[jo b]

Can I add something here

What really got to me on Jim's post was not his opinions but his hypocrisy (sp). On the one hand he was calling Kiwi's racist and on the other he blantantly generalises about the greed etc. of not only Kiwi's but also Arabs.

He also complained about the 'average' kiwi. If he works in Egypt he could live anywhere in NZ. If he didn't like Tauranga, try somewhere else, you might meet or live near someone who isn't "average".

It's a bit like me moving to Birmingham from Wigan and then saying all Brummies are x,y,and z, so I am off. You have to try and see where you fit in.
We may not fit in in Dannevirke but I would then try somewhere else in NZ.

As for manners I have never come across 1 rude kid in my 3 visits there. My nieces and nephews and thier cousins are the most well mannered kids I have ever come across.
Maybe this is down to parenting, I don't know. But all I can say is they shine amongst the "average" british kid.
I also have worked with many Kiwi's in the UK and not once have they come across unworldly and never have dispalyed poor manners.

As for schools, In NZ the schools are 'different'. They teach kids how become confident responsible people.
In the uk I am SICK to death of seeing kids ruin there own environment by throwing their very heathly breakfast wrappers away at 8.30 in a morning consisting of tin cans of pop, crisp and sweet wrappers. They can be the best mathematitians in the world but if they have no repect for the place they live then give me an uneducated Kiwi anyday. But hey I am generalising here??

The educating body in the Uk (can't remember the name) has said that in some areas up to 50% of kids go to senior school without the proper reading and writing skills, so equally the eduacation is poor here too Jim. At least your daughter will be fit and healthy in NZ because the local councils don't sell the school sports fields off to build housing estates.

As for estate agents fighting over money in Sales that's what people do.
Go into any estate agent in the Uk say you have £80k to spend see their response, go in the next day and say you have £600k to spend and see the difference in their response.

As for greed I have never lived in such a wastful throw away society that is the UK and it's getting worse. If it's broke just buy anther on the plastic and sod the debt. In NZ they mend and make do most of the time.
My kids watch cartoon network yes and they are going to grow up thinking money is something you get from a loan company and if anyone dares hurt you you can claim compensation. Believe me they say now when I've no money "Oh just get a loan".

So move back to the UK by all means but remeber that also has its faults too as does everywhere.

Jo

[Debbie P.]

Hi, the 'nanny' is back! (how embarrassing to be called a Net nanny... I'm a librarian, so the concept of censorship is totally alien!)

In retrospect, I should have waited a couple of days before laying into Jim - not that I agree with his generalisations, but I respect his right to post his views. Just wouldn't like to be living next to the guy! Anyway, enough about that - don't worry, I'm not going off post again.

This thread has really opened my eyes to the realities, to the extent that we've actually reconsidered moving next year. We're going to wait another year and try to get into a more secure financial situation, so we won't be like the Brits Jim mentioned who couldn't afford to go home again.

I'm also going to take 2 things into consideration before deciding to move:

1. The NZers might not want us there - and who can blame them if we're really pushing the housing prices up? I feel a bit uncomfortable about that. After all, we're quick enough to moan in the UK about immigrants 'taking our jobs' (that's a generalisation by the way - not talking about anyone on here!).

2. And, like Diny, I'm not that keen on foul language - not that prudish but also not happy to use words like f*** when there's kids around.

So, won't be posting for a while, if ever again, but I'll keep popping back to have a look while we're still considering what to do. Good luck everyone, THANK YOU for all your helpful comments, and lets hope we all get to where we want to be!

Best wishes,

Debbie

[veronica]

Hiya, note to Diny, you'll have to be amazed cos I have not been called a pommie to my face since we have lived here, and when we lived in Oz we were never called it in a derogatory way either. Only in the sense of people calling us their pommie mates when they introduced us. Some of the nicest people I know are Australian.

Hey Debbie, don't leave us. Its not paradise here but nothing like the more extreme views being posted here.

On Perceptions theme we watched house prices going up while we were making the decision to come here and have been unpleasantly surprised at food prices. We were expecting it to be insular here, distance and economics to a certain extent will cause that. Some people here do have a old school tie sort of attitude, which is a minus thing to us, but they are in the minority and easily avoided if you don't like that sort of thing. One of the biggest pluses to us is the emptyness of the beaches when we walk the dogs, pretty much our perceptions were reasonably accurate though.

[DLW]

Hi,

Veronica, I'm not sure the views posted on here are extreme! People post what they are experiencing... which, sometimes, may not ne the norm, but it's what they are experiencing, so musn't be discounted!... people who are thinking of selling up and spending a heap of money, uprooting their family etc etc should have as much info at their fingertips as possible, good & bad!.... As long as it's all there they can make up there own minds!

