[sekilau]

Migrants 'lack help' to cope with losing jobs
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/employment/news/article.cfm?c_id=11&objectid=10582159


"Please raise your concerns with the German Embassy as the family have already been advised by Immigration New Zealand they are unable to assist."

The Christchurch-based group helped the family find food and shelter after they ran out of money.

Meanwhile, Philippine Consul-General Emilie Shi says she will be requesting an urgent meeting with Immigration Minister Jonathan Coleman because many migrant workers are not coping with the stress of losing their jobs.

Many are here on work-to-residency permits but as the economy tightens and Kiwis get preference for jobs, the migrants are often being refused visa extensions.

Ms Shi knew of one Filipino migrant worker who suffered a stroke after a failed residency application left his family in limbo, and another who had taken his own life.

[GrumpyGoat]

This is so tragic. I really worry about how exposed we are here without a good safety network. No family to fall back on in emergencies.

For us, if it truly fell apart, we do still have a rental house and land in the US to go back to but we don't want to ever return so it would have to be a death to force that issue. I pray we don't ever have to cross that bridge.

My prayers are for these people who have faced so much hardship.

"There, but for the grace of God, go I. "

That is my motto whenever I see someone struggling--it could just as easily be me.

Thanks for posting, Sekilau!

[Leo]

It is a real tragedy indeed :no and yet this news is merely the tip of the ice-berg... there's no count of how much destruction this economic downturn has wrought on the hopes, dreams and lives of people all over the world.

Consider this Hypothetical from the Government's perspective:
... If one had the last remaining life buoy, who should be saved first from the sea of near-drowning citizens, migrants, work-permit holders, etc.?

[sophiedb]

It's a horrible thing to say (and possibly too easy for me to say as am married to a Kiwi), but sometimes that's the risk you take with these visas. The NZ gov would probably come under fire if they "favoured" more immigrants with visa extensions, as well as if not.. tricky line.

I definitely agree with the last part though:

"Businesses are being lumped with further costs to retrain new staff, and many may not have the money or resources to do so in the current recession," said Mr Leong.

"By not renewing the work permits of migrant employees, what Immigration is effectively doing is removing the right of employers to keep the people they want, and possibly killing some local business operations as well."

If the immigrant in question is already jobless, I can kind of see their point, but if an established part of a successful team/business - lunacy!

[sekilau]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10579440
This is the first time i heard such alternative for WTR->PR applicant. Such alternative is not stated on the WTR offer letter. Does any one know if labour market-tested work permit is an official visa for WTR->PR to stay after 9th months of struggling?

Mr Annakin said a significant number of Filipino migrants entered New Zealand in the skilled migrant category with a work-to-residence visa, which gave them nine months to search for skilled employment.

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"It is made clear to people before they take up these visas that the outcome of their residence application depends on them obtaining a skilled job.

"If they are unable to find employment they should either return to their home country, or they may be able to apply for a labour market-tested work permit if they have lower skilled employment and there are not New Zealanders available to undertake the work."

[Angelonthemove]

We have PR but had to wait for 6 months of being out of work before we could get any help. You have to have PR 2 years before you can claim benefit, housing help etc.

We have lost all our savings paying bills and mortgage and are now on a mortgage holiday. We had agents to value the house this week as we do not want to become a mortgagee sale. You get to keep your debt and no house to show for it.

We may have 4 weeks left and then who knows, we may have to go back to the UK. I have just been turned down for a basic job at $37k as I am applying for everything and anything. I think my accent lost it for me. I have another interview next week but neither of these roles will even get us of the social payments, or it may make us worse off. But a jobs a job.

I would clean toilets but no I'm over qualified and even if you dumb down your CV then you do not get an interview. The last 3 interviews have been 2 interviews and test even a role play. Circa 150 applicants per role.

the worse thing is now we both feel despondent and depressed. Both in IT and have worked hard to get where we are and now to lose our savings it heart breaking.

We have halved the value of our house back home to get a buyer in hopes of selling and bailing us out. But our tenants moved out and wrecked the house and its off to the inlaws to help pay to mend it to sell the damn thing.

So warning to all is think carefully before you jack in any job anywhere. And don't rent out your house if you think you may be back real soon.

I keep reading people saying we are all doom and gloom here, try living on NZ$275 a week and see how much you like the view out of your window and the long white clouds. I love NZ but its been an expensive experience.

Sorry rant over.

By all mean PM if you want some real life opinions or share your comments off board if you prefer.

