[Alex]

Hi Everyone,

I guess this is spawned from Bruckner's thread http://www.emigratenz.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4359 "Tell me why you did it". It was good that Diny, Avalon et al gave their advice and warnings, as they are now living in NZ, and know what it is really like, as opposed to just dreaming about it like I am, and many of us are.

So can those of you who have made the move to NZ tell us what the major differences to your perceptions / preconceptions of NZ were? What shocked you? What surprised you / or didn't? Best things / worst things? Things you do now that you thought you never would, or conversely things you don't do that you thought you would.

Thanks in advance, and looking forward to the posts :nice1

[StevieD]

Good advice Alex. There are always dreams and reality. A visit to a country is not the same as living there, although it gives you a better idea of the place, what it looks like, feels like etc. So for those of us who haven't been, gleaning as much information as possible is important. And that is where this forum comes up trumps. It is invaluable in answering questions we may have and you will always find a helpful "voice" on here.

[clg]

I will add a few things. Things better than I though. I can get just about anything I want here, better availablity of food than I thought. I even found corn tortillas and am going to lunch at a Mexican place today run by Mexicans that is supposed to be good... We will see. Wind in welly is real but so far it does not really bother me, I kind of like it. Not missing LA at all, missing people but we talk on the phone lots. Vonage rocks. Drivers here are not as bad as I feared (lots of posts on this), guess LA drivers must be bad too but I am used to people not signaling and cutting you off so not really an adjustment for me. People have been very friendly, we are meeting more and more people. Cell phones are expensive here per minute but I have found I use it far less than in the states and our ammount spent per month went from US 70 to less than NZ 20. I love Wellington and my commute is a breeze. Oh yeah... Fish and Chips...

Things worse than I thought TV here is terrible. I really miss all of the US shows, we get them here I just don't know when. I have not been very happy with my job but I am talking to my employer about moving to another area and I think that will help a lot. This has been the worst thing for me, not liking what I do for 40 hours a week but this will change one way or another. It is expensive to live here BUT we are only on one income and used to be on two, that will change at some point. Wine/beer are expensive. I really want to try the wine here because it is very good but it just costs so much and I have a hard time justitying paying NZ 10-20 for a bottle of wine, it is more than I am used to. I am going to start brewing my own beer though, that will be fun!

Still have only been here almost two months but we are happy. This forum has been an incredible resource, we really came prepared, and I think after I get my job sorted out and we develop a social circle I will not have much to grip about.

Chris

[Diny]

Oh heck ...... here goes: Don't really know how to write this so I guess just a +/- list will have to do.

Being a glass half full kind of person (well at least I try to be), I'll note the positives first.

I'm pleasantly suprised by the friendliness of people. Have come across some downright rude & ignorant Kiwis in the past who have made it plain that I wasn't welcome in the country - thankfully that seems to be largely an out-dated attitude, 99% of 'locals' I've come into contact with have been great. I'm well impressed by the swift, hassle free way things get done. For instance - buying a house. Right from walking into the bank for a mortgage down to collecting the keys was VERY smooth, VERY quick and VERY simple. Hey - the bank even gave us a $100 gift voucher when we completed. The supermarkets are stocked with everything you could possibly need (no gravy granules though) - this is a vast improvement to when I first started visiting NZ all those years ago - it really does appear to have been grabbed by the collar and pulled into the 21st century (in that respect anyway). The roads are wide (especially in town) - great for doing u-turns when you realise you're going the wrong way. Although fuel prices have recently risen they're still pretty good compared to back home. You can register at any doctors or dentist you like, no being told they have their full quota of patients and being shown the door (well that's the case in Palmy anyway). Lemon trees - zillions of them. Of course the stunning scenery deserves a mention - breathtaking vistas at every turn - magic !!! Endless cafes and restaurants, some real cruddy ones but plenty of top notch places, all striving to be the best - good food at good prices. Have to give the fish & chips a mention here - first class and at a mere fraction of the price of those at home. Apart from the bank and the real estate agent we haven't had that much contact with 'officialdom' because Mark has the same job now as when we were in the UK, our experiences with 'red tape' are limited but from what we have seen things run very smoothly here - only time will tell on that one. Last week my dishwasher packed up, I called the service guy and he was with me the very next morning. The gremlins must have been at work that day cos the extractor fan/light in the shower gave up the ghost too. I called the electrician and he said he'd be with me in 15 mins. True enough - he was - and the job was so minor he didn't even charge me for it !!! He's coming back next week to fit a bathroom heater, I wonder how much that will cost? The car was due a W.O.F (same as the MOT at home). We took it to the local garage and were told to call in later that day to find out about it. When I called I was told it had to have some work done on the shockers and have a new windscreen washer unit. Expecting a bill in the region of $350 I nearly fell down the inspection pit when I was charged $55. The mechanic must have seen the amazed look on my face and just said 'well I didn't want to sting you 'cos you'd never come back if I did'. The other day Mark took the boys for a haircut. The barbers was packed and very busy. The owner was getting abit flustered and needed some change in the till. He didn't know Mark from a bar of soap but he gave him $70 in notes and asked him to nip to the bank next door for him to get some change !!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah - I guess all in all NZ has some really superb features, things that make you feel good and go a long way to restore your faith in mankind. But .................

Now then ........ the negatives. in my first few weeks here there were hundreds of them, as I get more settled they are getting less. Does this mean they weren't really there in the first place or that I'm just mellowing towards them - who knows? Things that 'get me' about NZ. In no particular order - just listed as they come to mind:

The vulgarity used in general conversation. I'm no prude and have been known to use the occasional expletive, but the bad language used as a matter of course makes my toes curl at times. Hearing some 'lady' of advanced years using foul language to describe something just about makes my skin creep. The toiletries and pharmacuticals (sp) - VERY expensive !!!! TV ...... utter rubbish, thank God for the Discovery channel. Yob/gang culture is rife, exactly the same crimes that graced our news reports at home occur here, anybody who thinks otherwise will be disappointed. How can I write a negative list without mentioning the houses - flimsy, cold, lacking guts and quite frankly not up to the NZ climate (which I have to say is not too different than back home). God how I hate NZ houses, I think they have to be the biggest bee in my bonnet. Clothing - the shops seem to be bulging at the seams with gear for annorexic 16 year olds and the fuller figure lady of advanced years. If you fall anywhere in the middle you'll be hard struck to find anything 'nice'. Any comments from the likes of Kim or Stevie D on that one are not welcome !!!!!!!!! Sometimes the casual approach to things can make me lack confidence in a persons abilities. Not sure whether I'm right on this one but it appears to me that NZ exports the best fruit it grows and sells the scrubby ones here (not the case for the veg though - it's wonderful). I'm bowled over by the price of lamb - far more expensive than I thought it would be. Sausages are digusting and bacon is too fatty (for our tastes). The Kiwi addiction to those revolting little mechanically recovered 'meat' things covered in red plastic that go by the name of cheerios - I dry wretch at the mere thought of them. Watties tomato sauce - an over powering taste of cloves !!!

This next comment may cuase a slight reaction 'cos I know it's going to come out wrong. It's very easy (for me) to feel that NZ life can be a little 'rough' - not very classy (there's that dreadful 'C' word). That sounds snobbish and I don't mean it to, what I'm trying to say is that it's taking me time to get use to the rough edges.

I'm now bringing a 3rd category into play. We have the positives, the negatives, now we've got the 'yet to decide' category.

The main topic in this category is the schools. I'm totally undecided on them as yet. On the bright side my kids have settled well and appear to be happy. On the downside I just can't get my head around the fact that they appear to have taken a step backwards. The whole approach is different. I'm not saying it's better or worse - just different. The jury is definately still out on this subject.

Anyway - there's my initial thought - what a ramble.

Diny

[Soon2baKiwi]

In all honesty, hand on my heart, I have to say that it's much better here in every respect than I had expected. TV, whilst it is atrocious is not AS atrocious as I'd been led to believe and it's been like that in almost every situation since we arrived. The banking system is brilliant, all utility arrangements are made with the minimum of fuss, you can get a service person at a couple of days notice. We were actually able to arrange for Sky to be installed on the day we moved into the house - no having to wait until THEY were ready to be of service to US.

Yes, the houses are not up to the weather, not even in Auckland where it's supposed to be warmer (I had my duffle coat on yesterday) but from speaking to Kiwis they KNOW that this is the case and I think over the next few (well maybe 20!) years you'll see this changing. But we've got a wood burner and a dehumidifier and the house is toasty warm so I'm happy. Actually, that about sums it up for me - I am happy. I love it here.

