[Sam'n'Kelv]

Coming from Bristol in the UK, with a reputation for some of the worst behaved schools in the country (rather unfairly in my opinion) I was wondering what the general feeling was regarding pupil behaviour in NZ schools.

[willsken]

I think you are probably right about it being unfair regarding Bristol’s reputation. I should imagine their schools are no different to most big cities. I will say though I have a friend that does supply teaching in Bristol and she has some stories to tell! On the same note though, the last school in S Wales I worked in had plenty of supply teacher that came once and wouldn't return.

From the research I've done it seems NZ has a lot good and average schools and some hard schools. I would say that you would have to look into individual schools you are interested in. Areas that have large Maori populations can have difficult schools, as generally they just aren't hooked into education. It’s a problem that they are trying very hard to rectify and have started having some success. The education system is undergoing big changes at the moment and from a very lengthy report I read there seem to be some interesting changes afoot. Having said all this I am not yet in NZ and rely on speaking to teachers already there. :roll

The impression I’ve been given is that take an average UK comp and compare it to an average NZ comp, my boys will be a lot better off in NZ!


This was on a thread once posted by Ruthroo. Her OH is a teacher and taught in a school in Rotorua. (Hope you don't mind me quoting you. :) )

Bad points: relatively / perceived high crime rate, relatively large / poor Maori population and all the negative social implications of people living in poverty, relatively high gang presence and occasional trouble, racial divide, town can feel kinda aggressive at times, especially at night (though the liquor ban in the city centre has helped heaps). The social problems do spill over into the schools, especially those located in the poorer parts of town - Mr R regularly came home with tales of pitched battles, gang warfare spilling over into the playground as the kids played out their parents rivalries, lack of motivation, drug problems etc. But as always, kids that are well supported at home can rise above this - and many do. Just be aware that it might be a bit of a culture shock, especially if your son goes straight into secondary / high school. Maybe if you are over here soon he can get into primary / intermediate, and settle in before making the jump to secondary.

[StevieD]

Yes, I believe the teachers are on strike next week - something to do with these changes perhaps?

[Diny]

Yeah - teachers strike next week.

Having experienced both sides of this coin I don't think there's alot in it.

UK has some wonderful schools and some dire schools.

NZ has some wonderful schools and some dire schools.

Once again (broken record time) it all depends on where you've come from, what your pervious experiences are and what your (realistic) expectations are.

My boys are not yet in senior school, but from what I've experienced here compared to what I experienced 'back home' I feel that my boys were far better off in the UK. I don't think there can be any set rule on this one. What one person will consdier a good point about a school others may consider to be a failing point - and vice versa.

Hope this helps.

Diny

[Carol]

Having taught in NZ schools for over 8 years now - I feel qualified enough to comment......

The school I work in - the kids are pussy cats compared to the UK (primary) schools I worked in.
Makes my hair stand on end when I think of some of the kids' problems I dealt with on a daily basis in the UK.
And of course those experiences spill over into their school behaviour.

One interesting point I thought I'd mention - a kiwi teacher friend of mine has just started her OE and is teaching in a school in Colchester for a year.

She says she has never experienced anything like it. The behaviour was/is terrible.
But more worrying still - she says their self esteem is the lowest she has ever experienced in 17 years of teaching.

And it is taking her every last bit of energy to get them back on track.....

They are Year 5.
Sad eh?

:mad:

[pieeater]

Just spent today at my Childrens school.TAS.It was country day,the big fundraiser of the year.I feel so lucky to have 'dropped on this school' it is just so far away from all the mayhem I'm reading about here.It does have it's limitations but nevertheless I'm happy sending my children there.I've tried to upload some photos but the files are too large.I'm pretty good with Hydraulics but not too sharp on the P.C.any tips

[swank]

My wife and I were on a train coming into Wellington three years ago one Monday morning in September. Needless to say, it was full of teen-age kids on the way to school. We were astonished when we were asked TWICE by boys (no less) during the trip if we would like to have their seats! Now, there was a sign posted in the train that this was the rule, but I really had the idea that these boys were doing it to be polite. To wit, my wife and are only 30 so it was not like we needed the pitty...

