[April]

Reading these threads have got me a little nervous about our impending move. So I just wondered if people could give a couple of the major positives and negatives on life in NZ - maybe it will help me weigh things up. Bearing in mind I am married to a New Zealander, we have no children and we will be mortgage free - if that makes any difference?

[JandM]

This is going to be a tough one to answer in limbo. What are the main things you like/dislike about your life in the UK?

[nickiware]

negatives - we were there for 2yrs, education didn't seem to be as good as the UK, lower salaries,taxes were higher, no tax allowance, cold damp houses in winter, long way from home, small choice for clothes/shoes in shops.
positives - a good long hot summer, friendly people, we will be living 2mins from beach when we return, could never afford that in UK, to be honest the weather and the beach do it for me, I am sick of these crappy english summers and having to keep my kids in because I am worried about the gangs of kids that seem to roam my local village now. The coffee as well, nice glass of white wine, also a long way from home ; )

[April]

Mortgage, teenagers, work, no free time, attitude, media, astronomical price increases, lack of motivation etc etc. Sorry forgot to say - weather!

Really though I just want everyones brief thoughts on what they like/dislike.

[Sheldon]

New Zealand is safe. South Africa is not.

[Scorpio]

Hello! I will be going to Christchurch for the first time next month. :) My travel companion is set on emigration, while I am going there for some exploration and self-searching. It has been a struggle thinking of leaving my comfort zone; and many times I did think about how difficult things may get. However, when things get me down, I like to recall one of my favourite poems by Robert Frost:

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

-------------------------------------------------------

Apart from the spectacular landscape and pleasant climate, I have yet to discover for myself first-hand all the positives in NZ. However there are push factors in my home country which have prompted my decision for self-discovery- a stressful education system, rat race, balmy weather! Just want to wish you the best possible outcome in your move to NZ. Hope things turn out positive for you! Good luck! :nice1


Reading these threads have got me a little nervous about our impending move. So I just wondered if people could give a couple of the major positives and negatives on life in NZ - maybe it will help me weigh things up. Bearing in mind I am married to a New Zealander, we have no children and we will be mortgage free - if that makes any difference?

[walshy]

positives:

Great clean, scenic place
safe
friendly
active lifestyle

Negatives:

Dreadful housing
High cost of living
Low salarys
Severe lack of choice

[benhila]

positives:

Great clean, scenic place
safe
friendly
active lifestyle

Negatives:

Dreadful housing
High cost of living
Low salarys
Severe lack of choice

This sums it up for us too. Just to expand on 'severe lack of choice' - this is not only with respect to consumer goods but also a limited job market which, in some fields, is decades behind.

Cheers

Hila

[britzy]

Negatives

Poor choice of food
Lower wages
High cost of gas and electricity
Poorer housing/cold houses
More expensive to live
Less oppurtunity to save
Long way from home/family and friends
Education not as good as UK

Positives

Friendly/helpful people
Beautiful scenery
More oppurtunity to live near the beach/rural locations
Great outdoor living
Cheaper recreational activties for kids
Less competition at school,kids encourages to be kids have fun
Cheaper petrol,car insurance,tax
Slower more relaxed pace of life

[Sam B]

Positives: -Less people, fantastic and variable mountainous scenery, easy access to sea and inland waterways, great schools and life for kids, interesting birds, friendly people, able to convert UK equity into larger rural property, Fabulous coffee, good cafe culture, less materialistic culture, MILES better weather, interesting plantlife, great beaches, easy driving, Maori culture, happy-go lucky attitude to life with great recreational opportunities.

Negatives: Much less diverse wildlife (no native mammals), most of mainlands have been denuded of native bush and are barren agricultural land, towns are ugly, sprawling and with no thought to town planning, lack of historical or culturally significant buildings, poor consumer choice, limited media, poor TV and poor choice of quality newspapers etc.

[beth&rich]

Positives:
- weather,
- fjordland,
- abel tasman,
- housing will seem cheap if you can bring a significant lump of equity out with you,
- easy access to beaches,
- relaxed attitude

Negatives:
- no history,
- no culture to write home about (in the sense of performing arts, galleries etc),
- terrible clothes shops,
- everything is expensive once you are earning Pacific Pesos,
- relaxed attitude (can drive you loopy if you need to get something done),
- you'd better be done with seeing the rest of the world: foreign travel is painfully expensive,
- in many areas you'll struggle to get decent broadband (makes it hard to keep in touch),
- freezing cold houses,
- poor customer service,
- poor healthcare,

[britzy]

It sounds like there are more negatives so why do people stay when its so expensive to live?

[Sam B]

Well, I find that there are more positives than negatives, and the positives are what I was looking for when I moved here. The negatives I can live with. I don't agree with all the negatives listed here, but I don't want to turn it into one of those threads where we all disagree with each other's experiences. Just take it all with a pinch of salt. Everyone is different, and everyone perceives things in a defferent way.

[Leo]

It sounds like there are more negatives so why do people stay when its so expensive to live?

Possibly because there's a always part in everyone of us that yearns to be... Free!!! :yes

Freedom from the Rat Race, insatiable materialism (...WAG culture?) and ostentatious "keeping up with the Joneses" lifestyle, congested motorways, cities, horrible weather, rising crime rates, oppressive tax regimes, need I say more?

I guess utopia doesn't exist on this planet (...or perhaps, I haven't yet found it) and that's when the negatives creep in...

Finally, each and everyone of us must decide whether one has indeed arrived at and settled down in one's "greener pasture/paradise" and thereon live the consequences of one's choice.

[April]

Thank you all for this - I'd like to hear if anyone disagrees with some of the negatives, as I'm sure people can explain their view points without arguing. It's been really useful so far and given me a bit more confidence as my husband is great with practical stuff and can make sure we keep warm in winter, plus we will be mortgage free so the money side wont be so much of a worry.

It's really nice to hear both sides without anyone getting really depressing - keep them coming - this is very interesting.

[benandclare]

It sounds like there are more negatives so why do people stay when its so expensive to live?

Some mornings I do wonder ..........



http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/bendylegsben/Gibbing004.jpg

View from our rental next door to our own " Utopia "

We find the positives more than weigh out the negatives but having said that they probably did for us back in the UK.

[5kings]

Positives:

Negatives:
- you'd better be done with seeing the rest of the world: foreign travel is painfully expensive,


This is one that is worrying my OH. We are not very well travelled due to having kids and no money, and there are several places we'd like to visit. I'd like to take the kids to Barcelona ( i have a ghost I need to lay to rest v.long story) and OH is desperate to go to New York.
Had anyone managed any travel after they arrived in NZ? As the driving force behind our hopeful move, I don't want it to mean we wont able to visit anywhere else, should we do all our travelling first?