[globetrecker]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10579440
This is the first time i heard such alternative for WTR->PR applicant. Such alternative is not stated on the WTR offer letter. Does any one know if labour market-tested work permit is an official visa for WTR->PR to stay after 9th months of struggling?
From the article:
"If they are unable to find employment they should either return to their home country, or they may be able to apply for a labour market-tested work permit if they have lower skilled employment and there are not New Zealanders available to undertake the work." He said work permits would generally be declined if suitable New Zealanders were available to fill a vacancy - and the recession had resulted in an increasing number of Kiwis seeking employment."[QUOTE]

As far as I know, it seems as though this "labour market-tested work permit" isn't official as per se, but is possibly exact the work permit scheme that I'm in the midst of fighting (Essential Skills Permit/Policy). Everything has been tightened up due to this new permit. It took the place of the general work permit. I have a job offer (working in the job temporarily on a WHV) and the job isn't on the LTSSL so immigration is rejecting my work permit application based strictly on labour market testing, and as outlined in the above quote from the article. It is difficult in this economic climate to prove that there are no other Kiwi's to do these jobs, and a no-win situation for us needing a work permit or to renew one. We spoke with two separate immigration consultants (one who used to work for NZIS), and they said that in recent work permit meetings they've attended, immigration is telling them that very few people with job offers not on the LT or ST skills shortage list will ever get work permits due to them not qualifying for the labour market check (aka Essential Skills). And immigration is making it extremely difficult for immigrants to pass this labour market check, whether you you have a new job offer or are trying to renew your current work permit.

I understand where they are coming from in my situation (not wanting to take a job away from a Kiwi). What really gets me is that they are not letting people with current work permits renew them. That is heartbreaking for people with families and who have settled here with jobs, thinking all was well.

[globetrecker]

Here is a link from today's NZ Herald:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10582532

[dd311]

If the labor market in NZ is performing so badly, given the recession, why would the Labor Department, maintain same target number of approvals for this year ( 45,000 plus 5,000). Probably, what we pay at every stage of the application, helps humming the immigration department and the NZQA. After spending so much money and time, you, particularly Asians, end up having WTR instead of PR. With 9 months visa in hand, they would leave their families and job and headed to NZ for greener pasture. If they were unable to get the job, would be kicked out from the country. The current recession leaves very little room for WTR holds to find a job in the stipulated timeperiod. It’s a win win situation for NZI indeed. :wah

[Moorf]

The Kemps were on TV3 news tonight. I know Eileen through Facebook. I think that it's disgusting that they're being treated this way, they were invited to come here to do a job on the skills shortage list - they spent huge amounts to move here - and then when that job is no longer on the list they're left high and dry. I think at the very least they should be offered retraining so they can stay and work in another shortage area.

They were on the front page of The Press today, too.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/national/2564427/Immigration-nightmare

They still love NZ and hope to return to the UK to retrain - what perseverance.

Just wish there was something that could be done, I'm hoping the press and tv coverage may produce some goodwill from NZIS or perhaps a local employer.

Moorf

[sekilau]

If no one feel offended, i really want to make a poll here on counting the percentage of ethically asian applicant get WTR-> PR and the percentage get PR. I also hope those asian who get PR directly could share his/her experience with us on how to get PR.


If the labor market in NZ is performing so badly, given the recession, why would the Labor Department, maintain same target number of approvals for this year ( 45,000 plus 5,000). Probably, what we pay at every stage of the application, helps humming the immigration department and the NZQA. After spending so much money and time, you, particularly Asians, end up having WTR instead of PR. With 9 months visa in hand, they would leave their families and job and headed to NZ for greener pasture. If they were unable to get the job, would be kicked out from the country. The current recession leaves very little room for WTR holds to find a job in the stipulated timeperiod. It’s a win win situation for NZI indeed. :wah

[KelvinAng]

We have lost all our savings paying bills and mortgage and are now on a mortgage holiday.
...
We may have 4 weeks left and then who knows, we may have to go back to the UK. I have just been turned down for a basic job at $37k as I am applying for everything and anything.

Over the last two months I've been thinking about selling up and moving back, but a job interview last week for a temporary role seem quite positive so I'm hoping for the best. At the same time my motorbike on Trade Me has some interest and if it does sell it will definitely help keep me here for a couple more weeks. I'm also claiming tax refunds... which helped to pay two weeks' rent! I suppose if I don't get a job within the next two months then I will have no choice but to sell up and head back to Singapore - not that the economic situation there is better, but at least I can stay at my parents' as a last resort (I don't qualify for any government assistance in NZ).

