[remontado]

G'day

I just spoke with a close friend, informing him of my intention to relocate to NZ. He said that several people he knew just recently returned in digust. Apparently, the claim is, that NZ's 'hate' Americans, that the State (govts) make it their business to stay in everyones elses business, and the lifestyle 'police' are out in force. For example, one comment I heard was the there are what amounts to 'smoking police' and a NZ$15,000 fine imposed for smoking in a public place.

Also, each of these people were professionals with advanced degrees and many years experience. None of them (4 I believe) could find employment (i do not know in which fields). Claim was that, as Americans, none could secure an employment offer or the near-term prospect of one allegedly due to their nationality (vs. qualifications).

The report I heard was basically that Americans are not welcome - nor are they likely to be employed - even if they have high-demand skill-set and relevant experience. Unless, that is, one has US$10M+ to bring in (and spend)- in which case, one has their 'a** kissed' night and day!

I can truly understand such an 'attitude' - to some degree - given the 'misguided' (evil) US 'foreign policy' and global behavior. However, the majority of Americans do not agree with current 'policy' - many vehemently so. Personally, I'm at the head of the cue WRT 'shrub hatred' (since before 2000 'selection'). IMO, the US is not 'America' any more and rapidly becoming more of a fascist gestapo Orwellian state daily.

Also, another close friend who has visited NZ repeatedly for professional reasons over the past 10+ years informs me that the financial situation (of the govt.) is extremely bleak and deteriorating rapidly (to which I retorted, "you mean like the US?").

Anyway, the foregoing is basically all directly contrary to most of what I've read on the internet about NZ policy and attitudes.

This post is likely to get a 'reaction' here, which is just what I want.

---------------------
On a different topic, what is the concensus opinion here WRT using an "immigration consulting service" to facilitate entry. If favorable, which firm(s) are legit and most cost effective?

Cheers

[Diny]

Your friend returns with reports of a bleak and deteriorating financial situation. NZ is not a rich country but I'd never describe it's economy quite like that. Putting all issues regarding politics and finances to one side and concentrating on the 'hating Americans' issue.

I think that has to be one of the more sweeping generalisations that appear on this forum. It's just not the case. No matter where you go in the world you're going to come across people who don't like you because of some pre-conceived prejudice which they've had instilled in them for generations.

Admittedly Americans have to bear the reputation of being loud mouthed, plastic, gun smoke and horse s**t, world leaders in the 'invading the east' stakes and every other derogatory handle the rest of the world can think of. Personally I feel this reputation is greatly unjust and I can assure you that millions of other people will think so too. I can honestly say hand on heart that I've not been made aware of any 'anti-Yank' movement over here. If anything, the Japanese and the British are held in far more contempt than the American immigrants.

Whilst on the subject of pre-conceived notions, maybe your friend came over here fueled with the myth that NZers are THE most friendly bunch of homo sapiens ever to inhabit the globe. They're not, you do get some very friendly people here and you get downright hostile people over here too (like anywhere else in the world). When you get faced with an 'anti' comment (aimed soley at your nationality) it can be a cruel blow, it can knock the wind right out of your sales. It's hard to understand why a person can be so 'vindictive' based simply on your nationality. However, on the flip side of the coin, it's wrong for us immigrants to think that all Kiwis hate us (whether we're American, British, Japanes etc) just because we've had the occasional negative reaction from some 'dyed in the wool bigot'.

I hope I've managed to get my point across here, what I really want to say is although your friend may have decided that NZ was not for them, I think (just maybe) that they are amplifying the 'Kiwis hate Americans' theme to justify their return.

Nobody can be adored by everybody (although some truely believe they are). Be prepared for the 'occasional' negative comment but also understand that you'll get a pile of positive comments too. Swings and roundabouts.

Good luck.

Diny

[remontado]

Much thanks, Diny, for your comments. I generally agree with all that you've said. Having traveled extensively in Africa and the Middle East, I have some idea as to how Americans can be 'viewed' (both pro and con).

I'm curious as to your nationality and whether or not you are currenly resident in NZ.

Looking forward to comments/reactions of others here to my intentionally provocative post.

[Oregonkiwi]

I think Diny put it perfectly.

And as for
"the lifestyle 'police' are out in force. For example, one comment I heard was the there are what amounts to 'smoking police' "

:roll oh please... are there no no-smoking laws in the US then?

