[Debbie]

For any one who is interested Sky 1 this Sunday at 10pm is a new series looking at gangs. This program is about Mongrel Mob in Auckland.

[driver]

we watched this last night after watching the first programme from Rio.

I will admit to being a little nervous of the mob, but am sure if we keep out of their hair they will not bother us.

I must say though that I personally found what was going on in the fevalas of Rio much more scary. Lets hope so anyway.

[Babette & Andy]

What a disturbing programme :eek wasn't able to watch all of it. Sure that when you focus a programme totally on one topic it make it look far worse than it may be on a day to day basis. At least I hope so :? Did blow my bubble a bit though, but then again, if I look at the UK news or newspapers today I will no doubt be reminded of all the dreadfull things that go on over here.

Babbette

[jo b]

I watched that and laughed at all the bravado.

Most of them killed each other or just came to an end through different causes i.e one got run over!!

Yes bravado here mw thinks!!

Jo

[KD17]

We watched it too and I found it a little disturbing, but was quickly reminded of the gangland shootings which happen all too frequently in the UK cities. These members didn't seem to carry guns, which would be more terrifying, and did seem to keep it "amongst themselves".

As with any places, you have to know where not to go.

Although scary, this is part of normal life, as much as we'd like to hide from it I feel it's best knowing so that we can be aware and keep our distance.


Keith & Debby

[wayne]

Yes the Mob are alive and well but usually keep south of auckland except when they come north on a theiving spree according to my son

[Jo and Andy]

I was a bit worried about it I thought they were mostly in Aukland and not all over NZ.

But then Andy and I started listening to some of the dates, and watching the local people in Christchurch not being bothered by the big stabing going on in front of them. It seems to be mostly contained to inter gang violence, not generally attacking anyone (MOSTLY), there is bound to be some violence.

Then we took more notice of the dates, people killed a few years ago, the dates between major killings seemed few and far between (but may have missed something). It did not appear to be something that happened that often. There have been about 5 shootings that I and Andy have heard about in Birmingham this year, and we don't hear most of them (only when people get caught in the crossfire), not much crossfire with a golf club or hammer.

Also can you imagine a local council in Britain managing to ban the gang from living in the town, they would probably be given give them a nice big house in a posh area, to get a good socio ecomonic mix.

Police seemed to solve most to the crimes though, and in Christchurch the gang seemed to be dieing mainly from stealing their own drugs or using them a bit to often.

So after contemplation, it did not worry me as much as the gangs over here.

Not sure whats wrong I am in such a positive move today.

;)

[Soon2baKiwi]

Jo - your slant is the same as mine. It also seemed that a lot of the stuff they talked about happened a long time ago - they're too busy dealing drugs to bother the general populace much it seems. Unless, as Wayne says, they travel to steal :uhoh

[Timbo]

Nz may have these gangs, but do the authoritys have to slap anti-social behaviour orders on ten year olds? I kind of doubt it some how.

[GeorgeM]

do the authoritys have to slap anti-social behaviour orders on ten year olds?

If the Greens and Lady Helen get their way nobody will be slapping anything on anyone soon...

[dave k]

Not sure what you mean George? Can you elaborate?

[GeorgeM]

Not sure what you mean George? Can you elaborate?

A side swipe at the Green MP whose private members bill to repeal the bit of the law which allows parents to claim 'reasonable force' in disciplining the child if taken to court for assult - touted as the bill to outlaw smacking - and which was supported by Lady Helen yesterday (although she won't let it become law this side of the election because of the general lack of support for it in the electorate at large).

[dave k]

A side swipe....

:mrgreen: Nifty!

Seriously though...I agree with that. Whilst I'm not one for supporting the government "nannying" it's citizens, I think parents who beat their kids and then get off by claiming use of "reasonable force", should be held to account.

I'm thinking more immediately of that woman in Timaru who beat her child with a cane & then with a riding crop. WTF!!!
If that had been a dog everyone would be up in arms, but a child? Fine - no problem, keep him on the straight & narrow.

When I was a kid I'd get the occasional cuff round the ear or smack on the arse if I was really naughty, which is understandable...but when you're into riding crop territory, that's just abuse.

[dave k]

What?! You can't say ar*e on the forum?

Well bugger me...

[GeorgeM]

but when you're into riding crop territory, that's just abuse.

But surely that's the point of having a defence of 'reasonable force' - the courts can decide what is acceptable and what isn't.

