[chips]

Here is a quick poll of what people, who are in Nz think of the education system.
THIS IS NOT a jib at teachers (hubbie is one) or how the children behave.
I mean , what's this about starting the day you are 5 . Totally screwy.(imo)
This is compared to where you have come from. Better or worse etc.
Chips

[jo b]

Hmm

Difficult one, for me worse, my kids 7 and 10 were in fee paying schools and are extremely bright but I fear this build up their confidence first will make them drop behind, my kids don't need to have their condfidence built up. we are seriously considering a fee paying senior school for my daughter.

So will keep you posted.

jo

[Carol]

I'm the wrong person to reply in here I think - having just sat for 5 hours in my armchair doing preparation for school next week.
And that was just today - I did almost the same yesterday..... marking and "giving feedback".
This is a normal primary school we are talking about here.

The demands are huge.

If the teachers in "fee paying schools" can be fitting in any more work per week than me I'll take my hat off the them!



One thing that HAS irritated me incessantly since I got here is that the MOE in NZ doesnt seem to look around the rest of the world to see what IS working and what isn't.
They follow blindly - and implement ridiculous curriculums at the cost of many lost teachers who left because all they wanted to do was teach - not spend 10 hours every weekend doing paperwork.

I've asked myself this more times than I care to remember in the last few years...
"Did I REALLY come to New Zealand for this??"

*Miss Grumpy*

[Carol]

Starting at 5


I think this is excellent that this happens.
You are a star for the day.
It is a truly special day.

You are not one of 30 - you are an individual.

It is perhaps one of the best things about the NZ school system I have come across.
Yes sure - some kids are ready earlier - but there are as many who still aren't ready at 5.


I know one thing - I wish my son had started school here insted of me railroading him in at 4 years and 3 months on September 1st just because it was the done thing.

He was nowhere NEAR ready to start school!

[sizzlingbadger]

My son started school here the first week of February. He was 5 middle of last November but I held him off going until Feb simple because of the Christmas holidays coming. I'm glad I did because there wasn't much curriculum work going on in the weeks leading to the holiday and it wasn't the introduction I wanted him to have for school.

A month on and he's thriving, coping much better than if he started last September, he wasn't ready then. He's already gone from writing a couple of words to full paragraphs without any help, counting to 100, counting 20 backwards perfectly. He also mirror images words perfectly which I'm still a little worried about but the teacher is keeping an eye on that.

I think at primary the schooling is much, much better. He's in a class of 15 and most of whom he already knows from kindy, his teacher is wonderful and has a great attitude, firm but fair. She's there every morning to great the kids into class and at the end of the day she checks that they've got everything. She apologised to me one day last week simple because she forgot to check that he had got his fleece, he had forgotten it and I went in the next day to ask her if I'd seen, I wasn't expecting her to apologise though. You're expected to go to the class room door with them not stand outside the gate worrying if they'll get 2 heavy bags to their own pegs. They're also not in a class of 30 or more kids wondering what the hells going to happen to them as they've never been before like UK kids.

Which would I choose ? NZ over UK for primary, I'm yet to go through the secondary school with them. But from what I've heard the secondary school system is a bit better than the UK system but we'll wait and see.

[Mildred]

One thing that HAS irritated me incessantly since I got here is that the MOE in NZ doesnt seem to look around the rest of the world to see what IS working and what isn't.
They follow blindly - and implement ridiculous curriculums at the cost of many lost teachers who left because all they wanted to do was teach - not spend 10 hours every weekend doing paperwork.

I've asked myself this more times than I care to remember in the last few years...
"Did I REALLY come to New Zealand for this??"

*Miss Grumpy*

Carol,

This is exactly why my husband gave up teaching 2 years ago in the UK, so don't think it is unique to NZ. He used to dread the weekend, as he knew from the moment he got in from school on Friday night he would be doing non-stop marking, lesson plans, preparing assemblies etc etc. School holidays were just as bad. He absolutely loved teaching, and by all acounts was excellent at it, but the system was making him neglect his own children.

He's now in his old profession on more money and less hours.

[Carol]

I'm having very similar thoughts Frances......

The sad thing is - I know I am doing the same thing.
I can't wind down on a Friday - because I know what is coming over the weekend.

All I want is to teach - but the amount of work I am expected to do in my own time just grows and grows.

I am at school until well 6pm Monday Tuesday and Thursday.
So much for the 9-3pm job and ALL THOSE HOLIDAYS!

yeah right.

[StevieD]

Easy being a teacher innit?! Long holidays, lots of them, and finish work early....

Then people forget about all the prep and marking, headaches dealing with little darlings by the bucketload - oh joy :)

Way underpaid and undervalued in my book.

[jubjub]

Carol, if it makes you feel any better, I have a friend teaching in Oz, and she is working harder than she did in the UK, and she worked hard then, I reckon overworked teachers are pretty well spread throughout the westernised world (cant comment on any other cultures)Hmm, just realised our boy would start school very close to xmas or due to start xmas hols so wont start until 2011, but at least he will start right at the beginning of a school year, so that will be good I think.