Helen

[Arwen]

Possibly because there's a always part in everyone of us that yearns to be... Free!!! :yes

Freedom from the Rat Race, insatiable materialism (...WAG culture?) and ostentatious "keeping up with the Joneses" lifestyle, congested motorways, cities, horrible weather, rising crime rates, oppressive tax regimes, need I say more?

I guess utopia doesn't exist on this planet (...or perhaps, I haven't yet found it) and that's when the negatives creep in...

Finally, each and everyone of us must decide whether one has indeed arrived at and settled down in one's "greener pasture/paradise" and thereon live the consequences of one's choice.

I totally agree with all you have said in your post Leo DiCappucino. :nice1

I also agree with Sam B. For me personally, the negatives are really quite trivial compared to the positives of living in a beautiful country like this.

I feel very lucky indeed. :)

[Leo]

For me personally, the negatives are really quite trivial compared to the positives of living in a beautiful country like this.

I feel very lucky indeed. :)

Cheers Arwen :cheers <--- Cappucino, not beer!

Think I shall start making plans to head for Mangaroa Valley :laugh

[Arwen]

Definitely worth a visit if you're ever in the vicinity :nice1

However, don't expect a civit coffee if you ever pop in, I don't possess such strange beverages!!!!:exit:laugh

Will a red wine do????

[92Immigrant]

Thank you all for this - I'd like to hear if anyone disagrees with some of the negatives

I disagree with the really expensive bit. We are single income family of 4 living well on my modest salary. I cannot imagine that we'd be in the same position in the UK.

Dave.

[92Immigrant]

- you'd better be done with seeing the rest of the world: foreign travel is painfully expensive

I agree, NZ isn't the ideal travel hub :)

I only use my passport now for when we go to the South Island.

Dave.

[Sheldon]

You mean the main land!

[stellachiara]

I've only been here for a few weeks, but I haven't seen anything even close to severely limited choice, especially in food. Maybe it's because I'm in Dunedin, where there is a large international student population.

I think if you like anything cutting-edge, exciting, or edgy, New Zealand is not the place for you. If you like the exciting feeling of competition, fast-moving, worldliness, quickness or seamless convenience, New Zealand is not for you.

If you enjoy a relaxed pace, friendliness, simplicity, natural beauty, quirkiness, being a bit behind the times and being not quite connected to the rest of the world, and you don't mind giving up some of the other stuff I mentioned to get that, maybe New Zealand is the place for you. If you're not in a hurry and you don't mind doing some extra work to find what you need and want at a price that works for you, New Zealand might be for you.

For us, it's perfect so far. I can see how for other people with different preferences, different lifestyles and different needs, it wouldn't work -- maybe it would even be awful. I think a lot depends on individual circumstances. The real test for us will come when we start earning NZ$ -- that will basically make or break whether we stay here or not (we do NOT want to leave and are willing to do/give up a lot to be able to stay here and not return to the US).

In any case, I would take the two paragraphs I wrote above to heart if I were considering a move here.

[Sheldon]

Well said stellachiara - I couldn't agree more. My best mate lives in Tauranga, and is married to a kiwi girl. He said the following to me :People complain that New Zealand is too far from anywhere, it's too slow, and too small. To me those are all reasons why I love it so much." If you don't like laid back, remote and slow paced, don't move here. Rather stay in New York, Johannesburg or London.

[ExitStageSouth]

These threads always remind me of the various places I've lived and the enormous variation in response to those places.

Growing up in Pembrokeshire you could either spend your time cycling to the beaches, camping and surfing in the summer and enjoying cosy, low-key country pubs in the winter or you could be bored by the lack of entertainment, shops and general buzz (I did both at various times).

Living on the Med you could enjoy the seafood and fantastic salads or you could be fed-up because there was nowhere to get a decent curry. You could miss having lines of ale pumps or you could start enjoying wine. You could be aghast at the abysmal TV or go out and enjoy the cafe lifestyle instead.

I wouldn't claim to be the world's most positive person, but in essence I think you really need to assess exactly how important external things are to you and whether they are available in NZ or anywhere else you might go. If you don't think you can be happy without Gucci on tap then there's a question to be asked. (And I'm certainly not saying that you're shallow if you find there are some such things that you really need -- personally, I'm very concerned about Internet access)

Unfortunately, other people's views are difficult to interpret. What is a "poor choice of food"? All the veg on sale is mouldy? Only one type of potato on offer? No caviar in the supermarket? No decent ready-made meals? No roast hedgehog crisps? It could be meaningless to you or devastating (any family members picky eaters?)

Perhaps the better way is to create a list of your "must haves" and then ask if they will be a problem in NZ.

[JandM]

Excellent post, ExitStageSouth, and the system won't let me rep you for it.

[Flutterby]

i think exitstagesouth said what i think better than i could word it.
I mean i have heard people moan about the rubbish television(both kiwis and expats), but having not watched TV very much at all in the last 6-7 years (due to boredom of the rubbish on tv) i'm really not bothered about whats on the tv and infact while i was visiting last year i watched a very interesting and informative show on tv.
Also heard many comments about high cost of living, but at the end of the day you live within your means, so if you need higher pay to maintain your current lifestyle you have to make a choice; work more or get a better paid job OR give up something to make money better manageable, and i would dare to say that your opinion on the cost of living could be swayed by any one of the many factors that you yourself value far more than others

[Sam B]

Just one note of reassurance, both myself and my partner are inveterate internet addicts (he is in IT) and neither of us have had difficulties with access after the initial teething problems getting connected. And now here we are, living in the middle of nowhere, with a wireless broadband internet service from Rural Link, it's quite fast, we pay for a fairly generous allowance. It's fine.

[Arwen]

No roast hedgehog crisps?

I'm finding it difficult to live without my daily packet of Roast Hedgehog Crisps!!! :wah:laugh

Excellent post there ExitStageSouth. :nice1 I have managed to rep you for it. :nice1

Aside: JandM, I have never had a problem 'repping' folks, so I was wondering why you (and other posters I have read saying the same) are unable to rep sometimes???? Are you only allowed to give out so many 'rep' points in any given time???

[Sam B]

you can't rep the same people until you have gone off and repped a load of other people first. As I always find the same people utterly useful, I always get told I have to spread it round a bit before I can rep them again. Annoying.

[Arwen]

Ah, I see. Many thanks for clearing that up for me SamB. :nice1

[beth&rich]

Getting back on topic, and thinking in the long term, a big negative for me has to be the thought of getting seriously ill in NZ.

