[josh]

This article is disheartening, but I'm not suprised; it looks like something Americans will have to be conscious of in most countries. Any locals care to comment on how accurate this article might be?


http://story.newzealandstar.com/p.x/ct/9/id/0fc7579288c6d96d/cid/14d7eba4e435d135/

Kiwis have turned sour on Americans

PALMERSTON NORTH, New Zealand — When Christopher Hill, America's overseer of Asian diplomacy, recently talked about the need for a better relationship between the United States and New Zealand, he wasn't telling Gregg Smith anything new.

Smith first arrived here in 2005 to teach at a high school in Dannevirke, a rural town in this North Island farming region not unlike the central California of his youth. The middle-age American chuckles ruefully as he remembers his early impression of New Zealand as a "perfect cultural match" for him.

That changed after verbal abuse from his students about his nationality got so bad that he filed a lawsuit with the country's Human Rights Commission. Smith says he is seeking recognition that the anti-American vitriol has gotten too personal.

Opinions of America have tumbled here — to 29 percent of Kiwis feeling positive about the U.S. in 2004, from 54 percent in 2001. In some ways, the trend mirrors results elsewhere. A new 15-nation poll from the Pew Research Center found double-digit declines in countries as diverse as Russia, India and Turkey — drops that seem tied to growing pessimism about the Iraq war. Pakistan — where the U.S. offered aid after last year's earthquake — and China showed slight gains over last year.

But the depths of dislike expressed in polling here, as well as accounts of personal hostility, are surprising from a people who have fought alongside the U.S. in numerous wars, including Afghanistan, and share cultural values.

"The nastiness of some of the things I've heard from the kids here has to be heard to be believed," Smith says.

His experiences are echoed by some high-profile Americans. Douglas Sparks, who came to New Zealand to oversee the Anglican Church's Wellington Cathedral, suddenly packed his bags two years ago and vowed to never bring his family back. Sparks said he was the target of anti-U.S. graffiti and his children were taunted by classmates who said they hoped U.S. soldiers in Iraq would be killed.

And the last U.S. ambassador to New Zealand, Charles Swindells, went out with a bang in mid-2005. In his farewell speech, he browbeat some listeners for indulging in "empty, inaccurate criticism of U.S. ideals or actions that offers no constructive alternatives and gives no credit where credit is due."

For Smith, the growing coolness in a land where the U.S. used to fit as comfortably as a hamburger in a bun is puzzling. "It can't be just personal — it has to come from a wider concept about what America is and isn't. But how did that happen?"

Aside from the global unpopularity of the Iraq war, New Zealand still smarts from a decades-old disagreement.

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Nearly 20 years ago, New Zealand enacted the world's first statute preventing nuclear-armed and nuclear-powered ships from visiting its shores. The measure, which led to New Zealand's suspension from the ANZUS tripartite defense alliance with Australia, proved popular at home, but it continues to cast a pall on ties with the U.S.

The relationship has its strengths, however. Both nations are ardent promoters of free trade, and bilateral trade totals $5 billion. Wellington sent aid to Washington after Hurricane Katrina. The countries share a dominant language and religion, and U.S. pop culture plays well in New Zealand.

Some say that common ground may contribute to anti-Americanism here. "As part of young New Zealand's ongoing quest for a national identity, some people find it useful to define themselves against America," says one senior U.S. official.

New Zealand's ambassador to the U.N. in the early 1990s, Terence O'Brien, believes his country, like others, is becoming more America-conscious, rather than anti-American. He says that as the U.S. has cut a more muscular presence in the world since 9/11, more criticism of its actions is to be expected.

"New Zealand isn't any different in that regard," he says. "Why should it be? It's not as if the changes that have taken place since I lived there have been for the better."

[clg]

Can't say this is surpising given that the view of just about all of the world has become fairly neagative towards the US, for very valid reasons. This is not just a NZ does not like the US as much issue it more of a lot of the world does not like the US as much as it used to issue. What matters is the ablity to seperate anger towards US policies away from the US as a whole towards the view of an individual.

As to experiencing problems as an American in NZ, I have had one person personally attack me as an American, he was an old professor who was drunk/medicated and he appologised 10 minutes later and said it was the US he was mad at not me as an individual. This upset me but I got over it.

