[Rob K]

We have now been here in NZ for almost a year, and contemplating returning to Canada. But, before we make that a final decision, we're trying to figure out if there's a part of NZ we've missed that we should give a chance.

The problem is this:

Our previous life in Canada was good in many respects, but the prospect of coming to NZ seemed worth going for it - even though for us it meant making a clean break: sell house, quit job, etc.

We have lived and I have been teaching in Christchurch and Palmerston North, and in addition we've travelled a lot and have seen a lot of the country. Including every city except Gisborne, Hamilton, and Invercargill.

NZ is, in our opinion, a very beautiful country. Especially the abundance of beautiful beaches, the nice forests (where farming hasn't wiped them out completely), friendly people, and peace and quiet.

Our problem, after a year of wondering about it, seems to stem from the fact that in leaving our hometown in Canada - which we left for many other negative reasons - we also gave up a certain kind of day-to-day lifestyle that we are now mourning greatly.

Where we lived, we lived in a house that was within walking distance to about 99% of the places we frequented on a day-to-day basis: stores, parks, the library, event sites, hiking trails, etc. We didn't live anywhere near the ocean (about 700 km away), but we were a 15-minute walk from a beautiful lake about the size of Lake Te Anau.

Actually, 99% would be a bit misleading because the 1 missing piece was that the polytech where I taught was 40 km away, with no public transit going that way. The fact that I tried and mostly failed to find a means of livelihood in the town where we lived was a contributing factor to our readiness to try NZ, because we thought that clean, green, progressive NZ (as the image seems to Canadians) would certainly offer us the pedestrian-friendly opportunities we were looking for.

Another problem where we were in Canada was that we are very much into growing our own food, which required more square footage of land than our city lot could offer us. Our garden was getting maxed out.

I am now looking at switching to being self-employed, which will allow us to settle in any town without having to first find a job.

It was following a job that led us first to Christchurch, then to Palmerston North.

We liked Christchurch in many ways, but found it to be a very sprawling city. We started out with the intention to go car-free, as we did in our last year in Canada. People we met seemed very surprised to learn we had no car. The bus system in Chch is very good, and I was able to cycle to work. But, the people were astute in the end, as we found that things we needed for day-to-day life were scattered all over the place, which made bus fees for 6 of us expensive, and so we eventually gave in and bought a car.

But we wonder if we wrote off Chch as a pedestrian-friendly place too soon. We started out renting in St. Albans, but then we were out in Southshore where the beach was awesome but everything else was so far away. Is there somewhere in Chch where you can live car-free on a day-to-day basis?

Palmerston North, where we are now, has some nice areas downtown and around, but really it's not a very appealing city to be if you don't want to depend on a car. The streets are wide and straight, many areas are treeless, concrete jungles, and the few nice parks are far from the city core.

We've visited Wellington once and really liked the city center - it seems like a very, very vibrant place. But we don't know much about life in Welly on a day-to-day basis, though we've heard good things.

Auckland is a place we've only driven through, so we know very little about it. We've not heard much about it as a pedestrian-friendly city, though.

We had considered moving to the country somewhere, but from what we've seen so far it looks like the country life in NZ is a car-life, as there just don't seem to be the kind of villages or small rural towns that we were hoping for.

So, my question is:

Is there anywhere in NZ where a family can live where life is good, where this life is accessible without the day-to-day dependence on a car, where there's shops instead of malls, ma-&-pa stores instead of franchises, where streets are narrow with wide footpaths, and where it's possible to find a decent house (buy or rent ok) with a good-sized patch of earth to grow a decent food garden?

Cheers,

Rob

[Diny]

Phew ... this is a tricky one to answer. You say you've visted most of the cities and towns in NZ and still haven't found that 'feel' you're looking for. I would agree that living in NZ does require a car - it's the nature of the beast I'm afraid. The cities have the good public transport but if you want a more 'rural' lifestyle you're going to find that public transport passes through town about one a week !!

It's funny how individuals opinions can change. We like Palmerston North because we find it has that 'small town' feel even though it has city status. I am a country girl too - born and raised on a farm in Staffordshire UK so urban living is not for me. I can't say I've even noticed a concrete jungle in PN - let alone let it bother me. Do you mean those couple of tall office blocks just off the square? Wide streets are almost a 'trademark' of NZ.