My understanding is (and please jump in if I'm wrong or missing anything) that if you find yourself really ill (even terminally so) and are unable to work, you don't get any form of incapacity benefit or long term sick pay if your partner earns more than $28k per annum?

However, if you get injured somehow (doing sport, at work , car accident etc.), you get ACC.

That thought terrifies me - I simply don't have the family support network here to cope in such circumstances without government assistance.

[akp713b]

5Kings: All the people I know do a significant amount of travelling from NZ. Just this year friends I know have gone to Vietnam, Thailand, Ireland, several Pacific Islands and Oz of course, Japan, the UK and South Korea.

A colleague at my school has done trips to Africa, Russia, Vietnam and Europe over the last 5-7 years on a teacher's salary. Even the caretaker is on a trip driving from London to Mongolia for a month right now while another visited the US and Japan over holidays and my boss went to Cambodia.

I don't know the situation in the UK, but to me the prices seem quite affordable. The US dollar was always so weak next to the pound and Euro that travel in Europe always seemed an expensive undertaking. It's the 27 hour flights to Europe that I find daunting now, but I still plan on seeing a destination in Europe, Asia, Africa and South America in the next 6 years, again on a teacher's salary.

[Tesall]

PLEASE ignore the people saying the education is worse. It might be in there experience, but that ois obviously anecdotal, in the studioes down, the NZ education system comes out significantly ahead of the the UK.
I agree with whoever said that you need tio make a list of what you look for in a country and then see if NZ ticks enough off that list.

And NZ did have a native mammal before man, a small bat.

[Sam B]

It has 2 species of native bat, but really, compared to Europe, in my opinion, the wildlife is not as varied.

[April]

I really appreciate all your thoughts and comments and have to say that it has really put my mind at rest. The 'negatives' don't really seem to be things that are of great importance to us, but the 'positives' are. Thank you all so much. Now if you could just turn your attention to my where to live thread that would be very helpful!

Seriously I do appreciate you taking the time to help on this one. Thanks again.

[stellachiara]

As far as education goes, my experience in tertiary education has been interesting. I find that everything feels more relaxed and FAR less competitive than in the United States. That relaxed and non-competitive feeling would legitimately be considered a red flag in the US, indicating a low-quality situation. But here it is just not so. The lecturers are as knowledgeable as any I had in the states, and my classmates seem as well-educated or better than my classmates in the states. All the proper learning is taking place -- it just feels different. Maybe if you're used to being in that hyped-up, competitive, shove-all-the-knowledge-into-the-brain-by-force mode, it feels like nothing is happening, when in reality, it is.

I don't know how/if that is echoed in primary and secondary education. I'm sure there are some bad schools, as there are everywhere else. But I have to think that in some cases, something similar to my experience may be going on.

[Nathan]

Positives: the beach!, fresh citrus in the yard, fabulous sunrises and sunsets, corn fritters with avocado, huts on the tracks, did I mention the beach?!, generally slower pace.

Negatives: music, native species annihilation, generally poor choices of manufactured goods, poor driving habits/laws, petty crime, cold houses

[Arwen]

PLEASE ignore the people saying the education is worse. It might be in there experience, but that ois obviously anecdotal, in the studioes down, the NZ education system comes out significantly ahead of the the UK.



I don't think people should ignore this fact at all Tesall. Yes many experiences are anecdotal, but they are still real experiences affecting real children and parents.

Like anywhere else in the world, there is a good and bad side to everything. In the UK, we found our local village school in Cheshire was absolutely superb, and we went for the same type of school for our kids when we arrived here in Wellington three years ago.

There was a choice of two village schools just up the road from us, but both have failed to hit the educational standards we were used to in the UK. The quality of teaching was abysmal, with one teacher confiding in me that to get through teacher training college was an absolute breeze, and (in his words) there were so many idiots there!!!:eek::exit

That's not to say that others have found their local NZ village school to be awful, I really hope they haven't, but ours was and as a consequence we are now having to pay for integrated education for our three children.

This was not on our 'budget' list when we made the move, and as a result we have had to take out an extension on our mortgage to ensure all three of our children receive the kind of education we want for them.

[Tesall]

I don't think people should ignore this fact at all Tesall. Yes many experiences are anecdotal, but they are still real experiences affecting real children and parents.

.

It isnt a fact, and thats my point. The only factual paper comparing systems as a whole has stated the exact opposite. The OP was looking for advice and I find it annoying when people mascarade anecdotal personal experience as a fact for entire systems when the reality is PROVEN to be the opposite. People might not like to think UK school systems are inferior, but thats what the credible reports say.

I live in a warm, insulated, well built house, shall I therefore state NZ housing is great based on my one person experience? I can only imagine the reaction if I did!

[Ngeru]

I wouldn't claim to be the world's most positive person, but in essence I think you really need to assess exactly how important external things are to you and whether they are available in NZ or anywhere else you might go. If you don't think you can be happy without Gucci on tap then there's a question to be asked.

That's a real tough one to comprehend though, you don't often realise how important things are to you, until they are no longer there. An example lots of people quote to justify the move is seeking a 'quieter', more 'laid back' pace of life. If you are not used to that, have no experience of what that might look or feel like in reality, day after day, it can be ultimately frustrating. It's one thing to think you might like things to be a bit slower, because of particular stresses in current daily life, and a whole other ball game when you've got a problem and you're faced with the 'she'll be right' attitude and you're really wanting or needing something done right now.

One might easily live without ready meals (or whatever) on tap 360 days of the year, but the the other five days of the year when you're really stretched or not up to it, you really feel it. The days when you can't find a pair of trousers in the shop that are in a style you like, that fit you, it can seem like an uphill struggle and ten times more difficult than it needs to be.


Perhaps the better way is to create a list of your "must haves" and then ask if they will be a problem in NZ.

At the end of the day, all any of us 'must have' is somewhere to live (preferably warm and dry with hot and cold running water), an income, food to eat, some clothes to wear and schooling for the kids, all of which are of course available in NZ. The rest of it is trivia, icing on the cake and 'nice to haves'. Most of the nice to haves are available in NZ, provided you have the money to pay for them, same as anywhere really. However, the priorities here are somewhat different and you will inevitably spend a larger percentage of your income on the necessities, rather than the frivolous and it does take a while to make that shift in mindset.

For me a big change was stopping going to the shops, because I know they won't have anything I like or can afford, so I no longer disappoint myself. I still have 'shopsick' temper tantrums when I have been to every shop in town to find a simple pair of black trouser; tried on twenty pairs and still walk away empty handed because I can't find any that aren't seventeen feet long, or cost $200 - knowing full well I wouldn't have this problem if only M&S was down the road. *sigh*

[Arwen]

Reply to Tesall:)


Ok I appreciate what you're saying about facts and figures and I know from your previous posts that you are no fan of sweeping statements and generalisations (neither am I and I do back you up on that). I perhaps should have used another word instead of fact.