[jo b]

Wow Diny

you could work those, Rough guide books with that writing.

great reply

Jo

[dave k]

This is a generalisation I know, but I've found that kiwis don't tend to be very interested in us Poms.

One of life's great pleasures is gabbing on over a few pints about cultural differences ( wherever I am!), but the kiwis I've met just aren't that fussed about what goes on in Europe. Even the ones who've travelled about.
Maybe it comes across to them as bragging or something, because they do tend to be very insecure about their place on the world stage - whilst at the same time wildly over-praising any & every kiwi acheivement no matter how big or small. It's certainly not intended to be.

I've also not found much evidence of the much vaunted "laid-back" attitude either. Kiwis tend to rush around everywhere ( why walk when you can run/jog/skateboard? Why cruise when you can slam your foot to the floor and use suburban roads as your own personal racetrack? Why take an hour for lunch when you can stuff a pie into your mouth in 5 minutes whilst still working?)

Aw, I can feel a rant starting to build here so I'll leave it at that.

[jubjub]

From reading posts before I came here, I was expecting rubbish shopping, rubbish tv, nice scenery, quieter pace of life, and to struggle a bit for money, and to freeze in the house.

Shopping, is not as bad as I thought, you get a good range of stuff even in Pak n Save, only problem I have had is maternity clothes they cost a fortune, but luckily with trademe/factory outlets/Warehouse, I now have a few things to wear, and they are not old women stuff either. Have to agree with Diny, medicine/cosmetics are a fortune in comparison to UK, and I cant find a shampoo I like for the life of me. Prices of shopping is weird, some things are the same price in $ as they would be in £, some are way cheaper, and others are extortionate, cereals for one, nearly $8 for some of them.

TV, yup its rubbish, even with Sky there are nights there is nothing on, good job we joined the library.

Scenery, definitely up to and exceeding expectations in some cases, parts are very like the west central coast of california, and we loved it there too. And the roads are not queued for miles at beauty spots.

Money, we are just keeping heads above water with one wage, but any sudden expenses would throw us (hopefuly to be solved by a job change soon, watch this space, pay could increase by as much as 20%). All baby set up expenses are having to be taken from our UK fund (although we had allowed for this).

Its definitely quieter, the kids we come across daily on the dog walks are generally friendly and polite, even the older ones. the streets are wide, and very leafy, bit like the old fashioned tree lined avenues you see in the expensive bits of the UK. BUT the roads are straight and people with big exhausts love to fly down them at night, so it can be noisy.

Houses, first house we froze our nuts off, blankets, radiators, sleeping in joggies, the lot, it was a rental entirely wood, with no insulation and the heat pump did nothing to raise the temperature. Our own house, gets lots of sun (good free kiwi heating) and the house holds that heat, so we dont freeze, and have not had a fire for a few weeks now, the living area all has the underfloor insulation. but on the days where there is no sun, its a bit nippy, and the long sleeves come out again. I also feel as if I dont live in a city, we regularly get deafened morning and night by all the birdies round and about.

I have also found the medical care to be good too, clean hospitals, pleasant consultants, and a medical centre less that 200m away.

So far we have only come across friendly folk too, some are nosey as to why we are here, some not bothered and just chat away.

There seems to be less emphasis on burearocracy here, you dont need twenty bits of paper to get a library card. I went round for weeks when we were setting up everything with proof of ID and address in my bag, half the time I did not need it!

Generally lives up to expectations, and exceeds in some places.

Trying to think of things that annoy me about NZ, spose the mad boy racers is one, I hate those noisy toe rags. Still trying to find my way around what shops sell what, and it takes me longer to find stuff, but that will change with time. Clothes, agree with Diny, I suspect I may find that finding something suitable for a hip chick of my years may prove either problematic or expensive!

Think thats about it...

[Moorf]

From friends made on this forum, but mainly from friends made in Chch, I can tell you now that the overriding disappointments/problems, despite people doing tons of research, are houses and homesickness!! And the two together make for disaster and I'd say nearly all of those I know/knew in that predicament are going, or have already gone, back to the UK.



I can almost guarantee that when I bump into a fellow UK immigrant (and I do so on what feels like a daily basis at the library and nearly everytime I'm on the beach with Summer) the phrase "sooo many people think this is the land of milk and honey" will come into the conversation! Misconceptions about NZ life seem to be rampant. Usually the conversation starts with one of you saying "so which part of the UK are you from?", followed by "so how long have you lived here?" (insert optional remark regarding how they have / haven't lost their accent ) and the ritual ends with "so how are you finding it?".



At this point they're either going to shrug and remain indifferent stating "it's ok", or they'll gush with enthusiasm for "godzone" or moan like hell. But get into a conversation and nearly all of them mention the same 2 things that makes them most unhappy - yep, housing and homesickness.



Sure, money will be mentioned and the usual discussion about how on earth Kiwis can live on the paltry salaries will follow. On the whole, people seem to accept the fact that generally pay is pretty crap (obviously there are always exceptions). It's almost like they've already mentally prepared themselves for a drop in income / position than in the UK. So far so good. No misconceptions here.



But this is where one of the major problems appears to lie. Even though they're prepared to take lower salaries, few will compromise on a house or location!! If you're coming over to the main cities with your 2 kids and a healthy stash (and by healthy I mean around the $350k - $400k mark) then you would be in a good position to have little or no mortgage on a reasonably sized house in an decent suburb (depending on area - c. $300k / £120k / US$210k in Chch / Dunedin / smaller townships and rural areas). But you're going to need well over $400k / £160k / US$280 for a "good" city location (school zone/coastal/views etc).



So, here's misconception number one - property is cheap. Sure, when you're in the UK obsessively scanning the property sites there are cheap houses to be had, and some jaw-droppingly gorgeous ones too. But they are mostly in the sticks or over 45 mins commute by car to a major centre/school etc., or need a lot of work (as if you won't have enough expense upgrading the heating and glazing!). So if you're able to work from home, probably without broadband, and are prepared to live and integrate into a small rural community, then there's lots of choice. Or if you are buying with others and sharing the cost, looking for a serious do'er-upper or, in some cases, building your own, you can get some bargains. But on the whole, in the nicer locations within main towns and cities (i.e where the jobs are), property is no longer cheap. It is usually at this point that the comment "you'd be amazed how many people still think this is the land of milk and honey" make it's appearance, followed by a grin and a knowing nod, or "yeah, we were one of them" or "hmmm, we're just beginning to find that out."

However, if there's one thing worse than living in a less than ideal house/location, it's homesickness. If your house is cold you can shove more logs on the fire, but if you're hurting and missing family there's nothing much you can do except keep in contact as much as possible. Some people may never go through it. Some people have experienced it before and know how to cope. But to many new immigrants, some of whom may never have lived far from their families, the strength of the emotions can be more intense than they ever imagined. People have no idea how debilitating it can be, and no-one can prepare you for it. The huge distances magnify it, as does the time difference. Some people experience a sort of mourning, a loss. Some feel guilt.


I can think of a few people offhand that I've met in the last year who are now back in the UK (and one to Canada) mainly due to homesickness, and that's not counting any forum members. Most of them had nice houses, some were in great jobs (i.e pilot, doctor). I'd say all the families would say their lifestyles were great, but in all but one case where the family returned because the children wouldn't settle, it was the wives who instigated the return to the UK due to not being able to live so far from their family. I've had many a soggy shoulder when they couldn't reconcile their emotions of loving the lifestyle/new country with the overwhelming need to see, and be near, their family in the UK. And it just spirals from there as they pile the pressure on themselves - i.e if they go back they'll be seen as failures / can't uproot the children again / back to bottom of UK property ladder / this is the only chance / we must give it at least two years .....those are NOT good reasons to stay!



Since arriving in New Zealand for the first time ever last September, I feel I have been through about every feeling I could ever have about NZ. I’ve gone from being tree-huggingly enamoured with the place to despising it, and back again.



I was pleasantly surprised by: the lack of people outside the towns and cities, the scenery, the weather, the empty beaches, the wildlife, Monteiths, our new friends, efficient Councils/Local Authorities, medical system, cleanliness of the city, amount of green space in the city and the traffic (well, when you’ve had to sit on the Forth Bridge for an hour to get into Edinburgh in the mornings, I guess my max trip of 30 mins to the furthest library is a breeze!).



I hate: the hooners (boy racers) who are everywhere, crime/vandalism/gangs, the shopping malls, the speed limits (!) and the police car speed radars that can catch you when they’re driving towards you :mad: - basts, the class system (from my point of view it's alive and kicking here and I thought we'd left that at home :no ), the salaries and having to think twice before buying shoes and books :o !