I don't know about the UK, but in the Netherlands this would NEVER, NEVER,NEVER,NEVER,NEVER,NEVER,NEVER happen... (and when I see old ladies standing in the tram while Dutch boys and girls sit yapping on ther telephones, my blood does tend to boil....)

We were stunned.

[Caroline and Dave]

Yeah - teachers strike next week.



Once again (broken record time) it all depends on where you've come from, what your pervious experiences are and what your (realistic) expectations are.



Diny

I think you mean previous Diny :laugh
Im not picking,I just saw the funny side of that or is it my warped mind

[Carol]

:laugh :cheers

[willsken]

I remember Mum and Dad visiting me at school a few years ago. My Mum was like a cat on hot bricks and couldn't wait to leave. She said the whole atmosphere of the place was so threatening and intimidating. She didn't know how I could work there day in day out. When I visited schools in NZ, just dropped in unannounced, it was lovely and loads of the kids said hello to me as I walked through the school. Wouldn't happen in the schools of my experience in the UK.... surly glances is all you would get. (This sound like a sweeping statement. It's not meant to be as I know there are some really lovely kids in UK schools, sad thing is they just seem to get lost amongs it all)

I'm well aware that there are hard schools in NZ but in the UK I would say there are far more. I think it would be a real eye opener for people to visit the average secondary school in the UK during a lunch hour. The last school I worked in had to spend thousands fencing the place off to stop the drug dealers coming into school. The sad thing is I know that the schools I’ve worked in are easy compared to some real inner-city comps.

There’s a primary school not far from where I live and they just can’t keep the teachers. Not surprising when on a regular basis the teachers are physically attacked by the pupils.

[Diny]

I think you mean previous Diny :laugh
Im not picking,I just saw the funny side of that or is it my warped mind


Ha !!!!! I guess I did mean previous but pervious sounds far more exciting !!!!

[Diny]

I guess I won't ever know what it's like to have kids at senior school in the UK, but my experiences of having children in primary UK education is a million miles removed from the stories I'm reading here. Not saying I don't believe what I read, I DO !!!! I take it all on board and thank my lucky stars that my boys weren't 'part of it'.

I shall probably get barracked from all sides here - but we only ever seem to discuss comprehensive schools in highly populated areas. What about the grammar schools, high schools, public schools etc. It just seems that people use the 'bad reputation' comp schools as the default when talking about UK education. They may well be in the majority - but they're not the ONLY schools.

Saying that UK secondary schools are full of badly behaved, drug dealing thugs with no manners and not 2 brain cells to bump together sounds as alien to me as saying that NZ schools are going to turn kids into well balanced, polite, highly educated young adults.

I know I irk people with my views on UK/NZ education, but sweeping general statements irk me. I know people find it hard to understand, but I really can't - no matter how hard I try - see how their school life here is any better than back home.

As for NZ teachers in the UK. There's a teacher at my boys school who went on his OE last Christmas and got a teaching post in the UK. His reports are very different - he just loves it. He plans to go back as soon as he can.

Anyway - rant over. Guess I need to become the silent minority cos there's no way I'm ever going to fathom this one out.

I know there's no right or wrong viewpoints .... just VERY different ones.