However, if you are unfortunate enough to find your kids are in a school where the teaching is sub-standard and the only way out is having to pay school fees in an integrated or private school system, then knowing this beforehand and making allowances for it could be helpful. That was really all I was trying to say. It wasn't a cost my husband and I had budgeted for.

As for UK school systems, trust me, we have had our fair share of bad experiences with these too, and that's why I take the attitude that you come across good and bad things where ever you are in the world. The thing to do is just deal with it the best way you can.

As for your last statement:

'I live in a warm, insulated, well built house, shall I therefore state NZ housing is great based on my one person experience? I can only imagine the reaction if I did'!

If everyone was saying that most houses were freezing cold etc etc, I would be really glad to then read your opinion to help give me a more 'rounded' view that this might not be the case for everyone even though the facts and figures may tell me different.

[JandM]

It isnt a fact, and thats my point. The only factual paper comparing systems as a whole has stated the exact opposite. The OP was looking for advice and I find it annoying when people mascarade anecdotal personal experience as a fact for entire systems when the reality is PROVEN to be the opposite. People might not like to think UK school systems are inferior, but thats what the credible reports say.

I live in a warm, insulated, well built house, shall I therefore state NZ housing is great based on my one person experience? I can only imagine the reaction if I did!

The fact that measures of whole national systems state what you said doesn't wipe out each individual family's experience with the schools they've used (in whatever country), though, Tesall. They're not wrong to say, 'This is what happened to me.' Not all people giving their personal experiences are actually claiming something for the whole country on the basis of what happened to their child in their local school.

In fact, I'd think that if the OP wants some information about education that will help their eventual decision, the best thing they could probably do would be to post a thread asking for the views of people whose children are going through the local schools in the exact area where they're thinking of settling. I'm sure we all remember times in our schooldays when we did well, or not, and were happy, or not, due to the influence of particular teachers, and/or heads and their regimes. It's not the institution that succeeds, or fails the children in it - it's the people and their day-to-day interactions. So it matters if there's a good job being done right there, right now, and global statistics can't tell that.

[April]

I'm not really worried about the NZ education system as my husband and brother in law went through it and came out of it very well, and we also don't have children - yet!

Thanks for all the input though - much appreciated.

[Tesall]

The fact that measures of whole national systems state what you said doesn't wipe out each individual family's experience with the schools they've used (in whatever country), though, Tesall. They're not wrong to say, 'This is what happened to me.' Not all people giving their personal experiences are actually claiming something for the whole country on the basis of what happened to their child in their local school.





Except that is not what they said. And thats my point.

[JandM]

Well, I'm sure everybody has now picked up your point about statistics, so any reader can now compare figures, or children, as they'd rather.

[Familyofmonkeys]

Positives....

Less people, and more places to go when you want to get away from people too.

Better Weather for most of the year.

Beautiful accessible scenery in many areas of the country, with no tacky tourist shops at every beach trying to sell you plastic tat made in China.

Relaxed work environment...if you're a professional from abroad used to a different work culture there are more opportunities to shine etc, current economic situation obviously changes this a bit short term though.

Better environment for kids...more freedom, safer, free activities and access to the outdoors.

Never had to wait long for a Dr appoinment...have always been seen within 20 minutes even without an appointment.

Medical prescriptions lower for many generic items that UK.

Less choice of shops = less time shopping. If you really need something enough, it is possible to order most items such as clothing etc on-line from abroad.

People don't, on the whole, seem to have lost all knowledge of many crafts here. Not only have I noticed more people doing their own DIY, but skills like knitting, sewing and home baking seem much more common. Growing veggies in also much more common here, with many people being very knowledgable about this.



Negatives

HOUSING....really poor housing stock in many areas, very little choice of affordable well insulated, well heated properties when compared to UK. This is definitely the biggest negative factor about NZ for us, and I can fully understand why many people return to their home countries after having the live in a cold NZ house because they can't afford anything better quality. Lovely as NZ is, I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life living uncomfortably in a cold, partially heated house.....luckily we have the means to build somewhere. Some people can adjust well to this, others can't and it could taint their experience of life in NZ.

Interest rates far too high....houses may be cheaper, but when you consider interest rates it may cost you as much to service a morgage.

Less medical coverage than UK due to user paying for some services like GP, some treatments or surgeries, physiotherapy etc.....with a family this can really add up, and also if you are ill or get an injury not covered on ACC (recent personal experience here).

No equivalent of NHS dentist.....we've not seen a dentist for 2 1/2 years as can't afford it currently.

Serious lack of awareness about health and safety in many areas of life here, from shops to schools/kindy.....parents seem blissfully unaware that is it not safe for their 12 month old to be toddling around with a handful or marbles....it only takes a second for them to choke on one, or their two year old running around with a pair of scissors having not even been taught the safe way to hold scissors while walking. This doesn't mean I have problem with my 4 year old banging nails into bits of wood....as long as it is under adequate supervision.





I sit on the fence when it comes to education. There are some great things about the NZ education system such as the lack of pressure and stress, especially with younger children. But I also do not believe that very bright children are well catered for in many areas either. Early education is more skills based, which in some ways is a very good grounding, but on the other hand is not always stimulating enough for children who enjoy fact based learning styles. There is a lot of emphasis on sports...good for keeping fit and healthy, it's nice for kids to have the opportunity to try out a wide range of sports etc, but can be very excluding for children who don't enjoy sports or are not gifted in that area. There are more opportunities here for interesting trips and experiences compared to UK....camp, skiing, kids being involved with community activities etc, but this can also get very expensive when you have several children and it is expected your child will attend, rather than being optional. The donation is all but compulsory, and I completely disagree with kids selling chocolate for fundraising purposes as it does not promote healthy eating values. The other side of this is that it gets more parents involved with school life and can promote a good sense of community. I can't comment on secondary education as my kids aren't there yet.

[Tesall]

Well, I'm sure everybody has now picked up your point about statistics, so any reader can now compare figures, or children, as they'd rather.


Children or statistics? Actually they can choose to compare singular invidual childrens cases to judge an entire system or a comprehensive study of a large number of children in a wide spehere of criteria.

Maybe we could just collate a whole lot of individual childrens results in a universal study... no wait.. they have already done that.... but apparently that just makes them figures and not children anymore.


You seem determined to pick at a point I never made.

