[upnorthkyosa]

I came across this article the other day...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15588698/

WELLINGTON, New Zealand - A maritime warning has been issued after about 100 icebergs were spotted south of New Zealand, some floating in a major ocean shipping lane, officials said.

A New Zealand air force P3 Orion maritime surveillance airplane on routine fisheries patrol in the southern ocean spotted the floating lumps of ice near Auckland Islands, about 160 miles south of South Island.

The largest iceberg was about 1.2 by 0.9 miles and more than 425 feet high, said Orion captain Andy Nielsen.

What do you think about this? How has NZ decided to deal with the problem of global warming?

[StevieD]

Probably stoke up the BBQ's!

[Trigirl]

there was a picture of one of those icebergs in a local london paper a couple of days ago.

[veronica]

Caqn't see anything in the article to suggest that that incidence is a result of global warming, maybe I didn't read it properly but it seemed to me to be saying that this is a normal occurance. we are close to the antarctic here and bits have been breaking off and floating away forever.

As regards global warming and NZ, it seems they make the same noises as the rest of the western world, perhaps with the exception of the states. I am one of the people (minority perhaps) who believes that the world climate is a series of cycles and changes happen. Just think of the pollution that volcanic eruptions put out (I also believe that wanton pollution is wrong)

[katandbob]

they are running a plane out next week to go view them - the mayor was going but when they rescheduled he had to back out....it will leave on the 11th at 8pm (wasnt that yesterday??? - I wonder if it was cancelled again due to the crappy weather we ended up with!....cost $185 each!

alright if you have money to burn I suppose

Kat

[jess]

John - I don't know whether the icebergs have anything to do with global warming, but to answer your question about climate change issues, they talk about it quite a bit on the Kapiti Coast. Check this page (http://www.kapiticoast.govt.nz/Sustainability/ClimateChange.htm) for the council's info on how they think it will affect this area of NZ and what planning is taking place.

[anna_c]

they are running a plane out next week to go view them - the mayor was going but when they rescheduled he had to back out....it will leave on the 11th at 8pm (wasnt that yesterday??? - I wonder if it was cancelled again due to the crappy weather we ended up with!....cost $185 each!

Somewhat ironic if it is the result of climate change :laugh

Whilst not government organised, this (http://www.vuw.ac.nz/home/about_victoria/news_article.asp?ArticleID=1042151255) festival gave an idea of the types of actions the government is endorsing a) encouraging power companies to use more sustainable forms of power generation (Greenpeace has been encouraging people to switch to Meridian, apparently the most environmentally friendly power co) and b) individual actions (eg fitting insulation, turning off lights etc)

Recently, a more radical approach seems to have generated support, as indicated by the ClimAction festival which occupied Queen St in AKL, calling for 'System Change not Climate Change'. You can read more about them here (http://climaction.blogspot.com/) .

[katandbob]

Somewhat ironic if it is the result of climate change :laugh

(Greenpeace has been encouraging people to switch to Meridian, apparently the most environmentally friendly power co) and b) individual actions (eg fitting insulation, turning off lights etc)

.

Ha BUT Then Meridian have put up their prices by 6.4%!!! my last bill came in at over $200! and all I use it for is cooking heating the water and the kids radiators in their bedrooms - we freeze!

I am going to look into solar or wind power or both...when i have the funds to pay for it!

but at the rate of grocerys and electric it will be a long wait

Kat....OH and your not allowed to generate any other form of electric when suscribed to Meridian - it says so in the pamphlet! :confused: well What they dont know..........
Ha :p

[sarahw]

Funnily enough there was an article in the Weekend edition of the Dom Post this weekend suggesting that we do stuff like burn our rubbish etc. to bring on global warming since the weather's so bloomin' cold this year!

Sorry, but going to add my bit (I work for an environmental organisation)Global warming isn't really the correct term - climate change is - in some places it will get colder!!!... But overall the world's global mean surface temperature will increase. Lets just hope this isn't the start of a big freeze here!!

Have heard reports before about icebergs of NZ's coast so I assume its something that happens from time-to-time anyway. However, having studied Antarctica's ice shelf it seems to be something that's happening a bit too often on quite a large scale.

I agree with the comment by Veronica that things happen in cycles (we should be headed into another ice age if things were working correctly!!), but just there's nothing on record looking at all the stats (as I have done for the last 6 years in great detail) to say that things have changed so dramatically in such a short space of time before. Pretty scary stuff!!