[Simon & Emily]

This may be another stupid question - I seem to specalise in them most of the time :o - but at the start of the academic term in Feb, how many children will start the first year of primary school, on average? I'm asking 'cos my daughter will be 5 at christmas, and therefore her first day at school should also be the start of the January term. Here in the UK there would be the 10 - 15 or so kids who turn 5 during that term starting. Will she be likely to be in a class with only one or two other children?

Thanks,

Emily

[Carol]

Usually around about 7-10 Emily

Monday morning.....feeling better for sleep!

[Simon & Emily]

Thanks Carol - I had visions of a little Billy no mates, starting school on her own :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

The only thing that upsets her about moving is not starting at big brothers 'big' school in September.

Thanks,

Emily

[Carol]

It varies from school to school Emily - but they usually take the kids who start at the end of the year back into New Entrants for a while at the start of the following year - so there is always some kids to play with! :nice1

[jo b]

I think I wasn't in the right frame of mind to respond to this thread (seriously bad homesickness).

I really haven't experienced enough to judge BUT the difference I feel is that I am a little at arms length. In the kids old school I could look at thier books anytime, take them into class help sort thier stuff etc. i.e I knew exactly what they were being taught. At the moment I haven't got a clue. Beth aged 10, doesn't seem to get ANY homework. She brought home her spelling book, words like school, them, there etc. 30 odd words, she got everyone right because she was spelling them 3 years ago :sad. So the teacher no has to choose different words for her BUT I still see no homework. we are giving our kids extra work at home to make up.

So I supposed the homesickness, feeling lost and out of control, doesn't help with my thoughts.

Sorry if it doesn't help anyone, ask me in 6 months time and I may have a better view on things.

Jo

[Hannah]

In the UK my children aged 10 and 7 hated school. My daughter hated school as soon as she left reception and went into year 1 where there was 'no more play'. She had to be dragged out of bed every morning and we would go through the same ritual (tummy ache, feel sick, etc etc). She walked in looking miserable and she walked out looking miserable.

In NZ she loves school, she loves her teacher, she walks into school smiling and she runs out full of the joys of spring. Her writing, reading etc has improved and she talks about what she has learnt that day. Yes i think she does less 'work' but she learns more, simply because she is happy.

I don't care about homework, curriculums, reading levels, blah blah... i care that my daughter doesn't spend 6 hours a day feeling miserable.

When my son was 5 his classmate died in an accident that was publicised across the UK at the time. It was a horrendous time and I realised then just how much I took for granted. From that day forward I have never worried about the details of the education system and what my children do or don't achieve in it compared to some bureacrat's idea of what is 'normal'. Each day I spare a moment to remind myself how lucky I am that my children are healthy, happy and safe. To see my children smile as they go into and out of school is the icing on the cake.

[willsken]

I agree that "work" at a young age isn't important. (to me) I have 2 bright little boys, one loves school and doing lots of work (We set him work at home as he does his homework within 10 mins of getting in from school) my older boy however, hates work. The battles to get him to do his homework are terrible.

I think both boys will do well at school in the end, but I also think they have plenty of time to get there.

[jo b]

I think the point I am trying to make is that for a girl who loves to work, being challenged and enjoys homework and gets on with it without a moan, same with my little boy, it's hard when their ways are being changed in what for me seems worse.

But each to their own

jo

[katandbob]

I

I don't care about homework, curriculums, reading levels, blah blah... i care that my daughter doesn't spend 6 hours a day feeling miserable.

When my son was 5 his classmate died in an accident that was publicised across the UK at the time. It was a horrendous time and I realised then just how much I took for granted. From that day forward I have never worried about the details of the education system and what my children do or don't achieve in it compared to some bureacrat's idea of what is 'normal'. Each day I spare a moment to remind myself how lucky I am that my children are healthy, happy and safe. To see my children smile as they go into and out of school is the icing on the cake.

Hannah I agree, but for different reasons....mine are at the end of their schooling, seems I am the only one on here where their kids will be in college, or uni! (so old!! ;) )

BUT what I can say with my heart that when ALL my kids went into secondary school they were getting A's, SAT scores of 5+ (youngest got 7+)
they enjoyed learning.....but I have seen that enthusiasum drain like a leaky tire....no matter what I did to try and prevent it...teachers quitting due to poor management....wrong curriculum taught (this debacle was not realised until 8wks before my daughters GCSE, (teacher was on longterm sick) and by the time she was back it was too late and the WHOLE class ended up getting D's!) there was 2 kids put into the intermediate but they had to have extra lessons every night after school!