I'm not extreme in any way, but I believe in telling it like it is..... it's no good flowering it up. If you have had a bad experience, or something about NZ has surprised you / or even shocked you....tell it... it might make someone else less shocked!

I don't want to put anyone off trying living here... if they are 'fairly' sure they want to do it.... as this forum shows... everyones experience is different.... but I'll say it again.... you can't have too much info!

People have a real right to post their views without being labelled as extremist, it really does depend on their individual experience...... I bet if you had spoken to the unfortunate family that had their car / dog stolen within a few days of arriving that their views on NZ would have been not the best..... but it's not to say that it didn't happen to them or that they were extremist..... there are many a happy tale on this site but equally (or I think unequally.... as people who leave probably don't contribute anymore) there are tales that have not ended so happily!

[jewelsvani]

Veronica and Diny

You have mentioned that you have lived in AUS as well as NZ, you obviously prefer NZ but WHY?

I am in the delimea where I am choosing between the two countrys NZ wins at the mow because it suits our situation.

Anyway once again why did you leave AUS?

Thanks for your response. :)

Jules

[Avalon]

What really got to me on Jim's post was not his opinions but his hypocrisy (sp). On the one hand he was calling Kiwi's racist and on the other he blantantly generalises about the greed etc. of not only Kiwi's but also Arabs.

But you can applaud someone who makes a rather unpleasant (and racist) comment about a British person? If its not OK for Jim to say such things then its not OK for PakehaBoy (or anyone else) either! Could we at least have a level playing field? Its not as if Pakehaboys comments actually answered the question posed - its just a dig at someone. How is that acceptable?

As for manners I have never come across 1 rude kid in my 3 visits there.

But isnt that the point of this thread? There are many perceptions I gained from my visists to NZ - not all of them were true when I came to live here. I never realised how rife violence could be here, I never believed for one minute all the "Bad things" that Kiwis tried to tell me. Living here IS different. Jim is telling you HIS experience. It may not be yours, and I hope it isnt.


As for estate agents fighting over money in Sales that's what people do

I guess you will find out soon enough. It IS different. The whole technique is different, and there are a dozen more ways available for them to rip you off. They charge differently and they get paid bribes (Kickbacks as they are so eloquently called). Ive got no problem with anyone making a buck, but honestly - these people are the lowest of the low (imho).

As for greed I have never lived in such a wastful throw away society that is the UK and it's getting worse. If it's broke just buy anther on the plastic and sod the debt. In NZ they mend and make do most of the time.

NZ is cathing us up fast! Credit card debt is rife here, as are debt consolidation schemes. I did have some numbers on how much NZ household debt has gone up -but I dont have it anymore. Its frightening, and we arenet talking mortgage debt either. Though many people are taking equity out of thier homes and using thier "revolving credit".

remeber that also has its faults too as does everywhere.

That does include NZ. There are as many fantastic things here as there are in the UK, and as many problems.

[dave k]

[QUOTE]I'm not extreme in any way, but I believe in telling it like it is.....

I think we've pretty well established, though, that "it" is a fairly mutable concept.

People have a real right to post their views without being labelled as extremist, it really does depend on their individual experience......

They have a right to their opinion, yes. What I would dispute that they have a right to is presenting their opinions as some kind of "straight-talking" fact based upon nothing more than their fairly limited experience.

I mean, ...I never thought NZ would be some sort of Holy shining beacon of togetherness in a world gone mad! I thought perhaps it may have more going for it - being a young & vibrant country & all - but was equally as prepared to accept the inevitable downside to those expectations.

I'm sure all the folk who read this know the real skinny in any case - if you think the people of a certain place are gonna be axxxxx, you can bet your expectations will be met. Surpassed even.

Up to you.

[dave k]

But you can applaud someone who makes a rather unpleasant (and racist) comment about a British person? If its not OK for Jim to say such things then its not OK for PakehaBoy (or anyone else) either!

Ahh, c'mon..lighten up Avalon. Pom is not generally used as a derogatory term in NZ.
And if it ever is, the intention is pretty clear . Pak boy's intention there was clearly in jest. ( And rightly so!). But if they do... you fire straight back with whatever sheep joke comes to mind..I've yet to hear a kiwi take real offence to anything like that.

[gil]

Hi Dave,

Just to let you know, I am on the receiving end of sheep jokes very regularly being Welsh, and most of the work I do is across the Severn in England. Whilst I never take offence out loud, it does grate on me and I often think, through gritted teeth, " Not again, it wasn't funny the first time....."
So, just cos you don't get an offended outburst doesn't mean there's no internal irritation!
Gil

[Diny]

Donna - good post. I've been reading this thread through again and have come to the conclusion that no matter what a persons experiences are they're going to get 'knocked'.

