[Do B Brief]

Well, we tried it and are not happy with it.

My family and I moved out to Wellington 6 months ago and I got a job and a work permit straight away.

Submitted our EOI and after receiving our ITA we have decided against it.

We must be mad you think? Sorry, I would rather save the money we had put to one side for medicals and the extortionate rate commanded by NZIS and put it back into a deposit back home.

Sorry, but NZ is not for us. There is sod all to do and it appears that everyone is after your money!!!!!

My wife does not drive, my daughter is too much of an extravert, my son has Asperger Syndrome and we cannot cope.

We thought we could handle it but I am sorry. It is a nice country etc and yes there are things to do, if you're willing to travel 2-3 hours to get there.

Now I know why we (brits) are called whinging pomes.

I feel sorry for those of you who struggle to get here and here we are turning down PR.

We got screwed by an agency and Pickfords screwed our removals up and our stuff has been in Wellington customs for 4-6 weeks because of it so we told them to hold on to it as we're going back.

Sold our house in Newlands - and you know what? I cannot wait to get out of this wind.

Thanks for the experience NZ but no thanks. Sorry about the company I worked for as it was really great and the people were the same.

Good luck to everyone that tries, at least we gave it a go and in the end it is only money lost but experience gained. It's not every day you have the chance of a change like this, and I get to watch the world cup at a decent hour!!!!

We did not have a lot of money to do this and it has cost quite a few grand. If you are one of the better off or have a decent profit from your UK house sale then you will do well here and will thrive.

You also MUST have a love for the beach as there are "heaps" of them - there, I said it. I swore I never would say that word.

Thanks to everyone on this site who from 6 months ago gave us a wealth of information, it's not hard to do. And watch out for those agencies and expo's - you do not need them (the expo's are good for info but in the end it's just your money they're all after).

Dave G

[Kim39]

Just to wish you good luck for your return home. We have been here 11 weeks now and i must say i'm beginning to wonder why we made this journey. But hey i haven't really given it a go. My problems stem from my employment, as being an HGV driver the whole system runs totally different to that of the UK and i just can't seem to get my head round it. Am sure things will turn around for me and we'll have to remain positive.

and I get to watch the world cup at a decent hour!!!!

Jammy sod!!!!!!:yes

Kim

[kiwidollie]

Sorry things didn't work out for you and your family. Hope the move back to the UK goes well and you find what you are looking for.

Hope you don't mind me asking coz I'm not just being nosey - when you say you did not have a lot of money, but that people who are well off should be fine, can you indicate what sort of sums you have in mind. Well off or not means different things to different people and I really would find it helpful if you could elaborate.

Cheers

Alison

[Do B Brief]

Hi Kim

Got C+E myself but thought - sod that. I am enjoying being a desk jockey.

Alison, as no-one knows me personally here.....

When we sold up in the UK we had about 30K GBP (have US keyboard so no pounds sign!) profit to fund our adventure.

After flights and removals etc that soon went to 20K.

Our landlord died and we were sort of forced out of our rented accomodation so we thought, 20K in the bank - invest it.

The only house we could afford was bought on Manchester Unity land so we have to pay a lease on top of a mortgage. The bank knew that but pushed our doubts to one side and within 5 days we were committed.

So it went into the house we have just sold but making 16K NZ$ after some pretty hard graft and that will go back to funding our removals. Luckily enough, our return flight tickets for July were brought forward with a small charge so some money saved there.

We have friends who have come out here and done the same thing but they had around 75KGBP+ and live life really comfortably.

I seriously think that if you have less than 50K GBP then be careful. The intrest rates are sky. high and our average monthly bank fees are about $25 AND I WORK FOR A.S.B!!!!! Work that one out?

Now I am always in credit in one form or another but as they apply their bank charges on one account it takes you over drawn where they then charge you more for unorthorised overdraft.

Sorry for going on here but that is typical of what I have experienced.

The only time I have not felt ripped off was when I bought some firewood from some old boy in the middle of nowhere for $10.