Very often when I am talking to someone for the first time you can tell they are wondering if you support what the US is doing these days. Since I very much do not and I frankly do not like what the US is becoming I am open about that and I think that seems to help. I find I am often more critical of the US than most Kiwis. I can see how certain American personalites would not go over at all well here. The loud, self centered American, of whom there are quite a few, probably would not go over well anywhere except in the US. If as an American you have ever felt embarrased watching loud obnoxious Americans abroad you will probably be fine.

As to a US Ambassador (Bush appointment) wondering where things went wrong I don't think that is too hard to answer. Interesting how many in the Bush administration seem to blame others for seeing things the wrong way instead of admitting that they have done some dumb things and that in fact people are seeing the truth, not the 'truth' as the Bush admin would like you to see it.

From my perspective this is not really a problem but I do expect to run into people that may attack me (verbally!) because I am an American. The same sort of thing happens to people because of there race, religion, or sexual orientation. It is just not something that most white Americans are probably used to. This would worry me most when it comes to my daughter but as she is only three and will pretty much pass as a Kiwi in school that should not really be a problem. Older kids moving over might be tough, they may have a harder time adjusting particually if they don't have the right attitude.

Chris

[StevieD]

That is very interesting. Unfortunately for most Americans, the administration of recent times has not done anything to make their lot a better one. People the world over see Bush and co. as war mongers. He is considered a laughing stock, rightly or wrongly, but people still remember the votes debacle and his very slight "majority" that got him into office.
I think you are correct about loud obnoxious Americans being embarrassing, I have met quite a few and they tend to live up to the stereotype. But, there are also loud, obnoxious Brits, hooligans, idiots, whatever from every race. America doesn't hold the monopoly there! I met some delightful Americans recently in the English Lake District - charming people. It is probably down to the backlash of the Iraq situation that people feel they need to express their opinions. Thick skins may be needed, but it will hopefully blow over.
I wish you all the best.

Steve

[Annierobrigado]

hi all

woe to us ordinary citizens who suffer because of the stupidity and irresponsibility of our nation's leaders. goes to show how small the world has become so that the mistakes of other countries become fodder for neighborhood gossip , as if those things happened only just across town or next door.

new zealand or any other country for that matter should teach its children discipline, to respect people of all races and nationalities, and never verbally abuse anyone, because we are all humans. i daresay adults should show good example, but they'll say it's my right to express my opinion. yeah, sure, but not at the expense of hurting someone else's feelings, no matter how valid the opinion is.

i guess it's up to us migrants to pave the way... wouldn't it be a relief to be able to live one's life quietly without worrying what vile or poison is going to be hurled at us the next minute, just because we came from a different country or culture?

i know a lot of nice americans; they're kind and helpful, and though they're sometimes frank and brash, i just put it to their being honest to a fault. it's a different characteristic from the typical filipino who bends over to be gracious even in the face of rude behavior, not wanting to consciously hurt another one's feelings. but hey, a lot of filipinos are also becoming americans, so i hope america stops its irresponsibility and take care of its citizens.

God bless America. God bless the whole world.

cheers!
annie:D

[Avalon]

"It can't be just personal — it has to come from a wider concept about what America is and isn't. But how did that happen?"

:confused: Do they mean other than ramming Bush and Blair's "Democracy" down everyones throat whether they want it not, via the barrel of a big gun????

No one should hurl abuse at an American (or a brit) because of what Bush and Blair and done, and im actually quite surprised to hear it happens here. But then Iraqi citizns shouldnt be being blown to bits because Osama Bin Laden had some planes crash into a Us building.

[StevieD]

Osama Bin Laden had some planes crash into a US building.

Or did he??? :confused:

You see, events like that even have people believing that the US had something to do with it, people all over the world have a feeling that some huge conspiracy for world domination was afoot. Illuminati, masons, blood lines, very interesting theories. Why did the bin laden family get a private plane to whisk them out of the US when every single aircraft was grounded?

Nothing to do with the average Joe. I agree with Avalon, the US has to stop it's gunboat diplomacy (and the UK too). But we have a head start on the US after all, wasn't it called an empire?

[toesonthenose]

Americans feel this way about Americans, the Blue state vs. Red state stuff is very real. Many I know feel this isn't the country they grew up in, and others think it is just becoming what it should have been. An interesting and painful time lies ahead for the US, more wars, deficits, immigration issues, womens rights, government spying........I doubt there are many Kiwis who are more dissappointed in US policy than me.
Awaiting Hawai`ian Inndependance, Shaun

[Going2NZ]

This is a tough one. I both agree and disagree. Personally, in the 9 months I've been here, I've only had one person get nasty with me based on my nationality. People are more inclined to want to discuss America's choices and the the inevitable "why did you elect that idiot - again?" issues. Or want to know how it is different compared to NZ. I will say that there is a considerable amount of mis-information about how Americans really live. No, Desperate Housewives is NOT typical of Americans.