I actually agree with your point that people can state thier individual experiences about anything, you cant contradict someones experiences, it is when they make blanket claims for an entire system based on it and contrary the only comprehensive study that I get contrary.

[dharder]

As a disclaimer I'll say that this is not an attack on anyone in person, that this is not meant as an insult but the mere explanation of a logical problem which is called the 'deductive fallacy'. This is a technical term used in logic and rethoric, and certainly not meant to insult anyone.

In the case of the PISA study, it would go like this: we gave 100 students from NZ and 100 students from the UK the same test.

In NZ, 60 of those 100 achieved a higher result than a point decided on in the test (say 70%). In the UK, 40 of the 100 did. So you can say that more children in NZ did better than in the UK.

If you (no personal 'you') meet someone from NZ and from the UK, what can you say about their individual test results?

Nothing, as they might be from the 40 from NZ who did worse and from the 40 who did better in the UK. It is not possible to make correct assumptions about an individual by looking at a general statement/trend, in other words, to deduce that because 60 do better, they are all better.

Having bad experiences with an education system is in no way invalidated by a study showing that more children do better at one thing in one country than other children in another. Both experiences can quite happily co-exist.

All you can say is that statistically, children in NZ have a better chance (however, if one reads the study carefully, one will find that this doesn't apply to all children in NZ at all) of achieving a higher level in the PISA test than children somewhere else.

Daniela

[Tesall]

As a disclaimer I'll say that this is not an attack on anyone in person, that this is not meant as an insult but the mere explanation of a logical problem which is called the 'deductive fallacy'. This is a technical term used in logic and rethoric, and certainly not meant to insult anyone.

In the case of the PISA study, it would go like this: we gave 100 students from NZ and 100 students from the UK the same test.

In NZ, 60 of those 100 achieved a higher result than a point decided on in the test (say 70%). In the UK, 40 of the 100 did. So you can say that more children in NZ did better than in the UK.

If you (no personal 'you') meet someone from NZ and from the UK, what can you say about their individual test results?

Nothing, as they might be from the 40 from NZ who did worse and from the 40 who did better in the UK. It is not possible to make correct assumptions about an individual by looking at a general statement/trend, in other words, to deduce that because 60 do better, they are all better.

Having bad experiences with an education system is in no way invalidated by a study showing that more children do better at one thing in one country than other children in another. Both experiences can quite happily co-exist.

All you can say is that statistically, children in NZ have a better chance (however, if one reads the study carefully, one will find that this doesn't apply to all children in NZ at all) of achieving a higher level in the PISA test than children somewhere else.

Daniela

I agree entirely... well except for the last paragrpah.. but lets not quibble.

[ourquest]

Reading these threads have got me a little nervous about our impending move. So I just wondered if people could give a couple of the major positives and negatives on life in NZ - maybe it will help me weigh things up. Bearing in mind I am married to a New Zealander, we have no children and we will be mortgage free - if that makes any difference?

Even though it is threads in this forum which make you nervous, you appear to cope with this problem by requesting that members provide more posts in this particular thread. Do you really think they will provide any real relevance to your own circumstances, or anything new which you haven't read already?

My own suggestion is to distance yourself from the overload of information available on the internet, and try to decide what you would have done in terms of your impending move without it. It isn't that the information doesn't have value, but just that when you start analysing everyone's positives and negatives you are analysing them, not you. And it is you who makes your move, with your own set of circumstances.

Speaking of which, your own circumstances obviously make a difference...being mortgage free vastly changes anyone's perception of affordability, being married to a Kiwi immediately makes you more likely to adapt socially, and not having children is just simpler, as you can make your decisions entirely from your own (and partners) point of view. And this should of course make your decision easier.

If you are starting to listen to people's opinions who you know nothing personally about, then you are undermining your own capacity to make meaningful decisions.

Granted, it's certainly interesting reading through everyone's perceptions but I think it is better as entertainment than as a contribution to your own wisdom (with respect to your move), mainly because it will confuse you just as much as it will help you.

Personally, I am still uncomfortable with the concept of comparing a new country to one's old country and given the chance I would encourage others not to do it. I think it is because we didn't live in our old country thinking in terms of comparisons because we were just getting on with our lives, as you do. The best way to settle in a new country is to just get on with it, without comparing anything, much like after a few months you stop converting currency in your mind every time you buy anything.

As an analogy, someone who remarries would certainly not be wise to experience their new partner by making constant comparison with their own ex-partner. Countries, like people, are just different and you either get on with them or you don't, and over-analysing them misses the point of why you are with them.

The problem (or benefit) of this philosophy is that you cannot know how you will feel in a new country until you are there yourself. So given your circumstances it would seem like you are in a good space to give it a go. Best wishes for your own journey.
Questy.

[April]

Whilst I do appreciate what you're saying, I still find it useful to know the sorts of things that have made life difficult for people new to New Zealand. It is useful from the point of view of someone who has spent much time in the country but never actually lived there. I've found it reassuring to hear things that I already knew about but wasn't particularly worried about, and not to hear anything new that would be very worrying. Additionally, it has given me back a sense of reality about the move and certain issues to bear in mind when we get there - the reality perspective is something that is easy to forget about when you're at the planning stages and conjuring up wonderful images in your mind.

But as you so rightly say - we will make our own decisions based on our own requirements, likes and dislikes, however the pitfalls/downsides etc are always good to remember.

[sweetpea]

My own suggestion is to distance yourself from the overload of information available on the internet, and try to decide what you would have done in terms of your impending move without it.

And, say, you follow this advice, get to New Zealand and find there is something here that is an absolute dealbreaker for you. You'll then have to listen to people tell you that you should have done your research beforehand. :eek: Ask away, I say.

-----

Anyway, I should say something more constructive, shouldn't I?

Positives:
My uni program is quite cool, and laid back as far as vet school goes.
Most things here are more laid back. People don't sweat the small stuff (except if it's coins in their pocketbook!)
People here are generally friendly and pleasant in public.
A larger proportion of people here seem willing to stop and give you a hand if you need it (when you get a flat tire, for instance).
Lots of nice places to take a walk.
Some gorgeous scenery.
Rent in Palmerston North is cheap.

Negatives:
Poor quality housing and consumer goods (the flip side of the laid back attitude).
Low wages, high cost of living.
Some people will try to rip you off after hearing your accent and assuming you're a rich foreigner.
The progressive government may lead you to think populace is also progressive. That would be a dangerous assumption.
Provincialism is rife in all its manifestations.
"Clean and green" is nothing more than a marketing ploy. If NZ were more populated, they would have poisoned themselves long ago.
Callousness towards animals more common here (lots more backyard dogs; euthanasia of dogs and cats for not-terribly expensive, treatable conditions is more common; if you know what to look for, you can drive around and see neglect/starvation of too many farm animals).

