T-R3xx
14th October 2005, 12:56 PM
I’d like to know how, in your experience, how NZ school discipline compares to the schools in the UK, US, SA, or where ever you come from.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Diny
14th October 2005, 01:41 PM
Hi Pearce
Going from my/our own experience I have to say that EVERYTHING about schools over here is different to back in the UK. I'd like to stress the word different - NOT better or worse.
As far as discipline goes we find that it's a lot more lenient/relaxed over here. The school our boys go to is extremely laid back and the teachers seem to operate a 'go with the flow' attitude. Again - this is not better or worse - just different. Back at home the boys went to a very small school which had set rules and regulations and the children knew where the line was and not to cross it. We were more than happy with that arrangement. Here discipline seems to be abit more of a 'wishy washy' area.
I'm sure folks will suggest that this is because Kiwi kids are so well behaved they don't need the 'tonne of bricks' style of discipline. Again I can only go by my own experiences but I can assure you I've not come across any staggering differences in the levels of behaviour between NZ or UK kids.
So to sum up - the discipline (and indeed the entire education) our sons are getting now is a million miles removed from what they were getting in UK. Part of me believes that the UK system was/is far superior but I am making a concerted effort to get use to things over here - and school is one of them.
Can I park myself on the fence?
Going from my/our own experience I have to say that EVERYTHING about schools over here is different to back in the UK. I'd like to stress the word different - NOT better or worse.
As far as discipline goes we find that it's a lot more lenient/relaxed over here. The school our boys go to is extremely laid back and the teachers seem to operate a 'go with the flow' attitude. Again - this is not better or worse - just different. Back at home the boys went to a very small school which had set rules and regulations and the children knew where the line was and not to cross it. We were more than happy with that arrangement. Here discipline seems to be abit more of a 'wishy washy' area.
I'm sure folks will suggest that this is because Kiwi kids are so well behaved they don't need the 'tonne of bricks' style of discipline. Again I can only go by my own experiences but I can assure you I've not come across any staggering differences in the levels of behaviour between NZ or UK kids.
So to sum up - the discipline (and indeed the entire education) our sons are getting now is a million miles removed from what they were getting in UK. Part of me believes that the UK system was/is far superior but I am making a concerted effort to get use to things over here - and school is one of them.
Can I park myself on the fence?
jo b
14th October 2005, 07:46 PM
Hi Pearce,
Although my kids aren't in NZ school yet I have friends whose children attend the school that my 2 will attend. It is a Catholic school and apparantly very strict. They send kids home if they don't wear their shoes. Now as Diny has experienced something a little different I think it is down to the school you choose. Like anywhere in the UK or the US the schools always differ with their discipline procedures.
So depending on where you are going to live will depend on how much choice you have regarding schools. If it's rural you will not have much to choose from. The more urban areas have more to choose from.
Not sure if you have this link
http://www.tki.org.nz/e/schools/index.php
Jo
Although my kids aren't in NZ school yet I have friends whose children attend the school that my 2 will attend. It is a Catholic school and apparantly very strict. They send kids home if they don't wear their shoes. Now as Diny has experienced something a little different I think it is down to the school you choose. Like anywhere in the UK or the US the schools always differ with their discipline procedures.
So depending on where you are going to live will depend on how much choice you have regarding schools. If it's rural you will not have much to choose from. The more urban areas have more to choose from.
Not sure if you have this link
http://www.tki.org.nz/e/schools/index.php
Jo
wanderingoregonian
14th October 2005, 11:20 PM
I'm still in the states, but since I work in education on my scouting trip I made sure to visit a couple schools. I was mostly in departments serving children with disability but to get there I walk through the hallways. Several students gave me directions and I was impressed by their politeness. Later in the day I saw a large gorup of kids over at the local chips shop during lunch - that was a bit of a mad house!
As for discipline in the special education class room I saw - it seemed to be to be based on respect for the student. The director called several kids over to show me what they were working on - normally this bothers me because the director just wants to show off and often doesn't know the kid well enough to do this without embarrasing them or asking them something way beyond their current learning - but this director clearly knew the students and had very high expectations but only asked the kids to show what they could actually do. They seemed to trust her, which made sense because she was setting the kids up for success and in the end I think the students were proud of what they showed me. I see some really strict "I'm in charge, you comply" teachers in the states, particularly when working with kids with autism (not everywhere, but these classrooms always leave a last impression on me) - and I was impressed with the approach I saw in the few classrooms in NZ.
I'm curious to see what other people have observed...
As for discipline in the special education class room I saw - it seemed to be to be based on respect for the student. The director called several kids over to show me what they were working on - normally this bothers me because the director just wants to show off and often doesn't know the kid well enough to do this without embarrasing them or asking them something way beyond their current learning - but this director clearly knew the students and had very high expectations but only asked the kids to show what they could actually do. They seemed to trust her, which made sense because she was setting the kids up for success and in the end I think the students were proud of what they showed me. I see some really strict "I'm in charge, you comply" teachers in the states, particularly when working with kids with autism (not everywhere, but these classrooms always leave a last impression on me) - and I was impressed with the approach I saw in the few classrooms in NZ.
I'm curious to see what other people have observed...
driver
14th October 2005, 11:46 PM
we were so impressed by the way the kids themselves ran the crossing patrol.
Can you imagine if a child in the UK tried to do that?
In Gisborne they had a barrier and a flourescent jacket and they closed off the road like a train crossing to let the kids through.
I don't know if there were any adults supervising but i didn't see any. So I guess they were self disciplining.
Can you imagine if a child in the UK tried to do that?
In Gisborne they had a barrier and a flourescent jacket and they closed off the road like a train crossing to let the kids through.
I don't know if there were any adults supervising but i didn't see any. So I guess they were self disciplining.