My wife needs medication for the rest of her life -another expense, schools want you to buy the kids own books and stationary - it all soon adds up.

At least your car insurance is cheap (AA).

Dave

[jewelsvani]

Sorry to here your going back.

i was dead certain i would love living in NZ, now however I think I better be a lot more open minded. I did remeber the feeling of being ripped off left right and centre when I travelled. I guess the only way to know is to go and find out, you have at least done that.

Good luck with it all.

[Diny]

You keep saying 'sorry'. No need to be sorry - like you say, it's only money spent and experience gained.

We're here and enjoying it but I can't see us making old bones here. There's so much hype and gloss viewed through rose tinted specs (by all of us at some stage along the line) - reality hits hard. NZ is not the land of milk and honey.

You came, you experienced, you decided. Good on you. I for one wish you and your family all the luck in the world for your return to Blighty.

Diny

[Nienke]

You took the words right out of my mouth Diny, I wanted to tell David to stop saying sorry as well. At least you gave it a good try, sorry it didn't work out for you and your family.
Have a good move back home!

[Do B Brief]

Hey you lot.

I was expecting you to say "stop moaning" etc, but thanks for your kind words.

It isn't the land of milk and honey and the UK is going to hit home hard.

I have 2 days left at work and then we're off to the South Island for 7 days and then Rotorua.

We fly back into Heathrow on 4th Feb and my old job is still there though as a contractor on more money - work that one out?

It will be good to meet with friends and B&Q has nothing on Bunnings Warehouse for stock and service - one thing I will miss.

So thanks guys and girls and keep this site live - excellent source of information!!!!!

Dave G

[kiwidollie]

Dave thanks for being so open with your answers. It really helps others to be able to get to grips with things financially before taking the plunge. Having said that, of course, no two people will have the same experiences/situations etc but being able to talk stuff over with someone who has actually been there and done it is great.

Really hope you enjoy your hols before heading back over to the uk. Fingers crossed the weather will improve before you get back - its been grey and miserable so far this year.

Wishing you all the best

Alison

[kiwidebs]

Hi Dave

Just wanted to wish you happy hols and safe journey home. You don't need to apologise for trying something that didn't work out. Wow, how many people say 'wish I'd done that' or 'I'd love to try that but....' - well, you've done it, tried it on for size and it didn't work for you. Good on you :nice1 . Horses for courses eh. You're right, it is alot of money, and things are always easier if you're a bit better endowed financially, and that is my biggest worry about leaving our comfortable life here and going to an uncertain financial future in NZ. Thanks for your contributions to this forum too.

Debs

[Debbie]

Good on you for trying it and even more so for having the courage to know your our mind and say enough. Im so glad to read your positive mental attitude to this; so it hasn't worked out, if it was right for everyone NZ would be the most overcrowded place on the planet.
Hope you find what you are looking for. I hope that things settle down well for you back in the UK. Im glad you can see the whole thing for the great learning experience that it has been for you and your family and Im sure you will always feel personally richer for the experience, (although no doubt financially poorer in the short term).
All the best.Debbie

[GeorgeM]

Shame things haven't worked out, but it won't for everyone.

What is bliss for some is hell for others, and it sounds from your post that the things that make NZ heaven for many are not significant enough for you in mitigating the negative aspects of coming over here.

As stated by others - no need to apologise! At least you gave it a go and as you're going back to a job at least you've only lost an amount of money. But in return you've got to find out about another society on the other side of the world warts and all - look on it as an expensive working holiday from which you can take home many experiences. And at least you'll not spend the rest of your life regretting not coming over at all, which I'm sure many people do.

(And although you'll get the soccer world cup at a decent hour just think of all the Super 14 matches that will be at an awkward time! You win some....)

[Carol]

(And although you'll get the soccer world cup at a decent hour just think of all the Super 14 matches that will be at an awkward time! You win some....)