Diny

[Trigirl]

The only experience I have of UK education is my own. I have no kids and no intention of having any - so it doesn't factor in our decision making. so this is just intended as descriptive and maybe a contrast to some other views

i went to a comprehensive school in a medium size cheshire village. we looked at the local grammar schools but even with a scholarship they were too expensive for mum and dad to commit to for 7 years. unfortunately the local comprehensive remains the only choice for most people.

i got a not bad education. i was quite badly bullied but never in any serious danger. there were violent incidents but they were pretty isolated (a good mate had his jaw broken the day before our GCSE's started and had to sit them all in hospital!)

we had a school playing field (its still there) and a gym, we had cookery lessons, music lessons and generally a rounded education. but it was a pretty average one. it was a big school, understaffed with big classes (35-40) and all the teachers could possibly do was provide lowest common denominator stuff. if you were interested or god forbid got ahead of where the lesson plan said you should be you got sent to the library to entertain yourself. we had occasional inspirational teachers - and i will remember them forever - but mostly not.

at 16 when choosing a-levels i expressed an interest in studying maths at cambridge. i was told it was "not for the likes of us" and the headmistress refused to sign a reference for me. i needed to sit further maths a-level, the school wouldn't let me. one other kid in my year wanted to do it to so we dropped out of maths classes and studies by ourselves and taught each other. i barely went to school in my a-level years - maybe 6 hours a week max?

so yes - it wasn't a terrible education, it wasn't a great one. it was pretty average. i don't recognise the more extreme violence and i'm very grateful for that, but i also don't see it when people talk about UK education "pushing" kids. if only.

[willsken]

I know I irk people with my views on UK/NZ education, but sweeping general statements irk me. I know people find it hard to understand, but I really can't - no matter how hard I try - see how their school life here is any better than back home.

Diny

I don't think I make any sweeping statements about the UK schools. I am more than happy to say there are some really great schools out there. I can think of 2 in Cardiff off the top of my head. One is a state school in a really good catchment area and the other is a private school. Fantastic schools but my kids will never have access to them. This is the point I have always made, the education that my boys have access to. I cannot afford to move to an area where they would have access to one of these great schools. The junior school the boys went to in Machen was fine, no problem. In our area though there are no secondary schools I would be happy with the boys going to.

From speaking to quite a few teachers I just feel the average school in NZ will be a better environment than the average school in the UK. I know from speaking to a head teacher recently that the schools over there are far from perfect, they have the same problems we do, just to a lesser extent.

At the end of the day I’m not there yet and base my knowledge on speaking to others. In 6 months I may be on here saying that things are no different, who knows.

[wilson182]

I know people find it hard to understand, but I really can't - no matter how hard I try - see how their school life here is any better than back home.



I'm the same on this one, In My Own Experience there really is not much in it. However, my school experience hasn't been as bad as Diny's over here. I have had experience of three NZ schools, two primary and one secondary and am more than happy with the curriculum (sp), in my experience, they certainly push the three R's and they also focus on good health which I like. Emily's school has a daily "fruit and fitness" session.

[Diny]

I don't think I make any sweeping statements about the UK schools.


.

Please don't think that statement was aimed at you - it was aimed at this discussion in general.

We all have different experiences and opinions, I value them all. It's sometimes difficult to visualise somebody elses experiences when they are so far removed from your own.

Every point of view is valid, the last thing I want to do is upset anybody, if by 'standing on my soap box' I do this - I apologise.

Hey - if things were so bad over here I wouldn't stay would I?

For us (as a family) - it've very different, some aspects are better - some are worse ...... but at the end of the day - the vast majority are exactly the same.

Diny

[Lupin]

Guess I need to become the silent minority

Firstly; please don't Diny. Although your views on NZ schooling seem to be the minority they offer a very valid alternative view for those of us not yet in NZ. You are quite careful to make it clear that this is your opinion based on your experience and your observations and reflections seem both genuine and rational, so it's not really possible for you to cause offence by disagreeing with the majority view in this manner. Your input is valuable :)

Secondly; I've not been a member of this forum long, nor have I met you but just the thought of you becoming a silent minority on something that you have an opinion on causes me great amusement, in the nicest (seriously, not a dig) possible way :laugh

[Carol]

the thought of you becoming a silent minority on something that you have an opinion on causes me great amusement, in the nicest (seriously, not a dig) possible way :laugh

I've met her....