Do B Brief
15th October 2005, 12:18 AM
Kidz rule. that's the message we got from our kids school. Our eldest is due to go to college next (secondary - UK) and is looking forward to it as she is a social person and not academic, our youngest is academic and not that much into social stuff, he loves school and thinks its a laugh.
Whilst the NZ way suits our (previously diagnosed ADHD) daughter our son has started lacking in the academic side of things.
But there are little signs of bullying as there were in the UK.
If there was ever a case to send someone to a private school that would be my son. But my daughter, it appears to be ideal.
The teachers et al are really friendly and I think it is a case of help those who help themselves and the rest, well, they'll fall into line eventually.
I must admit, they are very quiet when you walk round the schools (after no announcment of turning up). They welcome the chance to show you round the schools without prior notice - try doing that in the UK.
Whilst the NZ way suits our (previously diagnosed ADHD) daughter our son has started lacking in the academic side of things.
But there are little signs of bullying as there were in the UK.
If there was ever a case to send someone to a private school that would be my son. But my daughter, it appears to be ideal.
The teachers et al are really friendly and I think it is a case of help those who help themselves and the rest, well, they'll fall into line eventually.
I must admit, they are very quiet when you walk round the schools (after no announcment of turning up). They welcome the chance to show you round the schools without prior notice - try doing that in the UK.
Daffy
15th October 2005, 01:11 AM
when visiting a few years ago, I noticed the school kids were doing the job of our lollypop ladies.
I thought this was brilliant and probably gave the pupils a sense of responsibility and belonging to there school.
I thought this was brilliant and probably gave the pupils a sense of responsibility and belonging to there school.
StevieD
15th October 2005, 01:58 AM
Plus saved the local council a bit of money too! Good idea though, gives the kids the chance to brave all those hoons burning up the roads.
I just know that there is NO WAY that would happen in the UK. The roads are so overcrowded, and there isn't much courtesy in evidence.
Back in the days when I went to a Catholic Grammar School in Liverpool (don't laugh you lot!), we used to have a prefect on duty outside the gate to stop us all turning right". This was considered beneficial to us from the boys school because the Catholic convent school next door had a sweet shop facing it and it was easier to get on the bus. But the head teachers didn't want that scenario, so if you really needed to turn right you had to get a pass from the deputy head. That would not happen nowadays, when even teachers outside the local "sports college" receive nothing but contempt and sometimes abuse from lazy, drug fuelled students.
I like to think along the lines of what Diny is saying, that is the system is DIFFERENT. The UK education system is over-burdened with red tape, and is in need of fulfilling an exercise in government statistical propaganda, otherwise the funding mysteriously dries up. The children are worked far too hard in my opinion. And for what? My 7 and 10 year olds get no spare time whatsoever to play and be KIDS. They get an extraordinary amount of homework to do, compared to what I can remember as a child. I know homework is essential, but it seems that in the UK, in the big cities, the parents are being asked to do the job of surrogate teacher, and I do not mean shirking parental responsibilites, but augmenting the teacher because they aren't able to do the job due to class size/red tape. Anybody who knows us will tell you that we don't shirk on our parental responsibilities, far from it.
I am not having a go at the educational establishment, I am understanding of the situation they find themselves in, because I experienced it myself when I was lecturing at a technical college. Not quite the same, but I understand. But I have not experienced the NZ system yet. If it places values on sportsmanship, honesty with yourself and self respect, and learning opportunity is there if you need it, then those students who want to will benefit from it. Opportunity is the word. I think too many children in UK now do not have that opportunity given to them. I haven't met any kiwi's who seem to be illiterate and they seem to get on in the world o.k.
Time will tell. Sorry because this post went from 2 lines to this, bit longer than I expected but I have just woken up after a night shift :)
I just know that there is NO WAY that would happen in the UK. The roads are so overcrowded, and there isn't much courtesy in evidence.
Back in the days when I went to a Catholic Grammar School in Liverpool (don't laugh you lot!), we used to have a prefect on duty outside the gate to stop us all turning right". This was considered beneficial to us from the boys school because the Catholic convent school next door had a sweet shop facing it and it was easier to get on the bus. But the head teachers didn't want that scenario, so if you really needed to turn right you had to get a pass from the deputy head. That would not happen nowadays, when even teachers outside the local "sports college" receive nothing but contempt and sometimes abuse from lazy, drug fuelled students.
I like to think along the lines of what Diny is saying, that is the system is DIFFERENT. The UK education system is over-burdened with red tape, and is in need of fulfilling an exercise in government statistical propaganda, otherwise the funding mysteriously dries up. The children are worked far too hard in my opinion. And for what? My 7 and 10 year olds get no spare time whatsoever to play and be KIDS. They get an extraordinary amount of homework to do, compared to what I can remember as a child. I know homework is essential, but it seems that in the UK, in the big cities, the parents are being asked to do the job of surrogate teacher, and I do not mean shirking parental responsibilites, but augmenting the teacher because they aren't able to do the job due to class size/red tape. Anybody who knows us will tell you that we don't shirk on our parental responsibilities, far from it.
I am not having a go at the educational establishment, I am understanding of the situation they find themselves in, because I experienced it myself when I was lecturing at a technical college. Not quite the same, but I understand. But I have not experienced the NZ system yet. If it places values on sportsmanship, honesty with yourself and self respect, and learning opportunity is there if you need it, then those students who want to will benefit from it. Opportunity is the word. I think too many children in UK now do not have that opportunity given to them. I haven't met any kiwi's who seem to be illiterate and they seem to get on in the world o.k.
Time will tell. Sorry because this post went from 2 lines to this, bit longer than I expected but I have just woken up after a night shift :)
kiwidebs
15th October 2005, 05:52 AM
I think like all countries schools vary. Some are stricter than others. Some schools will suit your idea of what your child's education should consist of more than others. Everybody differs in what they feel is most important in their child's education. I want my children to be happy and in an environment where learning is a pleasure not a chore so they enjoy learning from early on. Hopefully we'll find a primary school that will help us to acheive this.
we were so impressed by the way the kids themselves ran the crossing patrol.