Not being able to choose the options the kids were interested!...youngest wanted to do phiosopy??(spellings crap...did bad at school :laugh )
but it clashed with bus studies....so what was he told to do....DRAMA :wah

He will not get a good grade for this as he hates it...as he says its a waste of a grade...hes trying but hes no actor (except when hes ill :D )

Now I have to leave my youngest to do his GCSE's while we are over in NZ setting up....I have bought every revision book he needs and paid for him to go to a revision camp....but at the end of the day I doubt he will get what he is actually capable of due to the fact that he couldnt do the options he wanted....and over the last 2 yrs has become dissalusioned with school.

I hope he gets acceptable grades...told him hes wasting his future if he has to start again!

So if the NZ schools seem to make more of making school fun....but balance with learning with that fun....I think you should be happy....a happy kid will learn.....a bored kid will shut down and not try!

thats my point of view anyway.....wish I could have got there 5 yrs ago!

I'd have all of them over there with me then - guaranteed

Kat

[Diny]

There's no real need for me to go into detail here, I've voiced my concerns a dozen times already.

There's alot of things I like about NZ schooling (both of mine are in primary so I can't comment on secondary schooling). However there's a huge amount I don't like.

At the end of the day it's the cold, hard facts that slam home to me. Both of my boys have taken a huge step backwards since starting school here.

I have experienced the same 'frustrations' as Jo regarding the 'level' of work they are doing. For example, the spellings my boys have to learn for their Friday test are words like where, house, story etc - the boys were doing these words years ago !!! They don't even practice them because they know them already - they are basic words.

I agree that there's alot of good 'bits' but, for us, they are hugely out numbered by the 'bad'.

I would also like to stress that it's NOT the teachers, it's the system. I agree with Carol's comments regarding how NZ should look at the rest of the world for a few ideas.

My parents have recently been here to stay with us and they were shocked at how the boys have fallen behind, so much so that they day before they left they sat me down and offered to pay for them to have private education.

As for private education, from what we can see, they seem to concentrate more on the academic side of schooling than the state schools. Whether people think this is right or wrong, it's a 'method' of schooling which suits our boys (in as much as they need constant 'pushing' to remain average students) and us.

If you ask our boys whether they prefer school here or back at home they will say here. I'm sure that's what all the 'pro NZ school' people will want to hear. But if you dig a little deeper and ask them why they will answer ...'because we hardly do any work here'. Are we wrong for finding that unacceptable?

I'm a firm believer that there's good and bad, right and wrong, positives and negatives in every situation we come across in life. It's just that - going by the performance I've seen so far - NZ primary schooling is a long way off the mark IMHO.

One thing is for sure, if we suddenly found ourselves heading back to the UK the boys would return to school over there and would be seriously lagging behind. I guess it's just one of those 'old frashioned' ideas of mine, but I believe children should make a steady journey forwards in their learning, even standing still for a while is normal and OK, but going backwards, with no sign of that backwards slide stopping, well, to us that's not acceptable.

We have advertised for a private tutor, hopefully this will quell our worries. If not then I guess it's private education.

Diny

[willsken]

If you ask our boys whether they prefer school here or back at home they will say here. I'm sure that's what all the 'pro NZ school' people will want to hear. But if you dig a little deeper and ask them why they will answer ...'because we hardly do any work here'. Are we wrong for finding that unacceptable?

I'm a firm believer that there's good and bad, right and wrong, positives and negatives in every situation we come across in life. It's just that - going by the performance I've seen so far - NZ primary schooling is a long way off the mark IMHO.

One thing is for sure, if we suddenly found ourselves heading back to the UK the boys would return to school over there and would be seriously lagging behind. I guess it's just one of those 'old frashioned' ideas of mine, but I believe children should make a steady journey forwards in their learning, even standing still for a while is normal and OK, but going backwards, with no sign of that backwards slide stopping, well, to us that's not acceptable.

We have advertised for a private tutor, hopefully this will quell our worries. If not then I guess it's private education.

Diny

Hi Diny

I will try to explain why I feel as I do.

I don't think for one second that you are wrong to feel the way you do. I have the impression from your previous posts that you lived in a lovely area and you children went to a very good school. How I wish that this could have been the case for my boys. I value good education and we even looked into moving house so the boys would be in the right catchment area. We just couldn't afford it. :wah

The school they should have attended is awful. Their results are dreadful, the bullying is rife and the teachers so stressed with the very very bad behaviour of the pupils they spend a lot of time on the sick (I know this is true as I did my own teaching practice there). My friend’s daughter attends this school and has not had a physics teacher for 2 years and has a high proportion of her teaching from supply teachers. (All this being said, it is by far a better school that many across the country!)

The school I teach in is MUCH better and my son comes to school with me, but you still have some of the above problems. This is a fairly good school by the standards of “most” (unless you are very lucky where you live)

So I think the point I (and others :confused: ) are trying to make is that our children will receive a better education in NZ schools because the schools our children attend in the UK are bad in comparison to most schools in NZ. (I hope I am making sense?)

It must be very frustrating for parents like you, who have had children going from UK’s better schools and your children are now not receiving the same standard of education in NZ.