I don't have any figures on this, but I would assume that whacking a 14 year old with a riding crop would be seen as going too far by a majority of people. Under the present law it is open to the judicicary to take this on board and reject the defence in such cases in the future. What is acceptable and what isn't changes over time and under this legislation these adjustments can be made. When I was at school the caning of a 14 year old was a common everyday occurance, and public opinion in those days would have considered it to be reasonable force even for relatively minor misdemenors. Today such punishment would be far far rarer, and the weight of opinion would be against it. Same law, different outcome.

Even under the present legislation it is possible that anything other than the lightest tap could become unacceptable and therefore indefensible in the courts over a relatively short period of time. It's less than 30 years since I was at a school which made very liberal use of physical punishment yet it has been totally absent from UK schools for so long that my teenage children cannot believe that it ever happened at all, far less that it was commonplace.

Removing the defence completely is merely a way for those who are totally opposed to physical punishment to hasten a total and absolute outright ban, nothing less. They recognise that they are so out of step with so much of the population on this that they can't come out and say as much, so they are having to go via the softly softly route. Should this bill get through it will not be many years before some teenage thug takes his mother to court for doling out a quick slap.

Oops sorry - long rant AND off topic.

[dave k]

Good point, well made.

The majority of Kiwis I've spoken to about this incident seem to think she was well within her rights, and heartily approve of physical punishment in general, so it looks like there'll be a while to go yet before public opinion starts to change.

I disagree with smacking on the whole - I think there's very few circumstances where other approaches & punishments won't work far more effectively. Smacking - or shall we just call it "hitting"? - is almost always carried out in anger and signals a loss of control over the child.

This guy sounds like a great Dad though...]

http://maddox.xmission.com/beat.html

:eek

[Diny]

I'm not saying I wouldn't smack my children.

I'm saying I don't need to.

They are just normal, every day, run of the mill kids, certainly no halo's and they produce their fare share of mischief (in varying degrees). However, if - as a parent - you do the job right, there's no need to hit your kids.

That makes me sound 'up myself' - then so be it. I'm nothing wonderful, just another parent doing my best for my kids. But believe me, there's far more effective means of punishment that actually clouting your kids.

Remove a few privilages and have the b*lls to stand by your threats. It's no use telling junior that he/she won't be going to a party at the weekend or the school disco, and then when the day comes, tempers have mellowed and you say "oh go on then". This simply proves that your words are no mightier than dish water.

Believe me, have the courage to carry out your 'grounding' threats and you'll find that they work REALLY well. We also use the 'count of 3 rule' - you know the kind of thing .... stop that before I count to 3. Our kids know we're not bluffing - it works well. We also have the 3 chances rule. 1: we ask them to stop whatever it is that's 'out of order'.
2: if they continue we then TELL them to stop.
3: if they've still foolishly decided to continue. the next level of punishment kicks in (i.e. the gounding, removal of treats etc).

We're not 'super parents' - certainly nothing outstanding or super tollerant, but I just can't see myself beating 7 bells out of those little babies that I brought into the world - regardless of the fact that they're now 8 and 9 !!!!!!!!

I once saw a woman 'punishing' her kids. The 2 boys had been fighting over something and one of them had hit the other. The mum then steps in and grabs the kid and with every sylable (sp) of the words "I've told you never to hit anybody haven't I" she clouts her kid around the head.

If it wasn't so damn tragic it would have been funny.

Anyway - off thread rant over, gotta go now and kick h*ll out of the kids to get them moving. :eek :eek :eek

Diny

[GeorgeM]

This guy sounds like a great Dad though...

http://maddox.xmission.com/beat.html

Thanks for the link. I must go back soon to see if he has a view on the Jackson verdict :laugh

[GeorgeM]

However, if - as a parent - you do the job right, there's no need to hit your kids.

It's so simple that it's difficult to believe that for millennia, and in almost every society that has existed, everybody had it wrong but didn't figure it out earlier.

But in the last 20 years, in a few liberal western democracies, we've suddenly stumbled on this wonderful truth.

You can see the results everywhere you look.

[veronica]

Ours got a slap if they needed it, and we always used the count of three rule too. different kids, different characters need different methods of chastisment. One of ours would disolve in tears if shouted at but would be defiant if smacked and the other you could reason with, threaten and try all sorts of verbal but she would only give in once smacked. Both our two have strong characters which is great but it doesn't make for easy childrearing. A short sharp smack after a couple of warnings sometimes works better than anything else. but I am talking a slap in the singular with a bare hand on the behind or back of legs. According to some that makes me a child abuser.....but we have two great adult kids in our family so it can't have been all that wrong!
Whats this got to do with Gangs!!!