I used to do school patrol (as we called it) on a Monday afternoon at Whenuapai Primary School in Auckland. We'd get out of class five-ten minutes early (the main reason I volunteered), gather our flourescent clothing, cones and signs and head off to the crossing. Did it teach me responsibility, hmmm, not so sure :laugh . We did have a teacher supervising most afternoons.
Debs
we were so impressed by the way the kids themselves ran the crossing patrol.
I used to do school patrol (as we called it) on a Monday afternoon at Whenuapai Primary School in Auckland. We'd get out of class five-ten minutes early (the main reason I volunteered), gather our flourescent clothing, cones and signs and head off to the crossing. Did it teach me responsibility, hmmm, not so sure :laugh . We did have a teacher supervising most afternoons.
Debs
Carol
15th October 2005, 06:13 AM
Every school IS different.
I've worked in a school in NZ who had the most ridiculous rules I have ever heard of - also the most power crazy d.p.
However - the one I am at now is much more relaxed - but oddly enough we still don't have a lot of behaviour problems.
I think it's down to "self respect for others, themselves, their learning and their school"
and I love teaching in an environment like that.
:raebanana
I've worked in a school in NZ who had the most ridiculous rules I have ever heard of - also the most power crazy d.p.
However - the one I am at now is much more relaxed - but oddly enough we still don't have a lot of behaviour problems.
I think it's down to "self respect for others, themselves, their learning and their school"
and I love teaching in an environment like that.
:raebanana
StevieD
15th October 2005, 07:51 AM
So I guess it's a case of suck it and see then.
Timbo
15th October 2005, 09:03 AM
I had to smile last year when in Whitianga. We wre out on a sight seeing boat trip, and passed a lovely sandy cove where there were young kids on the beach. This was during school term, so I asked our skipper what they were up to.
It turned out that they were having their weekly watercraft lesson. Dinghy sailing, kayaking etc. One of the kids was the skippers little boy of eight. His Dad had no qualms about letting him kayak accross the estuary to town on his own.
Sorry, a bit off topic there, but relevant.
It turned out that they were having their weekly watercraft lesson. Dinghy sailing, kayaking etc. One of the kids was the skippers little boy of eight. His Dad had no qualms about letting him kayak accross the estuary to town on his own.
Sorry, a bit off topic there, but relevant.
Diny
15th October 2005, 09:53 AM
Quote Steve:
So I guess it's a case of suck it and see then.
That's the best advice I think !!!! It not only applies to this education/discipline topic either. IMHO it's the ONLY way to go concerning EVERY part of moving to NZ. One persons opinion can be (and often is) a million miles away from your own.
My eldest son has just got home from his first Saturday morning session with the school cricket team. He's literally beaming with pride and excitement and he's talking ten to the dozen about what they did and who was there. We are very happy with this part of school life - the encouragement of 'team spirit' is exceptional. If only I could feel the same way about the actual academic side of things.
Diny
So I guess it's a case of suck it and see then.
That's the best advice I think !!!! It not only applies to this education/discipline topic either. IMHO it's the ONLY way to go concerning EVERY part of moving to NZ. One persons opinion can be (and often is) a million miles away from your own.
My eldest son has just got home from his first Saturday morning session with the school cricket team. He's literally beaming with pride and excitement and he's talking ten to the dozen about what they did and who was there. We are very happy with this part of school life - the encouragement of 'team spirit' is exceptional. If only I could feel the same way about the actual academic side of things.
Diny
Gran
15th October 2005, 03:18 PM
I wouldnt worry too much Diny. In my latest "Consumer" (I think its called "Which" in England, there is an article about after school tuition in which it says:-
"The Ministry of Education points to international studies that give NZ students a glowing report. The Programme for International Student Assesment (PISA) compares the reading, maths and science abilities of 15 year olds in 41 countries. The latest results placed NZ students in the second to top category"
"The Ministry of Education points to international studies that give NZ students a glowing report. The Programme for International Student Assesment (PISA) compares the reading, maths and science abilities of 15 year olds in 41 countries. The latest results placed NZ students in the second to top category"
Diny
15th October 2005, 04:02 PM
That makes comforting reading Gran.
Like Stevie says - I think I'm just going to have to 'suck it and see'. It's still very early days. I just can't help having a few alarm bells ringing in the back of my head. My personal observations are that both of our boys are falling behind slightly as far as their academic standards are concerned. I'm finding I have to do twice as much reading with them in the evenings to 'keep them up to speed' and the same applies to their spelling.
I know that this is a potentially 'hot potato' subject but I am simply reporting my own findings/opinions. As I have mentioned above, we are happy with the personal development which appears to be taking place - we all agree that it's a very important part of school life. However - I'm a firm believer that the personal development, sport and team building skills should be aswell as - not taking priority - over academic subjects.
I'm willing to take into consideration that the boys are still fairly new to the system, but the academic step backwards which they 'appear' to have experienced is a major concern to us.
May I reiterate that these are the opinions I have drawn after a relatively short time (3 months) and by NO means am I 'slagging off' the NZ education system.
I've always taken a very keen interest in our sons education after one of them had a particularly difficult start (due in my opinion to a very young teacher straight out of college not having the experience to recognise particular areas of concern) - but I know that all teachers have to have a 'first job'. I'm not a pushy parent like one of those who enter their kids into international spelling b's (poor little mites) - but I am finding it difficult when the kids come home and tell me that during the day they've played cricket, rugby, 4 square, watched a video and played connect 4. Nothing wrong with these things ...... but all that in one day doesn't leave a whole lot of time for the 3 Rs !!!!!!