Yeah but that's rugby isn't it? So who gives a toss?
;) :nice1



The first year of being here was hell for us.
We came with even less money - although that WAS a while ago.
But I just couldnt come to terms with being turned down for a mortgage by the bank that my husband was working for.
I did eventually meet some pretty wonderful people - and even now still am.

To be blunt - your personal circumstances are difficult enough without plonking yourself in the middle of nowhere with no support and little financial resources.

So.....well done for sticking it out for the time you have.
And good luck for going back - there but for the grace of god..........

Carol

[Avalon]

As others have said - there is absolutely nothing you haev to say sorry for. Your life is yours to live - you do not have to justify your decisions to anyone other than yourselves, and you dont have to live your life by other peoples rules, likes or dislikes. You are doing what you want to do, and what makes you and yours happy. Its no more "wrong" to ship back to the UK than it is to ship out here in the first place.

I know Im big on this - but you had a dream and you went for it. So few people do, and id hazard a guess that even fewer then have the courage to admit that it was a mistake when its not for them. I really think you should be rather proud of yourselves.

{{{HUGS}}}

[David with a dream]

Dave me old flower well done, you gave it a go and will be back in time for world cup fever :D . We also came back and it feels real strange at first. I wont go on to much as you will know what I'm talking about soon. Have a fantastic holiday and do let us know how things pan out for you back in the UK...Good luck mate you and yours sound like real stars :clap
David.................... :nice1

[Wannaway]

Hmm, interesting. We are on the horns of a dilemma too, do we stay or do we go back. Totally identify with the whole financial aspects of the move, Auckland is really ridiculously expensive compared to salaries etc. Can't help feeling that we haven;t given it enough of a go yet though....

You gave it a go and so won't have any regrets in that regard, you had the courage of your convictions (both in coming to NZ and going back to NZ) so good on you for that.

[chips]

God i am with you so much on that wind one !!!!!
We were only there for 5 days and it was enough.
Also i feel for your kids. I have noticed that kids here are very quiet, that's not to say well behaved ,but just no zest for life. They just seem to stare at you. Mine go around making lots of hullabaloo and squaking with delight, they seem to really stand out ,and don't seem to care too much.
All the best with your relocation back to the uk, just enjoy the last of the summer whilst you are here. Chips

[Hannah]

Hi Dave, similar to you we came out on a holiday visa have got work permits etc. My view is that if we go back when our return flights are booked (end of April) we will not have failed, we will only have gained.
I relate to what you say about turning down PR while other's are striving to get it. Yesterday i faced the difficult decision of turning down a job offer which could have got me residency (I'm best placed as main applicant), simply because i felt that the demands of the job would have ripped our family apart. (I asked if they had flexible working - i was told "yes, we require you to work some early mornings if inspecting dairies or late nights when we are do our unannounced pub raids". Asked if i could take the odd afternoon off in lieu i was told that "this is not encouraged as it leads to clock watching, we need you to be in the office at 8am and leave at 4.30pm as this is when the public know we can be contacted". VERY flexible eh! Thanks but no thanks as you put it Dave. The salary was good, but like so many on this forum i didn't move here to make big bucks. Reasonable time for myself and my family is a minimum requirement of my life here.

I've PM'd you, but for the benefit of those on this site my partner is has got a work permit and is doing a job at the moment which demands that he sell his soul to the company for his paltry $17 an hour. He's out of the house from 6am to 7pm and staying overnight sometimes (without pay) because the job (alarm fitting) requires this. He has no annual leave in the first year and then he gets 10 days a year after that. His contract even says that if he comes up with a 'good idea' or invention during his time with the company then the company have ownership of that idea/invention and any profits that result from it (?????????????????????????????????????)