It aint' gonna happen!
:laugh ;)

[Diny]

Ha!! No really .... I'm a very quiet, shy and retiring person.

Yeah right.

Diny

[Carol]

Ha!! No really .... I'm a very quiet, shy and retiring person.

Diny

yep...me too!
:laugh

[willsken]

Please don't think that statement was aimed at you - it was aimed at this discussion in general.

We all have different experiences and opinions, I value them all. It's sometimes difficult to visualise somebody elses experiences when they are so far removed from your own.

Every point of view is valid, the last thing I want to do is upset anybody, if by 'standing on my soap box' I do this - I apologise.

Hey - if things were so bad over here I wouldn't stay would I?

For us (as a family) - it've very different, some aspects are better - some are worse ...... but at the end of the day - the vast majority are exactly the same.

Diny

Diny you really haven't upset me - I'm far to opinionated and thick skinned for that!! As you say this is a discussion and I really enjoy the the differing points of veiw. Pretty boring on here if we all thought the same thing. :D

[Diny]

Diny you really haven't upset me - I'm far to opinionated and thick skinned for that!! As you say this is a discussion and I really enjoy the the differing points of veiw. Pretty boring on here if we all thought the same thing. :D


That's true Nic

And to show how thick I can be, I've only just realised that you'll be moving close to us. It won't be long before we can maybe 'chew the fat' over some nice food & plonk ..... sounds good eh.

There's alot of the NW crew coming to these parts .... looks like afew parties on the horizon.

See you soon.

[veronica]

I think the diffrences here come from not comparing like for like. Its no good comparing a small village primary school in a 'good' rural area with an innercity one, whether its in NZ or the UK. The same as you can't compare the grammer or private schools with a comprehensive school. the grammer and private schools in the UK are available to such a small percentage of the population, really just the gifted or wealthy, that they don't enter into the choices for most of us.

[willsken]

That's true Nic

And to show how thick I can be, I've only just realised that you'll be moving close to us. It won't be long before we can maybe 'chew the fat' over some nice food & plonk ..... sounds good eh.

There's alot of the NW crew coming to these parts .... looks like afew parties on the horizon.

See you soon.

Sounds pretty good to me!


I think the diffrences here come from not comparing like for like. Its no good comparing a small village primary school in a 'good' rural area with an innercity one, whether its in NZ or the UK. The same as you can't compare the grammer or private schools with a comprehensive school. the grammer and private schools in the UK are available to such a small percentage of the population, really just the gifted or wealthy, that they don't enter into the choices for most of us.


Totally true. The restriction on most people means that where you live and how much money you have is paramount in the type of education you are able to have for your child. Some people would come to the school I work in and think wow, what a great school, others would be horrified.

Half the problems in most comprehensive schools could be greatly helped if it wasn't for the rigid National Curriculum. A lot of problems could be sorted, IMHO, if schools could tailor a curriculum to suit different types of children. Saying that education has to be inclusive and the same for all is damaging a lot of children’s futures.

In NZ the curriculum is not as restricting as in the UK. Children in the UK from wealthier and supportive backgrounds can succeed despite the way things are in schools here. A lot of children come from neither moneyed nor supportive backgrounds and they are the ones that are being failed by our system. I care about these children and love working with them but given the choice of working with them or giving my own children what I feel will be a better chance, then I afraid there is no contest.

[Sam'n'Kelv]

Many thanks to everyone who has responded to my original post. I'm still not entirely sure what to think but I guess, like Diny says, there is good and bad everywhere and you just have to look around for the good. (If Diny didn't say exactly that, I'm sure it was something like it).

I'm pretty sure NZ has to be better than here in Bristol though. I was only yesterday speaking with a teacher who works in a local school where a member of staff was attacked with a tazer stun gun and where a female colleague (attempting to intervene in the attack) was punched in the face. Her jaw was broken and she required reconstructive surgery.