Diny
Like Stevie says - I think I'm just going to have to 'suck it and see'. It's still very early days. I just can't help having a few alarm bells ringing in the back of my head. My personal observations are that both of our boys are falling behind slightly as far as their academic standards are concerned. I'm finding I have to do twice as much reading with them in the evenings to 'keep them up to speed' and the same applies to their spelling.
I know that this is a potentially 'hot potato' subject but I am simply reporting my own findings/opinions. As I have mentioned above, we are happy with the personal development which appears to be taking place - we all agree that it's a very important part of school life. However - I'm a firm believer that the personal development, sport and team building skills should be aswell as - not taking priority - over academic subjects.
I'm willing to take into consideration that the boys are still fairly new to the system, but the academic step backwards which they 'appear' to have experienced is a major concern to us.
May I reiterate that these are the opinions I have drawn after a relatively short time (3 months) and by NO means am I 'slagging off' the NZ education system.
I've always taken a very keen interest in our sons education after one of them had a particularly difficult start (due in my opinion to a very young teacher straight out of college not having the experience to recognise particular areas of concern) - but I know that all teachers have to have a 'first job'. I'm not a pushy parent like one of those who enter their kids into international spelling b's (poor little mites) - but I am finding it difficult when the kids come home and tell me that during the day they've played cricket, rugby, 4 square, watched a video and played connect 4. Nothing wrong with these things ...... but all that in one day doesn't leave a whole lot of time for the 3 Rs !!!!!!
Diny
Bailers
15th October 2005, 07:31 PM
Thanks Gran, as ever a mine of information. The links to the PISA website and NZ report are:
http://www.pisa.oecd.org/document/35/0,2340,en_32252351_32236225_33664291_1_1_1_1,00.ht ml
http://www.minedu.govt.nz/web/downloadable/dl10168_v1/pisa-03-sumrep-04.pdf
Makes for interesting reading.
Mark
http://www.pisa.oecd.org/document/35/0,2340,en_32252351_32236225_33664291_1_1_1_1,00.ht ml
http://www.minedu.govt.nz/web/downloadable/dl10168_v1/pisa-03-sumrep-04.pdf
Makes for interesting reading.
Mark
T-R3xx
16th October 2005, 12:25 PM
My 7 and 10 year olds get no spare time whatsoever to play and be KIDS. They get an extraordinary amount of homework to do, compared to what I can remember as a child. I know homework is essential, but it seems that in the UK, in the big cities, the parents are being asked to do the job of surrogate teacher, and I do not mean shirking parental responsibilites, but augmenting the teacher because they aren't able to do the job due to class size/red tape.
It would seem that this issue, like others in this forum, seems to cross borders.
We are in a good school district, and the staff does seem very professional, but Alex (8) gets more homework than I ever did, AND he is already starting multiplication in 3rd grade, which I did not do until the 4th grade. The pressure to keep moving seems great, along with categorizing a child as 'special needs' (or worse) if he/she does not fit the cookie-cutter mold of a typical child. ('Special Needs' means more funding from the State, of course). I am CERTAIN that I would have been drugged/categorized/pigeon-holed had I been in school nowadays. We are open for a change.
Thanks for the great feedback, as always.
It would seem that this issue, like others in this forum, seems to cross borders.
We are in a good school district, and the staff does seem very professional, but Alex (8) gets more homework than I ever did, AND he is already starting multiplication in 3rd grade, which I did not do until the 4th grade. The pressure to keep moving seems great, along with categorizing a child as 'special needs' (or worse) if he/she does not fit the cookie-cutter mold of a typical child. ('Special Needs' means more funding from the State, of course). I am CERTAIN that I would have been drugged/categorized/pigeon-holed had I been in school nowadays. We are open for a change.
Thanks for the great feedback, as always.
Stu
16th October 2005, 09:52 PM
Interesting that NZ should come 2nd on that edu list there, when according to "Jim" the objectionable chap on the "would you do it again" thread, half the kids in NZ are illiterate!
Interesting huh? :-)
Stu.
Interesting huh? :-)
Stu.
ruthyroo
17th October 2005, 08:02 AM
Hmm this is a tricky one. I think the 'suck it and see' attitude is probaby the best! Carol kind of mentioned it but I really think that discipline in schools (here and in the UK) comes down to two things - the socio-economic characteristics of the catchment area, and the attitude of the upper management in the school.
Mr Rr was expecting, coming from a really 'good' school in the UK, to find that discipline wouldn't necessarily be a big issue - that's the reputation that NZ has among most teachers. Wow how wrong he was... he landed in a school in a poor area which is 50% maori kids and it has been really difficult to adjust to that, to teaching kids who basically do not value education, and many of whom aspire to either joining a gang or getting out of school and onto benefits asap. He is sworn at daily, has been threatened by both parents and kids (usually with gang related threats), has to intervene in fights, had his bag / wallet stolen from a staff base etc etc. The problem is compounded by school management. Schools here depend on attracting their 'clients' and maintaining the numbers seems to be uppermost in their minds, rather than tackling the endemic indiscipline problem. Compared with the UK, discipline becomes an issue for the teacher to deal with - their are few or no guidance staff to deal with discipline of truancy issues (schools can't afford them here).
It has been like being in two schools at once - the well supported middle class pakeha kids move in one circle and the disruptive, poor maori kids move in another. Very very difficult to work with. But as I say this is just one experience - and very characteristic of the area where we currently live.