[wayne]

Back to the gangs I lived in NZ in 1981 and it was the first time and only time I have seen a woman beaten sensless in a busy street and no one stepped in to help her , I was told not to get involved as its "their"business (they were Maori gang members)
The woman was standing at a bus stop as we all were when this big old car pulled up these two guys got out beat the woman up and threw her into the back of the car and drove off.
Sorry to shatter some dreams but it happens in NZ but usually they keep to their own, if you want to see some reality NZ life rent "Once were warriors"an excellent film that portrays maori life and cultures, although at times it is not pleasant to watch

[Carol]

Whats this got to do with Gangs!!!


Maybe it's got more to do with it than we think..... to do with the "it never did ME any harm" way of thinking....personally I think it does.....because it teaches kids that it is OK to hit when angry.

[Timbo]

SORRY. My fault this slipped of topic. I should not have used the metaphor "slap". :oops:

[ruthyroo]

99 times out of 100 you will probably not notice any presence of gangs / Mob in NZ, especially if you are in the south island, unless you go looking for it. But every once in a while it rears up and hits you between the eyes. Living in a very Maori area (Rotorua) and working public services, especially Mr Rr teaching in a school that is nearly 40% Maori students, some of the stories that come back home are just horrific. The theory goes that during WW2 the best of brightest of the Maori men went off to fight, and very few came back. Coupled with a general shift from country to city, poverty, and the breakdown of the traditional family / whanau structure, a lot of poor maori have turned to the gang structure as a replacement of sorts. As everywhere, the gangs are heavily into drugs and prostitution, and this has awful social consequences, especially among their own. Mr Rr has many kids in school who aspire to dealing drugs as it is seen as an easy and 'cool' way to make money - and a damn site easier than anything academic, when education is not valued in your peers or family. Another thing the MM have - like all gangs - is a very rigid code of conduct, and anyone who is deemed to have broken that code is fair game. Including a 14 year old girl who is now in hiding to try and avoid a punishment gang rape for having the temerity to chat up an older married man at a party where MM members (including her parents) were present. As you say, it's other Maori that suffer the most, but that doesn't make it any less horrific when it happens.

Sorry to bring such a depressing story to the board. It is a side to life in NZ that doesn't get aired very often, and no-one seems to be able to do anything about it. The MM is such a hideous perversion of the whanau, but for some people it's all they've got.

[GeorgeM]

SORRY. My fault this slipped of topic. I should not have used the metaphor "slap". :oops:

No no, I must disagree. I'm the one to blame. Apologies everyone. :oops:

[dave k]

This guy sounds like a great Dad though...

http://maddox.xmission.com/beat.html

Thanks for the link. I must go back soon to see if he has a view on the Jackson verdict :laugh

I can't quite make up my mind whether he's taking the p**s or not you know :laugh

I thought this bit was hilarious...

"Don't listen to these assholes on TV with their bullshit hippy psycho babble; if they had it their way, every child would be raised in a pastel colored room with Philip Glass pumped through the speakers 24 hours a day. Then again, it might not be all that bad because it will make your kids complacent, so it won't be as hard for them to swallow when they realize that they'll be spending the rest of their lives chained to a desk in a cubicle writing reports to make someone else rich."



Didn't fancy the sound of The 2 x 4 / PVC pipe much though :exit

[Diny]

Of course he's taking the p**s ........ no self respecting hippy worth his ounce of brown rice would paint a room in pastel colours.

The man's an idiot .... bring on the dayglo rainbow, man.

Diny

[wayne]

thanks for that info Ruthyroo It raised a few points that I have never thought of before, the MM being a substitute for "family"its not unlike the Hells Angels code of loyalties except i know a couple of the UK angels and nicer people you couldnt wish to meet they certainly act alot better than the chav scum we see around here.
I am in a similar position here as I teach students from 14yrs - adult and stealing and drugs seems to be the main ambition amongst the crowd I see, that and "happy slapping" ( how they can call serous assault happy I fail to see)
Yes there are gangs in NZ but on the whole they are not a threat unless youre unlucky enough to cross them or are in the wrong place at the wrong time