[ourquest]

And, say, you follow this advice, get to New Zealand and find there is something here that is an absolute dealbreaker for you. You'll then have to listen to people tell you that you should have done your research beforehand. :eek: Ask away, I say.

-----

Anyway, I should say something more constructive, shouldn't I?

Positives:
My uni program is quite cool, and laid back as far as vet school goes.


Please note in relation to your comment above that I am not advocating not using the internet at all. That would be patently dumb of me wouldn't it? After all, um, what am I busy doing now? Instead it is a suggestion that once the research is done, adding more and more research can be counterproductive to a decision making process. Think of it as continuing to research once you've just about completed a thesis. If you know your subject by then (which you should) then all you end up doing is confusing the issue and giving yourself unnecessary doubts as to (in this case) the layout, content or conclusions of your thesis.

[ourquest]

Whilst I do appreciate what you're saying, I still find it useful to know the sorts of things that have made life difficult for people new to New Zealand. It is useful from the point of view of someone who has spent much time in the country but never actually lived there. I've found it reassuring to hear things that I already knew about but wasn't particularly worried about, and not to hear anything new that would be very worrying. Additionally, it has given me back a sense of reality about the move and certain issues to bear in mind when we get there - the reality perspective is something that is easy to forget about when you're at the planning stages and conjuring up wonderful images in your mind.

But as you so rightly say - we will make our own decisions based on our own requirements, likes and dislikes, however the pitfalls/downsides etc are always good to remember.

Fair enough reasoning, and good on you for keeping it in perspective.

In terms of content of this thread, comments by others such as "horrible housing" remains, in my opinion, grossly subjective. Had you not been here before you would now have a picture in your mind that does not include the well built, well located and relatively spacious houses on good sized sections which do exist in sufficient numbers to find one for yourself.

Similarly, comments such as "better weather most of the year" is equally misleading from a rational and statistical point of view, because better than where? I suppose the assumption is that it is better than the UK, but not everyone reading this forum is from the UK. This is where research can go off track a bit. There have been plenty of members on this forum who have arrived here and been surprised by many aspects, and these are people who have done loads of research. They have been researching opinion as much as fact though, and this has caused the confusion.

[bobo]

PLEASE ignore the people saying the education is worse. It might be in there experience, but that ois obviously anecdotal, in the studioes down, the NZ education system comes out significantly ahead of the the UK.


Where did you get your education :D

[bobo]

The only factual paper comparing systems as a whole has stated the exact opposite. The OP was looking for advice and I find it annoying when people mascarade anecdotal personal experience as a fact for entire systems when the reality is PROVEN to be the opposite. People might not like to think UK school systems are inferior, but thats what the credible reports say.


Which paper is this, and who did it. Was the study based against all of the UK’s educational systems, as for example Scotland has its own?

Why is this one the only factual paper, I am reasonably confident that there will be more than one report of this nature.

How do we know its factual/accurate or that the criteria used did not bias the results.

I read a news article about the low numbers (compared to the rest of the developed world) of school leavers going on to further education. (I will try to find article)

[IanW99]

Which paper is this, and who did it. Was the study based against all of the UK’s educational systems, as for example Scotland has its own?

Why is this one the only factual paper, I am reasonably confident that there will be more than one report of this nature.

How do we know its factual/accurate or that the criteria used did not bias the results.

I read a news article about the low numbers (compared to the rest of the developed world) of school leavers going on to further education. (I will try to find article)

You can find all the details in PISA 2006 results (http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,3343,en_32252351_32236191_39718850_1_1_1_1,00.ht ml).


The Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) is an internationally standardised assessment that was jointly developed by participating countries and administered to15-year-olds in schools.

The survey was implemented in 43 countries in the 1st assessment in 2000, in 41 countries in the 2nd assessment in 2003, in 57 countries in the 3rd assessment in 2006 and 62 countries have signed up to participate in the 4th assessment in 2009.

Tests are typically administered to between 4,500 and 10,000 students in each country.

Seems to be a pretty good report on the subject (IMHO) and no it doesn't treat Scotland separately (AFAIK all results would have been combined for UK).

Ian

[dharder]

Which paper is this, and who did it.

This is the PISA study, a study of educational systems in 30something OECD member countries. It is done every three years with different emphasis each time, the first time round was literacy, then numeracy, etc.

You can read it here: http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2987,en_32252351_32235731_1_1_1_1_1,00.html

I have first hand experience of four different educational system as a student and/or a parent, and am very interested in those comparisons. I have spent quite some time reading this/about this, which is why I feel rather confident in contradicting some (by no means all) of Tesall’s conclusions (:)).

It is a very comprehensive study, and I think currently the one and only out there that comes close to attempting a non-biased study of different educational systems. It tries to deal with a number of issues that you come across, such as completely different systems in some of the member states, it looks at socio ecomonic settings as well as the migration background of the participating students.

If there is a study that can give an overall impression of trends in the varying countries, then this is teh one. I have also, on the whole, found the results tying in with my own anecdotal experiences of students from all over the world (which of course doesn't invalidate experiences that prove the contrary). As for its limitations, I think I went into that sufficiently in my post above.

One still has to look at the personal circumstances in any given country to figure out where one’s own children will fit into the bigger picture of the study (much like any other study).

Daniela

[Nathan]

Ya gotta wonder why a country's reading score would drop nearly 40 points in 6 years when the range of scores is less than 200. Another country's score increased 30 points in the same time frame. Did you see anything in the analysis to explain that magnitude of change?

[Tesall]

This is the PISA study, a study of educational systems in 30something OECD member countries. It is done every three years with different emphasis each time, the first time round was literacy, then numeracy, etc.

You can read it here: http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2987,en_32252351_32235731_1_1_1_1_1,00.html

I have first hand experience of four different educational system as a student and/or a parent, and am very interested in those comparisons. I have spent quite some time reading this/about this, which is why I feel rather confident in contradicting some (by no means all) of Tesall’s conclusions (:)).

It is a very comprehensive study, and I think currently the one and only out there that comes close to attempting a non-biased study of different educational systems. It tries to deal with a number of issues that you come across, such as completely different systems in some of the member states, it looks at socio ecomonic settings as well as the migration background of the participating students.

If there is a study that can give an overall impression of trends in the varying countries, then this is teh one. I have also, on the whole, found the results tying in with my own anecdotal experiences of students from all over the world (which of course doesn't invalidate experiences that prove the contrary). As for its limitations, I think I went into that sufficiently in my post above.