They sound like the same whiners who demand that all Europeans speak English and then wonder why the French "hate" them. Negativity breeds negativity.

[edsinclair]

Well put! We take ourselves (and our positive or negative mindset) with us wherever we go. We tend to attract to us people that will prove what ever we already believe.

Fortunately...I had been reading this forum for some time before I went to NZ...and from the forum I got the impression that kiwis (in general) liked americans...or at least accepted people based on their personal character and qualities....AND that is exactly what I experienced when I was in NZ for 2 mos. People were very friendly and generous...as I like to think that I am.

I did get a few people ask me, in a very polite way, what I thought of Mr. Bush....and I shared with them how I felt and what most of the people I know feel.

Eleanore

[ChrisK]

A wise person once said "Be who you are and say what you feel cause people who mind don't matter, and people who matter don't mind." - Dr.Seuss

Your friends should just ignore the negative comments. You will have negative people around the world say stuff about anyone, it is unavoidable. With the good comes the bad, Ying & Yang, etc, etc. Thats the great thing about comments, they can be ignored. I learned a long time ago to not let things like that bother me, it is a waste of your time and energy to worry what someone you don't know and don't care about thinks about you - hence the qoute above.

I can understand how Americans could see more of this compared to other nationalities due to the current politcal and global situation but I think most intelligent people see beyond that and don't judge the ordinary American for what some stupid leaders decide to do. As a Canadian of have heard comments as well from other nationalities but you just shrug them off and I have heard Canadians say things of other nationalities, you will get this anywhere around the world, we are human.

As for the smoking police, I hope this wouldn't stop your friends from deciding to move someplace, unless they smoke 3-5 packs a day. I hope I don't hear any Canadian comments for this :) but I am glad to hear about the smoking police. Where I live in Canada, smoking has been banned from public places and it is actually very enjoyable and I hope it stays that way. It is nice to leave a pub and not smell like smoke. I never had a problem with smoke in a public place as I could tolerate it but I think some couldn't. I guess it is nice that the smokers are tolerating the non-smokers now, sorry I am not trying to offend any smokers out there.

I have not been to NZ before and if I do move there it will be without visiting but I have no notion that NZ is a society of totally nice, perfect people living in a totally perfect country. Every place has its problems or negative points and that goes the same with the people that live there. I am sure if I move there I will get some joking comment like I do from a few people in the states, asking if we really do live in igloos and I will just say sure and we don't use cars, we use dog sleds :P

[barryp]

As for employment - I've known a number of people moving to NZ from the USA, and as workers in critical shortage occupations, they've had no difficulty finding work. (The pay was lower than they would have liked, but that's hardly a surprise, nor is it unique to people coming from the USA.) I've even been told, literally, 'They like to hire Americans here.' An attitude of entitlement would make the task more difficult, again regardless of where was one migrating from.

As for the lifestyle police - that might have some validity. There is a definite nanny state tendency in any country that outlaws pseudoepehdrine at retail just because a few small-timers make meth from it. Municipal regulation of pets seems overly invasive to me, especially the expectation that government trespassing to leave poison within reach of dogs is OK if the goal is broader (killing possums). I'm hard pressed to argue that NZ scores worse on that scale than the USA, though; in fact I'd argue the reverse. (The land of the free isn't as free as some like to think, and three years after 11 September the invasive hand of the US federal government is ubiquitous.)

[Diny]

I'm curious as to your nationality and whether or not you are currenly resident in NZ.

Look.

I'm British and I live in the Manawatu, lower north island NZ.

Diny

[StevieD]

What interesting comments, from both sides of the coin. Treat others as you expect to be treated yourself is one golden rule. There are always exceptions to the rule, always will be. Always the narrow minded. Just shrug your shoulders and smile, usually puts them off guard in most cases, and ignore them, whatever they may be saying.

[veronica]

found this interesting reading. I would be very curious as to the personality types of the people mentioned in the first post on this thread. We have a big mixture of different nationalities come through the hostel here and we have had lots of lovely young (and old) american people staying here....BUT we have also had a few very brash, inconsiderate, opinionated ones too. At risk of causing offence sometimes its not peoples nationality (any nationality) that is the problem but their personality.

[Debbie]

Well put! We take ourselves (and our positive or negative mindset) with us wherever we go. We tend to attract to us people that will prove what ever we already believe.



