance to watch it you might be interested.

Edit - I have found the show online at
http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a/q-and-s2009-e17-video-2837822

skip to chapter 3.