One still has to look at the personal circumstances in any given country to figure out where one’s own children will fit into the bigger picture of the study (much like any other study).

Daniela

Sorry what statement from the report have I made that was wrong? Feel free to contradict, but be specific, otherwise you arent contradicting, you would just arguing nothing for no reason. The results most definately do not tie in with your repeated claims about the NZ education system.

[Tesall]

Which paper is this, and who did it. Was the study based against all of the UK’s educational systems, as for example Scotland has its own?

Why is this one the only factual paper, I am reasonably confident that there will be more than one report of this nature.

How do we know its factual/accurate or that the criteria used did not bias the results.

I read a news article about the low numbers (compared to the rest of the developed world) of school leavers going on to further education. (I will try to find article)

Try actually reading about the report.....

[dharder]

Sorry what statement from the report have I made that was wrong?

I didn’t say that you said anything factually wrong about the study, I said that I would contradict some of the conclusions you seem to draw from the study. I draw different conclusions in some cases.

As a specific example, in my post above I said that if you (not the personal you) read the report carefully, you will find that acutally, not all children in NZ are performing statistically better. You (Tesall) disagreed with that statement.

Now, in some of the further analyses of the results that look at the socio ecomonic background and the influence that has on the likelyhood of good test results, you will find that NZ does very badly in the international comparison. In reality, that means that if you have well off, well educated parents, your education will be better than if you don’t. (OECD 2007 Executive Summary, p 33-35)

This shouldn’t shock anyone, and personally, I think that is a bit of a truism and will hold in almost every country to varying degrees. However, NZ is doing particularly badly in getting children from the non well off sections of society to perform well in school. It means that the benefits of living in an educational system that is better than others only apply to a certain section of the demographic. That is not so good at all. It also means that individual experiences of the NZ system cannot just be not as good as the study implies, they can even be signficantly worse than in countries that have done worse overall in their results, but have a better spread of results across all demographic sections. NZ had a higher proportion in some areas of good test results than other countries, but it also had a very large proportion with results at or below the lowest level. Socio economic background is the main indicator for that.

So you, Tesall, look at the PISA study and draw the conclusion that the children here are better educated. I look at the same PISA study and say yes, they have done better in international comparisions, but I don’t draw the conclusion that children here are automatically better off than in other countries. Once again, I would urge everyone to look at their own indiviual circumstances, and check where their own family will fit into this (or any other educational system).

I am also not entirely sure what you think I’ve been saying repeatedly about the NZ education system, other than that my experience with it has been a big disappointment. I have no problem at all reconciling my personal disappointment with the PISA study and don’t see those two (my opinion and the study) as contradictory at all.

Daniela

[IanW99]

Try actually reading about the report.....

Whilst a good suggestion, it may be better if you at least quote the report ideally with a link to it first.

It is only because some of us, know which report you are talking about that we were able to post the required information on your behalf.

Ian

[bobo]

Try actually reading about the report.....

I could not find a reference to the report (the only factual report), hence the need to ask.

[Sam B]

I think you raise some really valid points there Daniela and I'm just mulling over in my head why those lower socio-economic groups are achieving so poorly. (Sorry April, I know this is off topic, but hopefully you have a good idea of the pros and cons from earlier posts).

I think (and this is just my personal opinion) that the main group that are under performing are Maori students. Something that I noticed from the start of living here is that even though Maori are integrated into NZ life, many of them are also not really, and live in extremely rural, very poor settings, or in towns like Tokoroa, where I worked, where every school is decile 1, or in the poorest areas of the main cities. What I'm trying to say is they are no where near as integrated as I was expecting. They are heavily over-represented in the decile 1 schools, and these schools are in areas that are either miles from anywhere or so desolate that you wouldn't want to live or work there. So it must be difficult to recruit and retain teaching staff. It would also be interesting to factor in Kura Kaupapa schools and look at the educational achievements of children going through this system.

These are just some thoughts I'm having from working in this area and thinking about it a lot. They are not based on facts or research however.

[Tesall]

Whilst a good suggestion, it may be better if you at least quote the report ideally with a link to it first.

It is only because some of us, know which report you are talking about that we were able to post the required information on your behalf.

Ian

I have posted a link to the report twice before. I found the report myself after someone else mentioned it, I would have thought anyone else could have done the same very easily before questioning its validity.
My mistake.

[Tesall]

So you, Tesall, look at the PISA study and draw the conclusion that the children here are better educated.

No I dont, and please dont make conclusions on my behalf. I only refer to this report when people make blanket statements about the system as a whole.



I look at the same PISA study and say yes, they have done better in international comparisions, but I don’t draw the conclusion that children here are automatically better off than in other countries. Once again, I would urge everyone to look at their own indiviual circumstances, and check where their own family will fit into this (or any other educational system).


I agree with this.


I think you raise some really valid points there Daniela and I'm just mulling over in my head why those lower socio-economic groups are achieving so poorly. (Sorry April, I know this is off topic, but hopefully you have a good idea of the pros and cons from earlier posts).

I think (and this is just my personal opinion) that the main group that are under performing are Maori students. Something that I noticed from the start of living here is that even though Maori are integrated into NZ life, many of them are also not really, and live in extremely rural, very poor settings, or in towns like Tokoroa, where I worked, where every school is decile 1, or in the poorest areas of the main cities. What I'm trying to say is they are no where near as integrated as I was expecting. They are heavily over-represented in the decile 1 schools, and these schools are in areas that are either miles from anywhere or so desolate that you wouldn't want to live or work there. So it must be difficult to recruit and retain teaching staff. It would also be interesting to factor in Kura Kaupapa schools and look at the educational achievements of children going through this system.

These are just some thoughts I'm having from working in this area and thinking about it a lot. They are not based on facts or research however.

Yes so if you are a Maori and emigrating to NZ and reading this board... beware....

[Ana&Steve]

I think (and this is just my personal opinion) that the main group that are under performing are Maori students. Something that I noticed from the start of living here is that even though Maori are integrated into NZ life, many of them are also not really, and live in extremely rural, very poor settings, or in towns like Tokoroa, where I worked, where every school is decile 1, or in the poorest areas of the main cities. What I'm trying to say is they are no where near as integrated as I was expecting. They are heavily over-represented in the decile 1 schools, and these schools are in areas that are either miles from anywhere or so desolate that you wouldn't want to live or work there. So it must be difficult to recruit and retain teaching staff. It would also be interesting to factor in Kura Kaupapa schools and look at the educational achievements of children going through this system.

