[kamus]

On an another thread where Americans discussed politics and their reasons for leaving, someone said that Maori politics were a big issue in NZ.
I'm curious as to what the current state of Maori politics is in NZ.

One of the things I've alsways heard about NZ was that the Maori were better intergrated into post-colonial society better than in other countries (notably Oz) and that was a selling point on NZ, albeit a minor one. While Maori integration may be better than elsewhere, I gather that racism (that ancient bugaboo :no) is alive and well.

Do the Maori still have a lot of resentment towards the settlers? Are they actively discriminated against? Just trying to put together as complete a picture as possible of NZ life. We realize that no place is without its warts and here in the US we're certainly no stranger to racism, but in the so called civilised 21st century it's a crying shame that it exists anywhere at all.

-Dave

[Tony & Norma]

Hi all,

One slant on this issue............

Whilst I was in NZ in 2002 I spoke to a black guy born and raised in South Africa. He had emigrated/escaped to the UK back in the early sixties and then on to NZ in the mid seventies.

As one half of a mixed race couple I was interested in whether or not he and his family had experienced racism in NZ as I know he had here in the UK and for sure in South Africa.

His comment was simply ' There ain't no racism here mate' !

From his perspective obviously.


Tony

[Radders]

There is a major hoohaa at the mo over the foreshore.
I will be showing my lack of understanding here, but here goes:

The maori have certain rights under the treaty that enable them to continue their use of certain parts of nz, such as the gathering of shell fish etc on public land, even where it is banned for others to take.
The government want to put an amendment in that turns the forshore over to them some how.
I'm sure this is completely wrong, but the topic is causing an almighty stink at the mo.
The integration of europeans and maori compared with other country's where europeans colonised is remarkable. I know this first hand as my wife has maori ancestry.
However there are indeed problems, like in most other countries.
There has also been a huge surge in the reclaiming of heritage that was almost lost, and this has brought much more understanding and an embracing of nz's cultural roots for all.

[veronica]

while I agree with everyones cultural roots type of thing I am a bit cynical as most of the areas being claimed are prime real estate or have tremendous tourist potential.

[Diny]

Veronica

You've hit the nail right on the head there girlie !!!!!!!

This thread has the potential of becoming far too politically volitile (sp) so I'll make that my one and only comment and sit back and read with interest other peoples opinions.

Diny

[Radders]

Veronica,
I did not mean that giving the maori the forshore, helped all nzers embrace their roots!!
I know too little about the subject.
I only meant to inform people that it was the major topic at the mo.

Well that and renaming NZ Aoterea - New Zealand :P :P

[Timbo]

Two Maoris in a pub. One asks the other "have you got Sky? yet?"
"Na, were waiting to get the forshore first".

It`s a heavy topic in the land of the long white cloud, thats for sure.

[ruthyroo]

Glad this topic has come up - it doesn't very often on these boards.

Racism is definitely alive and kicking here in NZ from all sides, and no-one comes out of it very well. I have found attitudes of whites to all other races that would fit better in 60's britain and language that is straight from the script of 'love thy neighbour' seems to be acceptable, especially among older UK immigrants. To generalise hugely, the pakeha look down on the maori and call them thieving scum, the maori resent the pakeha and tell them to get off their land, while everyon gets together to hate the asians (see john's story on the migrant stories).

I work in local government here in NZ, and there is certainly a huge and increasing emphasis from the government that tangata whenua (people of the land, i.e. maori) are to be consulted (and more) on a whole range of land use, development and management issues. In some cases, this goes as far as returning ownership of land / water / resources to maori that have been 'proven' to have been taken unfairly in the past (do a search on the Treaty of Waitangi for background on this). Here in Rotorua, the lakes are (almost certainly) to be returned to the local iwi, te Arawa, and it is causing a helluva stink. Local pakeha are sure that once Te arawa have ownership of the lakes, they will in the future decide to charge for access - which is currently free to all for swimming, fishing, kayaking etc. It''s similar to the foreshore bill - which is being pushed through slowly but surely. And yes a lot of these places have huge commercial potential - si there is a lot of suspicion from pakeha to maori motivation.

I would agree that maori in NZ have been better dealt with that, say, aborigines in Oz, but that's not really saying much! What is different is that the Maori are politically mobilised and highly effective campaigners, and there is an increasing number of well educated, vocal maori who are pushing these agendas forward. Whether the financial benefits are actually going to be passed onto the disenfranchised maori living in poverty and crime in south Aukland is another question entirely...

[Timbo]

Excellent post Ruthyroo, thanks.

[kamus]

Am I correct in assuming that the term "paheka" refers to the white settlers?

-Dave

[ruthyroo]

Pakeha, most common definition I have heard is along the lines of non-Maori (white?) New Zealander, here's a link that talks in detail ... http://chaff.musa.org.nz/pakeha.html about it. t's in farily common usage here to describe non-maori, usually of European descent.

[Gran]

The interesting thing is that there are no Maoris left, we were told that the last pure blood Maori died many years ago, every Maori here at the moment has mixed blood!!

[Stu]

Hoo boy, Racism and Maori/Pakeha relations. What a can of worms that is.

Basically, I think NZers are pretty much free of personal racism, as opposed to general racism...ummmm, eh?
What I mean is, a lot of pakehas will describe the Maoris as lazy, thieving etc, apart of course from their wife and in-laws and Dave at work and the blokes in the footy team and.... in other words, their opinion of things Maori is low, but that does not mean they even think twice about having maori mates, workers, partners/in-laws etc etc. It is perhaps more "culturalism" than "racism". The Maori culture is not one I particularly find appealing, and recent political revisionism has made me even less tolerant of such stuff.