Now, having said that, I have also noticed some blanket condemnations in newspaper editorials and articles. All valid points but not well-rounded analyses. While it hurts to see that, I can't say I blame them. Be realistic, no matter how much you disagree with what the US does, you are still an American and have some responsibility in the rest of the world's point of view. But NZ is just as split as the US in some ways. Those same newspapers with anti-American sentiments also printed an article about an enterprising kiwi hoping to get a nice, fat contract with the US military... anyone else see the irony here?

As far as I'm concerned, what the current US regime is doing is deplorable but it does not define me as an American. They don't get to steal that too.

I don't mean to be harsh. My experiences have been overwhelmingly positive but I suspect there are isolated incidents. And I don't think you can come to any foreign country without being willing to adapt to the culture including learning to not constantly compare the NZ to the US.

[Avalon]

An interesting and painful time lies ahead for the US, more wars, deficits, immigration issues, womens rights, government spying.....
Unfortunatly for all of us. And thats maybe a lot of the reason for so much anger towards the US. (though why the US should get it all is a bit unfair. The UK government is as much to "blame" - its Blairs War too). Most countries are living in FUD (Fear, uncertainty and doubt), either of "Terrorism" or a further US/UK attack.

NZ is much less affected. No one seems to be running round in fear here. Maybe because NZ is not in the "Coalition of the willing"?

[josh]

I am still hopeful that NZ is on the far end of the 'let's stereotype americans' spectrum. I suspect isolated incidents are what spurned this article. But, I was curious if anyone has send any trends or had personal accounts. Good point that a migrant may need to have some tough skin.

Be realistic, no matter how much you disagree with what the US does, you are still an American and have some responsibility in the rest of the world's point of view.

I disagree with this comment somewhat. America is a very diverse place (becoming less so though) and there are a small but significant percentage of the population that is very much opposite of the American stereotype. In a way, maybe NZ and other countries will benefit from US migrants because the ones that are leaving (like myself) are those that are energy/environmentally conscious and very much anti-Bush and anti-US govt policies. I do think though that the US government is a direct representation of its people and the American people *as a whole* (but mostly from red states) :) are more to blame than the government. The reason we have such a war-mongering, bullying US govt is because the overconsumption and greed of American citizens and corporations demands it.

Having said that, I imagine it is hard to not stereotype americans; I'm sure the majority of exposure other countries get is through tourists who more than likely fit the stereotype. I guess in some cases it will be up to an individual to show clearly they do not support US policies and hopefully that will be enough to not get harrassed. If only I could pick up a Canadian accent easily. ;)

[hcykana]

Hello, I'm new to the forums! We're planning a June '07 move via Partnership (husband is a Kiwi by decent). We're a bit worried about the anti-American sentiment abroad. Not because of the verbal insults... we're fairly tough-skinned, and our kids are too little (9 months and 21 months). We're mostly worried that it's going to effect our chances of getting jobs.

We're not loud, obnoxious Americans. We both voted not-Bush (twice!). We live in a Blue state. I'm just hoping that because we're close to Canada, and have no real regional accents, that we'll be able to pass for Canadians at first glance.

[clg]

I don't think you will have any problems getting jobs as Americans. I can say that overall here I have had no problems other than one incident I mentioned earlier, this from a neighbor across the street. I forgot to mention he is married to an American and I sort of forgot about that at the time!

I did think the original article posted here was over the top and those did not at all represent normal views or experiences. My hunch is that the thing they may have had in common is that there may have been teenage kids invovled and that could go a long way for explaining things. One thing too, Kiwis will often make strong statements meant in a joking sort of a way so it might be easy to misinterpret things. At work, we regualry criticise Aussies, South Islanders, Americans, and people from the Hutt. At the same time we are all from those places and it is meant as a joke. If you overheard some of our conversation or stepped into it sudenly it might sound fairly bad but none of us take it that way!

One last thing, I have often been mistaken as a Canadian. It seems that California accents are quite generic. The American accents you can't hide from are Southern or a strong east coast accent.

[Crunchmonkey]

At work, we regualry criticise Aussies, South Islanders, Americans, and people from the Hutt. At the same time we are all from those places and it is meant as a joke. If you overheard some of our conversation or stepped into it sudenly it might sound fairly bad but none of us take it that way!