Mr Rr was expecting, coming from a really 'good' school in the UK, to find that discipline wouldn't necessarily be a big issue - that's the reputation that NZ has among most teachers. Wow how wrong he was... he landed in a school in a poor area which is 50% maori kids and it has been really difficult to adjust to that, to teaching kids who basically do not value education, and many of whom aspire to either joining a gang or getting out of school and onto benefits asap. He is sworn at daily, has been threatened by both parents and kids (usually with gang related threats), has to intervene in fights, had his bag / wallet stolen from a staff base etc etc. The problem is compounded by school management. Schools here depend on attracting their 'clients' and maintaining the numbers seems to be uppermost in their minds, rather than tackling the endemic indiscipline problem. Compared with the UK, discipline becomes an issue for the teacher to deal with - their are few or no guidance staff to deal with discipline of truancy issues (schools can't afford them here).
It has been like being in two schools at once - the well supported middle class pakeha kids move in one circle and the disruptive, poor maori kids move in another. Very very difficult to work with. But as I say this is just one experience - and very characteristic of the area where we currently live.
denisesykes
17th October 2005, 09:02 AM
I was interested to read your post Ruthyroo as we have 3 children aged 12, 9 and 5 and will be moving to the Waikato on 2nd November.In fact your post left me a bit worried about what will befall my kids when we arrive.
I have been looking at various schools in various areas (we are fortunate as Paul works from home we can be flexible on area) and the ratio Pakeha/Maori is something which is mentioned in the ERO reports .The trend appears to be that the lowest decile schools have the highest percentage of Maori children and the highest decile the lowest percent.
I have been trying not to dwell on the ratios and not let this info influence my decision as to an area but your post has made me think that maybe this is an important factor and as much as I do not want to appear racist (after all we are the immigrants!),the quality of my childrens education will always be paramount.
I would be interested to hear your views .
If you were moving now would you have made the same decions as to areas to live and schools?
Has anyone else had similar experiences to Ruthyroos particulary in the Waikato?Is this problem exclusive to the Waikato or common to many areas of New Zealand.?
I have been looking at various schools in various areas (we are fortunate as Paul works from home we can be flexible on area) and the ratio Pakeha/Maori is something which is mentioned in the ERO reports .The trend appears to be that the lowest decile schools have the highest percentage of Maori children and the highest decile the lowest percent.
I have been trying not to dwell on the ratios and not let this info influence my decision as to an area but your post has made me think that maybe this is an important factor and as much as I do not want to appear racist (after all we are the immigrants!),the quality of my childrens education will always be paramount.
I would be interested to hear your views .
If you were moving now would you have made the same decions as to areas to live and schools?
Has anyone else had similar experiences to Ruthyroos particulary in the Waikato?Is this problem exclusive to the Waikato or common to many areas of New Zealand.?
Saffer
17th October 2005, 10:06 AM
Diny
We've had a similiar experience with our daughter - we too found her slipping academically. We're from South Africa so cannot compare the education system to the UK. Our daughter is 13yrs old and started off in a 'good' state school at the age of 10yrs. We found that the volume of work was far less and homework seemed to consist of a worksheet given on Mondays which was to be completed by Friday. This would take her all of 20mins. We were also concerned by the vagueness of the school reports. (Sometimes, Usually, and Not Yet). We have since put her into a private school in Lower Hutt where she is thriving. Some schools in NZ do the A-Levels and some the IB so I guess that would be an option for someone from the UK especially. I do think that everyone has a different idea of a 'good education' and I'd say it also depends somewhat on the child's strengths. My daughter is very academic and not sporty. At the moment we're seriously considering the IB route and not the NCEA. Regarding discipline we find the schools to be very laidback on the whole. I think the subject choice is better here than in SA and that the children are expected to do more research in their homework and less rote learning. This is our experience only and I'd strongly recommend that parents decide for themselves what it is that they're looking for and not rely too much on ERO reports, etc.
Regards
Saffer
We've had a similiar experience with our daughter - we too found her slipping academically. We're from South Africa so cannot compare the education system to the UK. Our daughter is 13yrs old and started off in a 'good' state school at the age of 10yrs. We found that the volume of work was far less and homework seemed to consist of a worksheet given on Mondays which was to be completed by Friday. This would take her all of 20mins. We were also concerned by the vagueness of the school reports. (Sometimes, Usually, and Not Yet). We have since put her into a private school in Lower Hutt where she is thriving. Some schools in NZ do the A-Levels and some the IB so I guess that would be an option for someone from the UK especially. I do think that everyone has a different idea of a 'good education' and I'd say it also depends somewhat on the child's strengths. My daughter is very academic and not sporty. At the moment we're seriously considering the IB route and not the NCEA. Regarding discipline we find the schools to be very laidback on the whole. I think the subject choice is better here than in SA and that the children are expected to do more research in their homework and less rote learning. This is our experience only and I'd strongly recommend that parents decide for themselves what it is that they're looking for and not rely too much on ERO reports, etc.
Regards
Saffer
Diny
17th October 2005, 02:31 PM
My boys have just come home from school - after the usual greetings I asked if they'd had a good day. One of them replied 'yeah not bad' and the other replied 'brilliant !!! We've spent the whole day making a papier mache volcano'.
Diny
Diny
ruthyroo
17th October 2005, 02:58 PM
Hi Denise - didn't want to worry you, just reporting Mr Rr experience as a teacher which is probably worse than most! Most schools, especially those in mixed areas and with a mixed intake, have strategies for dealing with the different needs of the children - and the concerns of the parents. A popular one is to group the kids in various ways, such as establishing 'Accelerate' classes, whiich are meant to be for gifted or bright students, and by default end up being pakeha classes. At Mr Rr school if these 'fast stream' classes did not exist the middle class pakeha parents would quickly remove their kids from the school. It does allow the more motivated kids to progress, but maintains the division between the maori and pakeha students by default. Another strategy has been to make maori language an option in junior years - and then use that to organise the kids timetables - so all the maori kids who take maori end up in the same classes for other subjects as well... no doubt the schools in the Waikato do this too.