In the mean time I keep to a weekly $50 budget on food, keep heating to a minimal (just one tiny room, and only up to 12C), and keep applying for suitable jobs. My weekly expenditure including all bills, food and rent is about $289 (I'm a single male).

[sekilau]

I am heading to auckland on coming week. your experience does remind me the difficulty it could be.
best wishes for you job interview.
Over the last two months I've been thinking about selling up and moving back, but a job interview last week for a temporary role seem quite positive so I'm hoping for the best. At the same time my motorbike on Trade Me has some interest and if it does sell it will definitely help keep me here for a couple more weeks. I'm also claiming tax refunds... which helped to pay two weeks' rent! I suppose if I don't get a job within the next two months then I will have no choice but to sell up and head back to Singapore - not that the economic situation there is better, but at least I can stay at my parents' as a last resort (I don't qualify for any government assistance in NZ).

In the mean time I keep to a weekly $50 budget on food, keep heating to a minimal (just one tiny room, and only up to 12C), and keep applying for suitable jobs. My weekly expenditure including all bills, food and rent is about $289 (I'm a single male).

[KelvinAng]

If no one feel offended, i really want to make a poll here on counting the percentage of ethically asian applicant get WTR-> PR and the percentage get PR. I also hope those asian who get PR directly could share his/her experience with us on how to get PR.

I've got residency instead of WTR, which presumably was because I had a job offer and was already working in NZ in that job at that time of application. Still, I almost didn't get anything at all (no PR, no WTR) because my degree was accessed as being less than qualified for the purpose of claiming points in IT employment.

[sekilau]

You get residency but you also said you almost didn't get anything at all (no PR no WTR). I am sorry that I do really get your meaning. So what is your current status in NZ? you mention you also need to back to Singapore. Are you force to leave due to visa/permit related issue?

Yes, I remember I was told that there are very little place in university so only very few perform extremely well on study can study in university. For other who perform a bit lower, they will study in poly-technic. Does it be the reason for NZQA gives you lower point on assessment?

Good luck and hope thing will go well
I've got residency instead of WTR, which presumably was because I had a job offer and was already working in NZ in that job at that time of application. Still, I almost didn't get anything at all (no PR, no WTR) because my degree was accessed as being less than qualified for the purpose of claiming points in IT employment.

[raghujadhav]

Next week i have interview for PR or WTR , i do not have IT job yet in NZ .
IF this is the situation i need to think over again & Again .
NZ seems not promising at all. What if i go and do not get any job for 3 months . Oh MY God 'thought' itself is scary

[CjChris]

This is a very interesting thread and quite a concern to many of us, unfortunately. :uhoh

I just read an article in the Herald about a survey of migrants carried out by the Dept of Labour and Statistics NZ. Apparently it is the biggest of its kind, tracking 7000 people over their first three years in NZ.

Based on some things written in this thread, I think it is relevant to add it to the conversation.

A few lines from the article:

"About one in four migrants had experienced at least one incident of discrimination. Those from Asia and in the "other" category were most likely to have experienced it in a public place or work setting."

And

"Vikesh Doolaub migrated from Mauritius with his wife and three children in April and his experience has been largely positive. "The only problem is finding a job," said the 36-year-old, who arrived under the skilled migrant category.

Doolaub has eight years of IT experience but is finding himself up against 50 to100 other applicants when he applies for jobs. "I think the employers are giving priority to the people who have New zealand experience. The problem is if nobody's willing to give me a job, how can I get New Zealand experience?"

You can read the full article here:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10582561

This is all getting really scary.

[ricky1981]

Afraid I would echo the comments on competition for jobs and favouritism towards Kiwis. I don't know that you can blame employers for that since I know from experience that the same thing happens in the UK even if it is meant to be illegal.

We came over with PR and right now we wouldn't come over with anything less. WHV and WTR just don't hold enough guarantees at the moment with the current job market. I have already heard some recruiters are not putting candidates forward who have WHV or WTR since the current stance of NZIS means employers can't be sure the employee won't be taken off them.

It's not a great situation and I have so much sympathy for those caught in the middle. I don't think things will change anytime soon though, the government will want to be seen to be "protecting its own" and depsite the long term negative impact from pushing migrants away, most voters don't think that far ahead so neither do politicians eager to be (re)elected.


Having said all of that, both I and my OH have jobs (we arrived jobless in May) and are loving NZ so it is still possible to make a go of things. We have both taken jobs that pay less, in my case I went from £70k/year to $50k/yr but we have enough money coming in and didn't come to NZ to be rich (just as well eh?!). My job is also a sideways step but right now it's better to be flexible, after all I can still keep an eye out for anything more suitable.