Let's face it - people don't sit here and write lies, they write about what is relevant to THEM, what experiences THEY have had and how THEY find their lives are working out since arriving.

At times I read others posts and applaud what they write and agree 100% with their comments. Other times I ask 'what are these people talking about'. Some of the comments I read on here hold NO likeness to the NZ I've known for the last 15 years - the writer could be talking about a completely different country. But that's not to say they are wrong - they are simply talking about THIER own expereinces and perceptions. My advice is take everything on board but understand that for every up there is a down, for every white there is a black and for every happy experience there's a sad one. Come and see for yourself !!!!

Jewelsvani - we lived in Australia back in the late 80's. We spent a few years up in Darwin in the Northern Territory (aswell as living in Melbourne for a while and working in WA). I was on my big O.E when I met my hubby while we were both working in a goldmining settlement in the Simpson Desert.

We ended up in Darwin and stayed there for a few years with his job (he works in the oil industry).

Don't want to weigh down an NZ forum with talk about Oz - but if I was asked if I would live in Oz again the answer would be a definate NO. My reasons are very valid to me - they may seem otherwise to somebody else. Yet again - there's another country that has good and bad - and one persons opinion is not necessarily right or wrong.

Now then .... is it just me or is there a distinct lack of humour on this forum these days? I remember the days where a person could take the micky out of somebody else and it was taken with good humour. There seems to be so many serious comments and discussions these days. Of course we all need to ask questions and hope the answer will arrive, but I long for the 'olden days' when it was done with occasional mirth and 'leg pulling'. I guess we're all guilty of this. Let's try to lighten up a little. It doesn't mean we're being flippant, disrespectful or un-intelligent - it just means we're having a laugh. There's more than one way to skin a cat you know - it doesn't always have to be so serious, PC, touchy and (at times) a little tiresome.

Bring back the old times ....... where ever you are - UK or NZ !!!!!!!!!!

Diny

[dave k]

Hi Dave,

Just to let you know, I am on the receiving end of sheep jokes very regularly being Welsh, and most of the work I do is across the Severn in England. Whilst I never take offence out loud, it does grate on me and I often think, through gritted teeth, " Not again, it wasn't funny the first time....."
So, just cos you don't get an offended outburst doesn't mean there's no internal irritation!
Gil

Really though, all that name-calling is just a levelling device. If it's delivered with humour and you can hack it & give as good as you get, there's rarely any harm done.

[Bubbles]

Now then .... is it just me or is there a distinct lack of humour on this forum these days? I remember the days where a person could take the micky out of somebody else and it was taken with good humour. Let's try to lighten up a little. It doesn't mean we're being flippant, disrespectful or un-intelligent - it just means we're having a laugh. There's more than one way to skin a cat you know - it doesn't always have to be so serious, PC, touchy and (at times) a little tiresome.

Bring back the old times ....... where ever you are - UK or NZ !!!!!!!!!!

Diny

Couldn't agree more Diny.
The emmigration process is stressful enough, so on that note................

I've just seen this on an NZ based fishing forum and thought I would share

Well it made me Lol lots and lots. ;)



Your wife decides to go out with her friends drinking and dancing.
You're okay with it, because you get to watch sports all night.
You hear her stumble into bed around 4am and laugh because You know
she's going to have a monster hangover.


You wake up the next morning and go outside to the family Volvo, Which
she used last night.
You sigh in relief because it's all in one piece.
You circle the car looking for dents and find none.

But ................................................. WAIT A DAMN MINUTE!!!!

What's this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!








http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/squonk/Wifes-volvo.jpg



:laugh

They're coming to take me away, ha ha, he he.

Call a moderater, Quick. :uhoh

[Moorf]

Well I must be one of those with no sense of humour, because I thought this thread was great until the last few pages - oh well, how boring I must be. I guess my thoughts are that there's a time and place for everything.... sorry if anyone feels the moderation on here is too strong and that we don't like bad language or posts that could be taken as offensive - I don't make the rules - I just try to uphold them, it's not too far down a slippery slope to chaos on forums... and I actually value the fact that this forum has maintained a level of decorum, discussion and yes, politeness that makes everyone feel welcome, unintimidated and free to express their views..... added later: there are people on this forum who have not liked the way this thread has gone, and yet feel they can't comment openly about that on the forum...