I don't think it's racist to acknowledge that schools with a high maori intake tend to have poorer results, more discipline problems, higher truancy, more students leaving at 15 with no qualifications etc etc - all the statistics are out there. Over 42% of maori in NZ have no formal qualifications for one reason or another. At the same time I do not 'blame' the maori kids per se (however unpleasant mini-gangsters they can be!) - the same situation exists in the UK in poor socio-economic areas as well, with poor role models, low aspirations, poverty, few positive role models etc (Mr Rr school has 50% maori kids and just one male maori teacher - and that's at secondary level). They are being presented with an education system that does not meet their needs, and they don't generally have the support from home to overcome the barriers that they encounter. It's a real issue for NZ.
Anyway, my advice would be to go with your instinct, look for a school with a strong discipline policy and give your kids a lot of support when they start. I would guess that they will be okay at primary level, but the 12 year old will be in junior classes at secondary, and they tend to be the most mixed. Definitely ask for local advice when you get there. And remember that a supportive and stable home life is the most important thing in your kids life! Hope that helps.
I don't think it's racist to acknowledge that schools with a high maori intake tend to have poorer results, more discipline problems, higher truancy, more students leaving at 15 with no qualifications etc etc - all the statistics are out there. Over 42% of maori in NZ have no formal qualifications for one reason or another. At the same time I do not 'blame' the maori kids per se (however unpleasant mini-gangsters they can be!) - the same situation exists in the UK in poor socio-economic areas as well, with poor role models, low aspirations, poverty, few positive role models etc (Mr Rr school has 50% maori kids and just one male maori teacher - and that's at secondary level). They are being presented with an education system that does not meet their needs, and they don't generally have the support from home to overcome the barriers that they encounter. It's a real issue for NZ.
Anyway, my advice would be to go with your instinct, look for a school with a strong discipline policy and give your kids a lot of support when they start. I would guess that they will be okay at primary level, but the 12 year old will be in junior classes at secondary, and they tend to be the most mixed. Definitely ask for local advice when you get there. And remember that a supportive and stable home life is the most important thing in your kids life! Hope that helps.
Hannah
20th October 2005, 08:15 AM
Diny, I read your post about the paper mache volcano and went to bed with a warm glow inside!!!
I can't think of hearing anything better when my kids walk in from school (In our house the usual response to "how was today at school?" generates comments such as "dunno", "work, work, work" or " we all lost PE 'coz Michael told the teacher to f*** off again"!)
Give me paper mache volcanoes anytime!!!!
I can't think of hearing anything better when my kids walk in from school (In our house the usual response to "how was today at school?" generates comments such as "dunno", "work, work, work" or " we all lost PE 'coz Michael told the teacher to f*** off again"!)
Give me paper mache volcanoes anytime!!!!
tottefan
13th March 2006, 05:44 AM
Having experienced the UK education system first-hand, I can honestly say that I don't rate it at all.
Kids got away with murder. According to a recent poll of top universities, well over 50% of our top graduates can't punctuate properly and don't know how to write a gramatically correct sentence. We're not talking school leavers - we're talking about our top grads!!!! I find that very worrying.
I don't know what school your kids went to Diny, but you must have been very lucky. In both primary schools I went to we never spent any time doing the 3 r's. Far too many kids leave primary school unable to read. There is also a major problem with discipline as most of the youngsters in my area insulted/physically assualted teachers and this is in a middle class area 10 years ago!!! It's worse now, no doubt.
I prefer the sound of the European/NZ schooling system. Kids are a few years behind academically in Europe/NZ because more emphasis is placed on social skills. They still finish ahead of kids in the UK according to just about every International test imaginable.
Tottefan.
Kids got away with murder. According to a recent poll of top universities, well over 50% of our top graduates can't punctuate properly and don't know how to write a gramatically correct sentence. We're not talking school leavers - we're talking about our top grads!!!! I find that very worrying.
I don't know what school your kids went to Diny, but you must have been very lucky. In both primary schools I went to we never spent any time doing the 3 r's. Far too many kids leave primary school unable to read. There is also a major problem with discipline as most of the youngsters in my area insulted/physically assualted teachers and this is in a middle class area 10 years ago!!! It's worse now, no doubt.
I prefer the sound of the European/NZ schooling system. Kids are a few years behind academically in Europe/NZ because more emphasis is placed on social skills. They still finish ahead of kids in the UK according to just about every International test imaginable.
Tottefan.
Diny
13th March 2006, 08:12 AM
My kids went to a rural school in the UK (as they do here in NZ). I had absolutely no concerns about their education there, here I worry alot.
AgainI have to stress that I can only comment from my own experiences.
You do not mention whether you have any children or any first hand experience of the NZ education system. Before we came out here we did endless research into schools and the NZ education system, going by all the facts and figures, reports and statisitics we too were confident that our children would get an equal, if not better, education here in NZ.
However, we are disappointed with reality, our boys have fallen behind, their general attitudes have gone very 'sloppy' and 'we feel' that their NZ education isn't a patch on what they were getting 'back home'.
Maybe when your children are here and 'living the system' you may have a different attitude.
Diny
AgainI have to stress that I can only comment from my own experiences.
You do not mention whether you have any children or any first hand experience of the NZ education system. Before we came out here we did endless research into schools and the NZ education system, going by all the facts and figures, reports and statisitics we too were confident that our children would get an equal, if not better, education here in NZ.
However, we are disappointed with reality, our boys have fallen behind, their general attitudes have gone very 'sloppy' and 'we feel' that their NZ education isn't a patch on what they were getting 'back home'.
Maybe when your children are here and 'living the system' you may have a different attitude.
Diny
Diny
13th March 2006, 08:16 AM
Also - just as an after thought. Can you honestly say that you were never given any tuition in reading, writing, maths (3 R's) while at school? Where did you learn to read and write.
I can understand what you're saying, all that I'm saying is statistics and reality don't match - IMHO.