To be honest, so much of your perception of life in NZ will be swayed by the style/standard of life to which you have become accustomed in the UK. For instance, if I’m used to creeping through the Edinburgh traffic at 5mph then of course I’m going to think the traffic here in Chch is fine – and vice versa – some people think the Chch traffic is terrible. If you’ve been living on the breadline in the UK and you can earn more in NZ, plus own your own house and car outright then you’ll have a different perception to someone who has left behind a large house, large salary etc.

The best you can do to prepare for life in NZ is to keep an open mind, try not to build up too many preconceptions, don't kid yourself that it's "a land of milk and honey" and be prepared to compromise - some days you're going to think the milk has turned and the honey's runny.....

Where do we stand one year on? We don't have any plans to return to the UK. Despite its faults we still feel we have a better life here, the only niggle being we don't like city life (but we figured that would happen!), but that's easy to change.... roll on the next challenge!

[Singel]

Oh, I love thread like this, not that I have plenty to say but just to give myself an opportunity to take stock of our life in NZ.

Living in a big city like Auckland which is surrounded by many lovely beaches is a big PLUS for us. We are fortunate that our offices are at the fringe where the rush hour traffic jam start, so travelling to work has been a freeze (under 30 mins one way). It is also the location of our workplace that we are not compel to live in Central Auckland which is highly build-up unless you could afford those million-dollar houses.

Salary wise, we are better off because of more take home pay due to lower tax.

Living wise, our area have many roundabouts and cul-de-sacs which deter the boy racers, thanks God for that, so peace and quiet here.

Food wise, I think it is heaven here especially seafood.

Clothing wise, I find the quality is not good for the price that we have to pay.

All in all, for work and living (lifestyle), we are better off in NZ.

[DLW]

Ditto Morph!

It's so hard not to have pre-concieved ideas of what life is going to be like, but if you can manage it, then it's not going to be a dissapointment.

You can add up all the things you hate about the UK and all the things you think you are going to like about NZ, but once you are here, things all seems to take on a different angle.

It all really does depend on the standard of life you had in the UK, but monetry wise I think nearly everybody will be worse off! That & missing family and even the feeling of not belonging would be the things that have surprised us the most and would be instrumental us going home.

DLW

[Avalon]

Fantastic thread!

Ill do the negatives first. These arent nesecarrily all things im not happy about - but these are the things that very much did not match our perceptions.

Our main misconception was that it was cheap to live here. How wrong could we have been? NZ is NOT a cheap place to live. We though a 1/3 cut in salary would be no big shakes. (In some circles – we would be accused of noticing such a lack of money because we are obviously “Materialistic designer-buying money junkies”, none of which is true, and thankfully not an attitude I have found on this forum). No Alan’s wage is upto (almost) his Uk salary, we should find it easier, but then our costs have increased dramatically with the new house. Its certainly not the “financial freedom” we were hoping for – but we are at least able to work towards it a bit easier.

Food: I’m going to go against the grain here – but I think its crap! Completely over processed. Sugar in everything. And why cant anyone in this country make a pork sausage that actually tastes like a pork sausage? And don’t get me started on the fiasco that is NZ bacon! Why can’t you get double cream? In fact why can’t you get anything other than single cream unless you want a stash of thickeners and additives in it? I Mean – this is a land of Dairy Farmers – home of Anchor!!! And eggs???? Almost all battery farmes or caged. Very few Free range, and not what you could call fresh. Thankfully Ive now found a source of decent eggs.

Cost of Books. Hideous. That’s all I can say on that topic! Totally caught us off guard. Thank god For Amazon.

Cost of Housing. Cheap if you don’t mind living in a shed. Otherwise – expensive. And when you do get a house – no heating. I had to grow up in a house with no heating – I think I want to move an and have a few radiators. If its all the same!

The banks! URGGHHHH. Hate them. With a will. They make the UK banks look positively Charitable. What the hell are they doing charging me to spend MY money! (And in the case of ASB, making me ASK PERMISSION before I spend a measly $2500! )Talk about Nanny State. Not only that – but they smugly think they are so much more advanced than the UK system. I was expecting something flexible and up to date. It really isn’t. (Now – to be fair on this I bank with First Direct, which isn’t exactly like other UK banks, so I may be biased).

Hoons: Ok, so I was smug. I was warned about it – but thought it would be OK. I mean – you get boy racers in the UK. Wrong! By the time we left our apartment – I was frequently close to tears on Friday and Saturday nights because we just couldn’t get to sleep (its not as if we had double glazing). 3, 4am and they are still racing up and down. What’s more galling is that the cops will do you for speeding at 110KPH, but they let these bozos get away with much higher speeds IN THE CITY. No one gives a stuff. These kids are killing themselves and all the parents can say is “Boys will be boys” or “it was a tragic accident”. No it wasn’t. Its like sitting back and watching while your child plays Russian roulette. In fact in many cases – the parents hand them the damn gun.

Buying a House. As bad as it was in the UK – they REALLY want to rip you off here. I was totally shocked when I found out some of the scams they try and pull. The reliance of Tenders and Auctions and not putting the flippin’ price on the ad! Again I had heard it was easy to buy – and in some ways it is. But its also even easier to get taken for a ride. You really do need to take anything and everything an agent says to you as an out and out lie and check it (independently – not with the people they want you to use).

Ok, now the stuff that is better than we expected.

TV (again – against the grain a bit!) I actually don’t mind it and find it better than I expected. On saying that – I don’t watch much TV. We watch a lot on DVD. Sky here is appalling though. Clunky and there’s not a lot on. Most of the American drams are on terrestrial TV anyway. And I got through a bout of homesickness by watching Inspector Morse repeats on UKTV.

Wineries. OMG! I’m actually beginning to get a taste for half decent wine (My credit card wishes I hadn’t though!).

Coffee. As good as I remember it. Its a world of its own, and not at all like the stuff you get ladled out in the UK. The coffee culture here is heavenly.

Work hours. My husband is no longer expected to be paid for 37 hours and work 60+. He gets paid for 40 hours – he has to do 40 hours. This has so many positive outcomes that I really cant stress enough how important it has been.

Friendly people. We have made friends here so much more easily. Not only that – but people in the shops are just generally pleasant and chatty. Even the girls on the checkouts in New World here are quite prepared to have a laugh with you. And as I was told would be the case – our neighbours are popping round to introduce themselves (though I suspect that’s more to check out that we aren’t “townies”.

Some things ARE cheaper! Hairdressers (£30 instead of £45 for a higher end hairdresser). Dentists – I just paid £26 for a checkup, scale and polish and x-rays. They were done at the same time (no making a 2nd appointment for the clean), and it was by far the best clean I have EVER had. Last time I went for a 2 minute checkup in the UK it cost me £35 – and then it was going to cost another £30 for a clean. And that without X-rays.

Nowhere near as many stealth Taxes. They are here, but by and large from what I can see – if they want tax – they take it up front.

I think that’s it for now.

More than anything I think people really do have to accept that NZ is NOT the land of milk and honey. NZIS really like to talk it up, and if you look at the Stats from Stats NZ – I honestly think thy at least halve the money numbers. (I actually heard someone in a seminar quote figures from Stats NZ for the cost of living that we at least twice what they are saying it is in their little booklets). We came with the attitude that we had probably missed something in our deliberations – and that it was going to be big. It was! It was the cost of living.


Hope that helps.

[Alex]

:nice1 Thanks very much everyone, your replies have given us much to consider. I think it is better to debunk the myths whilst we are still in the UK, and not after we arrive in NZ. :)

A mate of mine emigrated to Canada last year. I asked him the same question as in this thread, and whilst some of the things he mentions are specific to Canada, many things just come under the umbrella of "emigrating", here is his reply (edited to comply with forum rules ;) ):

-----
Hey,

I am now unemployed for the next three days. As I now have nothing to do with myself I shall paas my wisdom onto thee.

Things I found hard were adjusting to another culture especially one so tolerant as the Canadian culture. But, I'm getting over that. The next one is isolation. Motivate yourself to get out and do things, with work but try and make your own social circle. Even if its a meditation class. Remember you must get out and meet people. This sounds like I'm being patronising but its all too easy to fall into the habits of home and just go to work and come back + watch tv etc. This was our (and many other peoples) mistake. Needless to say we have changed this.

Next up, is "what have we done moving here" syndrome. This hit us after the winter. It is distinct from home sickness as you will start to exagerate the bad points of where you have moved to and compare it with England. My tip: DO NOT COMPARE. It is futile, you may as well compare an apple and an orange-its going to be different but thats the point, isnt it? It lasted for a few months when we couldn't see the bright side of leaving friends, family and home. Like all the other feelings this is going to happen and then pass with time. You may or may not experience all this but just giving you my side of things.