Eleanore

Im not sure of the exact wording of the saying but if goes a little like this;
"I went out to find a friend but found no one, I went out to be a friend and now I know everyone"

Debbie

[zardell]

At risk of causing offence sometimes its not peoples nationality (any nationality) that is the problem but their personality.


Couldn't agree more.

And do you like EVERYBODY (American or otherwise) that you meet? I know I don't.

Surely, you are not going to allow some secondhand information, albeit from close friends, influence your own personal decision ?

I can understand your concern, however, if it bothers you that much, would it be possible for you to go to NZ on a recce/holiday and see for yourself ?

Julie

xx

[zardell]

what is the concensus opinion here WRT using an "immigration consulting service" to facilitate entry. If favorable, which firm(s) are legit and most cost effective?
Cheers

On the assumption that you would be applying under the Skilled Migrant Category, I would strongly advise you to go it alone.

It really is not that complicated and should you have any queries, well, there is always someone on this forum that would be more than willing to advise you.

Once you have filled in and submitted the E.O.I., the rest, in my opinion, is pretty easy. Time consuming, financially costly and fraught with frustration, but easy.

The I.T.A is basically just your E.O.I., but in paper form and you return it to NZIS with all the relevant paperwork to substantiate your claims in your E.O.I.,plus your completed medical reports and police reports etc.

Also, don't forget that all the money you save on the 'immigration consultant' can be better spent towards your new life in NZ.

Just my thoughts........

Julie

xx

[remontado]

Thanks, but, excuse my ignorance, what is I.T.A. ?

Medical reports for Visitor Visa is only X-ray and TB screening - correct?
"Police report" for US is fingerprints and FBI identity check- correct?

[zardell]

Thanks, but, excuse my ignorance, what is I.T.A. ?

Medical reports for Visitor Visa is only X-ray and TB screening - correct?
"Police report" for US is fingerprints and FBI identity check- correct?


I.T.A - Invitation To Apply.....once your E.O.I has been selected from the pool and checked, you'll be sent an I.T.A. Its basically your application for residency.


Can't comment on visitors visa.

Ditto with FBI. In UK, a police report is required. It basically states whether or not a person has a criminal record etc.

I'm sure some of our American 'forumites' can answer your questions better than I.

Julie

xx

[toesonthenose]

Hi remontado,
I hear many "Americans" say that about Hawaii as well. I know military families that will try to never leave the military bases because of the "Hawaiians" who hate "Americans". Same stuff, can't find work, people want their money. People who feel that way are better off staying in the U.S. and not have their realities disturbed by the outside world. Oh, and they should stop blowing up other countries as well.
Aloha, Shaun

[Diny]

. Oh, and they should stop blowing up other countries as well.
Aloha, Shaun

Correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe it's comments like this that put some credence to the original point of discussion.

Diny

[Amerikiwi]

[QUOTE=remontado]G'day

I just spoke with a close friend, informing him of my intention to relocate to NZ. He said that several people he knew just recently returned in digust. Apparently, the claim is, that NZ's 'hate' Americans, that the State (govts) make it their business to stay in everyones elses business, and the lifestyle 'police' are out in force. For example, one comment I heard was the there are what amounts to 'smoking police' and a NZ$15,000 fine imposed for smoking in a public place.

Also, each of these people were professionals with advanced degrees and many years experience. None of them (4 I believe) could find employment (i do not know in which fields). Claim was that, as Americans, none could secure an employment offer or the near-term prospect of one allegedly due to their nationality (vs. qualifications).

The report I heard was basically that Americans are not welcome - nor are they likely to be employed - even if they have high-demand skill-set and relevant experience. Unless, that is, one has US$10M+ to bring in (and spend)- in which case, one has their 'a** kissed' night and day!

I can truly understand such an 'attitude' - to some degree - given the 'misguided' (evil) US 'foreign policy' and global behavior. However, the majority of Americans do not agree with current 'policy' - many vehemently so. Personally, I'm at the head of the cue WRT 'shrub hatred' (since before 2000 'selection'). IMO, the US is not 'America' any more and rapidly becoming more of a fascist gestapo Orwellian state daily.

Also, another close friend who has visited NZ repeatedly for professional reasons over the past 10+ years informs me that the financial situation (of the govt.) is extremely bleak and deteriorating rapidly (to which I retorted, "you mean like the US?").

Anyway, the foregoing is basically all directly contrary to most of what I've read on the internet about NZ policy and attitudes.

This post is likely to get a 'reaction' here, which is just what I want.