[gil]

Hear, hear Moorf! I nearly didn’t post this because I know it could get the “boring/worthy” response and I struggle with conflict/confrontation of any degree on a personal level! (It doesn’t mean I can’t see the value that some people get from it, when they describe what I see as an unsettling confrontation as a good, challenging discussion!)

There is one thing bothering me though:




Really though, all that name-calling is just a levelling device. If it's delivered with humour and you can hack it & give as good as you get, there's rarely any harm done.





My question would be: how would you really, really know there was no harm done?



Personally, I’m all for humorous, light-hearted, entertaining and fun/funny in atmospheres and relationships. "Heavy"/PC etc can be extremely tiresome and wearing, especially if it’s not your own perspective, just as Diny pointed out
(:nice1 ) but banter can tread such a fine line between being hilarious and oiling the wheels of a relationship and being snide and destructive.
Trouble is, it's hard to write it as you'd say it, with the smiles, winks etc, despite the emoticons!

Off to make celery soup now,
Gil

[marcia]

Well I would just like to say that this thread has opened my eyes, given me lots to think about, I'm gonna make sure Kev reads it too, even though it may take him all night! :p

I would like to thank everyone who has posted their personal opinions, and experiences, the good, the bad and the ugly!

It has certainly given me food (not sausages! ;) ) for thought!

[kiwidebs]

Well, I have really enjoyed reading this whole thread. It has been really interesting and def alot of food for thought. I've been really worried about the financial aspect of the move for us - I worry that it maybe it isn't in the children's best interest to move as we're financially stable here but I'm not so sure how well off we'll be in Auckland (not that money's everything). So it has been interesting to read how those of you who've made the move have coped.
It brings to mind that saying that goes something along the lines of 'one man's meat is another man's poison'. We all see things in different ways I guess. I'm now in 'suck it and see' mode - we've talked about the pro's and con's and what happens ifs....and I guess if it doesn't work out we can come back here or Aus or Singapore or.....

Keep it up folks, its certainly livened up the forum a bit ;) .

Debs

[leosus]

[QUOTE=dave k]




I never thought NZ would be some sort of Holy shining beacon of togetherness in a world gone mad! I thought perhaps it may have more going for it - being a young & vibrant country & all - but was equally as prepared to accept the inevitable downside to those expectations.

[QUOTE]


I couldn't have said it better myself!

[Hannah]

Maybe need a separate thread called "sausages"

What's the NZ obsession with sausages - there are even links to sausage machines on this website!!! Weird.

Guess I'll find out for myself when we arrive...

[louron]

[QUOTE=Pakeha Boy]From a typical ignorant foul mouthed uneducated racist oaf, with no idea of world events, I have to ask Jim... why didn't you mention the sausages? I mean, they're important too, right? Nobody else likes them, but they're all staying?

/QUOTE]

I know I'm a bit behind the times here but have only just caught up with this thread and the above is one of the funniest posts I have ever read on this forum, it makes me laugh every time I read it :nice1 .

With regard to the thread in general I've found it really interesting and like others I think its really important that those of us planning the move hear the negative aswell as the positive, so keep those views coming!

[Diny]

I agree that this thread is brillaint. My comments about the lack of light hearted humour was aimed at the entire forum. Nothing to do with the 'duties' of a mod.

But hey - I rest my case.

You all have a happy day now you hear !!!!!!

Diny

[Diny]

And Bubbles ....... that story & picture is brillaint !!!!!

Good on you !!

Diny

[Avalon]

Ahh, c'mon..lighten up Avalon. Pom is not generally used as a derogatory term in NZ.
And if it ever is, the intention is pretty clear . Pak boy's intention there was clearly in jest. ( And rightly so!). But if they do... you fire straight back with whatever sheep joke comes to mind..I've yet to hear a kiwi take real offence to anything like that.
As always - its not racist if its leveled at a Brit?

Please do NOT tell me to lighten up! Its not funny. The last comment Pakehaboy made was not funny - it was an attack against a person and it was racist.

If he had said that about an arab, you would rightly be up in arms about it!

I dont care whether most people using the term "Pommie B******" are not being derogatory. Its not nice. Change the word Pommie to any other name for any other ethnicity (say Muslim). Is it OK now? Is it funny?

Jims "intention" was to give his point of view and experience - and you blast him because it offends you. Pakeha boys "intention" is to be funny, adn It offends me - but thats OK?

And you may think its ok to satrt telling "sheep Jokes" to a kiwi, But please dont expect me to behave like that!

[Avalon]

.

Really though, all that name-calling is just a levelling device. If it's delivered with humour and you can hack it & give as good as you get, there's rarely any harm done.

