[Singel]

Today's NZ herald showed the following comparison of average weekly full-time earnings : AP=all people M=males F=females
OZ - $1059.70 (AP), $1136.70 (M), $906.30 (F)
NZ - $801.89 (AP), $895.71 (M), $696.96 (F)

Here are the information on tax rates and house prices in OZ and NZ :

OZ tax rate
http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/12333.htm

NZ tax rate
http://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax-individual/itaxsalaryandwage-incometaxrates.html

Some of the house prices in OZ
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Sydneys-median-house-price-505000/2005/02/21/1108834709151.html
http://seven.com.au/todaytonight/story/?id=19813

From today's NZ herald, the house prices in Auckland
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10342678
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10342660

My thoughts................

I brought up this topic because a few days ago, there is an Aussie MP who mentioned that OZ labour rates are very high and he would like to see it lower to NZ rates.

I felt that NZ labour rates are too low. I would prefer NZ labour rate move up and OZ labour rate move down, so that both side meet in the middle.

Having said that, there is still the issue of affordability. This year, Mercer HR Consulting ranked the most expensive cities to live in Australiasia : Sydney is no.20, Auckland is no.69 and Wellington is no.76.

Utimately, comparision across the tasman is always challenging. I think the decision to live either in OZ or NZ depends very much on the lifestyle that you want.

:exit

[Sunshine20]

After 3 years in Nz we are moving to OZ and you are absolutely right in saying it is a lifestyle choice not a monetary decision. Oz offers us:
Better weather
Better employment prospects
Fantastic and diverse scenary
Better prospects / opportunitiesfor our kids whilst they are babies and right through to adulthood
Better consumer choice
A feeling that you are more 'part of the world"

For us NZ is very much a poor second to it's neighbour in terms of lifestyle.

[cornerofsilence]

I take it you now have a NZ passport?

I think NZ has great places.

Having been to Australia also I would rather stay on NZ.

We both have good jobs and our children are grown up so we do not have to consider them.

[Gran]

If you are in NZ have a read of this weeks Listener, interesting.

[Singel]

If you are in NZ have a read of this weeks Listener, interesting.
Today, I bought a copy of the magazine mentioned by Gran.

It has a front cover that said : IS AUSTRALIA STUFFED? WHY YOU'D BE MAD TO MOVE TO THE UNLUCKY COUNTRY.

The article is written by Tim Watkin and he starts the cover story with this introduction.................

For three decades, thousands of Kiwis have been lured across the Tasman by the promise of more lucre and a better lifestyle. But now the Lucky Country is losing its appeal, as terrorist threats loom large and the cost of living eats up the benefits of higher wages. Increasingly, New Zealand is looking like a greener, safer and happier place to live.

The magazine has a photo caption that say : Australia, land of contrasts, where "extreme weather and less water are the big issues".

The 6-page article carry stories about kiwis living in OZ and Aussies living in NZ. The one story that strikes me the most, is about a kiwi lady in OZ............

Emma Hunt, a 25-year-old Wellington fund analyst lived in Redfern, Sydney, for nearly two years and was shocked by the racism - white Australians being either blatantly insulting or just dismissing Aborigines. Managing a cafe in Darlinghurst, she saw just how different Australians were. "Someone got stabbed outside my work in the middle of the day. The Sydneysiders' reaction was so different. The place was half full and only one table helped. The others just stayed where they were. New Zealanders' reaction is that everyone wants to help. Everyone gets stuck in."

Sure, Sydney offers more opportunity, but also more stress and competition, she adds. "You can have a good job here (NZ) and have a good life, whereas over there (OZ) you have a good job but no life."

The article ended with.........................

Emma Hunt's impression is backed up by research from a recent book, How Australia Compares, which shows that even with four weeks' annual leave Australians work on average 1855 hours a year. New Zealanders average 1817 hours a year.

Which could be why we're also happier. As New Zealander John McMillan, a Stanford University economics professor, pointed out in June, Kiwis ranked 8th happiest in the world on the Happiness and Human Development Index. Australians were 11th. In the same survey, Kiwis (17th) also said they were more satisfied with their job than Australians were (26th). Given their wealth, McMillan concluded that Australians were simply "whingers".

Which again prompts the question - do we really want to be more like Australia? What would happen to our "she'll be right" attitude? And we haven't even mentioned Aussie's poisonous snakes and spiders.........Still, no one's claiming that our neighbours aren't good mates. But neither do we have to feel second-rate. We stand on our own feet, side by side. As one Aucklander said to me last week, Australia's like the South Island. Not a place to live, but it's great to know they're there.

:exit

[Lukas]

...that's relly funny. Yeah I meet many Kiwis absolutely convinced that they live in Paradise... the TV programs are showing wars, civil unrest or poverty this is the picture many of them have about "the rest of the world"...no comment on that.
...Also ...the suicidal rate in NZ among the young people is one of the highest in the world...perhaps too much "hapyness".