[StevieD]

I think in all seriousness that the weather in the world does indeed work in cycles. Man as a species has only been on the earth for such a short period of time, but now has the capability to use ever improving science and technology to measure/monitor the world around us. Maybe there is an element of "global warming", espcially with the pollutants being spewed out by industry. But I think, and hope, that the world is quite resilient. As mentioned, volcanoes emit a huge amount of stuff into the earth's atmosphere, and they have been going long before man appeared. So whilst not being ignorant of the pollution, we can do our best to reduce it, because it is in everybody's interest to do so.

[Avalon]

But I think, and hope, that the world is quite resilient.
The world IS quite resiliant , and no matter what we do to screw it up - it will survive (until the sun blows up or a Death Star approaches anyway). The problem is that our children may not be so resilliant, or thier children, or thier children. Already, species are dying out because of the climate changes. The coral reefs are bleaching and dying. Australia is suffering a long term drought that is turning farmland to desert. And the Gulf stream is slowing down. The earth will survive - but there may not be much left here to notice or care if we dont stop the changes somehow. It wont be us that pays - but it does have to be us that takes responsibility - however we can (and I know from experience of trying that this is incredibly hard to do).

The world does work in cycles - or it did till we came along. Now the cycles are out of whack, and that is down to us and our effect on the world. Without us, the world would carry on its cycles of cooling and warming. With us, it cant do that anymore.

"An Inconvenient Truth" shows this way better than any of us (or certainly I) can. The numbers showing what is going on are quite frankly staggering and clearly shows that we are so far past a "cycle" that its really not funny. You can watch the slideshow if you dont want to go to the movies to see it - but it is remarkably educational, very well done, and well worth seeing.

ftp://ia300133.us.archive.org/1/items/molemedia20040115_gore/molemedia20040115_gore.asf

[Avalon]

I am going to look into solar or wind power or both...when i have the funds to pay for it!


Kat,

If you do manage to get any info on this - can you let me know. Im constanly hitting a brick wall trying to get people to even talk to me about it. Not sure where im going wrong - but companies just laugh at us for wanting to put solar or wind in :confused: Thats when they bother to talk to us at all!

[suebeenz]

Avalon you said it! :cheers

After going to see 'An Inconvenient Truth' in the theatres, I feel like I should chime a bit too. The film, in case you haven't heard of it before, is based on a slideshow presentation Al Gore has been giving for years, about global warming. Here's another site where you can watch a trailer for it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUiP6dqPynE

Here's a website listing some simple, practical things you can do to help:
http://www.climatecrisis.net/takeaction/

I liked in the film when Churchill is quoted:
"The era of procrastination of half-measures of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to its close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences."

Anyhow, it's coming out on DVD Nov 21, so it should hopefully show in the video rental stores soon (I just saw it here in the theatre last month). I know I was dreading watching it, all doom and gloom, but it does offer hope. I highly recommend checking it out for more info on the science, and a couple shocking political maneuvers, that somehow ends up being entertaining. I'm pretty sure that if you watch it, it'll change the way you think about global warming (and hopefully act).

[Trigirl]

Meridian have put up their prices by 6.4%!!!

this one does always make me laugh slightly (and in a get me out of here sort of way!)
powergen who supply our gas and electricity have put prices up by 107% since i moved into this house 3 years ago including up by over 24% in march and another 18% in august this year!

[Moorf]

Am I the only person here who is fed up with all the talk abou global warming / climate change etc? I feel like since the mid-80's when I was a Greenpeace member etc etc that nothing has changed and quite frankly it's really low down on my list of priorities these days. I'm more likely to comment that "I won't be around to see it anyway" than be pro-active. :confused:

[Avalon]

The people working to find a cure for cancer or Aids also aren't likely to see it in thier own lifetime. Hopefully they will keep trying.

It probabaly is tiresome to keep hearing about it. But if we dont do something - then it wont go away. And leaving it up to the next generation(s) to sort out the mess we have caused is hardly fair.

Nothing changes if we dont make it change. It sucks - but there it is I guess. Its not up to everyone else to fix this - its up to us to do what we can.