Saying all that, we live 12km out of PN in Ashhurst. Everything here is within walking distance but I wouldn't have thought there were too many employment opportunities out here (unless you're into wood chopping and milking cows).

Have you visited Feilding? That's very much a 'country town' - a real mecca for retired cockies (farmers). There's also a large school out there (Feilding Ag) so maybe a chance of some employment. The town itself is really nice with just about everything you need within easy walking distance. It's known as 'Friendly Feilding' and as you enter the welcome sign reads 'New Zealands most Beautiful town'. I don't know whether I go that far but it is nice.

At the end of the day, its only you guys who can make this decision for yourselves. It seems that the negatives you point out will be present wherever you go in NZ, and sadly unless you work at home and live within spitting distance of a grocery shop and medical centre etc, you're going to need a car. Either that or become 100% self sufficient.

I sincerely hope that you find what you're looking for and be happy where ever you decide to settle on the globe.

Diny

P.S Have you discovered the esplanade yet - next to the Girls High? That's literally a hop skip and a jump from the square. Also the park on Main Street, I think it's called the Albert Memorial Park but can't be sure.

[boltonlass]

Hamilton and surrounding toens like cambridge and matamata or morrinsvile are very quaint little towns. Again jobs are few and far between but its only 10mins drive to hamilton. Cambridge is a lovely little place. There are many places in the Waikato that are like that.
Good Luck, Just hope your not searching for somthing that in yours eyes might not be here!
Sarah

[kiwidebs]

I'd just say, if you're looking for somewhere pedestrian friendly I wouldn't look at Auckland. If you think Chch is a sprawling city, Auckland is much more so.
As far as cities go, I've never lived in Wellington but I would've thought it would be worth a go. I'm sure some of the Wellybods will pass on their wisdom but it seems to be a nice compact city with good public transport links.

I hope you find what you're looking for, either in NZ or back in Canada. At least you can say you've given it a good go in NZ and never wonder 'what if'.

Debs

[clg]

You can easily get by without a car in Welly, not at all difficult. Most of the walking is around streets though so there are cars around. I think the hardest part you are after would be a patch to grow food. Right around the city is expensive, and much more so for a flat section. If you take the garden part out I think Welly would stack up well with what you are looking for. We have a great farmers market and an organic food store.

It is easy to live out of town a little bit and take a train or bus in, suburbs have basic shops with much more available if you run into the CBD. You can also feel like you live in a more rural area but the city is near by. Areas within 15 minutes or less of the CBD offer good tramping, etc. I am in Khandallah and I go on morning walks through a reserve up a large hill with stunning views a the top. I can walk to a New World, several restaurants, a pub and a few other shops. CBD is 15 minutes on a train.

Again the garden requirement is tough. If you really want to grow things you might look at Kapiti or Upper Hutt, it is a longish train ride in (close to an hour) but you can get a larger, flat section there.

Chris

[wanderingoregonian]

I'm currently living just outside cambridge, Massachusetts and for our first years in Boston we were carfree - and loved it. Now I'm carfree on the weekends, but use my anchient Subaru to commute to work and for big shops/delivery pacakges, and when its too icy, cold or foggy to bike. So I completely hear where you're coming from on the pedestrian side of things, and it was something I was very focused on during my scouting mission this past July.

When I visited NZ, I was impressed with parts of Wellington - Karori, Kelburn for example. I walked everywhere, and I saw a lot of locals walking as well. I only saw as much as I could walk (and a little bus) in one day, so there are probably other areas too. One thing that struck me was the ped access shortcut trails between the switchbacking roads, letting you hightail it up/down stairs (http://tinyurl.com/yqjov3) rather than walk the long way that cars have to go. Probably not the cheapest areas for rent, but you could probably go carless or only have 1 car which saves money.

Our plan is to try to find an area in NZ where we can walk, bike, or bus to key life stops (post office, grocery, laundry if not in the house, park, and at least one of our jobs etc.) but have a station wagon to haul things, to use for camping and weekend adventures, and to carry bikes around in.