I did find that buying English newspapers and reading the death rape and murder stories quite helful to convince me I'd made the right decision!

Homesickness-now this is a biggie. You havent moved for two weeks right youve moved for life. This can be a shocker to the system and you should perhaps not look at it initially as a final move. This helped us through it.

Anything else is just a matter of being there for each other (cheesy, i know). You will really need each other during the first part of the move (see last email re: test of relationship).

On the good side it is unlikely that, if you stick with it through all the little things, you will go back home. Ive never been to NZ so cant say what its like.

I found that Canada has no major irritating problems. Its the little things that proved to be really annoying, for example:

No OHIP (NHS equiv) for first three months
Prescriptions are not free
Bank accounts are not free
Texting is not free (Canada is well behind on mobile phone technology)+ receiving a text is not free-accordingly, annoying texts like "I'm on the bus" burn through you credit
Canada has a small population so things you take for granted back home do not happen here
Having no credit rating when you get here-no loans mortagages for you Lee, yet. Unless I put 35% down (ya, right). Get a credit card as soon as you can to build a credit rating.
transferring your money-if your with HSBC its like screaming at a wall. Get a bankers draft and take it that way.
No decent fry ups, sandwiches etc.
Accomodation: We stayed in a hotel suite for 1 month before we got a place.

Have ready cash on you when you come into the country, Leave some in the bank account back home that you can draw if you get short.

I'll let you know any others as I think of them. One good thing about England is that it is so technologically advanced, compared to the rest of the world. You may scoff at this but you'll realise it when you move.

However, If youve read this far you are more than ready. Take the plunge, get out and do it and if it doesn't work (which im sure it will work)-well, at least you can say you tried!

Hope this helps.

Good luck.

Lee

p.s. appalling lack of grammar and punctuation but i really couldn't be bothered.
-----

[jewelsvani]

fantastic thread guys, particulary morphs response.
This has opened my eyes to the reality of the move. The houses do sound bad, I am still undecided whether I should go to aus or NZ I still don't know, threads like this do allow me to make accurate comparisons between the two countrys.

The way I read it is I will be living on the bread line in a hut out in the middle of no where freezing cold, can the move really be worth it?

I guess there is only one way to find out.

[jim4244]

Right...time for some straight talking! We began our application prcess in 2001, made 2 visits, and came out April 2005.

We have 4 daughters aged from 13 down to 4. I work in the Middle East on a 4 week on 8 week off cycle and make a "good" living.

I can honestly say that moving to New Zealand has been the biggest and costliest mistake, that we have ever made!

We live in Tauranga, which is in the Bay of Plenty (plenty of what I don't know) These are the observations my whole family have made:

1/ The avarage Kiwi is an ignorant, foul mouthed oaf, with no idea of world events.

2/ They are a very jelous race and have traits similar to many Arab nations i.e greed, deceit, hatred.

3/ Kywy estate agents fight over Brits as buyers, as we have money.Do not confuse friendship with greed. On a $500k house sale an agent stands to make $12,000 (yes twelve thousand)

4/ Education is very poor. If I hear anyone telling me about my daughters school sporting achievements, I'll throw myself off the nearest cliff. About 30% of kids who come to our house are illiterate.

5/ Manners are non existant.

I could go on and on but I feel myself becoming angry at falling for the old "NZ is the place that your dreams come true" routine!

My advice - Stay in the UK.....it will save you the expense, heartache, and truama of having to move back!

Europe has much on offer and its only when you have left that you realise how good you had things back home!

Jim

[Oregonkiwi]

Jim, I'm sorry to hear that you don't like New Zealand. But I think you're wrong on several points. Things like racism and manners - there are rude ignorant people in every country, that doesn't mean that using the n-word is socially acceptable, or that all New Zealanders are ignorant oafs. Also, if you're going to complain about the New Zealand education system, perhaps you should check your own spelling and punctuation!
Avril

[Debbie P.]

I'm shocked and appalled by your comments, Jim. If they are true, I can only assume that the many enlightened, intelligent, well educated and unracist Kiwis I befriended during the years I lived in London are the exception rather than the rule. Maybe they moved to NZ to get away from the 'ignorant foul-mouthed illiterate oafs' that populate their country of origin?

I'm sorry but I think your comments about 'many Arab nations' are also well out of order - again in London, I met many north Africans, Egyptians, Omanis, Kurds and Iraqis, and they could teach us Brits a lot about generosity and kindness. I'm sorry if your experiences are contrary to that, but I don't think you should lump all Arabs in the same category as the (relatively few) fundamentalists who really do hate us.

By all means give your opinions, but try to avoid offending any Arabs or New Zealanders who may also use this forum, as I'm sure they can't all be as you describe them.

I'm very disappointed - I enjoy using this forum because I think the people on it are basically good people who don't make angry and unjust comments about other nationalities - unlike another forum I looked at recently. I hope I'm not wrong.

And Jim, I sincerely hope that things work out for you and your family - in another country if not NZ.

[jim4244]

Oh and for all the ladies - If you like to voice an opinion then be prepared for a big culture shock!

Jim

[jim4244]

Oh...and while I'm in full mank mode - were you all aware that New Zealanders are the best at everything, no matter what, in the world?

Absolute experts, who are never wrong about anything! LOL

Enjoy the "Land of the long white form"

Jim

PS Must stop now as I see that one of the PC members has held up the "Racist card". Obviously never been to NZ???

[Debbie P.]

Ok, well I'm prepared!

But God help the French, Spanish or whoever if they don't live up to your expectations. And I hope you're prepared to be fluent in the language of the country you move to.

[kiwidebs]

Hi Jim

Sorry you had such an awful experience. As a New Zealander I am trying to read past the offensive parts of those posta and try and pick out the other bits.

Actually, NO, I was going to write more but I don't see any point in feeding your anger. All I will say is please post considered opinions but try not to be too rude to the rest of us who post on here. I am not rude about England, and there are things I could say but I chose to come here and stay for 9 years, so I put up with things that are less than perfect - I just ask that people afford me the same courtesy. I know NZ is less than perfect, and I have no problem with people posting about that on here but there is no need to be rude and offensive. There are some lovely places and people there - it didn't work for you but it works for alot of people.

Debs

[jim4244]

Sorry, but I have never considered telling the truth rude and offensive.

I stand by every thing I have said.

Jim

[Debbie P.]

Hear, hear Kiwidebs, and I'm sorry that you and other New Zealanders on this forum have to put up with ill-considered comments. Rest assured the majority of us don't agree with them.

And to the last comment - yes, I have been to New Zealand. I also have friends who have moved there and have positive experiences of the people - to the extent that one of them has gone into business with a Kiwi. I've stayed with them, met their friends, have gone shopping with my Pommy accent etc and have never encountered any hatred.

But I don't want to fuel this argument any further, Jim, so let's agree to differ. Who knows - maybe it won't work out for me either - then you can say 'I told you so'!

And by the way, I'm not going to comment any further - feel free to make any comment you like about me and my PC attitudes - I will ignore them.

[jo b]

All I can say to Jim's comments is

with an attitude like that no wonder you will attract the wrong people and you will no matter where you live.

Jo

[Cardiff Irons]

If I hear anyone telling me about my daughters school sporting achievements, I'll throw myself off the nearest cliff.Jim, for all your gripes, at least you can be proud of your daughter's school sporting achievements.:D (I'm joking Jim, I'm joking).

We're not there yet, so I can't readily take issue with anything you've posted. However, a few questions for you if I may be so bold.

1. Why do you consider your post to be "straight talking" (indicating by implication that the previous ones weren't)?
2. Has NZ got (in your opinion) any redeeming features?
3. Where in the UK do you come from? The area where I was brought up has all but one of the 6 negative observations you've identified (the exception being the estate agents).

Look forward to hearing from you.

Many thanks


Steve

[KD17]

What a thread ! Excellent post and well worth ready all the way through

I am one who likes to know what we may be getting into and what life will really be like when we get there. I don't want any rose tinted spectacles, I'd rather think the worst and get better than vice-versa.

In reading all your comments can anyone comment on what there is to do there, i.e. theatres, cinemas, etc., I'm sure there are lots of sporting activities, but what if you're not sporty.

I'm totally amazed at reading about the language used by the locals (women in particular) and the boy racers (I must have missed those earlier threads on this) is that only in the cities or is it the towns too?