[Sunshine20]

I read that article too and thought it was incredibly biased and one sided. If Australia is so stuffed why is it a far more popular migrant destination than NZ and why do so many more Kiwis chose to live in Oz than Australians in NZ? Sure Nz appeals for some but the statistics in terms of migration numbers show that Australia is by far a more popular choice for exactly the reasons I have quoted.

Nz has anannual migration programme of 40,000 and it struggles to fill it hence the incredibly low points - they lowered it from 180 to 100 in the space of 12 months. Australia has an annual migration programme of 70,000 and it RAISED its points in April 2004. Sorry but the majority of persons migrating to the Southern Hemisphere do not in anyway think Australia is stuffed.

It is a personal choice but I think there is some merit in the majorities observations that living in Australia offers a better lifestyle.

[Singel]

Utimately, comparision across the tasman is always challenging. I think the decision to live either in OZ or NZ depends very much on the lifestyle that you want.

:exit

[GeorgeM]

If Australia is so stuffed why is it a far more popular migrant destination than NZ and why do so many more Kiwis chose to live in Oz than Australians in NZ?
In terms of raw numbers there are more 'good' jobs in Oz than in NZ. Where large companies have Pacific region offices these tend to be in Oz rather than in NZ, and with this sort of office comes the higher tier professional jobs. It's a bit like London and Bristol or Exeter - more people move to London than to Bristol or Exeter because there are more highly paid jobs there, but people who have good jobs in the other places are normally very convinced that they have the better deal.
Nz has anannual migration programme of 40,000 and it struggles to fill it hence the incredibly low points - they lowered it from 180 to 100 in the space of 12 months. Australia has an annual migration programme of 70,000 and it RAISED its points in April 2004.
Oz has five times the population of NZ, so on a pro-rata basis should be looking for 200,000 migrants each year. 70,000 equates to NZ seeking to take in 14,000. Or to put it another way Melbourne should be taking the same number of migrants as the whole of NZ!

[Sunshine20]

Oz probably could take more migrants - hence the points rise. Nz struggles to fill it's places - hence the points drop.

[GeorgeM]

Oz probably could take more migrants - hence the points rise. Nz struggles to fill it's places - hence the points drop.
When we applied in 2001 you only needed (I think) about 50 points.

I'm sure that you will agree that this means that NZ has had to INCREASE its points requirement radically over the past couple of years to keep hoards of migrants from applying to live in Godzone. :laugh

Of course the points system in those days was very different from what it is today. The current system is relatively new and was adopted (I believe) alongside new rules on the standard of English required from prospective new kiwis, so a moving of the bar upwards and downwards whilst the impact of the various aspects of the new system is felt is hardly unexpected. All it shows is that when they changed the rules they asked for more pears than you used to have to have lemons to get in. But they misjudged the value of a pear so are having to change that number to get it right. If anyone fiddles with the immigration rules post-election this will also necessitate an adjustment in the number of pears you have to have - or they may scrap pears altogether and ask you how many peaches you can bring to the party.

All of which has no bearing on the number of apples the aussies need before they will let people into the West Island. Or on whether in the short term they decide that their apples are under- or over-valued.

[Sunshine20]

Thanks for your comments but I think they are incorrect. NZ without doubt lowered the Skilled Migrants Points due to the limited number of people with high points who were applying. Oz raised theirs because they had a very large volume of people applying and could afford to be more selective. Likewise the number of Nz PR holders jumping the ditch as soon as they had NZ PR caused the Australians to remove the right of NZ PR holders to work in Oz. This is still in place the other way round due to the small number of OZ PR holders choosing to go to NZ. NZ PR has, on the whole, been easier to obtain than Australian PR and that was why for many it was a 'back door to Oz' - hence NZ PR rights being lost in OZ and the increase of NZ citizenship to 5 years.

I appreciate you prefer NZ but I am just pointing out the majority do not and I believe their is some merit in preference for Oz.

[GeorgeM]

As you wish.

But you're completely missing the point that if NZ only wanted to attract 14,000 people pa it could raise the bar. Or if Aus wanted to increase its incomers to 200,000 it would have to lower its requirements.

And you also ignore my comments on the relative availability of 'Head Office' type jobs in the two countries as a result of centralisation/regionalisation. In my time in NZ I have known a number of people who have gone to Oz, and they all went for better opportunities. If they could have had the NZ lifestyle plus the opportunites they would have preferred to have stayed in NZ - they don't like the high cost of living (esp housing) in Oz, and hate the traffic problems in Syd / Mel (although coming from Chch they would probably feel the same about Akl in this regard!).