These are just some thoughts I'm having from working in this area and thinking about it a lot. They are not based on facts or research however.
Hmm, I also wonder how a child's education is affected by the parent's involvement. If a parent doesn't put much stock in education or doesn't take a lot of interest in the process. Poor and rural test lower in the US too. Also I have friends right here who have the attitude of "it's the schools job to teach my kid, not mine" sigh. I don't have kids but I'm curious about just about everything, so I've noticed the encouraging parents around me having an impact on grades (and happy kids)

Tesall- your snarkiness is making it hard for me to be open to your arguments.

[5kings]

Hmm, I also wonder how a child's education is affected by the parent's involvement. If a parent doesn't put much stock in education or doesn't take a lot of interest in the process. Poor and rural test lower in the US too. Also I have friends right here who have the attitude of "it's the schools job to teach my kid, not mine" sigh. I don't have kids but I'm curious about just about everything, so I've noticed the encouraging parents around me having an impact on grades (and happy kids)

Tesall- your snarkiness is making it hard for me to be open to your arguments.

Well I reckon you are right, children who have encouraging and interested parents are bound to do better than those with disinterested parents. Where we live (UK) is considered by Ofsted as an area of social deprivation, and from working in schools you REALLY notice a difference between children who have parents interested in their education, and those who leave the schools to get on with it.

I also think encouraging parents will also make more effort to find the right schools for their children, rather than sending them to the nearest but not necessarily the best. We recently changed our daughters school for this very reason, even though it meant us getting up earlier and cycling in all weathers, we have noticed an improvement now she is in a better school, and fortunately we have got our eldest son into the same school even though we are out of catchment and the school is over subscribed so we are lucky.

I can't comment on NZ education as we are not there, but I do think there are so many variables to consider when attempting to compare different educational systems.

Helen

[sophiedb]

Well I reckon you are right, children who have encouraging and interested parents are bound to do better than those with disinterested parents. Where we live (UK) is considered by Ofsted as an area of social deprivation, and from working in schools you REALLY notice a difference between children who have parents interested in their education, and those who leave the schools to get on with it.

Agreed. Here we have several schools where parents either don't care about education because they never found a use for it themselves, or they have too much else (mental health, domestic violence, multiple jobs, etc etc) to find the time/energy to encourage their kids. A sad cycle, hard to break.

[Sam B]

Yeah good point Ana, and I wouldn't want to imply at all that Maori parents aren't involved or interested, because this certainly wasn't the case with the families I worked with in Tokoroa. It's just that the area was so lacking in resources and it must be hard to recruit good staff to these areas. Although there were some great teachers, but when everyone is poor in an area, it's hard to bring it up and raise expectations. And when you drive through some of the really remote and, let's face it, very very poor rural settlements, they are often exclusively Maori - I'm thinking of our recent break in the East cape. How do you set up and run a really forward thinking school with excellent staff in areas like this?

[peg]

hi, i've been thinking about your question and its an interesting one as we've had to think it through over last few months to stay here or head back to europe
for me a few things helped me decide to go back to europe
-the distance from my family and friends, and the cost of returning there, if i could afford to pop home for my friends weddings it would make it a lot easier to be away from them but i am not earning enough to be able to go back twice a year so for me even if i can't get as much work there i think i'll be better off than staying here and trying to pay for flights home for the big events.
-work, i have to be very aware that the world is in recession so i don't think i would say that pay in nz is always worse but i definitely feel poorer, at home i would eat out regularly and pop over to uk but here we need to check the bank account and see if we can afford it, i do admit that could be the case in europe at the moment too
-the next reason for my decision to leave may sound stupid but my job involves meeting people all day everyday i am sick of people commenting on my accent, assuming i'm scottish (people's republic of cork and proud ;-). ie ireland!) and passing smart remarks about drink etc i know there is no malice in the comments and really it is just polite chat but i am sick of the same conversation over and over- it makes me feel as if i'll always be a stranger/foreigner and to be honest i can't wait to have "normal" chats with the people i meet at work

i know i started with the negatives but that's because i've got my flight booked to go "home" there are many other things but they're the biggies

so i suppose for balance i should tell you the things that make me question my decision
- the blue skies in winter- i mean really bright and blue, hard to be grumpy with that
-the sea and snow and all the outdoor activities
-less traffic and handiness of a lot of things, we can walk to the cinema in 5 mins, the bakery is across thee road and the butcher is just past the cinema- great quality of life in that respect

i'm rambling a bit but i do think its a great country and worth a go to see how you like it
best of luck

[sasvanb]

I think you raise some really valid points there Daniela and I'm just mulling over in my head why those lower socio-economic groups are achieving so poorly. (Sorry April, I know this is off topic, but hopefully you have a good idea of the pros and cons from earlier posts).

I think (and this is just my personal opinion) that the main group that are under performing are Maori students. Something that I noticed from the start of living here is that even though Maori are integrated into NZ life, many of them are also not really, and live in extremely rural, very poor settings, or in towns like Tokoroa, where I worked, where every school is decile 1, or in the poorest areas of the main cities. What I'm trying to say is they are no where near as integrated as I was expecting. They are heavily over-represented in the decile 1 schools, and these schools are in areas that are either miles from anywhere or so desolate that you wouldn't want to live or work there. So it must be difficult to recruit and retain teaching staff. It would also be interesting to factor in Kura Kaupapa schools and look at the educational achievements of children going through this system.

These are just some thoughts I'm having from working in this area and thinking about it a lot. They are not based on facts or research however.


Yes so if you are a Maori and emigrating to NZ and reading this board... beware....

I just wanted to say that I feel this is a bit of a flippant throw-away comment (Tesall) in response to (what I think) is a really relevant point raised by Sam B. If we are talking about negatives/positives about NZ then isn't this kind of social disparity a real issue? I hasten to add it is my own belief there are real inequalities between certain sectors in society here, (yes I know you get this everywhere), but particularly Maori. I am sure there are studies to this effect, and I am interested to find out more. And I echo Sam B's feelings that I was also surprised (and dissappointed) to discover this apparantly marked difference in educational acheivement. No surprises that it goes right up to University level. I recently attended a professional development day via my work on Maori History and Culture. This session was delivered by the Head of Maori Studies at Victoria University. The stats at this university is that of the 12% Maori student population embarking on qualification only about 4% actually graduate... (sorry don't have exact figures, but could probably get them if needed).

Here's an NZ herald article that highlights the issue a bit better:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10430180

So basically, I don't feel comfortable with the disregard of the issues involved in the original point Sam B made in her post ( I apologise in advance Tesall if I got the wrong end of the stick). I feel that if a truly positive contribution is to be made to the NZ community in the whole... we must seriously consider this type of issue.

Phew.... that was a bit of a rant right? :o

Debate is healthy though huh? ;)