I realise this is our experience, and other people have experienced jobs that do respect work-life balance, and i'm open-minded enough to be applying for other jobs (another interview lined up soon) but i'm also aware of several people (not via the forum) who have moved from overseas who find the work situation less favourable in terms of conditions and pay. Flexible working, home working, decent holidays, annual leave in the FIRST YEAR of work, health and safety at work, sickness/other leave and absence policies were all standard conditions in my previous job (NHS) and my partner's job (a housing association). We haven't found anything yet that nearly matches it. I met a chap from South Africa the other day who said to me "Where is all that extra time that people say you get in New Zealand - I've never worked harder, more longer hours in my life".

I say again, this is our experience and i don't suppose it's typical. I do still have hope i will find a job with similar working hours, expectations and conditions as my job in England. I can cope with lower salary, and i expect lower salary - i simply want a job that respects i have a private life and a family outside of my work life. I had a senior management role (flexible and part time) in a primary care trust before I came to NZ and for all the negative things said about the NHS i have never felt that my right to a life outside work was not respected. The flexibility worked BOTH ways. If I do not find a job that respects this I will have to return to England on this basis alone as I know we cannot bring up our children as we feel we want to without this. Indeed i may not be offered another job in my time here and i will have lost the opportunity to apply for PR - so be it.

I wonder what other's experiences of working in New Zealand are? I do believe (hope?) our experiences are probably non typical and we've been unlucky.

Good luck Dave! I hope things go well for your children as they settle back into the UK (i'm sure they will - and think of the stories they will have to tell their friends!!)

Hannah (sorry to go on, but i learnt touch typing some years ago and it's easy to ramble!)

[Diny]

Also i feel for your kids. I have noticed that kids here are very quiet, that's not to say well behaved ,but just no zest for life. They just seem to stare at you.


Well hip hip hooray !!!!!!!!!! I could kiss you for saying that !!!!!

I just about crawl up the wall with frustration when I hear about how kids over here are so well mannered, confident, up-front and on their way to making splendid adults. Of course there's exceptions to every rule but I've lost count of how many 'youngsters' I've met that fit your description down to a 'T'. The word I use is morose.

Diny

[Carol]

*gulp*




what the heck am I going to do with my three!!! Especially Chloe!!
Deborah had her in full force yesterday....:D

PAss the wine...

[Smiler]

She's gorgeous, I'll have her. :D


D x

[Avalon]

I've PM'd you, but for the benefit of those on this site my partner is has got a work permit and is doing a job at the moment which demands that he sell his soul to the company for his paltry $17 an hour. He's out of the house from 6am to 7pm and staying overnight sometimes (without pay) because the job (alarm fitting) requires this. He has no annual leave in the first year and then he gets 10 days a year after that. His contract even says that if he comes up with a 'good idea' or invention during his time with the company then the company have ownership of that idea/invention and any profits that result from it (?????????????????????????????????????)


Is that legal??????? :mad:

At OH's job - they are obliged by NZ employment law to pay for overtime (despite the Aussie head office having rules that say OT will not be paid). The company in this case prefers to pay the time as Lime off in leiu).

Also, is it really legal to refuse holday in the first year? Sounds horrific to me. The other thing is taht the Holidays act has changed an I thought that everyone was not legally entitled to 4 weeks holiday.

Would you consider getting some legal advise on this - from say the Citizens advice. Sorry if im teaching you to suck eggs and you already have.

It just seems sooooo out of order.

[kiwidebs]

Hi Hannah (sorry to hijack your thread Dave) - I agree with Avalon, he's entitled to 15 days annual leave, going up to 20 next year. Under the Holidays Act 2003, employees are entitled to a minimum of three weeks' annual holidays after the first year of employment. This provision is increased to a minimum of four weeks' annual holidays from 1 April 2007, and the detail of that change can be found in the four weeks (http://www.ers.dol.govt.nz/holidays_act_2003/4weeks.html) section.

I found this on the following website http://www.ers.dol.govt.nz/holidays_act_2003/annual.html

And how can they make him do nights without pay. There's def something wrong there.

Hope this helps
Debs

[Moorf]

I agree, sounds like he's been taken advantage of. I know that many employment contracts state no holiday can be taken in first year, hubby's does, but they didn't make him stick to it - in fact after working for 2 months they let him take 2 weeks off. Having said that, I know of one person here in NZ who has had to wait a year before having any holiday.