I`m an American and have been living in N.Z. (Auckland) for the past 2 years. Sounds like those guys your friend was telling you about were exaggerating and stereotyping the New Zealand people and gov`t. to a great degree. I have a home service business and meet roughly 300 potential customers per year... new face nearly every day, and have never once felt rejected by one customer because I`m an American. If anything, they`re more accepting and trusting than my American customers were while running the same business back in America.
Judging by the comments of those guys, they sound like the pushy and critical/condescending types who give the rest of us Americans a bad reputation. Sure they weren`t from New York or New Jersey, where snappy criticism and endless complaining are a way of life? LOL!!! If they had the qualifications they claimed to have and still couldn`t get a job while here, presuming there was a demand for their skills, then there`s something wrong with THEM, not with New Zealand.
As far as the "smoking police" thing goes, they`ve simply banned smoking in public places (not outside them), just as many places in America have done or are in the process of doing... and it`s the owner of the establishment who could be fined up to $15K, not the smoker himself. I can assure you there are no squads of smoking police raiding the pubs and restaurants here.

[toesonthenose]

Diny,
I just want to make sure that you know that my comment about blowing up stuff (though a present specialty of Americans) was made in jest. On that note, here is a recent photo of Bush doing a "heckuva job" in New Orleans.

[Diny]

Diny,
I just want to make sure that you know that my comment about blowing up stuff (though a present specialty of Americans) was made in jest. On that note, here is a recent photo of Bush doing a "heckuva job" in New Orleans.

Yeah - I kind of guessed it was meant in jest.

[remontado]

thanks all

WRT those American's claiming to be disgusted by NZ - I've never personally meet any one of them but I do trust the referring source implicitly. My guess is (like too many Americans) they are totally self-absorbed, self-inflating - if not categorically delusional - 'types'. They may have also been quintessential representatives of the mindless consuming (moronic) masses and 'found' that they did not have 'sufficient' shopping choices to titillate their purse/cards - or whatever. Without personally knowing, I suspect that they didn't actually solicit employment, or if they remotely did (and indeed had 'credentials'), that their condescending 'holier-than-thou' attitude preceded (exuded from) them.

I do appreciate all the responses - including the remark about US blowing up another countries (tip of proverbial iceberg, IMO). I find it inconceivable that anyone could be any more disgusted with (revolted by) this so-called nation than am I (and have been for many years). Bash the US (admin and polcies) all you wish - and you'll be my friend - but please do not judge me (or anyone else) based upon the deeds of Uber Führer and 'his' cabal of demonic minions.

Cheers

[toesonthenose]

Remontado,
I like your style! You and I must be on some of the same lists the Bushies keep of people to watch! Oh, was that a knock at my door?????????
Shaun

[remontado]

Remontado,
I like your style! You and I must be on some of the same lists the Bushies keep of people to watch! Oh, was that a knock at my door?????????
Shaun

List? Hell!

Probably more like recording keystrokes, et al. I'll find out when renew PP and request VV, no doubt! :eek:

Which reminds me, is use of encryption software (e.g. PGP) 'legal' in NZ ?

[clg]

I would like to add a few things to this based on my experience in wellington. I have not had any problem getting a job with a PhD. I know several americans with MA's and one with a JD all have been able to find jobs fairly easily. Salaries are not what you would earn in the US and you may have to take a step back career wise since you are adjusting to a new envrionment. Still, I knew all of that going in so no real surprises.

As to antiamericanism, bush is not well liked here (or really anywhere in the world) and when I meet kiwis that often comes up. But, I am often much more negative about bush than they are so I have not had any problems there. I think some even like to hear an american bashing him. I can see if you were coming here as a bush supporter who expected to earn the same salary or more as in the US things would be hard. I have found kiwis to be very friendly and open. We have been here about 8 months now and more and more I find myself in the moof camp of 'I love it here' I miss family and mexican food and every once and a while my old salary but my day to day life is much better here.

Chris

[foolsgold99]

Firstly, great thread.



Also, another close friend who has visited NZ repeatedly for professional reasons over the past 10+ years informs me that the financial situation (of the govt.) is extremely bleak and deteriorating rapidly (to which I retorted, "you mean like the US?").



Not true at all, the NZ govt is running large surpules every year, and have cash in the bank. I think the operational surplus this year will be in the region of $6 billion, I know the US Senate recently voted to bump US goverment browing limit to $9 Trillion , check out the actual level here http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ , I guess war ain't cheap..........