Like you say, good and bad everywhere, but I suspect there might be a little more good in NZ. Here's hoping...

[Diny]

I think the diffrences here come from not comparing like for like. Its no good comparing a small village primary school in a 'good' rural area with an innercity one, whether its in NZ or the UK. The same as you can't compare the grammer or private schools with a comprehensive school. the grammer and private schools .


Totally agree !! However, the point I was trying to make is that 'good' schools do exist - albeit in the minority - I know they make up a rather small part of this discussion but I get frustrated when they get totally ignored.

Just for the record .... I went to a comprehensive school, never got beaten, bashed, offered drugs, persuaded into under age sex or had disgusting morals forced upon me. I came out with a bunch of O and A levels and (like to think) I'm a decent member of society.

Mind you ..... it's 25 years since I left school .... and I'm aware times change. however, a number of my nieces and nephews attend/attended the same school as I went to, they're all good kids, bright, polite and 'balanced'. One of them has just started uni - studying medicine, and another starts uni next year to study to be a vet.

We're living proof that the comprehensive system in the UK isn't all drugs, teacher bashing, knives and bad attitude.

Anyway - I'm even starting to bore myself now.

Diny

[Moorf]

I went to a private school and the drugs there were much better quality than the comp down the road :D

But seriously, something I've noticed here is that the parents are waaaaay more involved in the school activities - there's always a social/school event going on most months here in rural Canterbury.

BUT....

The guy I work for at the garage is an ex-principal at the local High School. Just the other day he was bemoaning the drop in pupils social skills (he does temp teaching these days) and the increase in classroom "violence" outside of the city schools.

Just the other week there was a programme on about 2 west coast teachers in a very small rural school who had to "retire" due to stress because their pupils were being so abusive.

I guess there are good and bad - in Chch, school and their zones appear to be the number one decision maker in where to live for families.

[Diny]

I went to a private school and the drugs there were much better quality than the comp down the road :D

.


Love it !!!!!!

[Caroline and Dave]

This maybe slightly off track here but I would like to tell you about my school reunion which was held in feb this year.
I left school 30 years ago so it was a long time since I last visited my school.
We were invited back to the school for an afternoon while lessons were still on.
The first thing I noticed when entering the school was a large sealed box with a notice above it saying Knife amnesty and asking for knives to be placed in the box. This was by a room which was marked police comunity officer.
Apparently they have a police comunity officer there once a week which I suppose is a good thing but something that was not needed when I was at school.
In the washrooms you could smell that smoking was a regular occurence and by the strong odour not just cigarettes.
School uniform was no more with kids just in normal clothing.. The girls all had jewelery,studs, earrings etc.The corridors were full of kids on mobile phones and there was graffiti on the walls.Discipline seemed zero. It was a bit like watching a st trinians movie. The canteen was just like a fast food service centre.
We then had a meeting with present day teachers and some from the past and it was claimed that although discipline is not as strong as it use to be accademicaly the students were better.
The older teachers were also amazed as to the changes over the years.
I will be the first to admit that I did not go to the best school in the area but in the old days you respected your teacher and never put a foot out of line. Why has this decline been allowed? I later found out that they still have school uniform but have non uniform days once a month.It is supposed to make the kids feel more relaxed.
I have no doubt that there are better schools in the UK than this. This is just my experience

Kindest regards

Dave and Caroline

[veronica]

Quite agree with what you say Diny about there are some good schools and there are some brilliant teachers about too., but area does have a lot to do with it. But a lot of the success of a kids schooling and behaviour has to rest with the parents wherever they are. School is only the place where most kids can be given the opportunity to learn, its up to parents to teach and enable kids to make the most of it. If you have the right parents and put a child in the worst school there is a good chance that child will succeed, take a child with the wrong sort of parents and put them in the best of schools and its likely they will fail. (a bit of a generalisation I know but you get my point) Respect is a word that seems to be sadly lacking where education is concerned, after all 'its free innit'