Tell that to every child being bullied in school right now!

Im sure they would love to know that its just "levelling"! Hey they may even come to realise its good for them!

For gods sake! No Harm done by name calling!

Tell that to every muslim in the UK right now who gets called a "terrorist" just becasue of the way they look.

Its NOT OK Dave - really - Its not.

[Avalon]

Maybe need a separate thread called "sausages"

What's the NZ obsession with sausages - there are even links to sausage machines on this website!!! Weird.

Guess I'll find out for myself when we arrive...
Its safely over on the Lounge.

[Soon2baKiwi]

My MIL told me that when she arrived here in the 50s there were POMs and Englishmen. Now, don't shoot me - I'm only repeating what I've been told and what was the order of the day. Anyway, Englishmen were well liked, respected and got on well with everyone but POMs?????? Well, that term was used to describe all the people who expected NZ to conform to THEM instead of the other way around.

I've had to listen to so many Irish jokes over the years, people (trying to) imitiate my accent etc.etc. You know in your gut if someone is getting at you (and I was bullied at school so I DO know) and if they're not, why would I take offence at something that's not meant to be hurtful? The only person over here who annoys me in this respect is a Welshman who just wouldn't stop putting on a stupid Oirsih accent, but I threatened him with grevious bodily harm if he did it again :D and that sorted that out :yes

If a person wants to be offended it can be achieved with no problem at all IMO but pioneers didn't forge a new life for themselves by taking umbrage at every real and imagined slight. And I consider myself to be a pioneer - off now to take cover behind the wagons :laugh

[Diny]

but pioneers didn't forge a new life for themselves by taking umbrage at every real and imagined slight.

Well said - there's no improving on that comment !!!!!!!!!!!

Diny

[veronica]

Hiya Donna, just because I say 'extreme' when talking about the views posted over the whole forum doesn't mean I am labeling the people who post those views as extremist. its just that they are expressing views quite a bit outside the norm, and the vast majority of us live within the norm.

I totally agree that everybody has different experiences in life, whether it be here or in their home country, some of that is circumstances and some of that is their own outlook and personalities. It is right to post these views but I don't think anything is gained by any of us if those views are posted in an aggressive or offensive manner. While I am sure that the views are perceived to be true we all see the side we want to see. Some of the baggage that we bring over with us is not just the stuff that comes over in the container.

Some people are discontented whereever they are, and as Diny mentioned earlier some people are just the glass half empty/full sort, thats going to affect how they settle.

On the original point of this thread about our perceptions v reality I do worry lots about people who are so full of NZ that they can see no fault. The faults are here, ie life is pretty much the same as the UK on a 9 to 5 basis but there are differences, for all of us those differences will vary, for me living near the coast AND the mountains is a joy, but for someone from a different area to Essex that wouldn't necessarily apply.

And on the subject of Essex, do you think we don't know about the jokes and the peoples perception thing. I can assure you that having had two daughters and a foster daughter growing up through the essex girl jokes heyday it wasn't a lot of fun, but we all put up with it,and laughed at some of them too, the same as the Irish and the Scots.......but perhaps we shouldn't have....it is a form of racism. Taking the PC side of things away with all these things, name calling, jokes etc. its very often not whats said but the way or the attitude they are said with thats offensive, not the actual words.

[Diny]

Hear hear.

[ENZ]

In response to a dozen PM’s (the most I’ve ever had on any topic,) I’ve now edited some of the posts in this thread to comply with forum rules.

http://www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3777

I know this won’t please everyone, but these rules have been in place since the forum began.

It has always been our intention for everyone to feel comfortable on the ENZ forum and we do take action when our rules are broken.

Many of our members have joined this forum precisely because of the lack of “bad language” and “flaming”.

Jim’s posts were provocative. I received two PM’s complaining about his comments about “the average Kiwi”, “Arabs”, etc. Jim’s posts have now been placed in a moderation queue. They need to be manually approved before they appear. The manual approval process is not intended to prevent Jim making substantive points about the “bad things” in New Zealand. It is intended to prevent flaming and deliberate provocation. (Jim made a further post in this thread which I deleted.)

Even if you do not agree with our actions, I hope you can accept them and appreciate that everything we do is in the interests of keeping the forum friendly and civil for the benefit of all of our members and anyone else seeking information about New Zealand.

All of the substantive points about New Zealand– and that is what this forum is all about – have been retained.

To draw a line under the PM’s I’ve received, I’ve now locked this particular thread. If Alex, (or anyone else,) wants to start a new “from perceptions to reality ” thread, please do, because many of the substantive points made in this thread have been wonderfully informative.

Thank you,

Douglas