In regard to smoking police, there are none, smoking laws in NZ are broadly the same as exist in California and New York.

For employment, if you have skills and can bring value to a business you'll be hired. If you don't you will not. I've been here a year, met plenty of people from all over including americans, never met anyone with a problem

All in it sounds to me as if the people with problems with NZ, are the type of folks that live in the woods with guns, and have problems with the concept of Goverment. They'd be relieved to know there are no black helicopters in NZ though:nice1

[Going2NZ]

Hi all

Well, I've tried to resist but just have to add in my 2 cents...

As an American in Wellington for the last 7 months, employed for the last 3, I have only run into one person who was nasty about my nationality. One additional person was a bit pissy where I work but has since been lovely so I put it down to an off-day. I find that most people are curious about the US and want to talk about politics and lifestlye but are not the least bit judgemental. Like any country, there are lots of misconceptions about life in the US looking in from the outside but I'm happy to explain what I know.

This may sound a bit naive but I am very conscious of representing "Americans" and take every opportunity NOT to be the ugly kind. Actually I think its rather funny but most kiwis think I'm Canadian. I'm an Army brat so I don't have a strong regional accent (although I speak Texan fluently) but mostly I think that I don't fit that stereotype so they assume I'm something other than American.

To be honest, it did take me longer to find a job that I wanted than I expected although I had an offer early on. While I didn't experience any prejudice directly, my immigrant status might have been a factor in getting onto short lists from what I've heard from others since. My boss, who is South African who immigrated 8 years ago, has told me the first job is the toughest one to land and that it was one of the reasons she hired me - so in my case it was a positive.

Politically, that's a whole other thread! And I could go on for hours! But for me it came down to this: the pendulum will swing. In the meantime, I moved to NZ for the positive aspects that I saw here, not to escape the negatives in the US.

On the smoking policy...cool! They just did that in Austin last year and it was soooo nice to go see a local band and NOT come home reeking of smoke. It gets my vote.

[Al_S]

Actually I think its rather funny but most kiwis think I'm Canadian.

I know for fact that many Americans while traveling to Europe carry on as "Canadians" (maple leaf on the backpacks, etc.). Hey, whatever works, its all "aboot" having a good time eh! :nice1

[Oregonkiwi]

But for me it came down to this: the pendulum will swing. In the meantime, I moved to NZ for the positive aspects that I saw here, not to escape the negatives in the US.

This is exactly what my American husband says, that politics is all cyclical and not a good reason to leave the country. Like you, we are moving to New Zealand (mainly to be closer to my family) rather than away from the US. There are lots of things I will miss about America - although I will be very happy not having to deal with American health insurance companies and medical bills any more.

[MB]

We have been here over nine months. My wife Vera has the skills that got us in. She is and sounds American. I am a US citizen (naturalized) but have an at least 95% British accent! She might post later about this topic herself.

She has asked me to say one thing for sure: she is ecstatic with her recently-acquired NZ role as a university senior tutor in dance. She has worked for years to get this level of appointment here and in the US and UK, but it was here that she found the opportunity. Yes, at the moment she is teaching a small amount, but for various reasons it seems extremely likely that she will be starting a much more substantial amount of teaching at the university starting in July.
And good for her - she has worked very, very hard for this foot (or ballet shoe) in the door.

We have rented in Auckland and bought (i.e., lived) in small-town Waikato, and in neither area have we experienced anything but help and friendliness, or at least tolerance. True, we have not made many local friends yet, but that's because a.) we have moved around so much in these first months and b.) we smell.

Actually, to get back to being serious, in our last house (in a small rural town) we were the only pakeha family in a very Maori street, and we were forever being invited over the road to our opposite neighbour for beer and chat. And that, mind you, without us having our sudden presence there make much local sense: the Maori guys were just kind and friendly.

When I discussed this thread with Vera, she said that it's possible that some Americans -- more or less without meaning to be a pain -- can be so used to the ease, cheapness and unblinking confrontational style of the US that they raise hackles in other countries.

Anyway, our experience so far has been positive. We have not been quizzed or insulted at all about US politics, and between us have worked and lived already in a fair cross-section of settings... academia; market research; big city; small town; dance school; pubs; laundromats; libraries; kindies, etc.
We do not have a lot of money and both of us have worked part-time in a patchwork of jobs including a city launderette and a smart Ponsonby company. So plenty of chances to hear hostility in different contexts.