I really think this issue can genuinely be seen from both sides, depending on where you started from in the beginning. :)

[katandbob]

....how old are yours again Dinny....words like house etc are pretty basic!

so yes it would set ours back if they were already onto words like apartment....

I hope you get a good balance, through either the tutor or changing schools.

I hope that the colleges and uni's are a bit more forward thinking!....I better start researching!

(although our schools stopped spelling tests and stuff when they were in secondary, personally I wish they'd carried on as 2 out of mine are terrible! I got a text where my 17yr old asked for his 'cloths' to be washed :( )

the youngest always had no trouble with spelling...he'd learn a word and that was it.

good luck

Kat :)

[Diny]

Nicola - I totally understand where you are coming from, the discussion on education will differ from family to family, and when all is said and done, I will repeat that there is alot we like about the schooling over here.

If only we could get over this big issue (for us) regarding them 'falling behind' all would be good.

A very dear friend of mine gave me some very good advice. She said 'hold your breath and hope for the best - it will come good in the end'. Although that may sound abit flippant to some, taken in the right context she is SO right. I have huge admiration and respect for her - those words help alot.

Kat - Fergie is 10 and Henry is almost 9.

Diny

[firstkings]

Hi,

We're in the process of heading over around October time (hopefully!). We have 4 little ones (9,7,4,2) and so I'm following this thread with interest. I'm a secondary school teacher (Physics in fact!).

One thing you said Diny was that boys say "they hardly do any work". Do they do more sport, drama, artwork etc instead of formal literacy and numeracy (english and maths to us of the old school!).

We will probably homeschool for a short while until the summer hols and we find a place to live, but I am wondering if we need to extend that to when they are in school itself.

Remeber "education is what remains, when all that we have learned from school has been forgotten" (adapted form Albert Einstein according to one website!).

Cheers

David and clan

[katandbob]

Kat - Fergie is 10 and Henry is almost 9.

Diny

ah...memories...Just scanning in pics of my lot at that age (such sweethearts!)

blog page forming in head :nice1

as I always catch myself saying to Rachel, enjoy every minute with them, they grow up in a blink of an eye (and make you a granny! :D )

hope to see you in June Diny....Kat

[Diny]

Hi,


One thing you said Diny was that boys say "they hardly do any work". Do they do more sport, drama, artwork etc instead of formal literacy and numeracy (english and maths to us of the old school!).


David and clan

Yeah that's it, not so much drama but lots of kicking balls around, drawing pictures and they watch an alarming amount of videos !!!!

Diny

[Carol]

We have written complaints to our principal if we even dare to put a video on during a wet lunchbreak!!! :roll





Amazing the difference between schools.....it never ceases to amaze me actually!


Good day today - I've been on an ICT course all day - god I've worked hard!
Spelling is a funny area isn't it?

I attended an amazing course during the holidays last year on writing and spelling ability given by one "Harry Hood" a NZ guru of literacy.
THese words have stayed with me all year - and I'm now putting it into practice.

"If I asked you to learn ten telephone numbers of your local area this week could you do it? If you learned them all week - and I tested you on them on Friday how many would you get right? All of them? Probably.
Then next week - I will ask you to do the same thing.
ten new numbers all to be memorised - and I will test you on them. COuld you do it? Probably.
Then the next week - ten more.
Then the next week ten more.
And so on.

Now tell me - in five weeks time - if you havent used any of those numbers since I tested you last - how many do you think you will remember?

I'm guessing perhaps one or two if you are lucky.
And so it is with spelling......

The words kids need to learnare:
Their essential word lists first and foremost.
(Can be found in the back of a "Spellwrite" available at most good book shops)
Then commonly used words - days of the week, months, seasons, local area names, etc etc
Then .......
Words they are using in their writing but getting wrong.
Then
once they are on the ladder of success
Vocabulary skills kick in.
Similes, metaphors, homonyms, antonyms etc etc
Expanding their ability widthways instead of upwards.
Is there really any point in learning the word archipelago if you are never going to use it in your entire life?
ANd even if you are - you could probably spell check it or look it up.

What is the point in learning 10 phone numbers you will never use again?
However I can name at least ten numbers that I SHOULD be able to remember just to make my life easier.....eg the doctors surgery, the local computer fixer man and my husbands cell phone number which I STILL cant remember!

The more important skill - is spotting probable errors and being able to use a dictionary and thesaurus with skill and accuracy."

Ahhh yes - it's all true.
The relief teacher I had today was asked (by me because I detest doing it!) to give my class a spelling graded test that reveals their "spelling age"
Load of bull if you ask me - it is merely a device by which I can give numbers to my principal and then they are given to the BOT.

My goal for my entire class this year is this:
Find the words you can't spell.
Recognise you need to learn them and do it.
Work out your % of errors at the start of the year. Each term this needs to decrease.
Once you are down to (approx) 2% errors start to extend your vocabulary.
Learn some new words related to ones you already know and try to include them in your writing next time...
This is their personal goal. It is student centred and no-one elses business.