Good luck to everyone, try to stay cheerful and hopefully these current rough times will only be a memory soon.

[M-Squared]

"Vikesh Doolaub migrated from Mauritius with his wife and three children in April and his experience has been largely positive. "The only problem is finding a job," said the 36-year-old, who arrived under the skilled migrant category.

Doolaub has eight years of IT experience but is finding himself up against 50 to100 other applicants when he applies for jobs. "I think the employers are giving priority to the people who have New zealand experience. The problem is if nobody's willing to give me a job, how can I get New Zealand experience?"

You can read the full article here:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10582561

(bolding mine) I'm afraid that Catch-22 situation has always existed for every job I can think of. :( Sad but true! I'm sure every country on the planet is looking after its citizens first, then PRs, and sadly work permit holders, who are often exactly the kinds of people the country needs (they have the skills, otherwise why would they have been given the work permits in the first place?!) are being left until last. A bit daft, but in times like these, every country goes into self-help mode.

[sekilau]

Yes, I a lot of country will change their immigration policy in the time of recession. I heard the from House of common that, some MP suggest flowing passing market for immigrant application, which pass mark will increase in recession and lowered when the UK has labor shortage.

But take 1 minute to brows the following links

http://www.immigration.govt.nz/community/general/generalinformation/news/nzrp.htm
http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/general/generalinformation/news/NZRP2009-10.htm

New Zealand government has not changed the target number of immigrant in take on 07/08, 08/09, 09/10, regardless the recession. I don't know how does the government answer to following questions:

Possible question from NZ Citizen:
The government said "Kiwi first" for employment but the government does not reduce the number of immigrant in take. How does the government protect Kiwi has high priority on getting job? And also, how does the government going to tackle the unemployed immigrant, who may go to work for underground, overstay, rip off by employer and create threat to social stability?

Possible question from WTR/PR/WHV.
The government said it is the recession time and it put slogan "Kiwi first". However, the government is going to intake the same amount of immigrant to the country. these are contradictory. What philosophy does the government withhold? leaving the current WTR/PR/WHV holder in limbo, promoting "Kiwi first" slogan, and accept more immigrant to the country with a grand vision that "Immigrant is very important to New Zealand. Once we get out from recession, we need skilled immigrant to fill the shortage gap. Immigrant is good for our long term prosperity...bahbahbah"?

Does any NZ citizen, who have voting right, see the government contradictory on this issue?

(bolding mine) I'm afraid that Catch-22 situation has always existed for every job I can think of. :( Sad but true! I'm sure every country on the planet is looking after its citizens first, then PRs, and sadly work permit holders, who are often exactly the kinds of people the country needs (they have the skills, otherwise why would they have been given the work permits in the first place?!) are being left until last. A bit daft, but in times like these, every country goes into self-help mode.

[KelvinAng]

You get residency but you also said you almost didn't get anything at all (no PR no WTR). I am sorry that I do really get your meaning. So what is your current status in NZ? you mention you also need to back to Singapore. Are you force to leave due to visa/permit related issue?

Yes, I remember I was told that there are very little place in university so only very few perform extremely well on study can study in university. For other who perform a bit lower, they will study in poly-technic. Does it be the reason for NZQA gives you lower point on assessment?

Good luck and hope thing will go well

I am a permanent resident. Nobody is forcing me to leave, but due to the poor job market and high cost of living here I am considering returning to Singapore. Having PR status doesn't help if I can't afford to pay rent and put food on the table... Singapore doesn't have a blooming economy at the moment but at least being close to family and long-time friends help emotionally and financially.

The (very long) story of me nearly not being offered anything was previously posted here (http://www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18956). In short, I was lucky (both with immigration and job market) and probably came to NZ at a time where NZ really needed IT workers.

[Gran]

Not having any knowledge of the current system, I thought I would ask, is it possible to change from WTR to PR while one still has a job?

[IanW99]

Not having any knowledge of the current system, I thought I would ask, is it possible to change from WTR to PR while one still has a job?

Yes, if you have enough poiints to apply for PR then you can apply at any time - if not then you have to wait for the 2 years first.

Ian

[sekilau]

OK, thank you for your clarification.
At least you have RRV, which allow you return at any time in coming two years. Will the recession over in two years time? I don't sure but RRV provides you a window to leaving NZ for sometime and be back later on.