Two other things: one, it might be true that Vera might, because of her European family background and her marriage into a British family, be more attuned than some Americans to what you might call Commonwealth/European cultures and ways.
Secondly, I don't know how typical Seattle people are -- they're a pretty N.European-heritage bunch -- but most of the Americans I know well are from the Northwest and would be very respectful to, and adaptable in, NZ.

[Diny]

True, we have not made many local friends yet, but that's because a.) we have moved around so much in these first months and b.) we smell.

.

Matt - I nearly spat my pinot gris over the keyboard when I read that. Bloody funny !!!!!!

Diny

[Diny]

Actually - this is probably the best thread to relate what happened to me last night.

I went to a local pub with my sister in law and a couple of other friends. Happy to have a night out with my new found 'social circle'. I'm fully aware that alot of people around my age (40+ ish) are in well established 'bands of brothers' - they share alot of history. Bearing this in mind, it can sometimes be (or seem to be) a little daunting joining in - being the new kid on the block - I'm sure you get the picture.

Anyway - there we were, my friends seemed to know all the locals and I was introduced to quite a few of them. Their responses varied from a mere nod in my direction to a full on slap on the back 'how you doing' kind of thing.

After a while another man walked over to us and after a couple of minutes started talking to me. This is when it all turned to custard. He started with saying 'do you know that when England are playing Rugby all Kiwis will automatically cheer for the other side (yeah right - like you're the first person to tell me that), a few other usual (boring) pom bashing remarks spewed forth, then he leaned towards me so as not to be over heard and said ......'have you any idea how much I hate the English - have you any idea how much all of us Kiwis hate the YOU'.

Now I know for a fact there's gonna be a few of you telling me that this bloke was having a joke, pulling my leg, only saying it in jest. Believe me he wasn't - I've enjoyed many hours of Pom v Kiwi banter - this was on a totally different level.

I have to say, of late I've really started to feel more settled and happier to be here, this incident has now knocked me back a few weeks/months. Talk about one step forward two steps back. Yes yes I know that people like this are in the minority, there's no way I judge the entire population in the same way - thankfully d**k heads like him are the exception rather than the rule, but believe me, if/when you come across a situation like this, it'll knock the wind right out of your sails.

Kiwis are the friendliest people in the world eh? Maybe an idea to think again on that one.

So - back to the original question on this thread - I don't think it's our American friends who get the (occasional) sticky end of the Kiwi welcome stick.

Diny

[MB]

if/when you come across a situation like this, it'll knock the wind right out of your sails.

Yes, I can believe that, Diny. That must have been very unsettling.

I wonder what prompted him to behave like this. Sounds like he might be extremely confused and angry.

I take it that he seemed to you to have had -- perchance -- more than one cold drink when he made his charming, frilly conversational gambit? Or no?

Anyway, hope he sorts his stuff out.

I can only trust that you didn't lose sleep over his comments.

By the by, re. your earlier comment, we really do smell. Our case officer made our PR conditional on "purchase/hire/lease of one (branded) substantially effective deodorant soap bar, to be distributed and used equally amongst the principal applicant and/or principal applicant's partner. And open a window in here, can't you, people? Jeez."

At least I think that's what she said.

[Al_S]

'have you any idea how much I hate the English - have you any idea how much all of us Kiwis hate the YOU'.

It might help to look at this philosophically; Immigrants enter a country, not necessarily its residents' hearts! Though what this person said was appalling, I am afraid he might not be a minority. And you don't have to be in NZ to feel this dark side of the human race. It is present here , there and everywhere.

[baboonworld]

to answer about agents - i wouldnt bother. yes there are some forms to fill in - yes it can be complex - but they arent worth the money and a friend of ours who used one waited 6 months for them to submit the forms! They were still filling in forms when DH PR came thru - and they had started nearly 12 months before!!!

[Delson]

"then he leaned towards me so as not to be over heard and said ......'have you any idea how much I hate the English"

Diny, that must have been awful for you. He made a point of not being overheard, this to me seems he is in a minority. He probably had too much to drink and was a bit jealous of people making a fuss of you!! :)

[tigerlily]

Diny, that sounds very frightening. I'm sorry. I have to admit total ignorance as to why the Kiwis would dislike people from the UK at all. They know their own history and roots, so why in the world would they so hate the place their ancestors came from? I've never seen this sentiment in the US, in fact quite the opposite, much adoration and respect for anyone with a British accent!