I can understand what you're saying, all that I'm saying is statistics and reality don't match - IMHO.
tottefan
13th March 2006, 08:23 AM
Well, I suppose it depends on which school you're talking about. There's bad and good in every country.
Personally, I've had bad experiences of the UK education system. Based on my own experiences, I don't think that the UK system is any better than anywhere else. In fact, from what I've seen at uni so far, the foreign students seem more motivated, intelligent and better at writing good, coherent English, even though it is often only their 2nd language (or 3rd, 4th).
I suppose rural schools in the UK must be much nicer. There's probably much less problems with discipline, students tend to be more motivated etc.
I was just adding my experiences of the UK education system as I thought some people might be interested. I'm only 23 so my experiences are relatively recent. I can't comment on NZ, apart from what I've read, so I'm in no position to compare. All I was saying was that based on my own experiences it can't be any worse.
Tottefan.
Personally, I've had bad experiences of the UK education system. Based on my own experiences, I don't think that the UK system is any better than anywhere else. In fact, from what I've seen at uni so far, the foreign students seem more motivated, intelligent and better at writing good, coherent English, even though it is often only their 2nd language (or 3rd, 4th).
I suppose rural schools in the UK must be much nicer. There's probably much less problems with discipline, students tend to be more motivated etc.
I was just adding my experiences of the UK education system as I thought some people might be interested. I'm only 23 so my experiences are relatively recent. I can't comment on NZ, apart from what I've read, so I'm in no position to compare. All I was saying was that based on my own experiences it can't be any worse.
Tottefan.
Diny
13th March 2006, 12:54 PM
Tottefan - have you read Emigrate With Caution by Nicola Butler? A very good read indeed, unbiased from both sides of the fence.
Her comments regarding education: (quote) 'I do feel that the education system in New Zealand is not as high a standard as that of the UK'.
You are right of course, different schools, different areas, different countries - no two will be the same. NZ schools have a huge amount of positives going for them, but when you put all the social studies, team building and 'adventure' to one side, we have found that reality is a long way off statistics, government reports and the good old fashioned rose tinted optimism which we arrived with.
Diny
Her comments regarding education: (quote) 'I do feel that the education system in New Zealand is not as high a standard as that of the UK'.
You are right of course, different schools, different areas, different countries - no two will be the same. NZ schools have a huge amount of positives going for them, but when you put all the social studies, team building and 'adventure' to one side, we have found that reality is a long way off statistics, government reports and the good old fashioned rose tinted optimism which we arrived with.
Diny
Carol
13th March 2006, 06:03 PM
A word of caution....
Schools vary hugely.
Even in a small area.
I would no sooner send my daughter to some local schools than travel to Mars.
And we actually moved into the zone of the College we wanted to get our boys into because the local one was disgraceful.
It was interesting - speaking to teachers in a UK school I visited last year - they were queueing up to ask about NZ because they are so disillusioned with the "UK way"
What their general comments seemed to say were -
"Not enough vision - the amount of knowledge in the world is so vast now - they need to learn HOW to learn and HOW to find out rather than being force fed facts and figures.
I reckon it's happening here.
In fact I know it is.
I've got two groups in my class next week arranging trips out to:
Laser Force - to look at the technology behind the equipment. Explore why the place is so popular and look at how much money can be made from a venture such as this.
(Oh yes - and have a game for fun.....guess that's OK!)
Parliament, TePapa and the Earthquake Commission to investigate the technology behind how earthquakes are measured.
Both groups have arranged everything themselves - from bookings on the phone to organising permission and transport.
However - this is just the tip of the iceberg.....when they get back with all their information what are they going to do with it?
That's what I am really interested in.
I am certainly not hoping for a magnificently decorated poster telling me what they did.
I am looking for their innovative ways of relaying the information they have found out.
Be it in movie form using the Apples or in Powerpoint format using the PCs.
Or a talk - or a podcast - or..........the possibilities are endless.
I honestly never contemplated teaching like this in the UK.
Just LOVE it here!:nice1
Schools vary hugely.
Even in a small area.
I would no sooner send my daughter to some local schools than travel to Mars.
And we actually moved into the zone of the College we wanted to get our boys into because the local one was disgraceful.
It was interesting - speaking to teachers in a UK school I visited last year - they were queueing up to ask about NZ because they are so disillusioned with the "UK way"
What their general comments seemed to say were -
"Not enough vision - the amount of knowledge in the world is so vast now - they need to learn HOW to learn and HOW to find out rather than being force fed facts and figures.
I reckon it's happening here.
In fact I know it is.
I've got two groups in my class next week arranging trips out to:
Laser Force - to look at the technology behind the equipment. Explore why the place is so popular and look at how much money can be made from a venture such as this.
(Oh yes - and have a game for fun.....guess that's OK!)
Parliament, TePapa and the Earthquake Commission to investigate the technology behind how earthquakes are measured.
Both groups have arranged everything themselves - from bookings on the phone to organising permission and transport.
However - this is just the tip of the iceberg.....when they get back with all their information what are they going to do with it?
That's what I am really interested in.
I am certainly not hoping for a magnificently decorated poster telling me what they did.
I am looking for their innovative ways of relaying the information they have found out.
Be it in movie form using the Apples or in Powerpoint format using the PCs.
Or a talk - or a podcast - or..........the possibilities are endless.
I honestly never contemplated teaching like this in the UK.
Just LOVE it here!:nice1
StevieD
13th March 2006, 07:26 PM
Horses for courses I think folks - there are good and bad everywhere. I think it the difference in the systems that is so noticeable to people who emigrate. Do tend to think there is too much remembrance of useless facts and not enough about the real things that matter in life.
Sound exciting those projects though Carol - keep us posted on the progress of their progress.
Sound exciting those projects though Carol - keep us posted on the progress of their progress.
ellen
23rd March 2006, 11:07 AM
I'm not sure if I've posted since arriving or not....I've been preoccupied with settling in...more on that on another thread, though.