What's up with the Hutt ? Looked like a good place to live being close to Wellington and I've got friends from there. I had no problem on my travels in New Zealand , the Kiwis I met were very friendly . Except for the accents I felt like I was in California a lot of the time. New Zealand is great :yes yep I think people everywhere are putting down somebody somewhere. America's policies need to be criticized, I'm one of the biggest critics . Anti policies ( good ) anti people ( not good ).

[clg]

Here are some nice Wellington/Hutt/Porirua sterotypes for you.

http://wandaharland.blogspot.com/2005/09/one-of-those-emails.html

[StevieD]

I was going to say clg, the Kiwi sense of humour is quite subtle!!

[herseymusic]

This is interesting. I actually taught the children of Douglas Sparks, the minister who is mentioned in the original post. The school they attended was a small parochial school attached to the church which he was leading. I heard that the Sparks family had left, and I was quite surprised at the reason why. I'm American, and I never heard any derogatory comments from the other school children about the US (of course, I was the teacher, so they probably wouldn't say anything around me...)

It seemed like the older of the Sparks' sons integrated well, but the younger one (he was 7) was extremely disruptive and antagonizing toward other kids. I'm thinking that it was a bad idea to make him move to NZ. Anyway, this behavior may have been what caused the other kids to react - rather than their anti-american sentiments coming out of the blue. But, of course, children usually say things that they heard their parents say...

Having moved to NZ in 2002, it's been interesting to see the change in people's attitudes toward America. When I first arrived, it seemed like the main stereotype of Americans was that we are somewhat frivolous, too loud, and easily parted with our money.

Nowadays, people are more likely to confront me about the US, but it's never in a nasty way - though if you tried to defend Bush, things might get ugly.

I think the most pervading sentiment about Americans in NZ is that we're itinerant...here for a while, but ultimately moving back to where we came from. Because I'm in my 20's, prospective employers *always* asked me if I was planning on "buggering off back to the States anytime soon." Fortunately, I now work in the film industry, and they have no problem whatsoever about hiring Americans.

[jo-and-jeff]

It's hardly surprising that people in other countries, including NZ, have "turned sour on Americans". Part of the reason that we're here is because we've turned sour on a lot of what is going on in America right now.

A really big part of the problem is that the US media has only recently become the slightest bit critical of the Bush Administration and its actions. Up until now, what the rest of the world has gotten to see, courtesy of U.S. newspapers and TV stations, is that all Americans support Bush and the war in Iraq, hate all Muslims, and think that they have the divine right to dictate to the rest of the countries in the world how they should live. So people in NZ and other countries think that we are all stark raving megalomaniacs, and really, I can absolutely understand why.

The best way to counter Anti-American feeling, as mentioned by some here, is to be willing to discuss the American political situation calmly and openly. Make sure people know that less than 36% of Americans approve of what Bush is doing (a figure that, in my estimation, is still far too high, and indicative that way too many Americans are clueless idiots).

And, of course, being a nice, considerate, friendly American to everyone we meet is one of the best ways to help counter Anti-American feeling, one Kiwi at a time.

:roll

[Jenny & Mark]

If only I could pick up a Canadian accent easily. ;)

I was disheartened to find that most Kiwi's can not distinguish between my Canadian accent and an American accent.

Mark.

[Oregonkiwi]

yes, that's true that kiwis can't tell the difference between Canadian and US accents, just as most Americans can't tell the difference between NZ and Australian accents - or NZ and English accents - I've been asked so many times while living in the US, "what part of England are you from?". :roll

[clg]

I agree with you Oregon Kiwi! I can now, after about a year pick up english/kiwi/aussie accents fairly well but it is still a little hard at times.

Canadian vs. US can be a little tough at times. Some Canadian and US accents are very distinct but there are more neutral ones that honestly I can't tell the difference with. I know someone from Vancouver and I cannot tell they have any trace of a Canadian accent. There are some other Canadians we know and they seem to just have a few words that really give them away to me. When you meet someone and you don't know US/Canadian just say, so sounds like you are from North America, I have noticed people doing that here.

[K&CS]

Gosh, how strange! I could understand having difficulty trying to tell the difference between American/Canadian accents and NZ/Aussie accents but I'm surprised people mix up British and NZ/Ozzie accents - I would say they're completely different (especially some of the strong regional accents). I always feel like my accent makes me stick out like a sore thumb that I am NOT a kiwi!!