[baboonworld]

he must be from OZ! (joke)

[Juniper]

wow diny, what an ugly incident...sometimes it just doesn't seem to matter that such people are in the minority. if i may indulge in hyperbole, criminals are in the minority and they still have a very real effect on their victims. in any case, i expect it will be cheering to have a support group of kiwi friends. maybe you should tell them what this guy said, it may be uncomfortable to feel like you are "tattling" or "can't handle it" but it really shouldn't be your problem. maybe they know this guy and can make it his problem. burying your feelings just saves them for later...

i think the only personal experience i've had with bigotry was in high school when i went out with a chinese american, some redneck kid called -me- a "chink." i'm sorry but that doesn't even make sense. it was so ridiculous that it didn't really have an effect on me, but it goes to show that some people will go out of their way to spread some hate.

as a prospective immigrant, i have to accept that i will never be considered a kiwi, and i will never feel just like a kiwi. i'll always be a transplant, an american kiwi (is that a real term?) no matter how much people like me, no matter how well i settle in, that's just the immigrant experience for you...but i believe it will be worth it, especially since the future kiddos will be kiwis "for reals" :-)

hopefully the anecdotes about americans not being accepted into society had more to do with personal circumstances and/or personalities and expectations, rather than any widespread sentiment felt by most kiwis. from all the refuting evidence aired here, i feel optimistic that this is the case. qualifications aren't everything, people want to hire candidates that they feel will contribute to a good working environment, and the interviewers may have just gotten a bit of a negative vibe from them.

about the whole "pendulum theory" with politics and whether it's a good reason to leave the country...i agree in principle that political trends go back and forth. however, there is a whole different feel to what's happened since 2000. regimes can change the very nature of a country for decades to come, so, while it's possible that everything will go back to "normal" at some point, i don't feel like riding it out. it's a time-honored reason for immigration, really - flee the regime you don't like, go somewhere that you think will be better for the next generation :-) it's among my top reasons.

stress occurs everywhere, but i'll pick the flavor of mine. goodbye apple pie, hello kiwi pavlova!

[Juniper]

to elaborate on how your (diny's) kiwi friends can turn your problem into the offender's problem (no, i don't mean go rough them up hehe), i have an anecdote about a REALLY ugly american...

some years ago we were having a nice chat with some close friends and one of their friends (who turned out to be the ugly american). the close friends were about to move in with the "ugly american."

the topic of traveling to japan came up, and the ugly american regaled us with a tale of a trip he took to japan as a teenager. he related one incident where he and a companion went into a little shrine that the devout toss coins into, but never enter. they stomped around and stole some coins, laughing about how they were probably the only people to go in there for hundreds of years.

STUNNED SILENCE from myself, my husband and our close friends. "um...that is NOT cool, why did you do that? what the hell?" everyone started asking him. at first he defended himself because he thought it didn't matter about desecrating their holy place, since it was a shrine to something that wasn't "real" or correct somehow. the concept of respecting other people's beliefs completely escaped him. as we continued to question him about how he could possibly do something like that and think it was -funny-, he backpedaled and tried to act like he wasn't serious, or that he used to think like that, or something...? basically it dawned on him that we did NOT share his views, and it was completely uncool.

so our friends didn't move in with him, since they realized they didn't know him as well as they thought. basically the ugly american suffered social consequences and hopefully got some perspective to re-evaluate his thinking.

obviously a personal insult isn't on the same scale as shrine desecration :P but i bet your friends would be surprised at their acquaintance's behavior and think differently of him.

[Diny]

Thanks for your responses folks. 36 hours further on from the incident and I'm over it !!!! OK, so it's left a very nasty taste but what the hell ....
.......... pick myself up, brush myself off, start all over again ........high hopes eh.

I need to add that after it happened we moved on to the other pub in the village (yeah - we have 2 pubs !!!!!!!!) and ended up having a brilliant night.

Diny

[Delson]

a proper "pub crawl"!! :cheers

[Howie]

I just wanted to share my experience of being an immigrant in the US. Now I'm Canadian, so while in the US, no one knew that I wasn't American (unless I accidentally said eh) so this put me in a bit of a unique situation. Oh many occasions, I would hear or overhear people going on (and on) about how foreigners weren't welcome. Even people who know I was Canadian would share these views with me (probably because I'm white and speak english). I would tell them, hey you're talking about me, but they just didn't get it.