I've never in my life heard of the idea of a company sharing in the profits of an invention or idea of one of their employees (unless, of course, the R&D took place at the company or with company funds or equipment?), that's definitely one to check with Citizens Advice or an employment lawyer.

However, if he's signed the contract and the requirements are within law then that's what he's signed up for. I can only think that you need to get yourself another employer, one who will treat his employees more fairly. This certainly doesn't fit with my impression and experience of Kiwi employers. :no Such a shame that this has been your experience of working in New Zealand so far. :(

[Smiler]

Have I read the link right. It says that it's 3 weeks holiday after a year of work?


I'm sorry to hijack Dave as well.

D x

[kiwidebs]

Yup, 15 days a year, after the first year. I find it amazing that you have to work for the first year before you are legally entitled to any annual leave :eek: . But at least it's going up to 20 days a year from next year. Gonna be a shock to my system after 7 weeks a year here (including public hols). Probably the only thing I'll miss about working for the NHS though.

Debs

[Moorf]

Yep, Smiler, you read right. Hubby's contract says same but they didn't hold him to it. My library contract simply says I have to pay it back if I leave before the year is up.

[Avalon]

I wonder if this is about having to accrue holiday before you take it. The way my OH contract is written it seem to say tou cant take the holiday UNTIL you have worked the time needed to accrue it. Which at first glance emans you would have to work a year with no hols in order to get hols for the next year. However in doesnt seemt o actually mEAN that. I had someone try and pull the same stunt in the UK as a way of trying to deny staff holidays ofr the first year. Totally illegal.

(Sorry Dave)

[GeorgeM]

15 days is the current minimum - lots of people get more than this.

In addition there are between 8 (in a very bad year) and 10 (in a normal year) public holidays.

[Moorf]

Seems not too bad when the average no. of days hols in the USA is 12!!!




The average vacation time (excluding bank holidays) offered to British workers is 28 days a year, slightly more than the European average of 24 days' annual holiday. But in Italy it is a far more generous 42 days; in Germany 37. The figures vary widely from country to country and company to company. Some have arrangements to let workers "bridge" between midweek public holidays and weekends; others allow people to take off substantial numbers of days in a single break during the "best" months.

The rule of thumb is that the bigger the economy, the fewer days off workers get. Europe fares far better than the US, where workers get an average of 12 days' paid vacation a year and nine public holidays. Productivity may have trebled in 40 years, but the benefits have been offered in pay rather than free time.

One study found that there has been a reduction of leisure time in the US of 140 hours a year in the past 20 years. Another suggests that one in three Americans take half or less of their already minimal holiday entitlement. In Japan, the world's second biggest economy, the statutory holiday entitlement is only slightly higher, with an average of 17 days' holiday. However, only 9.5 are actually taken and only one in two employees gets a regular two-day weekend. At least 10,000 Japanese - and an increasing number of Koreans - are believed to die from karoshi, or overwork, each year.




[/QUOTE]

Although I think NZ bucks his trend of " the bigger the economy the fewer days off workers get" :D

[Nienke]

:eek: Ouch! I'm used to 8 weeks a year.....(but I work at a university in Holland) and my husband had 6 weeks as a minimum (when he worked overtime he could claim those hours as vacation). He now has 4 weeks, and cannot claim overtime. He can have a holiday in his first year though.

[Monzie]

I always shake my head when the subject of vacation time comes up in this forum.

I consider myself very fortunate to have an employer who gives me 10 days paid leave per year, plus 3 personal/sick days. Many (most) employers here in the States give NO paid leave during the first year of employment and then give 5 days per year for the first 3 to 5 years. This can make life quite miserable for job-hoppers like me.

One of my former employers gave no time off until a new employee had worked a complete calendar year. I started working for them in April, so I got no time off for that partial year....and then I got no time off for the entire subsequent year. So, my first 5 vacation days came after I'd been working there for 21 months.