My son, who turned 15 last July, was put into year 11, because he "needed to be with his age mates." Soon, they moved him to year 12 chemistry, history, and maths. Two days later, they moved him to year 13 maths. (He is still in year 11 English, French, Food Technology, and Physical Education.) His understanding and ours is that the teaching of new material ends sometime during the third term and that fourth term is all review and testing. His year 11 French teaching assistant says that my son knows far more than anyone in the class. He sometimes feels he is scored down because he answers something that the others haven't learned yet.
Meanwhile, he got punched around the other day...because of a soccer play? because they have labeled him as brainy? No response from the school about it, though teachers were aware.
He wants to go back to the U.S. (we'd talked about sending him back for his senior year; he has several offers from family friends for places to stay) but now he worries that he will be too far behind if he doesn't return sooner.
I told him that we wouldn't even consider it if he didn't try heart and soul and I truly think he is doing that, making friends, playing tennis and soccer, getting a job making pizza.
But he will be totally done with the secondary maths offerings by mid-September...
Comments and advice most welcome.
Ellen
My son, who turned 15 last July, was put into year 11, because he "needed to be with his age mates." Soon, they moved him to year 12 chemistry, history, and maths. Two days later, they moved him to year 13 maths. (He is still in year 11 English, French, Food Technology, and Physical Education.) His understanding and ours is that the teaching of new material ends sometime during the third term and that fourth term is all review and testing. His year 11 French teaching assistant says that my son knows far more than anyone in the class. He sometimes feels he is scored down because he answers something that the others haven't learned yet.
Meanwhile, he got punched around the other day...because of a soccer play? because they have labeled him as brainy? No response from the school about it, though teachers were aware.
He wants to go back to the U.S. (we'd talked about sending him back for his senior year; he has several offers from family friends for places to stay) but now he worries that he will be too far behind if he doesn't return sooner.
I told him that we wouldn't even consider it if he didn't try heart and soul and I truly think he is doing that, making friends, playing tennis and soccer, getting a job making pizza.
But he will be totally done with the secondary maths offerings by mid-September...
Comments and advice most welcome.
Ellen
Diny
23rd March 2006, 12:50 PM
Ellen - I don't really have any advice but I can understand where you are 'coming from'. I too am floundering around not knowing what to do for the best (please refer to my previous postings so I don't have to go over the entire sorry story all over again).
I've been advised to take a deep breath and hope for the best. I can't help feeling that my kids are getting closer to the point of no return by the day.
Please feel free to PM me, our 'kids' are different ages but it seems as though our concerns are the same.
Diny
I've been advised to take a deep breath and hope for the best. I can't help feeling that my kids are getting closer to the point of no return by the day.
Please feel free to PM me, our 'kids' are different ages but it seems as though our concerns are the same.
Diny
Al_S
23rd March 2006, 12:51 PM
Meanwhile, he got punched around the other day...
Very sorry to hear about your son getting punched Ellen. It is just awful.
Do you think the Kiwi standard of education is significantly lower than say North America? This is a real issue for all those with kids. You cannot necessarily make all the bullies disappear (though I wish they had the magic trick to do just that) but it is really a big issue if the education system down there is structurally problematic.
Very sorry to hear about your son getting punched Ellen. It is just awful.
Do you think the Kiwi standard of education is significantly lower than say North America? This is a real issue for all those with kids. You cannot necessarily make all the bullies disappear (though I wish they had the magic trick to do just that) but it is really a big issue if the education system down there is structurally problematic.
ellen
23rd March 2006, 02:33 PM
Well, while I think it is poor that he got punched, he'll recover and it is giving him a chance to evaluate how to deal with bullies and where his mother's nonviolent philosophy sits with him in life. Not all bad. And he's clear about his boundaries....he doesn't want me running interference for him. There are so many ways that this experience is stretching him and teaching him things about the world and himself, and I didn't want him to reach adulthood without some of the stretching experiences.
He reports that he has been invited to go with his year 12 class on a two and a half week trip to Egypt, Turkey, and Greece....as if that was in our budget! But I think he was honored that the teacher thinks he is mature enough to handle it!
The other upside of this is that he is getting a view of himself and what he wants in an education, not just what his overeducated parents are interested in. He's been frustrated more than once when the reply to one of his questions is "That won't be on the test, mate. Don't worry about it." Golly, the boy is developing his own standards after sliding by for years....
Ellen
He reports that he has been invited to go with his year 12 class on a two and a half week trip to Egypt, Turkey, and Greece....as if that was in our budget! But I think he was honored that the teacher thinks he is mature enough to handle it!
The other upside of this is that he is getting a view of himself and what he wants in an education, not just what his overeducated parents are interested in. He's been frustrated more than once when the reply to one of his questions is "That won't be on the test, mate. Don't worry about it." Golly, the boy is developing his own standards after sliding by for years....
Ellen
Hackswell
6th April 2008, 02:21 PM
=BUMP=
This thread is 2 years old now. Any updates or comments on NZ education? :)
I've got a son who is 5, a daughter who is 3, and another daughter who is 1. Education is a big part of the decision to move or not. I work in IT, so I'd most likely be going to Chch, Wellington, or (hopefully not) Auckland. (I just don't like big cities...)
My 5 year old son has high functioning Autism. Any other parents out there with special needs kids in the public school system? How responsive/effective is it?
This thread is 2 years old now. Any updates or comments on NZ education? :)
I've got a son who is 5, a daughter who is 3, and another daughter who is 1. Education is a big part of the decision to move or not. I work in IT, so I'd most likely be going to Chch, Wellington, or (hopefully not) Auckland. (I just don't like big cities...)
My 5 year old son has high functioning Autism. Any other parents out there with special needs kids in the public school system? How responsive/effective is it?
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