I also thought it was an outdated attitude that women didn't have an opinion there, they have a women PM, surely that must count for something ;)

As for the TV, do they show much sport? we are very sports minded and we both (yes - even me, Debby) loves football. I will definitately miss watching the footie over the weekend, I thought we might be able to get that through Sky TV, but from what you are saying it seems not.

Maybe I do have rose tinted spectacles after all :uhoh

Maybe we really do need to pay a visit before we take the final plunge.

Living on the Isle of Man it is quite a different way of life and mentality than the UK and I would expect that this could partly be true of NZ. Although a very large, 2 part island, it's not particularly close to anyone else and I feel they are bound to be quite insular and protective.

I lived in the USA for a few years and found, generally, that they were very insular and knew very little about worldly events (unless it was a major catastrophe) so much so that I was staggered to find out what had really been going on when I got back, and there are still events which I find out about even now, some many years later.

Sounds like someone needs to open up a shop which sells those British goods we all seek when not in Britain, i.e. sausages, gravy granules etc.,

Keith & Debby
:cheers

[David with a dream]

This is great stuff guy's much better than watchin Eastenders!
Jim although we only had a few short months in NZ we did meet loads of really friendly Kiwi's.
Anyhow I guess you will be leaving NZ soon so good luck to you and I do hope you are happy where ever it is you land..........David

[dave k]

I stand by every thing I have said.

Jim

It's not NZ Jim. It's you.

And, as Jo said, I expect you'll find everywhere in the world you travel to will be much the same.

[Singel]

Jim, I was surprised with your remarks.
So far we have never meet with any animosity from the kiwis, maoris or pacific islanders, instead we find that they are nice and friendly people including those who are illiterate.

Anyway, sorry that things did not work out for you and your family. Hope that you will find happiness in another country.

[foolsgold99]

A lot of people are jumping down Jims throat here, sure his point is badly put in places, but some of the themes are shared by other people, in much milder terms.

I've read all this long thread with a varitiy of emotions (empathy, humour, dispair) here's my take on this and what I've read, trying to be positive in all I say, but I fear I may ramble in places, bear with me.

Never forget you are an immigrant. An Ecomonic migrant, looking to build a better life for yourself.

Don't be surprised that people aren't interested in the UK / US, or their events. People are interested in their own life, they don't care about where you came from, they expect you to assimilate. This is global, in the UK people moan about (mostly) islamic migrants, and cry out for them to assimilate. You're on the other side of the fence now, deal with it.

Before I thought about coming here, I'd have no interest in nz politics or news. Why would other people care?

Being a migrant is one of lifes great experiences, it's difficult and lonely at times, I grant you, but you should wholehartedly embrace the migrant experience . If you're precious about this, or looking for sensitivity then life is going to be rough. In the UK we had plenty of Aussies and Kiwis at work, we made all manner of sheep and criminal jokes. It's your turn now, deal with and now on.

Try not to complain, but seek to build. It's a new life in a new country, and it's still a young country, rough around the edges in places, but with the potential to be a great country. But for it achive it, you need to embrace and share the kiwi dream. If your house is cold, then either put on a sweater, or put in some heating. Don't tell kiwis that their houses are crap, no one likes a guest in their home to critise or whinge.

Walk a mile in someones elses shoes and try and see it from both sides.

[Alex]

A lot of people are jumping down Jims throat here, sure his point is badly put in places, but some of the themes are shared by other people, in much milder terms.
Excellent post.
I got back home and saw the number of responses to the thread and thought, "great, more good info", then when I read what had been written, I was a little disappointed. If you guys want to bicker with one another, fine, do it via PM. Personally, I'm not interested, and the post was intended to generate debate and comments about a serious topic, i.e. dispelling the myth of emigrating. After all, this is a complicated, involved and costly decision that we are making.

Jim's comments are valid. They may be a little "badly" put in our "modern" world, although they are quite typical of a "Northern" response - punchy, few syllables, to the point. Valid non the less.

My OH's parents moved to a remote Scottish island (due to work) and started their family there. They were economic migrants...sound like anyone we know? ;) And they found that they hadn't got to "rock the boat", that they had to "fit in" etc, and that they experienced real predjudice - bullying, comments, taking our jobs" etc etc. However, 30 years later, they feel that this was still a good decision, even though at times they found themselves in very difficult situations.

I'd like to know what awaits us on the other side of the world. So bravo Jim for your comments, and I'm sorry Debbie P, but this forum doesn't need a nanny. Besides, was that a thick seam of frippery I saw in some of Jim's posts? Stirring the barrel?

I think we should attempt to see things from a New Zealander's perspective - here we are on this lovely Island, and all these people - foreigners - are arriving with their great exchange rates, (relatively) lots of money, buying nice houses, getting well paid jobs, "doing good" for themselves, bringing their culture to the Island, and their inflated house prices. What are all NZ'ers meant to do...welcome us with open arms, like the returning messiah? Come on. Of course there are going to be challenges and difficulties, and maybe the odd snipe comment. But you get on with it, right? Adapt or die.

Thanks for all your posts.

I've read all this long thread with a varitiy of emotions (empathy, humour, dispair) ...

Couldn't agree more, and that was the point, keep 'em coming!

[dave k]

[QUOTE]A lot of people are jumping down Jims throat here, sure his point is badly put in places, but some of the themes are shared by other people, in much milder terms.

Jesus Christ also "shared" a lot of themes with the Crusaders in the 13th century :)


Don't be surprised that people aren't interested in the UK / US, or their events. People are interested in their own life, they don't care about where you came from, they expect you to assimilate. This is global, in the UK people moan about (mostly) islamic migrants, and cry out for them to assimilate. You're on the other side of the fence now, deal with it.


Well, forgive me, but I am surprised. I'm endlessly curious about other cultures & ways of life and have spent many an evening back in the UK discussing the world with people from lots of different countries.
The similarities & differences between various people's value systems, politics, landscape,customs, food, music, etc is the stuff of life!

I love NZ, and have no problems "assimilating" the good things about NZ life...I often walk around barefoot, eat heaps of BBQs, enthuse about the Rugby, passionately support kiwi music, frequently say "it's all good, eh?" and "she'll be right", embrace the #8 wire can-do ethos etc., etc. :D

But that don't make me a kiwi.

Vive la difference!


Walk a mile in someones elses shoes and try and see it from both sides.

Exactly!

Maybe you should suggest that to Jim too.

[Avalon]

A lot of people are jumping down Jims throat here, sure his point is badly put in places, but some of the themes are shared by other people, in much milder terms.

Never forget you are an immigrant. An Ecomonic migrant, looking to build a better life for yourself.

Try not to complain, but seek to build.

Walk a mile in someones elses shoes and try and see it from both sides.

I aggree.

I can certainly aggree with some of Jim's points. Others I have no personal experience of. But then some people like NZ food and Banks, I hate them. Some popel Loathe NZ TV and I think its OK. Just because I havent had Jims Experiences doesnt mean his points arent just as Valid as mine. I may have put it slightly differently - but his poinst are valid and certainly on a thread such as this - isnt it exactly what was asked for?

Never forget you are a Migrant. Such a good point and one I am trying hard to get on with. (Not sure im doing too well at it) All the things I struggle with is because this just is not Britain. I am the outsider, adn I have to fit in. I guess it comes down to wether you can live with being the one that has to make the changes. Not easy - not by a long shot - and I have to say - my own opinions on Migrants to britain has altered somewhat because of my experience.

Walk a mile - Too right. Not the easiest thing to do, but boy - once you live as a migrant - you at least have some understanding of what it means.

Maybe it is Jim that makes his view of NZ a bad one. But maybe its my view that makes NZ sausages taste like Crap. Maybe they really are the best thing since sliced bread. Doesnt mean I have to like them!

Try not to complain. Boy thats a hard one. Mind you - I dont really complain much when I think about it (except at the bank). Most of my opinions and dislikes about NZ I keep for here - where they can be useful to others.

[Avalon]

Well, forgive me, but I am surprised. I'm endlessly curious about other cultures & ways of life and have spent many an evening back in the UK discussing the world with people from lots of different countries.
The similarities & differences between various people's value systems, politics, landscape,customs, food, music, etc is the stuff of life!


I can honstly say that I wasnt. I have only become interested in the "world at large" since meeting my OH. It has opened my eyes to just how much I didnt know. So I actually dont find it too hard to believe that many In NZ would be just as uninterested. Certainly many of the Kiwis I have spoken really dont seem to know much about what is going on out there. But then the news here isnt that fulfilling.

I have been feeling a bit "cut off" from world events since I arrived here.

[T-R3xx]

Perhaps we should change the name of the thread to "Perception IS reality".