Now in NZ as soon as I open my mouth everyone knows that I'm not a Kiwi, but I must admit that I'm generally pretty quick to make it known that I'm Canadian, at which point I inevitable hear a long story about some distant relative in Canada. Although most people that I've met have been incredibly nice and helpful (if asked) I do feel like people are a little reserved. I haven't yet figured out if this is because I'm a foreigner or if this is just the way that Kiwis are.

I know that I'm really oversensitive when it comes to anti-immigrant views and so far I'm not sure if it's better or worse than in the US. I am extremely intolerant when it comes to intolerant people (and pig hunters, but that's for another thread).

Oh, and by the way, Brits aren't hated in Canada. Canadians suck at any sport that isn't played on ice so I really don't get this sports rivalry.

[Moorf]

I like to ask people with an attitude where their ancestors emigrated to NZ from, and when....

[Juniper]

yeah, it's weird how countries (well, thinking of US here) made up of immigrants can be so hostile to the idea of immigration. i think it's rationalized by the idea "well we got here first, i was born here, and there's not enough jobs/etc to go around anymore." not that it's fair or particularly rational, but that's the attitude...

[Diny]

I like to ask people with an attitude where their ancestors emigrated to NZ from, and when....
This is so true.

Reminds me of a conversation I had several years ago whilst out here on holiday. We were on a bush walk up in the Coromandel with my brother and sister in law (not the one I went out with on Friday).

Every weed we came across in the undergrowth I was informed 'your lot brought that over' ...... we found evidence of possums and was told 'your lot brought them over' .... of course we came across gorse - yeah you guessed it ...... 'your lot brought that over'.

After a while we came across a Hawthorn bush. I was suprised to see it and said 'oh look - a hawthorn bush' ........ right on cue S.I.L said 'your lot brought that over'. At this point I stopped, looked her in the eye and said -
'no - actually YOUR lot brought it over, all of MY lot are still back in England'.

I swear to this very day the penny hasn't dropped with her yet.

N.B

Would like to make it very clear at this stage that the Kiwi's mentioned in my above posts are definately in the minority - confrontations like these are NOT the norm. Maybe that's why they hit so hard when they do happen.

Diny

[pineapplehead]

We had a similar experience to Diny's with a drunk or medicated (or both) man at a Xmas party, talking about american foreign policy and then americans in general. I guess he finally realised what he said was inappropriate because he later apologised and said things like " I did know one American fellow I liked..." Others at the party also apologised and I know he is in the minority. Funny thing ...that man is married to an american (granted she hasn't lived there for 20+years).

Back to the original thread...No doubt, relocating to a new country is difficult. Some Americans may enjoy the new culture, choices and experiences. Other Americans wont - and the same could be said of all immigrants. It is just a matter of taste... but if they have to blame their choice on the country, that IS ugly.

On a side note... Juniper, the Pavlova is very SWEET. When you come over, don't buy the supermarket variety - inedible. We did have a homemade one that was good and creamy. But my OH's favorite is still the homemade apple pie- with tart apples. And I really prefer fruit in my dessert, instead of chocolate ... It is just a matter of taste.

[Moorf]

no - actually YOUR lot brought it over, all of MY lot are still back in England'.




Oh I shall have to add that one to my repetoire :D

[Juniper]

On a side note... Juniper, the Pavlova is very SWEET. When you come over, don't buy the supermarket variety - inedible. We did have a homemade one that was good and creamy. But my OH's favorite is still the homemade apple pie- with tart apples. And I really prefer fruit in my dessert, instead of chocolate ... It is just a matter of taste.

homemade it is, then! the words "mereingue" and "creamy" are bound to perk OH's interest...yet i'm likely to bring cup/tablespoon measures so i can still make everything in the "joy of cooking" LOL... is the pavlova actually chocolately? i thought it was pretty much fruit and whippy white stuff :-P

[pineapplehead]

Oh, my comment was confusing, huh... sorry. Pavlova is generally plain mereingue, white, but occasionally with flavors or fruit inside.

I guess I was trying to say that most people I know would choose chocolate tarts, cake, or whatever, over fruit. But I like the less sweet stuff. We all have different preferences and it is hard to say what works for one, may not for another.

[Juniper]

oh i'm a fruit maniac...a fellow pineapplehead i guess, lol...not to mention pomegranatehead, apricothead, etc... :-D