Now - work completed - some important questions to ask.
:cheers
Lemon with your Gin and tonic Diny pet?
;) :D

[Diny]

Now - work completed - some important questions to ask.
:cheers
Lemon with your Gin and tonic Diny pet?
;) :D


HELL YEAH !!!!!!!

Diny x

[katandbob]

Carol very wise words....funny I was sat here last night on the forum when I heard my son say to his gaming pals that he'd just got (now dont laugh at the spelling!).... Eviscerated! (ok I spell checked it! :o ) now I know what it means and so does Jason and I asked why he didnt say that he'd been sliced and diced or some slang term......he said the word had stuck after reading it in a book at school!....well I never ;)

[K&CS]

Our kids have only just completed their first week in an NZ school, so it's difficult to say too much. I can really sympathise with Jo B, cos it has made me feel quite homesick too - probably more because of all the friends from their old school we've all left behind. Also, Bex's teacher had just got back from teaching in the UK for a year and was slagging off the system there saying how much better NZ was - that really got my back up!!

I've been shocked at the amount of homework they have - they used to have homework in the UK but it wasn't as regimented as this. However, like others have said, the spellings were so easy!!

Another thing I don't understand is the different ages in their classes. Rebecca was 6 last October, which I thought would make her a young Year 2 and Emma was 8 last November which makes her a young Year 4. They are both in mixed groups (ie Year 1/Year 2 and Year 3/Year 4). However Emma received a party invitation from someone in her class today who is about to turn 7 - surely that would make her a year 2 and not a year 3/4!? They are both the eldest in their respective classes and tower above everyone else!

Another strange thing is that when I go to collect them, there are no other mothers milling around - where do they go? I feel a right dickhead standing alone outside their classes waiting for them!

I suppose the main thing is that the girls are happy! It'll be interesting to see how I feel in 6 months time!

Kate

[Diny]

. Also, Bex's teacher had just got back from teaching in the UK for a year and was slagging off the system there saying how much better NZ was - that really got my back up!!



Ha !!! That would get my back up too - IMHO - and I repeat IMHO that's just bulls**t.

Diny

[sizzlingbadger]

K&CS ... Regards to meeting your girls at the classroom, it seems at my eldest school from year 2/3 onwards they all walk home by themselves or their parents sit in the cars waiting for them :D My eldest has just turned five and already I have to now drop him off across the road from the school. Still pick him up at the classroom door though only just :)

A friend of mine has her daughter in Year 2 already, she's 5 turning 6 in July. It seems that if they excel at a certain subject then they can move up a year or if they're not so good at something move down a year.

[wanderingoregonian]

Carol loved your comments about spelling. Of all the things that stuck in my mine from my childhood education was how much I HATED spelling. I did well in every aspect of school except the spelling tests. It was hard and frustrating, and I felt like I was stupid. Other student who I suspected didn't know how to use the words, were nailing the tests (probably great for their self esteem - which was one reason I tried to feed myself for why I had to suffer through the tests, that at least it helped some kids feel good about themselves). I knew my teacher could figure out what I was spelling - so my writing was understood - and I also understood that at age 9 no one was going to judge me poorly if I spelled provocation with a wrong vowel. Then I started to cop this attitude that spelling didn't matter at all. My goal was to write an essay that so blew away the teacher that even once I was graded down for all my spelling errors I still got an A- Finally in grad school I grew up a little, and did exactly what Carol is talking about - wrote out a list of words I use frequently in my field and memorized those... and became very adept with word checkers and online dictionaries:)

It wasn't until I became a speech therapist and I would be doing work on phonemic awareness with kids (hearing different sounds, separating them, blending them together) that I realized that I had a bit of an auditory processing problem. I still don't understand when my parents spell in front of me. And when I would give my students a word to parse by sounds.. if there were more than 4 words I wasn't 100% if they got it write unless I looked at my cheat sheets. My head just doesn't work that way I guess :o

[marcia]

I can't comment on the Nz education system at the moment, but I have quite a lot of views on the Uk system.

Both Kev and myself consider ourselves quite 'bright' after all he's been successfully self employed for the last eleven years, earning enough money to clear our mortgage over five years, and put some in the bank. I do all the book work, vat returns and invoicing. Kev has never had to advertise, work has always come to him, which to me speaks volumes, he works hard and always does a good job.

What all this is leading to is the fact that when we were at school, we weren't pushed as much as todays kids. Just looking at my elder two when they were still in the infants, year 1, they were being pushed to do joined up handwriting! At 6 years old, I was playing shops and in the sand pit, painting pictures and maybe starting to learn to read a little bit. I don't remember having to learn long multiplication/division at 9 years old, that didn't come till high school.
In the last holiday my eight year old had to do research into all the leaders of world war 2 and write a project about it????? BORING!!! At the end of the day, yes they need to know the history of the world but come on just give them the basics at this age, too much for them to take in!! (And it took me hours to do the project too!! :laugh )
Personally I feel they push our kids far too much, it's all tied up with having to cover certain areas of the curriculum every week, and hitting SATS targets.

