[doctor]

there were previous posts on canada vs NZ vs US etc.
Once again I would like to bring this up.
Many say that they did consider Canada and NZ and finally decided NZ ; factors that made them not to opt for canada are extreme winters and slow immigration process. Are these the only reasons? Has anyone on this forum serioulsy contemplated the option of moving to Canada?

[jess]

Hi doctor. We looked at Canada first, because it was a less drastic move -- still able to get 'home' to family and friends on a train. The cold was one factor for us. The other was size - Canada's huge, and though their population is much smaller than the US, it's still a lot more people than NZ. I liked the small scale of NZ (That said, I know a Kiwi who moved to NYC to get far away from small, so it's all in what you're looking for). We just weren't excited about Canada.

Also, NZ gave us the bonus points that got us in, because I have a degree in theatre and work for a theatre. I figure any country actively looking for people in the creative industries is a rarity and pretty cool. :D

J

[jess]

Well this doesn't help either, as far as my own opinion goes...

http://media.msnbc.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Sources/sourceReuters.gif (http://www.reuters.com/)Updated: 2:36 p.m. ET March 25, 2006
OFF CANADA’S EAST COAST - Canadian hunters started shooting and clubbing harp seal pups Saturday at the start of an annual hunt that is the focus of a protest by animal rights groups.

:(

[Lukas]

...then with your degree what have you find so far in NZ ?

[Howie]

there were previous posts on canada vs NZ vs US etc.
Once again I would like to bring this up.
Many say that they did consider Canada and NZ and finally decided NZ ; factors that made them not to opt for canada are extreme winters and slow immigration process. Are these the only reasons? Has anyone on this forum serioulsy contemplated the option of moving to Canada?

I'm a Canadian who just moved to NZ. We're here because we wanted an adventure, not because we think it's better. I know nothing about the immigration process, but weather-wise, remember that Canada's a big place. The climate varies a great deal from place to place, and some people can adapt better to new climates than others. Vancouver and Victoria have very similar climates to the UK, I believe.

Chris

[Al_S]

One can find a lot of things they are looking for in NZ(scenery,weather,lower population, etc.) on the West Coast (e.g. Vancouver Islands). Don't know much about NZ at all but reading posts from those who are there makes it clear that NZ might not have the same variety as far as job opportunities go. It also appears that our medicare is still somewhat superior to other countries (but then I could be wrong). As for the slower immigration process, well no place controlled by bureaucrats runs efficiently. But I believe it is worth a consideration, just like NZ is.

[alis]

Well, you may find some Canada born guys who enjoy their life in Canada, simply because they have born there, but from immigrants perspective, thins are very different.

I have been there. I do not recomment it for immigration at all for the following reasons,

1- Immigration process is unaccepably long. It sometimes takes up to 5 years (Depending on where your application would be sent). Mine through london took near three years.
It is not just the issue of the pain of waiting. Your life would change alot during this several years and you will finally give up, because usually people find better opportunities in their life, as grove

2- After you arrive there , you are absolute ZERO. They do not recognise qualifications gained outside North America. You need to prove that the poems that you had in you nursery is equal as in Canada. I have a Master with distinction from UK,Cardiff. They did not accepted this and asked me to repeat my Master before entering Phd. My wife is a dentist , she needs to spend 150,000 $ to attend last two years of school in canada, just to receive permission to attend exams !!!!!
It is a overregulated country which composes new laws every day just to make immigrants life harder and composes new barriers to prevent immigrants become a compatetor for locals
3- Dont need to say a word about job market. Even if you are a consultant in your country, you need to have Canadian work experience in order to receive job offer. So finding your first job is a disaster. Add the silly registration and qualification assesments to this

4- Life is very stressful. Even when you find a job, you need to work like a horse if you dont want to lay off. Believe me, you will find some Asian colleges in your place which start their job from 8Am and finish 10 PM, without expecting extra hours pay, just to secure their position

5- Blody cold. Dont say me it is not important. When you experience -45 centigrade your mind would be changed, specially when it lasts for several months

Not enough ? I will write more latter

[Toronto_Kiwi]

I'm a dual citizen of Canada and New Zealand and my husband is just about to accept a job offer in Auckland. I was born in Canada and I grew up on the warmer west (wet) coast but now live in the colder, more industrial centre.
I support the points that alis made regarding an immigrant's negative experience of Canada: the Canadian bureaucrats have a strangely inconsistent immigration policy. Their points system only allows the most highly educated applicants but legislation bars these immigrants from practicing their professions. My mother encountered a similar situation as an architect who trained in Taiwan and then immigrated to Canada: she worked at Canada Post as a clerk for 20 years.
Also it is cold here. I don't mind so much but my husband grew up in Hong Kong and his body never adjusted to the freezing winters. His skin cracks and bleeds from December through March. We haven't found a moisturizer that can prevent this. Pretty nasty.