[Diny]

Quite agree with what you say Diny about there are some good schools and there are some brilliant teachers about too., but area does have a lot to do with it. But a lot of the success of a kids schooling and behaviour has to rest with the parents wherever they are. School is only the place where most kids can be given the opportunity to learn, its up to parents to teach and enable kids to make the most of it. If you have the right parents and put a child in the worst school there is a good chance that child will succeed, take a child with the wrong sort of parents and put them in the best of schools and its likely they will fail. (a bit of a generalisation I know but you get my point) Respect is a word that seems to be sadly lacking where education is concerned, after all 'its free innit'


Agree !!!

[Diny]

This is obviously the kind of disgusting behaviour people are talking about that goes on in UK schools:

A dispute between a former high school teacher who claims he was bullied by students and received no support from management has ended with a cash settlement.


Greg Smith said students in his classes physically assulted him and threatened to falsely expose him as a paedophile and a pervert.


In August Mr Smith told how students at the school waged an abusive physical and verbal campaign against him, which included labelling him a paedophile, a pervert and a homosexual, in and out of the school grounds.


He aslo received a death threat at home during this period, which was reported to the police.


Former teacher David Balfour, who supported Mr Smith at yesterdays hearing, won an out of court settlement in 1992. The system is heavily weighted towards the employer Mr Balfour said.

Mr Balfour was present when Mr Smith was called a paedophile in the street, the students well dressed parents just stood by and smirked. He said that he had never seen such astonishingly unacceptable behaviour.


Another former teacher from the same school, who now works overseas and didn't want his name to be used, told how ganging up on teachers was not uncommon during the early 1990's. I have taught the worst classes I have seen anywhere whilst at that school, I think outsiders have no idea how vulnerable teachers are, how easily isolated, if they do not pretend all is well. Opening your mouth is generally fatal.


*******************

Reports like this are enough to make you sick - what on earth are things coming to?

If anybody wants to read the full report, it's in Wednesday's Manawatu Standard. The school being discussed in Dannevirke High School.

The words frying pan and fire come to mind.

Diny

[Carol]

Dare I say it......
A very good reason not to live there.:uhoh

[Diny]

Dare I say it......
A very good reason not to live there.:uhoh


I knew somebody would say that !!!!

[StevieD]

Yeehaaaa knew it! Duellin' banjo's/deliverance country innit :laugh

Seriously - what is the answer? How are youths coming to such behaviour? It is difficiult to fathom out how standards have slipped so badly. Has the deline in moral standards gone beyond repair when you hear of behaviour like this all the time. Why isn't respect on the agenda any more.
Is it television. film, games, or the chemical laden foods that are thrust upon us now, or has the world just gone completely mad, and the decent people are quickly being swamped by the bad, or maybe is the fact that good behaviour doesn't get reported on, no praise given, but the baddies get all the notice. It is going to take one hell of tough approach to sort out. Kids are now literally being let away with murder, even the police are scared to touch half of them. I think government level action is required on these matters.

[Diny]

or maybe is the fact that good behaviour doesn't get reported on, no praise given, but the baddies get all the notice. .

Well you know Stevie, I've never been one to buy into all the total doom and gloom stories (especially of the UK), I think the above comment has alot of truth behind it.

No getting away from the fact that the WORLD has gone crazy.

I just thought the above news article was a good way of showing that things here are pretty much along the lines as 'back home' - which is sad.

Diny

[Ana&Steve]

The article said the parents stood and smirked while the abuse happened; if blame is being doled out, I'd give the lion's share to the parents. :(
Ana

[willsken]

I applied for a job there!! :confused: :exit

[Diny]

The article said the parents stood and smirked while the abuse happened; if blame is being doled out, I'd give the lion's share to the parents. :(
Ana


Totally agree - there just seems to be one huge breakdown in society, just as much here in NZ as anywhere in the world.