Also - is there anything like zipcar.com or flexcar.com in NZ? In the states, a few bigger cities have these car co-ops were you can hire a car by the hour or day. Cars are parked in local neighborhoods and you reserve one online, go to it at your designated time, and open it with a special fob - away you go. We used the zipcar one for awhile and it was the perfect option for us at a time where we needed wheels occasionally but couldn't handle the money or drama of maintaining a vehicle.

[Diny]

Also - is there anything like zipcar.com or flexcar.com in NZ? In the states, a few bigger cities have these car co-ops were you can hire a car by the hour or day. Cars are parked in local neighborhoods and you reserve one online, go to it at your designated time, and open it with a special fob - away you go. We used the zipcar one for awhile and it was the perfect option for us at a time where we needed wheels occasionally but couldn't handle the money or drama of maintaining a vehicle.


What a splendid idea !!!!

Diny

[veronica]

Hiya Rob K long time since you've been on. I would agree that perhaps you did write off Christchurch a bit to quickly on the pedestrian front, but I maybe think that what you are looking for is a bit unrealistic in some ways. When you have the convenience of being able to walk or cycle to places with good facilities then logistically you have to be near the centre of towns. land is then at a premium so not a lot for your money when it comes to veggie growing. it seems to me that you are looking for a small lifestyle block in the centre of town. Rather than look at the bigger places, what about one of the many country towns, or perhaps an outlying suburb (a town in its own right) of Christchurch like Rangiora or Darfield.

[Moorf]

Is there anywhere in NZ where a family can live where life is good, where this life is accessible without the day-to-day dependence on a car, where there's shops instead of malls, ma-&-pa stores instead of franchises, where streets are narrow with wide footpaths, and where it's possible to find a decent house (buy or rent ok) with a good-sized patch of earth to grow a decent food garden?




Just back from West Coast and it was stunning, gob-smackingly stunning (reminded me a little of the wild north coast of Barbados) - have you looked that side? Cheap property too..... although if you need facilities I guess you'd have to live in Greymouth (which looked "functional" but not the prettiest place in the NZ).

Otherwise, near Chch, I'd agree with Veronica - try Oxford (luvverly), Darfield (love it, it's now my local village), Halswell (not quite as far out and near Lincoln uni), Rangiora (has everything)...

[nessie]

Hi Rob

We're in Kaiapoi which is only 15 minutes away from Chch centre, it has all the facilities you would expect in a small town e.g. supermarkets, library , pool and is only 5k from the beaches. You could easily manage on foot/bike here. We have a quarter acre section which is enough for our veggie needs (we do buy some - through choice, not lack of room!).

We love it here! ;)

[Hannah]

New Plymouth seems to have everything we need and i walk most places without a problem. population about 60,000 and a thriving town centre. schools, college, medical centres, swimming pool, beach etc all a walk away if you like walking. Mountain is 15 min drive away. Public transport not good but there are buses to Auckland, Palmy etc.
What strikes me though is that i'm the only person walking round here, and the roads are not really set up for pedestrians. Everything seems to be in walking distance and yet still so many drive and there are few safe places to cross. Is that the case in other NZ cities!!!!? Sadly i don't feel as safe allowing my children to go out alone and cross roads here as i did in UK. I think roads are the biggest risk to kids, and there are often posers driving around corners fast, doing burn ups on side roads etc. and lots of speeding well above speed limit. I often can't find a safe place to cross where as in UK there were always plenty of safe crossing points around. the city doesn't seem geared up for walkers, it's all about keeping traffic flowing.

[Rob K]

Hi all,

Thanks for all of the great replies to my query. It's interesting to read people's descriptions about the various locations. Looks like, above all, the car reigns supreme in NZ, eh?

Cheers,

Rob

[jonSE]

Strange that we all seem to have this preconception that NZ is Green /Eco Friendly. yet when you get here you discover that it is anything but. I guess having not lived here outside Auckland that unless you live in the big cities - Akl,Welli or Chch it isn't going to be pedestrian friendly' cos there isn't a sufficiently large population to make public transport provision anywhere near justifiable. Even in AKL i get off the ferry from Waiheke at around 08:00 each morning and get on a bus that leaves from the major transport interchange in AKL going uptown and then to other major employment centres - frequntly I am the only passenger or on average one of four - the same four- it's a very large bus for four people.