Another interesting thing I learned from spending too much time working with lawyers: There really is no such thing as THE truth. It all depends on what side of the fence you stand and what your objectives might be.

Is it too late to get back on thread? I really was enjoying the posts, especially since we are going to be there in 6 weeks (albiet a short trip), and I can hardly wait!

[Moorf]

I probably shouldn't get re-involved with this thread, but hey, it's pee-ing down outside and, until Dave K's sesh comes on the radio, there's nothing much else to do!!

A while back, when I was working in the surf shop, the comment "Oh, you're an immigrant are you!" came up in a conversation. The words hit me in the face like a brick... but, yes, I am! But in my little brain it was a dirty word, a person who drains welfare, ghetto-ises themselves and is generally a drain on society - this is the view I had of immigrants into the UK - sorry, but it was. :o So why shouldn't the Kiwi's have preconceived ideas about Brit immigrants i.e. loads of money, snobs, city-types-turned-country-lifestylers, whingers....

Quite honestly, if there's a joke about a Pom to be made at work, I'm probably the one making it!! Kiwi's, in my own experience, are not ones to hold back when it comes to personal comment and more than once I've been reminded about the "stiff upper lip" attitude, so take the comments with a pinch of salt and get on with dispelling the myth of the whinging Pom :D

[DLW]

[QUOTE=foolsgold99]A lot of people are jumping down Jims throat here, sure his point is badly put in places, but some of the themes are shared by other people, in much milder terms.

I agree with foolsgold. We are all more British than we think we are and often don't really say what we feel, or skirt around it, so we don't offend anyone!

I also live in the Bay of Plenty and tend to agree with everything Jim has said.

In the main people are polite, but there are a few who don't mind airing their dissaprovement of immigrants, believing that 'we' the poms have been solely responsible for the house price boom, and now, they or their children can no longer afford to live where they grew up etc. And as Jim also states, they are an insular nation, with little concern for what is happening outside these two Islands, in so, they are apparantley unaware that house prices have substantially risen all over the developed world.

You can almost smell the greed and see the huge look of anticipation on some estate agents faces when you open your mouth and hear your accent. Everybody assumes that you have brought over $400k - $500k and that is not always the case. You definately get the feeling that you are resented.

Going back to the insular nation; if anyone watched the Olympic coverage you would have thought that there was only one country competing. They certainly know how to blow their own trumpet, which just isn't British, is it?

And I don't know whether they are MORE racist than some brits, or whether they are more open about it, I have heard some shocking language, which kiwis seem to think is P.C.

The image I had of NZ was a tree hugging, greenpeace type, environmentally aware and nuclear free country with lots of social worker type people (apologies to any social workers, I have offended there!). To hear NZr's use really offensive racist language was a shock.

Schooling is behind the U.K. academically, but my children have grown in confidence, probably due to the kiwi attitude to encouraging celebration of achievement.

DLW

[Diny]

What a wonderful thread this has turned out to be.

I think Jims thread has most definately put the cat amongst the proverbial pigeons. I have to say that the way Jim put his views across was very rude towards our Kiwi members (standing up for my hubby here), and I don't agree with everything he says. However, if his views were written in a more eloquent and dimplomatic manner then I think they would have been more valid. But who am I to comment on styles of writing, I'm known for my wrong choice of phrase.

What I'm trying to say is, peel back the anger, the insults and the abrupt manner and you have some very valid points.

Reading through these posts has shown that one mans meat really is another mans poison. For instance, I think NZ banks are really good - Avalon thinks they're crap. Neither of us are right or wrong, both of us are telling it how WE find it.

I guess no matter how much research you do, no matter how many opinions of others you listen to, you need to come out here and live it yourself to see how you'll get on. We're all different, we all have our own likes and dislikes - it's what makes the world go round.

I've always believed that if you don't want to hear the answer then don't ask the question.

Diny

[Going2NZ]

Ah Diny - you always cut to the point! That is why I love reading your posts. This has been a fascinating thread and very educational. I have to admit, at first Jim's comments got me all tied up in a tangle. I am after all a PC kind of girl - raised that way by some very amazing parents.

After some thought, I'd like to add (or reinforce as it were) two points. First, Jim took a risk expressing his thoughts on NZ. Since this is an open forum, good on you. I am hoping not to have the same experiences but forewarned is forearmed so thank you, Jim. Since I am getting on a plane in less than 24 hours leaving a country (US) that has become both intolerant and a pseudo-patriotic love-it-or-leave-it place, it distresses me that his post has provoked such similar emotions.

And, second, reading between the lines in any kind of electronic communication is risky. If you read a transcript of most people's words, comments, etc. for a day we would probably all sound horrid. It is the context of the words that is so important – the body language, tone, inflection. Without that, we add our own subtext.

Anyhow, food for thought. Isn't that one of the reasons we all read the posts on this forem? Agree, disagree but don't attack. Jim's not innocent of provocation and I'm not trying to trivialize, lecture or "nanny" either but just wanted to share my reaction.

[dave k]

Yeah, forums are for everyone to express their views and opinions, and it's always good to hear what impressions new immigrants have of NZ.

However, I think broad sweeping statements like...

The avarage Kiwi is an ignorant, foul mouthed oaf

They are a very jelous race and have traits similar to many Arab nations i.e greed, deceit, hatred.

...are just plain foolish and deliberately inflammatory.

This guy has lived in NZ for 6 months ( and spent at least 2 months of that time in the Middle East) in Tauranga, and from this brief experience now feels entitled to dismiss all kiwis with the above nonsense.

If you wanna rock the boat, prepare to get wet.

[Avalon]

Perhaps we should change the name of the thread to "Perception IS reality".

Another interesting thing I learned from spending too much time working with lawyers: There really is no such thing as THE truth. It all depends on what side of the fence you stand and what your objectives might be.

Is it too late to get back on thread? I really was enjoying the posts, especially since we are going to be there in 6 weeks (albiet a short trip), and I can hardly wait!

OK, maybe I just misread either this, or the thread topic - but arent we supposed to be talking about how our view of NZ before we came matches up or doesnt to our view now? Our perception of NZ before we came here certainly ISNT reality. It may have been "our reality" at the time - but thats becaue we just didnt know any better. Doesnt make it real.

Truth - coulnt aggree more - good point. "Understanding is a 3 edged sword: Your side; thier side and the Truth in the middle".

Enjoy your trip! I hope you get see as much as you can.

[Avalon]

This guy has lived in NZ for 6 months ( and spent at least 2 months of that time in the Middle East) in Tauranga, and from this brief experience now feels entitled to dismiss all kiwis with the above nonsense.


Hey - it took me 24 hours to work out that Kiwis are incapable of turning dead pig into decent sausages :)

Seriously though - how long can we live here before we can have an opinion?

[markkellaway]

Hi Guys,

I have to say I don't post much any more, but found that I couldn't resist. The idea that NZ is any different from any other country when it comes to thinking they are the best at everything is plain ludicrous, the arrogance of English sports fans is famous the world over. You are in a different country, if you want little England then stay there. We've been here 2 months now and it has been pretty good at all times. Sure there are idiots, but then they are everywhere, in general I have found Kiwi's to be friendly and helpful.

Perception is one persons reality, not everyone elses. Just take everything on balance guys, for everyone with extreme views like Jim's there are a few who have a much maore balanced and positive view of New Zealand.

Mark. :)

[dave k]

OK. Here's a metaphor involving sausages.

If you disliked sausages the first time you tried them, you wouldn't just write off sausages per se as a hideous concoction of cheap pork cuts would you?

No, you'd try a few more examples & then decide.

If you still hated them after trying bangers, bratwurst, chorizo, salami, saucisson, saveloys, boerewors, etc. etc. I'd say you were sufficiently experienced to have an informed opinion.

And you can get good saussies here if you know where to look ;)

[kiwidebs]

I think Jims thread has most definately put the cat amongst the proverbial pigeons. I have to say that the way Jim put his views across was very rude towards our Kiwi members (standing up for my hubby here), and I don't agree with everything he says. However, if his views were written in a more eloquent and dimplomatic manner then I think they would have been more valid. But who am I to comment on styles of writing, I'm known for my wrong choice of phrase.

As a Kiwi I agree with what Diny has said (this is the point I tried to get across after first reading Jim's post). It's not his viewpoints I have a problem with. He's not the first person on here to dislike NZ and all it stands for after a bad experience emigrating there. That makes his experience valid for him and we all deserve to know about it - if only so we arrive there with our eyes open. However, I just feel he didn't need to insult me, my family, my friends and another 4 million or so Kiwis he hasn't met while making his points.