[Moorf]

I'm afraid I can't tell US from Canadian accents either despite having worked with a Canadian girl for quite a while :o - and I must have dropped my plum somewhere cos in Oz they kept assuming I was a Kiwi :confused:

[Diny]

I always feel like my accent makes me stick out like a sore thumb that I am NOT a kiwi!!

I feel that way about my accent too ....... and long may it continue !!

Diny

[backtonz]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/britainuspopularitypoll

[jess]

We're Americans from Virginia. Nobody's said anything derogatory about it to us. Most kiwis actually seem to know where Virginia is, and many have worked in the US or have family there. Anyone who mentions politics usually approves of me, because they just assume (correctly) that one of the reasons I'm here is that I don't agree with US foreign policy.

Oddly enough most people don't recognize my accent. Born and raised in Virginia, though I don't really have the southern twang. Everyone seems to think I'm English. And when I say I'm American they apologize all over themselves for having thought I was a "pom". Someone even hinted that I should try to sound more American so I wouldn't be mistaken for English! I've gotten the impression that the English get stuck with a harder time, because there are more of them here and because with the exchange rate they tend to come with more money and are blamed for driving up housing prices.

Just my impression from what we've been told, but maybe kiwis are more comfortable saying something bad about the English to me and something bad about Americans to someone else, instead of to my face?

[jo-and-jeff]

Our letting agent asked me the other day where in Canada I came from. I suspected he was being polite and erring on the side of courtesy, so that he didn't insult me by assuming I was from the U.S. if I wasn't!

It's my impression that Kiwis will razz you about your ethnicity, whether you're from the U.S., the UK, Oz, or elsewhere. It's all very good-natured, and seems to be a common way to get a conversation started.

[Diny]

[QUOTE=jess]
And when I say I'm American they apologize all over themselves for having thought I was a "pom". Someone even hinted that I should try to sound more American so I wouldn't be mistaken for English!
QUOTE]

This is the kind of rubbish that really annoys me about the Kiwis - especially when you consider how many of them are only 1st or 2nd generation Kiwis themselves, a huge amount of them having originated in the UK...... Take my father in law for instance, dislikes everything I stand for (being a Pom) but is only a '1st generationer' himself.

Err - doesn't exactly make them look the most informed, intelligent people at times. Hey ho

[Crunchmonkey]

I'm sorry but I never heard of the term Pom before. What does it mean ?

[DrPhred]

[QUOTE=jess]
And when I say I'm American they apologize all over themselves for having thought I was a "pom". Someone even hinted that I should try to sound more American so I wouldn't be mistaken for English!
QUOTE]

This is the kind of rubbish that really annoys me about the Kiwis - especially when you consider how many of them are only 1st or 2nd generation Kiwis themselves, a huge amount of them having originated in the UK...... Take my father in law for instance, dislikes everything I stand for (being a Pom) but is only a '1st generationer' himself.

Err - doesn't exactly make them look the most informed, intelligent people at times. Hey ho

Same thing happens here in the USA. Witness our recent anti-immigration laws that congress is trying to pass. "I got here first, so stay out!"

[Diny]

[QUOTE=Diny]

"I got here first, so stay out!"

Well you've hit the nail on the head there matey !!!!!

Don't get me wrong, generally the Kiwis are a great bunch of people (heck I'm married to one of them) - but this inane attitude of theirs just irritates me.

This reminds me (once again - I've posted this before) about the conversation I had with my sister in law (Kiwi) a few years ago.

We were on a bush walk and I was interested in all the flora and fauna, every weed I came across I was told 'Your lot brought that here', abit further we'd see evidence of possum damage and was told 'your lot brought them here', then of course - the gorse (a pest maybe but very pretty) - yeah - I was told 'your lot brought that here'. Eventually we came across what looked to be a hawthorn tree, I commented on it and was told ..........'your lot brought that over here'.

I then turned to her and said ......'No - all of my lot are still back in the UK, I think you'll find it was YOUR lot who brought it over here'.

Not being the brightest tool in the box I still believe to this day she doesn't understand what I was trying to say.

Diny

[Diny]

I'm sorry but I never heard of the term Pom before. What does it mean ?


Now don't quote me on this but I was once told it stood for 'Prisoner Of Mother England'.

I guess it would need an 'E' on the end for that though - so can't confirm the spelling.

Diny

[zardell]

Now don't quote me on this but I was once told it stood for 'Prisoner Of Mother England'.

I guess it would need an 'E' on the end for that though - so can't confirm the spelling.