NZ has, like the US, a love affair with the car which will be hard to break. It doesn't have the benefit that older more populous countries have that public transport infrastructure was established for big populations commuting to work before the car was commonplace. think London or Paris or Moscow.

Jon on GE free Waiheke! probably one of th greener places in NZ

[Carol]

You cannot survive without a car if you want to make the most of what New Zealand as a whole has to offer.

Sorry - but that's the way it is.

So....
If you HAVE to have a car the word is your oyster as to where you live.


Personally I love Wellington. It has a special international feel to it that I have never experienced anywhere else.
The suburbs are lovely if that's what you are into. ( I am!)
Public transport is very good.

Ultimately - you HAVE to go where the work is.
If you are lucky enough to be able to work anywhere - good on ya. Take your pick.
For us - it was "mainframe" land for my DBA hubby.
So we had a choice of Welly or Welly.

So glad though - if it had been Auckland I would have been back to the UK as quick as a flash!

[Howie]

Rob,
Your situation has certainly interested me. My husband and I are Canadians living in the US and really miss Canada, but are looking to live in NZ for a while. We are very much into doing what we can for the environment and are appalled how people here don't even think about the impact of driving SUV's or living an hour from where they work or driving their kids everywhere. We are certainly seen as an oddity because we only have one car and I am the only person in my very large office complex who bikes to work. We were certainly hoping that people at least considered the impacts of their transportation decision in NZ. During our brief visit to NZ I was surprised to find that the land use patterns are so similar to New Jersey, with big box stores that you have to drive to. I did however see, more neighbourhood centres scattered throughout the city and overall the housing density seems to be much lower than in New Jersey.
We lived in Calgary before moving to NJ. In Calgary we walked/biked to work, but still had to drive for most of our shopping and recreation. We felt that was an OK compromise. Are there no car share programs in NZ? Where in Canada did you live? I think perhaps you are lucky to have to choose between living into two wonderful countries.

[Rob K]

Hi Susan,

You're right, that we're lucky to be able to choose between 2 great countries like Canada & NZ. The flip side is that having this choice - and having to choose 1 over the other, is a heavy burden...

We lived in Nelson, BC: a town of ~ 10 000 in the mountains about 600 km from either Vancouver or Calgary. We were fortunate to live within a 5 minute walk of virtually all amenities - because most amenities were on or just off of the main street. As I mentioned before, though, the one big minus was that my work was a 40 km drive away with no public transit.

One of the last community-focused things I was helping with before moving was trying to convince the local government bodies to establish public transit between Nelson and Castlegar, the town where I taught. Last I heard it was still mentioned as a possibility but apparently no closer to becoming a reality.

Other recent problems with Nelson were that, within a 2-year recent span, the school across the road from us was closed, and the hospital was downgraded with many functions transferred 80 km or more down the road. Both closures were extremely political: I'd need a different listserve, a lot more time, and perhaps a bottle of vodka or something to explain what happened there...

The hospital downgrading (a closure, in many senses) was something that we admittedly paid little attention to - until our son had a ruptured appendix. Instead of having a routine procedure just up the hill from our house, he was instead sent from there by ambulance 80 km down the road, and then medivacced by airplane to Vancouver. At that point, we had already decided to leave Nelson and move to NZ, and this did little to give us any second thoughts.

I guess that the balancing act, for us, is trying to find a place where you can earn a livelihood, live in peace and quiet, be inspired by your surroundings, and yet not be dependent on a car on a day-to-day basis. This is a challenging thing, to find somewhere like that.

Someone mentioned in a previous posting that ""You cannot survive without a car if you want to make the most of what New Zealand as a whole has to offer."

However, I would say that the inverse is true: that if you can't survive without a car (or think you can't, anyways), then perhaps it's not worth trying to make the most of what your country has to offer. Canada, or NZ, or wherever.

In the final analysis, taking such things as health, safety, and economics into account, we feel that any place that drives you to driving just isn't worth the bother as a long-term home.