If you came to me to ask me to fund MAori schools, or learn to speak Maori, or any of that pahlaver,I would tell you to get stuffed. Doesn't mean I do not hire anyone, maori or pakeha, on my farm (our current sharemilker is maori), or have maoris in our family, "Sis-in-law and Neice and nephew are maori, doesn't bother me one bit. What DOES pee me off is when activists for any interest group get on the "give the pakeha a guilt trip" band wagon.

The foreshores thing? A storm in a tea cup mostly, whipped up by media and politicians mostly. It applies to most maori no more than it applies to pakehas, but it makes darn good politics.
Basically I think, as a pakeha, that knowing your heritage is great, whether Pakeha or Maori or whatever, but expecting maori culture... when all said and done,a primitive stone-age culture, to be an effective force in helping people to live in a modern world is hopeless, culturally-economically it is just not up to the job.

The clash between Maori culture and modern expectations is what is causing the poverty so prevalent in NZs maori population. For an even more obvious parallel, look at say the Solomon ISlands, where an even more basic culture of the Solomon Islanders is clashing with modern needs... resulting in chaos.

Racism in NZ? Sure, we have it. It is human. Mostly though, we all just get along fine really. No apartheid, no KKK, no Mau-mau, just all Kiwis, some different colours is all. As for someone obviously "Black" like as in African or whatever, no, I don't think we have any racism there at all.

Hmmm... I don't know if that all says what I mean fully or not, it is a very complicated issue, and I am just a simple peasant....

Stu.

[richsadams]

Hi Kamus and All :D

What a great topic…one that’s usually kept quiet. I know where Kamus is coming from with regard to racism and some other folks have outlined the land situation here pretty well so I won't try to add to that (I don't have the background anyway!) But as far as out-and-out racisim goes, I haven't really seen anything overt.

As Ruthy notes, I have seen the attitude of some older whites toward Maori similar to that of whites towards blacks , Native Americans, Asians, Hispanics, (fill in any race other than white here) in the U.S. 20 or 30 years ago. And like in the U.S. racism seems to be more prevalent between the lower classes of both races.

Anyone planning on immigrating to NZ and wanting to understand the roots of some of the disagreements should read the Treaty of Waitangi which was signed by the New Zealand Government and the Maori back in 1840. It can be found on the NZIS site along with some decent background regarding immigration, property rights, etc.

http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/

Just my two cents here...we've lived in both a heavily Maori populated area and now in one where they are few and far between. Maori make up roughly 16% of the population but contribute a great deal of the cultural atmosphere in NZ. (Similar to Hawaii…both as their history as well as to promote tourism income.) They have a wonderful heritage, but like every country that was colonized suffered terribly and are only recently gaining back some of their self-respect, position...and possibly some of their land.

But back to Kamus' question…we have yet to see any outright racism. There is always friction between peoples of different backgrounds, colour, culture, etc., but I feel like there’s a more tolerant “live and let live” attitude here than in the U.S. or some other countries we’ve visited. Education and integration have been much better in NZ than in many other parts of the world. And after all, there just aren't that many people here and the lifestyle is more laid back...so I think it's a little easier for everyone to get along.

If you want to see the plight of some of the less fortunate Maori, rent the movie "Once We Were Warriors" and the sequel. It's fairly depressing, but gives you a good idea of what it's like to be a poor Maori in today's New Zealand. The story is very much the same for downtrodden and disenfranchised people almost anywhere. Every place has its warts, and no one will be completely satisfied with how things are handled ever. But it appears to us that the Kiwis, both Pakeha and Maori, are at least trying to set things right...for all peoples. :clap

[Annierobrigado]

thanks rich for giving me something to hold on to when we finally land in NZ. i've read enough horror stories of immigrant children being made fun of and laughed at by the locals, and it is my one concern in this whole migration stuff. i wouldn't want my kids to be laughed at just because of the color of their skin (brown is exotic, many caucasians love the color otherwise they wouldnt insist on tanning). i'd like my kids to blend in gradually as they get the feel of the place, and later when they're comfortable, i'd let them shine on their own.

i wish all people would just go on and live their lives as best they can, even if they see some people different from them. then again, i'm being naive. so what's a mom to do but to teach my kids to be tolerant and friendly to all, and stay away from mean and selfish people no matter what color they are.

:clap to all those who are non-discriminating, friendly and helpful. Like the people in this forum!!

cheers
annie

ebony and ivory
live together in perfect harmony
side by side on my piano keyboard
oh lord why don't we?
- paul mccartney and stevie wonder

[richsadams]

Cheers Annie...keep saying your prayers and maybe one day... :D

[Gran]

Goodonya Stu,
You have hit the nail on the head and said it better than I could, 4 of my Grandchildren have got a little bit of Maori blood, its just makes them a little more beautiful, I dont even register any more what race people are because they are so mixed up around here.
But it gets my goat a bit when the usual crew of activists stir things up, I dont think the majority of Maoris have any time for them either.
Gran

[Annierobrigado]

thanks rich. yes, i believe in the power of prayer.

hi gran,

just wondered, hibiscus coast - is that in auckland? do you have any website that can show what it looks like? sounds heavenly, by the name of it.

cheers
annie

[Stu]

The Hibiscus Coast is nice yes, but not exactly quite as it sounds... no shady lanes draped in Hibiscus or anything! :-)
It is a stretch of coastline just like any other in or around the greater akld region, neither particularly better, nor worse. Damn good marketing ploy though eh! :-)
cheers,
Stu.

[Annierobrigado]

hi stu

yeah, marketing ploy quite right, coz the name sounds like something out of Hawaii.

still would like to visit it though... a learning experience

annie

[Diny]

Reminds me of when PB and I lived in Darwin, Oz. Thee was an area called Coconut Grove.

Sounds idilic doesn't it?

Nah ..... mainly state housing and industrial units.

Diny