Oh and spellings - don't get me on that one, Ayrton once came home with a list of spellings like Greenpeace, Rainbow warrior, - get real - ok they must have been doing a topic about it, but those are the types of words you'd look up in a dictonary if you needed to, not your everyday list. Give them the basic words and then teach them to use a dictonary, and half of them use the computers these days and just do a spellcheck anyway!!!

When we get to NZ I don't want my kids to go backwards, but maybe a slowing down, and less pushy education, giving them time to absorb and explore what they are learning, and have fun, would be fine by me.

Everyone is different and has varying expectations for their children, i just want mine to be happy and have a good education, coming out with a positive attitude to learning, a sound knowledge of maths and literacy, and an understanding of the world in general.

[willsken]

(And it took me hours to do the project too!! :laugh )


:laugh Know the feeling welll!

[Diny]

When we get to NZ I don't want my kids to go backwards, but maybe a slowing down, and less pushy education, giving them time to absorb and explore what they are learning, and have fun, would be fine by me.

.

I agree whole heartedly with your post Marcia, especially the above comment.

I think the thing that has really shocked us is the extent our kids have 'slowed down' and sadly 'gone backwards'. I've said on many occasions that there's a huge amount of positive 'features' to NZ education and I will be the first to sing their praises.

I too was full of enthusiasm and gusto about the education my boys would be getting when we got here, I too thought that a less pushy, more laid back approach to learning would be beneficial. Sadly in reality we're left feeling frustrated and disappointed.

There's a fine line between less pushy and not enough.

Diny

[marcia]

Not a snotty post Diny!!! :D

Do you feel as if things have changed for the boys since they changed teachers this year? I know they are only a few weeks in, but have you noticed a difference. I know you really weren't happy with the teacher last year, and said other parents were unhappy too. Maybe that particular teacher had a lot to do with all the DVD watching?

We'll just have to wait and see how it is for ours when we arrive! Maybe Jo could take up home-tutoring our brood full time!! :confused: For a fee of course!!

[Diny]

Things haven't really changed much at all. Obviously their new teachers have their own individual 'methods' but the overall result is pretty much the same.

This is so difficult for me, I know it seems like I'm education bashing all the time. There really are so many good points about the education system over here, but to see my kids take such a monumental step backwards is so sad. They need constant 'pushing' (and I'm very aware that that is the wrong word but I can't think of a more appropriate one at the moment) to remain average. The more casual, laid back approach which is the 'norm' over here isn't beneficial to my kids. Obviously had they been educated in NZ from day 1 then there would be no issue, but having experienced education here and the UK I am fully aware of the overwhelming differences.

Now I just know I'm going to get shot from all sides when I say this so I apologise in advance, but it seems to us that school kids over here (and I can only comment on junior kids) - are told that they are 'awesome' for achieving mediocre results. Of course if a child maintains good average marks that is to be celebrated, but if the pupil then goes on to achieve higher marks - THAT is what should be classed as awesome. I just don't think it's a particularly good idea to instill in anybody (whatever the age) that they are 'awesome, fantastic, exceptional' etc for being average. Why should anybody ever strive for the next level if they're told that by being average they're 'awesome'? That makes me sound like a hard bitch I know. Maybe I'm wrong for not agreeing with this overwhelming desire to celebrate mediocrity. Maybe if all of us were having this conversation face to face I could find a better way of expressing myself. Typed words on a forum can come across as antagonistic and insulting - please understand that is NOT my intention.

I just know that has come out all wrong and sounds far more harsh than I mean it to.

I think the issue for us is that our boys are 're-doing' work they did many terms ago so they are finding the work very easy, that has a knock on effect which causes laxity and boredom - hence they seem to have almost 'stagnated'.

Looking at it from this angle then I guess that in time things will level themselves out and all will be well. However that doesn't alter the fact that 'for our boys' they are not as 'advanced' as they would have been back in the UK. I appreciate the fact that this 'approach' to education has alot of merits - if only somebody could convince me that a monumental slide in my boys 'academic standards' was something to be happy about then I guess I wouldn't spend so much time worrying about it.

I really do feel like I've done this subject to death now. I shall leave it alone and hope for the best. I will end by apologising to anybody who may be offended by any of my comments, and I will repeat 2 things. 1: There are alot of aspects regarding my boys education that delight us. 2: All of my postings are our own findings and opinions, we tell it how it is for OUR boys. You all need to experience it yourselves and allow your own children to adapt. By no means are we suggesting that our experiences are set in stone for everybody.

Diny

[marcia]

Do you think that because children start school in NZ later than the Uk, that this could make it appear our kids are in front? Just a thought, they've had an extra year to what they have in NZ already?