During the Lions tour of NZ I didn't comment on all the comments on here about the one-eyed NZ reporting but I did keep saying to my hubby that it was really funny to see you all jumping up and down cos the media was all 'NZ, NZ, NZ' - I've noticed and commented on the same phenomena from the other side that when the football is on, and even when the All Blacks tour England, it's all 'England, England, England' (I can't comment on the rest of the UK cos I've only lived in England). And I bet in the US they don't get pro-Brit reporting during the Olympics. It's not a NZ thing - its just that you're not used to being on the recieving end of that kind of reporting - you're used to being the subject of it. Isn't it nice that the whole country supports the Rugby/netball/....team?

Anyhow, food for thought. Isn't that one of the reasons we all read the posts on this forem? Agree, disagree but don't attack. Jim's not innocent of provocation and I'm not trying to trivialize, lecture or "nanny" either but just wanted to share my reaction.

I agree - but it goes both ways. I asked Jim to do me the courtesy of not posting in such an insulting way - as I would never say things about the UK in such a way. I chose to live here, all is not perfect, it isn't NZ in the Northern Hemisphere just with worse weather, but then, I never expected it to be like 'home'. Why did I come here? Well, lets see, to experience a different culture that is part of my heritage (my ancestors were from England/Scotland) and to see and feel the fantastic history available in the UK and Europe. Hey Vive la Difference (please pardon my French accent - its got a bit of Kiwi twang to it).

And lastly I felt Foolsgold put this well Walk a mile in someones elses shoes and try and see it from both sides.

Please post your experiences and opinions but try to be aware I'm not the only Kiwi who reads this - try to think of that when you want to blanket insult us all and think how you'd feel if it was your country being talked about like that (and as 'immigrants' maybe one day you'll feel a bit that way about NZ - just as I feel a real fondness for England).

Debs

[gil]

Agree completely with the sports reporting. I lived in Milan in the north of Italy from 1987-90 and so lived through Italian media reporting the '88 Olympics and the '90 World Cup. Their style of reporting was a real culture shock for me, with GB/England getting hardly any attention and Italy in the Games ditto!! In fact, I remember thinking that if I hadn't known the Olympics were on, I wouldn't necessarily have guessed from Italian TV!
My reference to the '90 World Cup has always been "Italia Novanta", 'cos that's how it was referred to in football-mad Italy. Never dawned on me to call it "Italia Ninety" and Steve (hubby) and I were at real cross-purposes at first when we were discussing it. Small linguistic difference but represents different worlds!
Anyway, "be where you are" is my maxim, suppose it's bit like When in Rome.....
Gil

[katandbob]

Good posts guys!
I have definately had my rose coloured glasses removed, but I am still determined to give it our best shot.

The 'Family'sickness I will be expecting, Home - well this place has not felt like home in 5-8 yrs, we live in a depressing area, hugely industrialised (the only place that looks nice, has nice villages and houses as far as I am conserned is the Local 'Lords' place - yes LORD - the villages on his land are small, clean, and no yobs - but since he owns it all he can pick and choose who lives there - mostly staff!) he opens his woodland from April to end August- and its been the only place that we have gone to and walked and felt relaxed all year - theres even a hill!!!! but I am going off track...
As for if we don't like it - I doubt I would rush back to the UK, I would first travel as you say once your out of the UK housing its start at the bottom again -- so you may as well try some other places.

But I will be giving it our all and not going with ill perceived notions of the land of milk and honey - and thats down to finding this site....

So carry on guys cause this is all I have to keep me sane while we wait for the kids to come free and make the move.

and on that note I better sign off and get packing or I will run out of time and it will soon be the 21st and the house will belong to someone else.....now how do i find homes for 30 fish?????

Kat

[Avalon]

OK. Here's a metaphor involving sausages.

If you disliked sausages the first time you tried them, you wouldn't just write off sausages per se as a hideous concoction of cheap pork cuts would you?

No, you'd try a few more examples & then decide.

If you still hated them after trying bangers, bratwurst, chorizo, salami, saucisson, saveloys, boerewors, etc. etc. I'd say you were sufficiently experienced to have an informed opinion.

And you can get good saussies here if you know where to look ;)
:laugh :laugh :laugh
OK, see your point! Thanks.

(As it happens - 9 months in and way too many cr*p sausages later - I have found one or two "Sort of bearable" sausages. But no decent bacon!)

[Moorf]

Avalon - have you looked online for NZ gourmet food sites? And have you tried Little Boys sausages ?? NZ sausage comp winners (big saussie fan me!).... :o

[Timbo]

The following advice from a kiwi mate half an hour ago kind of sums it for me;

when you come tim, come with a clean slate leave your expectations at the dump and take us for what we are....a bunch of mellow people who like to FISH HARD CORE!!!

This advice would be suitable for anyone moving to any new life, anywhere. Well, maybe not the fishing bit.

[Avalon]

Moorf,

Ive seen Little Boys sausages in Moore Wilsons, but to be honest they dont seem to have what Im looking For. Basically I want something that tastes like a "banger" if you know what I mean. So far the nearest ive got is (dont laugh) Ostrich Sausages from the greytown Butcher. Almost all other ones have spices in them (ginger i think) which totally ruins the taste. I also quite like Venison sausages - but again its hit and miss. Island Bay butchery have the best round Welly, and Blackball Sausages are pretty good, but only compared to NZ sausages as a whole.

Hadnt actually thought about gourmet websites. Problem is that ive now bought so many sausages to try them that Im getting a bit fed up!

Sorry for hijacking!

[toesonthenose]

I believe my open minded attitude toward NZ will help me if I ever emigrate. I plan to live in The Shire, at Bag End. My neighbors will be Frodo and Gandalf and I can't wait to see Rivendell. Of course for the time being I'll just stay here in Hawaii with my neighbors Magnum, P.I. and the plane crash survivors from Lost.
One of my favorite things about traveling or emigrating, is having your mind pried open and reality pour in. I am really enjoying this thread, keep it up!

[DLW]

I have made a major decision......I'm off!

Off to the REAL land of milk & honey!

Does anyone know where I can get an EOI for a hundred acre wood?

[jubjub]

I think you have to apply to Christopher Robin, and it gets approved by WOL.

Trouble is you may just get your head stuck in a honey pot..........

[Soon2baKiwi]

I've been here 3 and a half months and nobody has said anything to me about being an immigrant. I love their sense of humour, I never feel excluded in a coversation at work (and I work mainly with men), I hate the sausages but then I was never a lover of them anyway so no worries, I feel welcome here and tbh, if Jim acts like he sounds I'm not surprised he's got problems. I wouldn't want him to be my neighbour. I LOVE New Zealand - I feel honoured that I've got the chance to live here. There's nothing that aggravates me to the point that I remember it long enough to write it down and I think anyone coming here can have exactly the same so long as you remember it's not the same country you've just left.

[Diny]

Soon2BAKiwi ...... very well written post.

Diny

[Alex]

Well, looks like I've just found myself a very profitable job when I emigrate - Sausage maker extraordinare :laugh Looks like I'd have a captive audience, and gotta be more fulfilling than IT! Anybody want a business partner?

The local shop:
http://www.cowmans.co.uk/
http://www.cowmans.co.uk/thefullrange.html

[StevieD]

Maybe the person in the queue was only commenting on what he was seeing and listening to...??!!
God only knows we have all seen people like that and thought the same thing, no matter where they are. Maybe Jim needs to take a long hard look at himself and his attitudes. Seems to me he likes to live by stereotypical images as he sees them.
Apart from that, the thread is certainly entertaining and a little bit worrying. But I suppose we all go into this venture knowing that we aren't moving to another version or the UK, US or wherever we move from, or do some people think otherwise?
Like the stereotypical "Brits" abroad on their annual 2 weeks in the sun, having to be served "Eenglish" breakfasts, have the "Eenglish" newspapers to read, HP sauce (none of that foreign muck), is that what some of us expect?
No, I for one have spent years looking into this, and do not expect all to be rosy. I wouldn't expect to move down sarf from oop north and expect it all to be like it is up here - completely different outlooks, like chalk and cheese. I haven't had the luxury of a recce trip, because hey, I just can't afford to splash out thousands, because I have to feed and clothe my family in the best way that I can. But as a qualified engineer in corporate UK, I am working in a warehouse at the moment, but pride don't pay the bills. But a very interesting thread none the less, thought provoking to say the least :)

[Pakeha Boy]

From a typical ignorant foul mouthed uneducated racist oaf, with no idea of world events, I have to ask Jim... why didn't you mention the sausages? I mean, they're important too, right? Nobody else likes them, but they're all staying?