We lived our last year in Nelson, Canada, without a car. It was possible mainly because I was on a parental leave for much of it, and so didn't need to do the work commute. When I went back to work, I continued to carpool as I did before - except where I had previously shared in the driving, I was now just a paying passenger, which I felt bad about. This perhaps was the single biggest factor in me wanting to move to NZ earlier instead of later.

Life in our town, otherwise, was very good without a car. When we went on trips out of town - camping, hiking, etc - we would rent a minivan. Overall, we were saving a lot of money by renting only when we needed a car. And, it was nice to always have a car in impeccable condition.

There is a car co-op in Nelson, but for us it was not viable because we needed a vehicle with 6 seats, and they had only gotten up to 2 vehicles, both of which were too small for us. But even renting conventionally worked out well for us.

I haven't heard of any car co-ops in NZ, but I think that they could work in AKL, Welly, Chch, and even in smaller cities like Nelson and PN. However, the costs of owning, insuring, and maintaining a car are quite low here compared to Canada. It's hard to understand why, considering no cars and almost no petrol are made here. It doesn't seem like the powers here in NZ want anything but cars all over the show...

I'd add, too, an observation that both here in NZ and in Canada (can't speak directly for elsewhere), there seems to be a very noticeable decrease in the general fitness and health of people. I'm not a doctor, but I don't think you need to be to see that more and more people are looking quite heavier than ever, especially kids. I doubt that this has little to do with the love affair with cars. I'd bet that - inevitable isolated exceptions aside - the day-to-day dependence on cars is right at the root of this problem.

That's one reason why we're so determined to find a place where we can live day-to-day as pedestrians.

By the way, we lived in Calgary briefly about 11 years ago. It's a nice city in many ways: clean air and water, mountains close by, chinooks (like NZ nor'westers). But a big drawback was that it was so sprawled out, and new subdivisions especially were looking too much like each other. You wouldn't really know when you'd left one and entered the next until you started seeing a new mall, and all the franchises started repeating themselves.

With all the cars in Calgary, I wonder if the air is still as clean as I remember it 11 years ago...

It is becoming overwhelmingly clear to us just how deep and widespread the car has become intertwined with the world we live in. It seems to be the root cause of the demise of so many small towns here and in Canada. To us, this fact is very sad. Hopefully there are some exceptions to the rule out there...

Cheers,

Rob

[Going2NZ]

Just thought I'd toss my two-cents in. I've been in Wellington for about 3 months both in the CBD and out in Plimmerton. Though a car would be a convenience in many ways, I haven't really needed one. The public transport (bus and trains) is clean, frequent and very handy. Its 20 minutes by train into Wellington. I've picked up schedules for the areas that I'm interested in renting a house and see no lack of options for getting into the city since my job is downtown.

Now, I have to confess, I've gone places with a friend of mine that I probably wouldn't have attempted by transport - no point in going to lunch someplace if it takes you an hour to get there. So, at some point I will probably buy a car for the flexibility. But I don't see any reason to use a car for everyday commuting or running errends.

I think Rob K hit on it when he wrote "if you can't survive without a car (or think you can't, anyways), then perhaps it's not worth trying to make the most of what your country has to offer." It probably depends on what choices you are willing to make to set yourself in a position to do without. One of my house criterias is near a train or bus station. That will limit where I can live. As for traveling around NZ, I suspect we'll hire a camper van if our hypothetical won't work. I don't see that as an issue.

It all comes down to personal choices and priorities. None right or wrong just what works for you.

Susan

[ruthyroo]

Just a late couple of cents worth (as this is one of my favourite NZ hobby horses!). Just becuase somewhere looks 'green' doesn't mean that it is any more environmentally sustainable. NZ has very successfully marketed itself as '100% Pure' - but the reality is that NZ is only less polluted / developed becuase of the low population numbers / hectare. In terms of energy conservation, alternative energy sources, public transport, sustainable waste management etc NZ is no further ahead than anywhere else - but its low population, 'green' landscape (though let's not look too closely at what that landscape is actually composed of!) and clever marketing have sold it as a green destination. I recently read a report at work about the economic value of the 'green NZ' image to the tourist and other service industries here and it basically says 'we're no more 'green' than any other country, and we know it, but wow it's bringing in heaps of dollars / tourists / immigrants - lets keep up the appearance as long as possible and try not to stuff it up too much!'