Diny



Yes, I have heard that (or something very similar) too.

Julie

xx

[Oregonkiwi]

I'm sorry but I never heard of the term Pom before. What does it mean ?

http://us2uk.tripod.com/faq.htm
Why are the English called Poms or Pommies?

"Pommy" (or "pom" or "pommie") is a primarily Australian (and largely derisive) slang term used to indicate a recent immigrant from Great Britain, or a Brit in general. However the origination of this word is a little unclear. "Pommy" might have been based on the word "pomegranate" -- either because the redness of the fruit supposedly matched the typically florid British complexion, or because it was used as rhyming slang for "immigrant." Also a possibility is since Australia was originally a hold for convicts from England, the letters P.O.H.M. (Property of her majesty) were printed on their clothing and then began to apply to all immigrants from England. Interestingly enough, the Oxford English definition of POM stands for Prisoner of Mother England.

Another explanation: it originated in Victoria, where the British immigrants came by ship to the Port of Melbourne. The initials POM were quickly adopted as a fond nickname.

[Avalon]

I then turned to her and said ......'No - all of my lot are still back in the UK, I think you'll find it was YOUR lot who brought it over here'.


:nice1 Good Answer :nice1

[Crunchmonkey]

Thanks for the meaning of Pom . I was a bit confused about it but now I've got .

[jo-and-jeff]

http://www.listener.co.nz/issue/203/features/6019/upping_the_anti.htm

[Crunchmonkey]

http://www.listener.co.nz/issue/203/features/6019/upping_the_anti.htm



Very good article and very sad. I'm not my countries policies or behaviors , I'm me. For all the things that New Zealanders dislike about America I agree and if you look at America you can see a lot of us feel the same way. Not enough of us for sure but enough that I would think you would not want to hate an American just for being an American. I protested the Vietnam war, I protested the Iraq war, I always voted for the liberal person running , I support green policies, I don't wave my flag nor do I carry a gun and there are millions of Americans like me. I"m not anti any country , I'm a humanist not a nationalist . To quote Rodney King "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?" . As New Zealander you can help stop or at least send a message to America by stop dealing with as many American corporations as possible . Here's an easy one McDonalds , why on earth do you want to go to an McDonalds when you have all the cool Take Aways and the low point on my trip in New Zealand was seeing a K Mart , I don't even go to these places in America.

[constablechuck]

Hello, I'm new to the forums! We're planning a June '07 move via Partnership (husband is a Kiwi by decent). We're a bit worried about the anti-American sentiment abroad. Not because of the verbal insults... we're fairly tough-skinned, and our kids are too little (9 months and 21 months). We're mostly worried that it's going to effect our chances of getting jobs.

We're not loud, obnoxious Americans. We both voted not-Bush (twice!). We live in a Blue state. I'm just hoping that because we're close to Canada, and have no real regional accents, that we'll be able to pass for Canadians at first glance.

Come on !!! your hoping to pass for a Canadian ? that sounds very un-american, nothing against Canadians but I'm proud to be an American, the government may always be corrupt to one degree or another, but it's the hard working honest people that make America not the government, I may disagree with the U.S. government but I would never turn my back on America or pretend to be from somewhere else.

I'm very unhappy with much of what our government is doing and the direction the country is headed but it's well known that the average American has nothing to say about what the government does, the wealthy special interest groups control both the Democratic and Republican parties and we the voters get to choose which group gets to line their pockets with our tax dollars every four years.

[Super_BQ]

I've been living in NZ for almost 10 years. A born and raised chinese-Canadian, I often try to make country comparison between countries with other neighboring countries. That is, it's quite easy to directly compare US vs. NZ but a far better comparison is to measure the differences between their next of kin country. The example I use is comparing how NZ and Australia treat each other vs how Canada & US treat each other. This comparison will remove the direct discrimination and view what the people of the country are really like.

1) SPORTING: If a top NZ rugby player leaves for Australia to play on the Australian team, he is viewed as a traitor. Call it patriotism? Go to a bar at some major rugby / cricket match and you'll see how bitter kiwis can get when they encounter Australians. Between NZ and Australia, there's always seems to be this rivalry bitterness between competing nations - the point they end up calling rude names at each other and then there's a fight outside. What about the time when NZ was about to beat Australia for the cricket cup but in order for Australia to win, they kept throwing the famous underhand (not thrown overhand) bowls.