As a family we will soon apply for NZ citizenship, and one of the reasons for doing so (as I have no immediate plans to stand for parliament :laugh ) will be to open up loads more possibilities for employment, especially for my children. I'm v. happy in Chch and in my job, but you never know what is around the corner and I know that if I was in the position of looking for a new job I would be lucky to find something at the same level in Chch. If I have to move it would be good to be able to consider the large Australian cities as well as Akl and Wlg.
I must admit that I find it a bit tedious when people find it sooooooooo important to reinforce their own choices by knocking those of other people. Aus is a good place to live for many. So is NZ. So is the UK and the US. People have a different mix of needs and preferences and this will result in different people coming up with different definitions of what they require. And in the final analysis most of us have to work to live so the ability to get work is crucial to the decision we make in the end.

[ENZ]

New Zealand lowered the SMC points requirement mainly because it introduced "equivalent labour market provisions" into immigration policy.

The effect of this was that skilled people from China and India (and many other developing countries) could immigrate to NZ only if they got a job offer first. The numbers of Chinese and Indian migrants to NZ has fallen dramatically and, as a result, the points requirement has been lowered.

The result of "equivalent labour market" measures was to make it easier (lower points) for people from favoured countries (such as the UK, USA, Canada, European Union, Japan, South Africa, Malaysia, Philippines, etc) to get into NZ.

The Minister responsible for the "equivalent labour market provisions" has since said she regrets introducing them. (Lianne Dalziel).

Australia, on the other hand, is positively promoting itself as a destination for skilled migrants from India and is holding immigration expos in India this year. This means that Australia is drawing on a much larger potential pool of migrants.

[Sunshine20]

As you wish GeorgeM.

But people are not solely attracted to Oz for improved work opportunities as you seem to think. There are many other factors which to many equate to a better lifestyle in Oz than NZ - hence the larger volume of migrants attracteed their, the removal of NZ PR rights etc etc.

I was simply trying to point out that for a larger proportion of migrants (Brits included) Oz is a more popular destination and potential migrants might want to investigate the reason for this before heading off to NZ.

I agree the discussion is tedious - you prefer Nz, my preference is Australia.

[veronica]

Having lived in both countries I can honestly say there isn't a lot to choose between them. they both have a lot going for them and they both have drawbacks.

One of the things against Oz is the hot weather. while it sounds lovely for a holiday just wait until you have to work and live in it month after month. We lived on both the east (humid) and west (hot and dry) coast. I would normally say that one of the drawbacks in NZ is the winters and the housing but this past winter hasn't played along with that. The other down side to Oz is the amount of creepy crawlies. while they aren't as bad as imagination makes them they are there, and I am not just talking about the poisonous ones. Common or garden ones like coackroaches are a pest mainly because of the hot weather.
If you are going to live in a big city it won't matter what country you choose to live in, you could just as well be in London. All cities have the same drawbacks.

The pace of life is slower in NZ and this is what a lot of people come out here for. property is a lot cheaper here to and this has to be weighed up against the higher wages in OZ. is it less likely that people would be able to afford to buy there ( always assuming that is a priority)

The only thing I would like to point out that if you choose to go there, thats great, but the same with people who are leaving the UK. You dont have to knock the place you are leaving to justify where you are going to.

[Debbie P.]

This is a really interesting discussion.

I admit that we looked at OZ before NZ, but one thing that put us off was their attitudes about age. Talk about ageist! My hubby's a teacher and we spoke to an OZ education agency rep at an Expo 2 years' ago - he was 36 at the time and she said he was 'too old' to consider moving to Australia because few schools would want to offer him a job (WHAT???). The look of contempt she gave him was slightly unnerving too. She was about 20 herself, so I guess we looked like a couple of old fogies to her...

At the same Expo, we spoke to a really friendly guy from NZ immigration, who did an on-the-spot assessment and said we'd get into the country within 3 months if we wanted to. In fact, it wasn't convenient for us to do so at that time, but now we're able to move, we wouldn't even consider OZ - especially if people like the girl at that Expo are living there.

OK, we picked a bad ambassador on that occasion, but it really put us off.

Debbie

[GeorgeM]

...he was 36 at the time and she said he was 'too old' to consider moving to Australia because few schools would want to offer him a job...

...guy from NZ immigration, who did an on-the-spot assessment and said we'd get into the country within 3 months if we wanted to...
Some would say that this just goes to show how desparate NZ is to attract people whilst Oz can afford to be real choosy! :laugh :laugh :laugh

As always readers make up their own minds as to which is the better deal.

[Sunshine20]

[QUOTE=GeorgeM]Some would say that this just goes to show how desparate NZ is to attract people whilst Oz can afford to be real choosy!
QUOTE]

Some might even say that it just shows how warm and cuddly NZ is!