So, the value of employment benefits is just a matter of perspective I guess. I, for one, would be thrilled to get "only three weeks off"....

(Sheesh...I sound like a grouchy old woman, don't I? "In my day, we got no vacation time, and we worked 25 hours a day at mill for 10 pence a year, came home to our shack, ate a handful of cold gravel, and crawled into a hole in the dirt we called a bed...and we liked it!" :D )

[john & becky]

In the Uk the employment law (and human rights act) states that holiday is accrued from the day you start. If your entitlement is 20 days per year you accrue at the rate of 1.66666 days per month. The employer is allowed to stop you taking more holiday than you have already become entitled to ( you can't take 10 days off after 2 months but you can take 3 days) but whatever you have accrued is yours. The only difference to this occurs when you are contractually obliged to take a certain nuber of days in a particular month say because of work peaks and troughs.
In short, its basic human rights to have time off, although the hague would have something to say on our behalf in europe, whats the situation in Australasia?

[foolsgold99]

His contract even says that if he comes up with a 'good idea' or invention during his time with the company then the company have ownership of that idea/invention and any profits that result from it

this sounds like a fairly standard intelecual property clause. I've had an IP clause like this in every contract I've ever signed. I don't care about htis because I've no intention of inventing anything, or if I do I'll hide it until I leave.

In terms of hols, I had a few contract offers worded saying no hols for first year, but I practise I accure hols every month and can take them whenever I want. Each month my payslip shows number of holiday days I've earned, i accure something like 1.5 days a month, which will go up next year when we get 4 weeks

[wilson182]

Well hip hip hooray !!!!!!!!!! I could kiss you for saying that !!!!!

I just about crawl up the wall with frustration when I hear about how kids over here are so well mannered, confident, up-front and on their way to making splendid adults. Of course there's exceptions to every rule but I've lost count of how many 'youngsters' I've met that fit your description down to a 'T'. The word I use is morose.

Diny

OMG....you guys have obviously never been to my daughters homework club then!!!!!!!

[GeorgeM]

Well hip hip hooray !!!!!!!!!! I could kiss you for saying that !!!!!

I just about crawl up the wall with frustration when I hear about how kids over here are so well mannered, confident, up-front and on their way to making splendid adults. Of course there's exceptions to every rule but I've lost count of how many 'youngsters' I've met that fit your description down to a 'T'. The word I use is morose.

Diny
The problem with well mannered, confident, up-front teenagers on their way to making splendid adults is that they cause so much litter!

I hear that it's much more clean and tidy in Palmy where the teenagers are more morose... :laugh

[chips]

To be honest i wouldn't say the kids are that well mannered here either. It's a perception we have of them.
The differance seems to be that they have a slight , a smige more respect for their teachers . They can still be as rude to strangers as the next kid in the next country. And they bl88dy do litter ,it's their elders that follow and clean up after them.
As the say " kids will be kids"

[ruthyroo]

My impression of the kids here is that their behaviour is a reflection of the supposed "classless' society here in NZ. Mr Rr has really been taken aback by how familiar the kids are to him as a teacher - they are really nosy about where he lives, who he's married to, what he does at the weekend etc and have no qualms about asking him, at any age. There is none of the pupil - teacher distance that exists in the UK. And having spoken to adult kiwis about it, they remember their parents telling them to not kowtow to anyone - whether a teacher or whatever. It's not that they've been told to be rude - but they haven't grown up under the social rules of the UK either, where the ideal (and I know that this is very much the ideal not the reality these days!) is that "you are children, you will respect me the teacher / adult - becuase I am the teacher / adult - end of story". When that doesn't exist it takes a bit of ingenuity to find a new way to keep control!

And it goes for all generations. Kiwis value 'plain speaking' and that often comes across as rudeness to my delicate UK sensibilities.

I think it's part of what make kiwis confident, outgoing people who are generally great travellers, and able to get on with people in any circumstances. OTOH it can be seen as disrespectful, rude and ill mannered!