On the subject of pedestrian friendly NZ, it's not surprising that it doesn't exist too much. Many NZ towns were laid out and developed in an era where town planning favoured big sections and single houses on each one. Many immigrants were leaving the cramped, crowded and insanitary conditions of towns in the UK and wanted a house of their own, with a garden /plot to grow veggies, and space for the kids to play. Having come from a 1 bed tenement flat in Edinburgh to NZ, I can appreciate this! In fact the Public Health Act at the time laid down minimum distances that had to exist between dwellings, to avoid crowding and the spread of disease. This led to the development of sprawling suburbs in so many places - and combined with a lack of money to spend on public transport (and an unwillingness to use it or see the need for it - cars and petrol are pretty cheap here) the car is king. Big boxes / out of town developments being so popular don't help either...

[Rob K]

From the replies on this thread, for what it's worth, it looks like Wellington is hands-down the most pedestrian-friendly. Interesting how few posts of a similar nature from Chch or Akl, and even fewer from the smaller towns...

It's also interesting to hear about this issue from an urban planner's point of view. Many of ruthyroo's points resonate loudly in our household.

Yes, the "Clean, Green NZ" is obviously an effective marketing gimmick - the truth seems indeed to take a back seat to bringing in tourist and immigrant $$$.

Sandrine & I would make a classic case study in the effects of this somewhat dubious advertising - poster children if you will...

You see, we would have loved to have been able to come to NZ first - a "reccy", as the term appears to be around here. But, this would have cost a lot more $$$ than we had to spend on a vacation.

Anyways, had we visited NZ first, I think we would have really enjoyed ourselves. Because, NZ is tops as a place to travel. But, I think that our visit would have smashed any myth about "Clean, Green", or "100% Pure".

There's also a myth about NZ being "Progressive" as nations go. Let's see: MPR, No-Nukes, No-GMO. That right there is 3 things that Canada hasn't gotten around too, so maybe progressive isn't an unfair adjective.

But we've also seen a few things that have really surprised us, compared to the image we'd formed from overseas. The agricultural practices we've seen here are often shocking: aerial spraying, clearcutting, massive erosion of soil. The Manawatu River, as I write this, is exactly the color of milk chocolate. And that is viewed from a point where there is more livestock than people living upstream, so what gives?

At least 1 pesticide that is considered pretty nasty in Canada, is considered here to be a good spray. And it's so "good", apparently, that town councils just love spraying it all over parks and playgrounds. Yikes...

Then there's of course the massive dependence on cars, as illustrated in this thread, that is rampant everywhere, it seems, except maybe Wellington.

I just hope that people who are considering a move to NZ could at least know about all these things, so they don't come over with a lot of critical misconceptions - which to us they have been.

Perhaps it really depends above all on where you're coming from. I grew up in southern Ontario - which is a small area with close to 10 million people, mainly paved-over, and is Canada's version of the urban England that many of you seem to describe as "Blighty" (not my term - I've never been there other than in transit).

I left that place and moved to western Canada for reasons similar, perhaps, to why many UKers come to NZ. I never, ever, regretted that move - even though I left my whole family and went about 4,000 km away.

I suspect that, if I had left southern Ontario and come directly to NZ, I'd have found this place to be a real paradise.

Judging from the way most people on this list describe (even diplomatically) the land they've left behind in the UK, then it's easy to imagine how the things I've been critical about wrt NZ could be easily forgiven. It's relative, isn't it?

And I wouldn't want to give the impression that western Canada is any cleaner, greener, purer, or more progressive. I think it's got a lot of problems too - otherwise I would never have come here, joined this listserve, or at least I would have but then left months ago.

However, there don't seem to be many Canadians doing like we did, and actually moving to NZ or anywhere else. Probably just all the empty space left in Canada, for the restless ones to shift around - which you in the UK and other crowded places don't have anymore...

Cheers,

Rob

[Avalon]

It is becoming overwhelmingly clear to us just how deep and widespread the car has become intertwined with the world we live in. It seems to be the root cause of the demise of so many small towns here and in Canada. To us, this fact is very sad. Hopefully there are some exceptions to the rule out there...