Thank you for sharing with us. So we know that if applicant secured a job in NZ, it is likely PR is granted instead of WTR->PR. Yet, it was the time NZ has IT worker shortage so it was possible to get a job before getting WTR/PR. Now, it is really really difficult for this to happen.

Good luck for your interview and wish you will receive call from them soon.:nice1
I am a permanent resident. Nobody is forcing me to leave, but due to the poor job market and high cost of living here I am considering returning to Singapore. Having PR status doesn't help if I can't afford to pay rent and put food on the table... Singapore doesn't have a blooming economy at the moment but at least being close to family and long-time friends help emotionally and financially.

The (very long) story of me nearly not being offered anything was previously posted here (http://www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18956). In short, I was lucky (both with immigration and job market) and probably came to NZ at a time where NZ really needed IT workers.

[Moorf]

I am a permanent resident. Nobody is forcing me to leave, but due to the poor job market and high cost of living here I am considering returning to Singapore. Having PR status doesn't help if I can't afford to pay rent and put food on the table... Singapore doesn't have a blooming economy at the moment but at least being close to family and long-time friends help emotionally and financially.

The (very long) story of me nearly not being offered anything was previously posted here (http://www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18956). In short, I was lucky (both with immigration and job market) and probably came to NZ at a time where NZ really needed IT workers.

Hey Kelvin, good to see you on the forum again - have replied to your PM :nice1

[macs gold]

Does any NZ citizen, who have voting right, see the government contradictory on this issue? Not just citizens have voting rights.
However as a passport holder I'm guessing your question is for people like me.

Its a balancing act for the Govt, with long term shortages still an issue in some sectors, and there being general skills shortages right up until the current recession kicked in. From a policy point of view it still seems to make sense to target getting the right immigrants (ie those under the skills category). NZIS are still assessing job offers, qualifications and experience, and may be 'drafting' more towards work permits rather than PR, and that means the risk falls more with the immigrant rather than NZ. Given global job market issues at the moment that is something for applicants to keep in mind.

[KelvinAng]

Good luck for your interview and wish you will receive call from them soon.:nice1

Thank you :)

Just to give you an idea how bad the job market is in my field (web development), one of the few interviews I've got was for a temporary developer role (contract up to Christmas), and for this interview I had to speak to a panel of three persons and the entire process lasted for about an hour. At the end of the interview I was told that they would contact my references listed in the application to have a chat with them if they decide to further consider my application.

I was surprised that the entire process would be so tedious considering it's for what's essentially a 5-month contract role that pays just slightly better than a fresh graduate's pay, but that probably means that they had so many applicants for the role they would like to pick the best candidate for the job.

[ExitStageSouth]

Thank you :)
I was surprised that the entire process would be so tedious considering it's for what's essentially a 5-month contract role that pays just slightly better than a fresh graduate's pay, but that probably means that they had so many applicants for the role they would like to pick the best candidate for the job.

An hour long panel interview and checking on your references doesn't sound particularly arduous to me, but perhaps it is for contract work. However, even if they had a lot of candidates they still wouldn't be interviewing any more than usual as the costs of doing that are pretty high. If you made the cut to get an interview, then that's an achievement in itself.

The pressure to be pickier doesn't come from having a lot of people to choose from, it comes from the generally tight economic environment. Many managers will be aware that they will find it hard to get budget for more hires or even replacement hires, so they need to be as sure as possible that the person they are picking will work out.

If there's an up-side to this it's that they will also be likely to want to hold onto anyone who is in place and doing a good job if they can, so contract extension or contract-to-perm moves are possibly more achievable (as long as the company isn't having to make more cuts).

[KelvinAng]

An hour long panel interview and checking on your references doesn't sound particularly arduous to me, but perhaps it is for contract work.

It's exactly that, it's a temporary contract developer work which, as far as I'm aware is a non-extendible contract role.

On another occasion with another company, before I was granted an interview, I had to sit for a technical "test" which was sent to me via email. Satisfied with my answers the interviewer called me for a discussion over the phone. That lasted for about 30mins. I suppose he is impressed enough to send through another two "tests" which involves writing some code so that he can have a feel of my coding style. He also made it known to me that the company will not be making a decision for a few weeks, so I'm of the opinion that he is hoping to get the best candidate for the job and is in no hurry to have the position filled.

Contrast this with the situation just a little over a year ago when I first arrived - I applied for two jobs in Christchurch, interviews were conducted over coffee, both made me a job offer, I accepted one of them and begun work the following week (which at that time I didn't even have my work permit sorted yet!).