[tottefan]

But most kids in the UK are not advanced educationally! Believe me when I say that so many kids in the UK leave primary school not being able to read and do basic arithmetic. Honestly, if you saw the standard of education in even some of the better schools in the UK, you'd be shocked. It simply isn't true that the majority of UK primary schools concentrate on English and maths. Most don't - I can never remember having English and maths lessons before the age of 12 and I went to good schools!!!! :confused:

I'm at University at the moment, and let's just say that even most of the brainy British students don't know how to punctuate or spell (myself included :D ). It simply isn't taught in Uk schools anymore. Most don't know the times tables either. :uhoh Then, of course, you have the rising pass rate which is designed to make everyone pass. :(

Education overseas is different. I've heard that, up until the age of about 14, French and Italian students are a few years behind British students. They still manage to finish ahead of British students in just about every International comparison imaginable, though. NZ also finishes high in International literacy and numeracy tests for school leavers - 2nd in the Industrialised world, if I remember correctly.


Tottefan.

[Diny]

I can never remember having English and maths lessons before the age of 12 and I went to good schools!!!! :confused:



Sorry - but if the school you went to didn't teach any maths or English before the age of 12 I would make so bold as to suggest they were NOT 'good schools'.

Like I've suggested to you before Tottefan, when you are here and your children are 'living it' you 'may' think slightly differently.

And there's me still ranting when I said I'd finished on this subject.

Diny

[Carol]

I guess unless we have all been in every school in the UK or every school in NZ we can't REALLY make sweeping statements about "the state of NZ education" or anywhere else for that matter.


There is no doubt in my mind that there are "good schools" here in NZ just as there will be "good schools" in the UK

In fact - I would be so bold as to say I know this for certain because I work in one here and I visited one in the UK when I was there on holiday last year.
Equally so - there will be appalling ones in both places.

And - just to add to the equation - what one parent sees as a good school - another sees as appalling.

Honestly speaking - I am very very glad we came here for our kids' education.
And.....I am also very proud of my best friend's kids (in the UK) who have all done really well at school and have places at UNi and are well rounded polite kids.

I have said this before many times - it is VITALLY important when you are choosing a school for your kids here thatyou visit - more than once - and get a "feel" for the school.
By all means ask around - but views CAN be polarised. So don't just ask one person.

PLEASE....don't choose a school by looking at their web page or from the ERO report.
And.... (sorry everyone still not living here) DONT choose a school from the other side of the world.

We made the biggest mistake doing just that - going off a recommendation of a friend who had put their kid in a school in Whitby.
It was OK - but simply wasn't our choice once we got here.

Another very good reason to rent first and buy later if you have kids in your equation of settlement.

:nice1

Carol

[tottefan]

Exactly my point Carol. I wasn't saying that the NZ education is better or superior to the Uk. I was just saying that the UK system is deeply flawed. When roughly 50% of school leaver leave Secondary school not being able to read or add up properly there is clearly something wrong with the system!

As for the schools I went to being good schools, this was evident from their examination results. It doesn't mean that the teaching was great, though, as they were selective and situated in wealthy areas. Admittedly, we didn't have the numeracy or literacy hour back then, and I suppose the fact that the government felt them necessary tells its own story.


Tottefan.

[StevieD]

I quote from a thread on Jan's scrapbooking forum:-


my son has just come in from school shaking and thoroughly upset,he's 9 and we've just started to let him walk the short distance from school to our house on his own,we live in a small village and school is not far away,I go to school to collect his younger sister and he comes out 15minutes after her.

one of the senior schools bus drops off about 10 pupils in the village about the same time ds comes out of school and until today there have never been any problems but apprently 3 girls surrounded him while he was walking home and told him to give them his bag to see if there was any money in it and tld them they wanted all the money he has. He doesn't have any money as I pay for everything dinners,tuck etc at the beginning of the week as bless him left to him he'll have lost it by the time he arrives at school.
They tried pulling his bag from his back and he just ran until he got home. I'm so upset as its completely shattered his confidence,he doesn't want to go to school on monday and never wants to walk home without me again.
I just can't believe children are so cruel,I got myself so wound up about the fact that these girls could pick on my little boy so dh has just gone up to our school to see if they can atleast report it to the senior school.
My son is such a happy little boy who is always smiling that I'd hate for this incident to upset him. I know it's probably trivial to alot of things going on but it's really upset me and I just needed to rant......................
sorry

Maybe that's why we need to collect our kids from school in the UK :mad:

Regarding the "praise" being given to kids, isn't that the point Diny? Better to praise kids than give none at all. As for "awesome" that is a US saying that grates on my nerves and has been rightly pointed out on another thread in this forum.
It is all too often the "bad" kids that get all plaudits up here, all the rewards, which sends out the message to the good kids that it is ok to be like that. There are so many differences, but how can kids aspire to anything, if they make some achievement in school, that may not seem much to you or me, but is a massive achievement for them, if they don't get any recognition for it?? Confidence is such a huge requirement in anything we do in life.