[tigerlily]

I feel like this thread is having about 5 conversations going on at once. So I'll add one more. As an American, my view on so many of these things is totally different from someone who has so UK sensibilites. I've just realised that we are really talking about 3 very different cultures here.

for example- a law that mandates how much time off a person can get? Wonderful idea! No such laws that I know of here in the US.

example- the "high cost" of medication/health care in NZ. I'm paying US$270 a month to insure my family of 4 for a minimal health insurance policy with a yearly deductable of over US$3000. After I pay $3000 in health care bills, they will start to pay 80% and I will pay 20%. Is there anyway that the situation could be this bad in NZ? I'm paying off thousands of dollars in hospital bills for the 2 night stay my son had in the hospital when he had pneumonia. It made me want to move even more.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you don't like NZ, for goodness sake, don't move to the US.

[Wannaway]

Yes, I workd for the UK arm of a US co, reporting to people in the States and my perception was that there labour laws were really anti-employee. In fact that hated doing business in continental Europe, where employees generally have greater rights than the UK.

I think it is fair o say that generally the UK has reasonably fair employment laws, the US porr and NZ is somewhere in between but veering a bit to the US.

As for healthcare, again NZ sits somewhere in between the UK and US, but in this instance I would say NZ is probably closer to the UK than the US.

[Wannaway]

Before anyone asks, no I wasn't sacked from my job for appalling typing skills!

[wanderingoregonian]

I have to agree with TigerLily about the US employment situations- I certainly hope the world doesn't move towards the american model. Its just too easy to get burned out or completely overwhelmed with medical bills here.

I'm very very lucky here to work with a generous non-profit. They allow me to take off the summers unpaid (not a lot of work when school is not in session for me) and I earn about 1 day vacation per month of time off + plus a few public holidays. They also let me take my time whenever I want - it's sick time, holiday, personal time all rolled into one. I can take it in large chunks or 1 hour at a time for appointments, and as long as I meet my billable hours for the month - don't have to explain why I'm taking time off to my boss.

I meet people who tell crazy stories about their work rules. One women I know with was very nervous about her pregnency. Her due date was exactly long enough after she started to be entitle to maternity leave, however should the baby have been born prematurely she would only have her sick days and accrued holiday time to take off, and she probably would have lost her job. She luckily was 2 weeks late! Same place requires doctor notes in addition to calling you at home to confirm you are there if you call in sick. Plus if you call in sick the day before or after a public holiday, they dock you a sick day for that holiday!

Another friend had to declare bankrupcy when she had her son - 3 weeks premature. Her husband had lost his job, and signed up for COBRA - which is when you pay your part and your former employers part of your health insurance (hundreds of dollars per year). Even though she worked, she was on her husband's insurance because it was cheaper than buying into her company's plan. Well low and behold, the health insurance company (after my friends had paid a couple thousand in COBRA payments) said that they didn't cover premies - and the family was saddled with all the hospital bills. It was just too much on top of months of not working...

I know that health care and employee rights are very tricky issues for any society, but seesh why does it it make so little sense here in the US?

[GeorgeM]

I know that health care and employee rights are very tricky issues for any society, but seesh why does it it make so little sense here in the US?I think that part of the problem is down to the litigeous (sp?) nature of US society which has made the practice of medicine a very risky business there. The possibility of being taken for a huge settlement by some disaffected patient means that on the one hand much 'just in case' medicine is practiced and on the other indemnity insurance premiums for doctors are sky high and are necessarily passed on to the end user.

Far better to live with the occasional cock-up from a medico but retain a health system where everything doesn't cost the earth, I think. Punitive damages punish all of society not just errant doctors.

[MB]

:yes
I'm very very lucky here to work with a generous non-profit.