Top post though Jim, absolute cracker.
Would love to hear more of your views while you're on the way to the departure lounge...

[Timbo]

:nice1 Words fail me Mark. Absolutely priceless mate.
I will probably be told off for not moderating your post, but I honestly feel that under the circumstances, you have the absolute right to reply.

[Bubbles]

Hooray, :clap :clap :laugh

Pakeha Boy is back on form :nice1

Well said that man.
Timbo, I don't see a need to moderate/edit anything that was said in Marks reply...............................It needed saying. Good on him I say.

John

[StevieD]

Only Mark could put it that way!

[Diny]

Well done you sweetheart !!!!!!!!!!!

Good on you.

Diny x

[Soon2baKiwi]

Hehehe - thanks for the giggle on a Monday morning PB

[jo b]

PB

GREAT to see you back. And on top form too. This forum has been slacking on the Humour, come dig, come honesty bit from a true Kiwi perspective.

A big welcome back from me.

Jo

[sweetpea]

:nice1

PB, you rock.

[DLW]

On the topic of sausages: I think they taste all wrong 'cos the skin is too tough and too thick!

On the subject of Jim and his rant: He did word his post too strongly and made sweeping generalisations, but many people have made similar comments on this forum, in a less aggresive way. He should have chosen his words more carefully and not generalised, but he was obviously stressed and upset (not an excuse, I know, and I'm not making excuses for him). I understand that his comments have upset people but I think it's important that a balanced view of N.Z. is portrayed, good & bad!.

It seems that most of the people that post on here are not in N.Z. yet, or new to the Country and the opinions that they have are good and optimistic etc etc.

It's a shame that he didn't find this site earlier and maybe all those things that happened to him, might not have been a shock, or maybe he wouldn't have come over at all.

I'm sure that the people that do leave and go either somewhere else or back home, don't continue to contribute to the site!, which is natural, as they won't have any interest in it, or maybe its too depressing etc. ...So although the way he said it and some of the things he said he was out of order, People should say what is really happening to them and how they feel in order to give the future / would be / potential immigrants a fairer idea of what lies in store, and maybe a better chance at suceeding.

Posts like Jim's are good, because the encourage debate and openess. The more information the better, to be forwarned is to be forarmed! I'm sure everyone wouldn't believe that every single NZ'r is foul-mouthed etc and they can make their own minds up.

I used to look at this forum quite regularly before we moved over and I wasn't aware of the wide-spread use of bad language, and it seems to make no difference if children are around, and I can assure this does happen! So if all this discussion makes more people aware of some of the realities all the better.

I'm off to make a sausage sarnie!

[veronica]

I've been following this post for a few days and wondering how to make the most diplomatic answers to Jim, but I am afraid I couldn't come up with anything diplomatic that would answer him.

Very often you just get what you give in life and if you have an attitude then thats what you could well get back. Why did you leave the UK in the first place, Jim. Weren't you happy there either.

While I appreciate that this is a generalisation I also think that you meet very different types of people in the different areas of NZ. Although the far north is beautiful and warmer than chilly Chch as I understand it there is more unemployment up there, and perhaps more social problems to go with that (similar to Rotarua) whereas in the cities you meet a bigger spread of different types of people.

We have been here 18 months now and so far I have met none of the attitudes that are described in Jims post. We have been lucky and have met some super people, both from the forum and in everyday life and not once (to our faces at any rate) have been refered to as a pommie. not that it would bother me if I was, after all I regularly call the NZers Kiwis. (a not very clever, short dumpy bird that looks as if it was a tad short sighted, and never mastered flying!!) The people we have met generally have an interest in whats going on world wide, a lot of them have travelled and yes there is the odd one or two that have a very insular attitude but they are by far in the minority.

For anyone migrating over here keep an open mind and treat people as you like to be treated, works for me.

[DLW]

Hi Veronica,

I agree with you, do unto others etc.. I tell my kids that all the time.

Just wanted to point out, don't know whether you know or not Jim I think has left the forum, and Tauranga, also I don't think the swearing etc Jim talked about is a socio economic problem. Tauranga has the fifth most exspensive house prices in the whole of N.Z. and has quite an 'affluent' image.

I think I said before Jim was generalising (badly)... but I have heard plenty of really disgusting language, and once it was hurled unjustly at a 6 year old! It does happen and alot more than anywhere I went to in the UK. I don't whinge about it, I don't like it, if I were in my usual environment and someone swore in front of my children I would ask them to stop. But it's part of every day to day life here and normal, so I don't. I guess you either accept it, or do what Jim did and leave!

I think this forum was originally about people's perceptions and the reality of them, b4 the sausage theme ran amock! I had no perception of the 'swearing culture' but it is a reality. I'm not saying that if I had known about it b4hand it would have stopped me coming, but the less 'shocks' the better, and if you don't encounter it then it's a bonus!

[Nicola]

Sorry to move away from the sausage theme. But the thing that has shocked me most is the state of peoples skin. Maybe this is particular to Hawks Bay or is it common across NZ. I have met and spoken to a lot of women my age and younger, and their skin is awful, so badly sun damaged. Is it because cosmetics are soooo expensive or is it the increase in UV because of the lack of industrial fug down here. After a month I am starting to get used to it, but I still have to stop myself staring.

[DLW]

It's amazing! Like chinese whispers in a way. What started as a fairly serious topic on peoples' perceptions and reality etc has now ended up talking about women's skin! work that one out?

Not belittling (sp?) your post Nicola, I agree with you! invest in a wide brimmed hat and factor max++++ for your face, factor 30+ for everywhere else! and hopefully you won't end up looking like a well used handbag!

[DLW]

That's exactly it Avalon!

It's acceptable here!.....takes some getting used to....if at all eh? I have yet to called a wpb (thought I might make it one of the forum's abbreviations, as it is getting used quite often!) I'm not working but study, and I can honestly say.... guides honour, on my kids life etc.....I have never, NEVER been in the company of people that whinge so much.... and they aren't pommes, saffas, irish, welsh, europeans, ozzies, asians, russians, americans (incl s.americans), canadians,....lets see.... who does that leave? mmmmh! pot calling the kettle black me thinks!

[jewelsvani]

Interesting thread, I have hijacked my fiances username to post. ;)

This thread has made me question going to NZ at first anyway, but the more people post the more I feel like I will fit in. I hate people not speaking their minds it just leads to trouble further down the line. I for one am a straight talking no bullshitting person and this is what I would like to experience in NZ.

To all the ENglish posting on this thread, jims point about the kiwis being fanatical about their sporting greatness, you are absolutley no different. Believe me, I live in Cambridge but I am welsh, any football, rugby, cricket victory especially international victory is rammed down my throat at every possible oppurtunity by people I know in this area. Don't get me wrong I love living in ENgland and don't want to go back to wales it doesnt bother me that people are patriotic good on them, I do have a great time when they lose though, :).

I have met a few kiwis in my time, some annoyed the shit out of me but during my travells the greatest guy I ever met was a farmer from New Zealand, a absolute diamond. It goes to show that every country has good and bad people. I lot of how you fit in comes down to you and your attitude.

OH yes do people really walk around bare foot in NZ, because I really miss doing this, I used to do it all the time in AUS. :nice1

[DLW]

Hi Jewelsvani,

You are so right..... my point exactly....I've gone on about it long enough.... people should say what they feel, offer their experiences and opinions and people can make what they want of them!

Yep people do still wander around barefoot.... I think it's really sweet when I see kids do it... makes me feel that the streets are clean, no-one would smash a bottle etc...(not totally true, but the streets are a damn site cleaner than UK) But I can't stop myself staring when feet that have a few more years on the clock are out shopping in woolies naked!!! bunions, hard skin and all!

But each to there own, I'll get used to it as long as the naked foot owner doesn't start swearing at me!

for the record: not whinging, just making a comment!!!

[Diny]

Veronica - are you sure you've never been called a Pommie - not even once? I find that amazing. I get called a Pommie almost every day. It doesn't bother me.

When I lived in Oz I use to hate that name cos it was always almost spat at me - a name used with much venom - but hey - the Aussies - that's a whole new topic !!!!

Here it's used in a much nicer way, the other day I was referred to as somebody's 'new Pommie mate' ..... it was cool.

As for the bad language - it's rife and it's shocking. See my thread about unladylike road rage. I've been known to drop the occasional swear word but over here it's used (and accepted) in general converstion. The other day I went to the hairdresser, never seen her before in my life. I walked in and her opening line was:

S**t it's f*****g cold isn't it?

Charming !!!!!

Diny