[xanctus]

This is very interesting story. My sister who immigrated to Canada found the procedure and experience rather fun and easy. We were thinking of going to Canada at first since we have relative there. However, the idea of far away from home does make a difference. I have been to Toronto 2x already and like the city a lot! I found it one of the cleanest big city in North America. (again I am just visiting so not knowing the bad areas maybe hehehe). Also I didn't know about the regulation of getting PR is longer than NZ, cause my sis' experience was not that long a year or so.
Again, I am just sharing things I know...not contradicting anyone here, cause clearly I have limited knowledge about the migrating there.

[Toronto_Kiwi]

Xantus - I'm glad to hear your sister had a pleasant experience immigrating to Canada. Certainly not all immigrants suffer the same trials. I went to an international high school in Vancouver Island though, and a lot of my friends chose to immigrate after attending university in Canada. These are young people who had spent the last 8 years in Canada and spoke perfect English but it STILL took 2 or 3 years after graduation for them to get enough points for immigration: it made it tough to find work while they were waiting.
I can't speak to the relative difficulty of immigrating to Canada vs New Zealand.
Toronto is for the most part a great city - mostly because of the ethnic diversity of its neighbourhoods. Glad to hear you found it clean! Vancouver is beautiful and Montreal is a cultural mecca.

[Lukas]

...Montreal cultural Mecca...then what about Paris, Rome, Madrid, London etc...my friends...as far as culture is concerned there is nothing comparable with Europe.

[xanctus]

Lukas...off course Europe is central of Cultural Mecca. However, Vancouver I believe can offer those things at some extend. Every place can offer that...it just a matter of different perspective of each individuals. I am sure, Asian cultural places can be something to consider also.

[Lukas]

Of course, you are right...what I wanted o say is that no one chose Canada, NZ or Australia as destinations of immigration for the extent of their cultural life...

[Debbie P.]

To be honest, I would dispute the idea that anywhere is THE cultural mecca.
I've just returned from an eye-opening trip in North India, where I saw the most incredible architecture in palaces that were built in the 13th and 14th centuries first by the Hindus and later by the Muslim invaders. They were pretty advanced compared to architecture in Europe at the same time.

The stories, myths, music were culturally rich. Europe is my place of origin, so I prefer European culture, but talking to locals in Delhi made me realise that although they're quite Westernised and well-educated (for a start, their English put me to shame, and many of them speak at least 4 or more languages), and are interested in European culture, they do not necessarily think it's superior to their's.

A bit of an eye-opener for me because, to be honest, I'd always automatically assumed that if you wanted cultural experiences, you went to Europe!

Debbie

[Toronto_Kiwi]

...Montreal cultural Mecca...then what about Paris, Rome, Madrid, London etc...my friends...as far as culture is concerned there is nothing comparable with Europe.
I love all of those cities and I've visited most of them and also Athens, Istanbul, Damascus, Jerusalem and Tokyo. The attitude of Montrealers kind of reminds me of people in Jerusalem: they're going about their business but always looking out for artistic & cultural events. A friend of mine just wandered into a 'store' called ScentWorks on the Plateau of Montreal and discovered that it wasn't selling anything: it was a two-week performance art installation.
In some of the most renowned European cultural centres you have to wait 2 or 3 hours in line amongst hordes of tourists to get into museums and galleries. In Montreal, along with many other international cities where the residents are devoted to the arts, you'll stumble into interesting cultural activities by accident.

[Lukas]

...What can I say...I never ben to Montreal...but from this point of view the NZ big cities are rather disapointing...

[Toronto_Kiwi]

...What can I say...I never ben to Montreal...but from this point of view the NZ big cities are rather disapointing...
Too bad that you're feeling uninspired. Go watch Andy Goldsworthy's Rivers & Tides (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0307385/) on DVD. You'll want to start creating art all around you out of leaves and twigs and stones.
Seriously - it's an amazing documentary.

[Lukas]

...there is an old Romanian saying..." with one flower you won't make the Spring "...I am not talking about outstanding isolated events but about the cultural atmosphere in general.

[Al_S]

You got a point there Debbie P., you would not want to start comparing things at historical level; Canada is a very young country. Places like India have been there for long long time and one does feel kind of "empty" here in Canada if the focus is strictly on looking for rich cultural heritage. Besides, Canada can be damn cold place for most people even if there are things here that satisfy your cultural hunger (and this is from someone who is fiercely Canadian!) :)

[Debbie P.]

You got a point there Debbie P., you would not want to start comparing things at historical level; Canada is a very young country. Places like India have been there for long long time and one does feel kind of "empty" here in Canada if the focus is strictly on looking for rich cultural heritage. Besides, Canada can be damn cold place for most people even if there are things here that satisfy your cultural hunger (and this is from someone who is fiercely Canadian!) :)

But Al, you're much less likely to get Delhi belly in Canada!!! I have never felt so ill...