I get where you are coming from here - but its also perhaps the case that the car is actually keeping small towns and villages alive. Many of the people living down our road (to exactly nowhere), work in the city. By doing so, they can have a plot of land to grow thier food on, keep some animals or generally farm in a multitude of ways, while still earning something above a subsistance wage. Which then gets into the local towns by way of shopping and recreation.

Without the car- this area would be dead. Only the farmers and farmworkers would live here and it would be a damn hard life.

I think its worth remembering that most of NZ is small towns. There really arent many big cities.

On a perhaps helpful side - I did live 9 months in welly without a car. I used to borrow one occasionally if we needed to head somewhere we couldnt get by train or bus, or if we were househunting away from transport links. I could get all my shopping on foot - though I couldnt buy in bulk, and that was a bit irritaing, but i learned to live with it - it was just a new way of doing things for me. I actully came to enjoy food shopping that way - though it knackered my shoulders carrying 2 shopping bags full of meat accross town.

From welly, its a short bus ride into petone, or days bay (great for a day at the beach) but something that did get us a bit was that the bus to scorching bay really only works to get workers into and out of the city - not to let city folk get out to the beach! Just a small oddity!

What makes welly pedestrian "unfriendly" is that none of the city center is "pedestrianised" - ie traffic is everywhere. Takes half the fun out of shopping. I though Christchurch was wonderful because I could actully browse in the shops without having to cross a main road every 2 minutes.

[Diny]

Good post Rob.

I understand that a 'recce' trip is somethimes out of the question (financially) but maybe your thread illustrates the importance of one.

I was very lucky to have visited NZ many times over the 15 years leading up to moving here, and I realised long ago that the clean green 100% pure drivel is nothing more than tourism marketing.

Sadly when some people (and I'm NOT pointing the finger at anybody - just using a general term) decide to come here to live, they are totally 'drawn in' by the above mentioned marketing myth and refuse to remove their rose tinted specs and look at things in a true light.

NZ IS a beautiful country, but it has the same problems as any other country in the world, whether they be political, cultural, environmental or otherwise. I'm sorry to sound abit harsh here - but the sooner people grasp this concept the easier their transitions will be.

Diny

[herseymusic]

The best Wellington suburbs for your needs would probably be Karori (10 mins bus to city), Khandallah, Tawa, or even Houghton Bay or the city end of Island Bay. Small plots of land flat would be available for gardening in many of these places, and they're all between 10 and 30 mins ride on the bus/train from the Wellington CBD. And not to mention upped hutt or silverstream if you don't mind 40-50 mins on the train. Of course you can always walk to the local shops, which are extensive in Karori and Island Bay.

My only gripe with public trans here is not the reach (it goes vaguely near most everywhere), but that the frequency of service drops drastically on nights and weekends. It'll go from a bus every ten minutes to one bus an hour.

My favorite small pedestrian city!! (small city, that is, not small pedestrians)

I've lived in seven different suburbs, and they all have their charms. I'd even enjoy living in Newtown or Berhampore...I love the funky cafes and stores (Nepalese, Samoan, middle eastern) and the multi-ethnic vibe in a village like that. Especially after coming from Vermont...

Come on over to Welly and have a snoop around.

[UktoKiwi]

You cannot survive without a car if you want to make the most of what New Zealand as a whole has to offer.
Sorry - but that's the way it is.
So....
If you HAVE to have a car the word is your oyster as to where you live.
Personally I love Wellington. It has a special international feel to it that I have never experienced anywhere else.
The suburbs are lovely if that's what you are into. ( I am!)
Public transport is very good.
Ultimately - you HAVE to go where the work is.
If you are lucky enough to be able to work anywhere - good on ya. Take your pick.
For us - it was "mainframe" land for my DBA hubby.
So we had a choice of Welly or Welly.
So glad though - if it had been Auckland I would have been back to the UK as quick as a flash!

Carol?
I would appreciate it very much if you would expand on your last sentence about if Auckland you would have returned to UK.
Especially why you think Auckland may be so wrong for you.
Thanks