I know where you are coming from. It is so difficult not to compare, a bit like converting $-£ when shopping etc. But the system works for NZ, and education is about WANTING to learn, and not being FORCED to learn, which in my book caused the shutters to come up very very quickly.

I also feel that kids start school too early. No wonder students are burnt out by the time they get to 14. There are so so many variable in all of this, comparisons can be complicated. Needless to say there is good and bad everywhere,

[firstkings]

Diny,

You are right about OVERpraise. It does nobody any good in the long run. Praise is good when used correctly, but here is a trend (here in the UK) to tell people they are "awesome" for just doing normal things. Devaluation of the language, they call it!

It must be worrying to see the boys going backwards, but as a teacher in a top 400 secondary school here in the UK, I am still doing the 7 times table with many of my sixth-formers (Physics/Maths students!) and correcting their spelling in many, many areas. We progress at a terrific rate here, but manytimes, I feel we skim over matters far too quickly, trying to hit targets and make sure that statistics look good for the school.

If the boys become demotivated by covering old/easy material, then that is a problem (Can they be put up a year, as here in the UK?), otherwise as a previous post said, they should do very well in the long run as the system in NZ is quite highly regarded internationally.

On a separate note, in a good junior school, you possibly wouldn't remember English and Maths lessons, as these would be covered as an integral part of Geography/History/Science etc projects. Hard to do in the current climate.

As you say there is no perfect system.

"Education is about integrity, honesty and a zest for life. Schools do the rest"

Cheers

David

[Carol]

I'm not sure there is any point in "overpraising" kids.
THey are much more aware than we give them credit for - of their achievements and they ALL know "where they sit" in their class.
No matter what you name the reading spelling or maths groups they still know where they are at.

Good constructive feedback is essential to further learning.
But I would never ever in a million years start it off with a negative statement.


I am constantly encouraged by the enthusiasm bubbling in my class.
Bored kids?
No way.
They are even in the classroom before 9am sat working!!!
(My son reckons I've brainwashed them all!!)
Of course there are some who - for whatever reason (and there ALWAYS is one!!!) have behaviour issues which lead ultimately to lack of motivation etc but overall - they are all very keen to go the next step.

How long has the numeracy hour and literacy hour been going in the UK now?
It must be getting on for 8 years?
And yet there are still kids who haven't learnt the basics coming through primary schools?

Doesn't sound quite right to me......

[Carol]

I feel we skim over matters far too quickly, trying to hit targets and make sure that statistics look good for the school.




Oh this happens here too David!!!

You only have to read the "outstanding results" of many a private school to see this.
Unfortunately - their choice of children who are included in their "statistics" are not always ......um......their full quota.
Assume from that what you will.

Thank god we don't have league tables here ........yet.

[Simon & Emily]

...THey are much more aware than we give them credit for - of their achievements and they ALL know "where they sit" in their class.
No matter what you name the reading spelling or maths groups they still know where they are at.


Oh how true this is. Our son is currently in class 1, and is the youngest by some months. He is, however, fully aware that people in his class, and even some of the younger reception children, are 'above' him in the reading books and spelling words. The teacher even apologised for this, as though it would upset him to know this, but he accepts it as just 'one of those things' - he is not very good at reading and writing, but give him a screwdriver or something to make and he's there at the front of the queue. They are all fully aware of all the other children's abilities, and know who is good at what. He is also aware that there is one older child who is 'special needs' as he is unable to read or write at all; no particular comments were made, other than 'he isn't as good at it as me, and needs extra help, even though he's one of the oldest in class'.

Dine - or anyone else :nice1 - can you say what you like about the NZ system? Both our children are so young, that they will be as good as starting from scratch there, so will not have a starting position to slide back from!!

Thanks,

Emily

[boonkien]

I think the teaching professional is the same in every country --- overworked teachers, moderate pay and tonnes of non-teaching duties!!! My wife was a teacher before she decided to be SAHM. It is ironical that when you enter the profession and end up doing a lot of other things that doesn't concern it like collecting fees. I believe most of you will be appalled to know -- class ration in Singapore on the average is 40 students to one teacher and each teacher is teaching about 8-10 classes. Imagine the names you have to remember and the tonnes of marking to do.

[wilson182]

I agree that starting at 5 is more preferable to the UK system. I feel that Emily was totally ready to start school, and also (as Carol said) it was a very special day. I may be wrong, but surely it must be easier for teachers to get to know the children also. Just one or two at a time rather than 30 in one go?? As a result, Emily LOVES school.

[StevieD]

he is not very good at reading and writing, but give him a screwdriver or something to make and he's there at the front of the queue

Simon and Emily - nothing wrong with that, good motor skills! Engineering, inquisitive mind. Reading and writing are skills that are developed - don't worry unless they are dyslexic, it comes good.

And Carol, are you suggesting that there are schools who 'massage' figures to make themselves look good?! :eek: I am so shocked :laugh

Thanks for your pm by the way :nice1