I'm going to Canada in August (for work though, boo) - what sort of weather should I expect in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia? I'm assuming they're kind of '4 seasons in one day' places, so I should take my entire wardrobe?

Debbie

[Howie]

I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience in Canada. You make some very valid points, but I was very surprised by some of your comments. I know nothing about the immigration process itself, but I wanted to respond to some of your other points.

Well, you may find some Canada born guys who enjoy their life in Canada, simply because they have born there, but from immigrants perspective, thins are very different.

Well, I'm a Canada born guy and inherently biased, but I know many, many immigrants who also enjoy their lives in Canada very much. I also know a few who don't.

2- After you arrive there , you are absolute ZERO. They do not recognise qualifications gained outside North America. You need to prove that the poems that you had in you nursery is equal as in Canada. I have a Master with distinction from UK,Cardiff. They did not accepted this and asked me to repeat my Master before entering Phd. My wife is a dentist , she needs to spend 150,000 $ to attend last two years of school in canada, just to receive permission to attend exams !!!!!
It is a overregulated country which composes new laws every day just to make immigrants life harder and composes new barriers to prevent immigrants become a compatetor for locals

The professions are strictly regulated in Canada. If you want to practise as a doctor, lawyer, engineer, architect, etc. you will have to prove that you are qualified to do so. It is entirely proper that this is so, but Canada does have a large problem (recognized and debated at length publicly) with recognizing overseas qualifications for these professions. You really need to do your homework first so that you don't get surprised if you're a dentist or an engineer. That said, I know engineers practising in Canada from all over the world (I'm an engineer) and it certainly can be done.

This isn't an issue for most jobs, just the few professions that are regulated.

It is certainly unfair to suggest that laws are created to make it more difficult for immigrants and save the jobs for Canadians. Canada values its immigrants. Our birth rate is below the replacement level, and we require immigration. We often have significant shortages in skilled labour, and the Canadian government spends millions trying to attract skilled immigrants.

There may be laws that make it difficult for immigrants to get their qualifications recognized, but they aren't designed to protect Canadian jobs, they're designed to ensure that qualified people are doing things like designing bridges and transplanting hearts. Hopefully the laws will change over time to make it easier for suitably qualified professionals to practice in Canada.

3- Dont need to say a word about job market. Even if you are a consultant in your country, you need to have Canadian work experience in order to receive job offer. So finding your first job is a disaster. Add the silly registration and qualification assesments to this

I personally know many immigrants who managed to find professional work when they moved to Canada. I can't speak to the relative difficulty, though.

4- Life is very stressful. Even when you find a job, you need to work like a horse if you dont want to lay off. Believe me, you will find some Asian colleges in your place which start their job from 8Am and finish 10 PM, without expecting extra hours pay, just to secure their position

This statement was a complete shock to me. Canadians are pretty laid back in the workplace in my experience. Far more so than in the US, for example. The work-life balance is seen to be very important, and extensive overtime isn't that common. There are always exceptions, of course, but it certainly isn't the norm.

Canada is in the middle of a huge economic boom with low unemployment. Lay offs aren't that common. You may have ended up in a bad situation, but I assure you that it is not the norm.

5- Blody cold. Dont say me it is not important. When you experience -45 centigrade your mind would be changed, specially when it lasts for several months

Yes, some parts of Canada can be very cold in the winter. It's important to do your homework about climate as it varies immensely. It's also important to visit during the winter if you're worried about it.

I lived in Calgary which gets quite cold. I never once stayed home because it was too cold. I was quite happy walking to work at -25C. It helps to dress properly, which is a skill that new immigrants sometimes lack.

We miss the cold and the snow. We'd downhill ski or ice climb when it was warm (0 to -10C) and cross country ski when it got too cold, so we made our own heat. It was great fun. I'd tell you about dog sledding at -30C, but that would sound like too much of a cliche, so forget I mentioned it.

Chris

[Toronto_Kiwi]

There may be laws that make it difficult for immigrants to get their qualifications recognized, but they aren't designed to protect Canadian jobs, they're designed to ensure that qualified people are doing things like designing bridges and transplanting hearts. Hopefully the laws will change over time to make it easier for suitably qualified professionals to practice in Canada.

I personally know many immigrants who managed to find professional work when they moved to Canada. I can't speak to the relative difficulty, though.
Chris
Thought you laid the counter-case out nicely Chris. The current confusion regarding the recognition of overseas qualifications worries a lot of Canadian-born citizens too. I don't think it's 'job-protectionism' for the most part either, just a big policy mess that the professional bodies and Immigration Canada need to sort out.
And yes... snow can be fun.

[Al_S]

Temperatures should be just fine on the East Coast in Aug. I lived in Newfoundland for two years and we still have our second home there. Aug is actually the best time to go; you will see Icebergs, Whales and awesome scenery. All the best to you on your trip.