I know for a fact between Canada and US, our top ice hockey players have never ever had a problem playing for some US team. Was the greatest hockey player in history (Wayne Gretzky) ever called a traitor when he moved to LA? I think not. It's more important to remind locals that while NZ rugby and cricket tend to emphasis on local players (with some exceptions), countries like Can/US enjoy drafting players all over the world with no repercussions. Yao Ming can play NBA while may of the top players in Canada came from artic countries like Russia/Norway, etc. Never were these players riduculed just because they were imported or exported.

2) TRADE: I've often wonder why NZ and Australia has not had free trade yet on import/exported goods while Canada and US has enjoyed the NAFTA agreement for well over a decade. Australia still imposes huge import taxes on any goods that Australia makes - yet most people view that the US imposes the biggest trade restriction if the goods are made in the US. If this was true than Ford & GM wouldn't be in such major financial crisis. Though in Australia Holden & Ford appear to be making profits (because of Australia's trade protectionism).

3) TAXATION: Recent NZ tax laws discourage kiwis in investing offshore (with the exception of Australia) while residents in Can or US have no restrictions where they can put their investments. It's quite clear the NZ gov't wants kiwis to keep their money within the country while exposing them to a higher level of risk.

4) LIBERTY & FREEDOM: Bill of Rights (US) & Charter of Rights & Freedom (Canada). These are important basic laws that every citizen in that country has. Under this act, the person in say Canada has numerous civil and political rights. The right to sue, the right of mobility, freedom of thought, believe, religion, expression, and most importantly, right of equality. I don't believe Australia nor NZ has such mandates. Unfortanately in NZ, the ACC act takes away the person's right to sue in injury claims.

What makes me laugh is many people in NZ still consider the country as a real "multi-cultural" country. Though i'm sure to most kiwis, when they meet me for the 1st time they would assume I would have a chinese accent. After a few words, they realise I have an American accent? You can be sure that if a Kiwi or an Australian visits Canada, the way they speak wouldn't even be an issue. There's far too many ethnic cultures in Canada that no person can be labelled as being from another country - it's much what Canada was made up of from the start vs. early NZ settlors came from England. If you want to measure the country's true multi-cultural level - then why aren't there many visable minorities in the NZ police force, in politics, and in the jurdicial system?

At the end, I often feel sorry for Americans that visit NZ each time I hear some local Kiwi bashing Americans. Perhaps some Americans should say they're Canadian so they can really see what the kiwi person would really say about Americans. In most part, their reasons for this resentment is unfounded and weak. The craziest i've heard was from my uncle.

A born kiwi, my uncle told me that the reason why many Kiwis have this tainted view about Americans is because the bad impression Americans left behind in their visit during the war times. Many American naval or army men had relationships with local Kiwi girls, got them pregnant and took off back to America without them. Is this enough to lead to generations of hatred?

BQ

[able]

2) TRADE: I've often wonder why NZ and Australia has not had free trade yet on import/exported goods while Canada and US has enjoyed the NAFTA agreement for well over a decade.

New Zealand and Australia have had a free trade agreement for 41 years.


many people in NZ still consider the country as a real "multi-cultural" country

As far as I know, New Zealand officially considers itself bicultural between British and Maori traditions.

[Trigirl]

super bq - do you realy hate NZ so much?

i've been trying for days not to say this but pretty much every post you make is dripping with negativity. if you go round like this in day to day life i'm not surprised you encounter a lot of negative attitudes.

[veronica]

Got to say it but as much as we accuse people of having 'rose tinted specs' I think that sometimes others appear to have 'negative' lenses. Like all things if you only look for either the good or bad then thats all you will see.

But getting back to Americans, its still a lot to do with both the Bush admin and peoples expected perception of americans as being loud and brash. Most aren't but you only need a few who are to perpetuate the feeling and give fodder to the 'Typical American' image.

Its no different to any other nationality, take the 'whinging Pom' thing. An Australian or NZer could meet a 100 brits who didn't whinge but as soon as they meet one who does then the label is applied and all the others are fogotten.

Lifes like that its a case of put up or shut up or in more modern idiom, 'deal with it'

[Ana&Steve]

its still a lot to do with both the Bush admin and peoples expected perception of americans as being loud and brash. Yep, a lot of Americans are put off by the loud and brash Americans, too!