I, too, worked for one. Very encouraging in terms of opportunities within my job, and v.fair and helpful re. my and my family's medical and other benefits.
Also gives me a chance for my usual tribute (rolls up sleeves...oh oh, watch out everyone) :
As someone born and brought up in the UK who became a naturalized US citizen, my experience of Americans and the northwest US has been extremely positive to say the least. More than one person has pointed out the telling pattern whereby, 'despite' being the bastion of capitalism and supposed ruthlessness and crassness, regular Americans are very often extremely good at anything covered by the inverse of that daft sterotype... from solid social programs to compassion to analytic ability to comedy.
Whenever I think back to any scene in or part of Seattle, it's an affectionate one. Love it and love the people. :clap
And I'm not just saying that 'cos Yankee wife is hovering in background. :laugh
Okay, am shutting up and closing memory album now. :yes

[gil]

I have just read this thread from last post back to first, so found some very interesting points of view on a range of employment/health topics.
But I just want to endorse what everyone has said to Dave: good on ya. You have done it and decided it's not for you. In my book, there's no difference between this and trying different foods, deciding you don't like them and therefore not eating them again. Except the £££!!
Well done to you and your family, have a lovely rest of time there and a safe journey back to UK. Let us know how it all goes,
Gil

[Juniper]

i have a question for dave, and the rest of ya - more about the nature of kiwis.

dave, you said one of your reasons that NZ was not the right place for your family is that your daughter is too extroverted?

i have to say that i'm a bit worried about this image of the kiwis as a sort of reserved, blend-into-the-crowd kind of folk. it's not the first time i've heard that they are not really emotionally demonstrative, or eager to stand out...and yet by all reports they are super friendly and fun to talk to? i'm trying to reconcile these two images in my head. so, they are outgoing as far as being friendly...but reserved when it comes to emotional displays, talents/sucess, or just plain being weird?

so, when you say your daughter was too extroverted, does that mean that kids gave her grief for not blending in? (i think that happens everywhere, but the question is, how reserved do you have to be to fit in with kiwis?)

in many ways new zealand sounds similar to california, but we are definitely not -reserved- where i'm from! a common bumper sticker/t-shirt around here is "keep santa cruz weird." (subtext, "support our street performers.")

it will really bug me if everyone is afraid of showing off talents or strange thoughts or offbeat clothes or whatever. i like standing out, and i like people who stand out!

i was hoping wellington, a very artsy town, would have lots of extroverts...even if it's not the national norm...?

[dave k]

Thought I'd chime in here concerning the kiwi reserved-ness...

Personally speaking, I appreciate this particular national trait - possibly since it's one they share with us English. You'll find plenty of talented ( and weird) kiwis ( especially in Welly) I can 100% guarantee you...but they don't feel the need to constantly advertise it to everybody.

If a kiwi is a genuinely talented & creative person, this will be evident in their actions rather than their words. I'm a musician myself & know lots of other musos here who can be very extroverted when performing, but will be quietly modest otherwise. It's part inner-confidence and part insecurity, and often means that it'll maybe take you much longer to get to know the true measure of a person.

I'm personally always very suspicious of people who, when I first meet them, can't seem to stop talking about themselves and their achievements/talents. I'm way more impressed when it turns out that someone I've thought I've known well for say a year, will suddenly surprise me by showing me a book they've written & had published ( true story).

[Juniper]

ok that's comforting...yeah no one likes a person who can't stop talking about themselves, but the kind of person who's not afraid to ham it up at karaoke is the kind i usually click with! no braggarts please, but don't hold back when you're behind the mic, hehe...

maybe i'm reading too much into this "tall poppy" thing...isn't that where the people who excel too much are "cut down" in some fashion? maybe that's only for braggarts...

i think i was fortunate in the long run to be a "geek" "nerd" "whatever" in school, because that's when i realized that i wasn't going to fit in, so i might as well be myself :-P normality is overrated... but i was confused that "do b brief" dave's kid was shunned just for being outgoing...?

[kiwidollie]

Just boinging this thread up as folk seem to have missed the bit about them going home.

Thought it might be useful - got a bit confused myself I must admit!