I don't understand the idea of moving from one's home country just to bash the new one for not being like your home country. I know Americans get tagged for that a lot, but most who actually move away are ready to learn something new. :)
Ana

[*Paul]

I've only been asked once in the last 3 years to "justify" US foreign policy as though somehow I was part of it. That person was a member of the Napier city council no less. I think he was expecting me to report his views back to the president as soon as I returned :laugh

[veronica]

I get put off by loud and brash whatever the accent

[willowshouse]

A born kiwi, my uncle told me that the reason why many Kiwis have this tainted view about Americans is because the bad impression Americans left behind in their visit during the war times. Many American naval or army men had relationships with local Kiwi girls, got them pregnant and took off back to America without them. Is this enough to lead to generations of hatred?

BQ

Generations of hatred?? Do you have first-hand experience of these generations of hatred? - Those are very strong words my friend.. I'm pretty sure those American soldiers did the same thing in the UK (My Dad told me about an older relative of mine that had a child to a USA solider) but I don't recall any hatred of the USA in my family .... generalisations are a dangerous thing, be careful where you spill them.

[Super_BQ]

Trigirl,

When I 1st moved to NZ (10+ years ago) I use to think it was the most awesome country in the world. Relatively low income taxes (compared to Canada) and lack of capital gains tax, ACC system, low inflation and cost of living was very low. The very things I hated about living in Canada I saw none of that in NZ.

However, both countries headed in opposite directions. More importantly, it's the non-monetary issues that affected me the most. No amount of money can change the culture of the country and in order to experience the culture, you simply have to live in it (not visit it as a tourist).

Don't get the impression that I hate NZ with a passion. Every country has their bad aspects. But when someone gets ridiculed for just who they are, then it's silly to just complain and point fingers. I must rather look at the big picture.

BQ

[Super_BQ]

Willowshouse,

Would it be only a coincidence of how the teenagers in that school bashed at that American teacher to the point that he had to file a claim? If the parents of those teenagers had complete neutral views about Americans, then where would those kids get these ideas come from?

I was only going by what my uncle told me and IMO it was the most stupid thing i've heard.

BQ

[stu70]

Come on !!! your hoping to pass for a Canadian ? that sounds very un-american, nothing against Canadians but I'm proud to be an American, the government may always be corrupt to one degree or another, but it's the hard working honest people that make America not the government, I may disagree with the U.S. government but I would never turn my back on America or pretend to be from somewhere else.

I'm very unhappy with much of what our government is doing and the direction the country is headed but it's well known that the average American has nothing to say about what the government does, the wealthy special interest groups control both the Democratic and Republican parties and we the voters get to choose which group gets to line their pockets with our tax dollars every four years.

Sorry to say this guys, but a lot of Americans do just that. It is a KNOWN thing that when Americans head to the continent they put on maple leaf and try to pass as Canadians. I have known some three people first hand who do this to get "better" treatment. I know it is sad and one should not have to resort to this but ask the individual who does this as to why they need to. I am just passing my experience. Regards,

[NooDleS]

We're not loud, obnoxious Americans. We both voted not-Bush (twice!). We live in a Blue state. I'm just hoping that because we're close to Canada, and have no real regional accents, that we'll be able to pass for Canadians at first glance.

Your lack of pride and willingness to accept who you are is quite frankly shocking!

[stu70]

Your lack of pride and willingness to accept who you are is quite frankly shocking!

Sorry to disagree with you 100%. If YOU are the one facing hostile treatment and you are at the receiving end, you MUST do whatever it takes to feel safe. That is SAD but that is LIFE. These folks had the guts to say this in a public forum and for that I respect them.

I do not believe anyone should generalize a nation for the acts of a few. Americans that I know(I know a ton as I am in Canada) are all great folks. As a matter of fact, I like their striaghtforward and no nonsense approach better than what I call Canadian way of doing things (we carry the bad baggage from British times-sorry no offence meant to Brits). I do not want to become an American or acquire their citizenship but I will always have respect for them. I am not the one to generalize anybody. Cheers

[*Paul]

It looks like Winston Peters (NZ Foreign Minister) recognizes the subject of this thread. From the The Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10421698)

Mr Peters also used his speech to take a swipe at persistent critics of the United States and Australia.

He said the two countries' involvement in the Pacific was critical.

He said there seemed to be an "irrational, and growing, sense of sport among some quarters in New Zealand where it is considered a perverse badge of honour to take cheap shots at the Australians and Americans".

"These groups are quick to criticise what they disagree with and so slow to acknowledge the huge effort that both nations put into the Pacific and beyond."

"We need the United States, as well as Australia, to be intimately engaged in the Pacific if we are to be successful in our own endeavours."