Hope that makes sense :o

[jess]

The world IS quite resiliant , and no matter what we do to screw it up - it will survive (until the sun blows up or a Death Star approaches anyway). The problem is that our children may not be so resilliant, or thier children, or thier children. Already, species are dying out because of the climate changes. The coral reefs are bleaching and dying...

Well said Avalon!

[Moorf]

Oh don't get me wrong, I do care but the govts and yes, even Joe Public, are (mainly) all talk - talk talk talk - and nothing gets done. After a while I think I just shut it out - like white noise.

Can't help but think that until things get critical and societies are deprived of something dear to them that the talk will continue... looking forward to watching the "Inconvenient Truth" DVD when it comes out.

[Avalon]

Oh don't get me wrong, I do care but the govts and yes, even Joe Public, are (mainly) all talk - talk talk talk - and nothing gets done. After a while I think I just shut it out - like white noise.
.
Ah - that makes more sense! Quite see what you mean. And i do know the feeling. Ive been trying to make some changes since we saw this film, and to be honest - its very hard going. Changing lightbulbs and so on is the easy bit (and we had already done that sort of thing anyway). But trying to make big changes - its like rolling a boulder up hill. Especially in "clean & green" NZ. And especailly with a dad who pooh-poohs the whole thing living here :uhoh

How on earth are we to deal with our effect on the planet given the amount of air travel we have done for instance? We have come up with a plan (bit hazy at the moment) to use some of our investment savings to plant a load of trees in our paddock. I was going to give the money to a tree planting charity - but we have the land to do it right here. Its not much - but its a start.

But my feeling is we have to keep trying. I am personally completely sick of trying to find a company to talk to us about solar power. I cant even get 2 local companies to come and quote for solar hot water :mad: But every so often I give it another bash.

I know this might sound trite - but I do believe in the power of one man to change the world. It doesnt always take governments or "industry". It takes us. If we dont do whatever we can about this - we can hardly condemn the US or Australia for refusing to sign the Kyoto Treaty.

No matter how tough this is to sort out, and no matter how insurmountable it seems, we are the ones causing the problem, and we are the ones who should sort it out. Thats just, and fair. We just cannot leave it to others to sort it out for us.

Hxxx (+ a glass of Gladstone Rose "hic" :cheers )

[Avalon]

Ok, its taken a while - but ive found some pictures showing historical temperatures. I was just as cynical about climate change - and just as willing to put the current situation down to cyclical changes - and accept that this is just the way the earth does things. More than anything else I have seen or hear - there are a couple of slides in the Al Gore presentation that blew me away (and my pre-conceptions).

I cant get copies of those exact slides - but I have found some similar shots. I hope they help put things in context :o

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9924/tempchanges2rb5.gif

This shows the cycles from the year 1000 to 2000 which are measured, and then projection from there on based on the status quo continuing. Prior to 1860, the temperatue is measured by looking at ice core samples and tree rings. Since then - its measured by thermometers round the world.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/637/fig1co2andtemp2smhh7.gif

This one shows two things: 1stly the link between CO2 in the atmosphere and temperature, and 2ndly, that we are already way above a "cycle". And this goes back 400000 years. Al Gore's slides go back way further than that.

[Moorf]

You see that's just my point - these graphs were around 20 yrs ago, or similarly projected figures were anyway - and yet here we are, 20 yrs down the line, little seems to have changed we're using more and more the earth's resources and chucking more and more crap into the atmosphere. I hear of how emissions are being cut here and there and on another channel I see countries polluting their rivers and chucking even more crap into the atmosphere.

I wish I could also believe in the "it only takes one" philosophy but I don't think I have the faith I should in others to bother to be as proactive as I should... does that make sense (I've had a few mojito's this evening *hic*).

Very defeatist of me, I know :o

[StevieD]

The more that things change, the more they stay the same! I mean that in a political sense, sure, they talk the talk, but what is actually done to stop this?

People often feel helpless on this sort of thing, I mean what can you do to hurt a politician? But are the general populace that concerned about it? I mean, surely it is more important to know about what some washed up "celeb" was up to in a night club than that other global warming rubbish?
And politicians must rub their hands with glee, especially as it keeps them out of the headlines. Let's face it, the only time that politics becomes interesting is when the budget comes around or some MP has been caught with his pants down with some lady of the night or on Clapham Common.

There is only so much you as an individual can do. Energy saving light bulbs - yes, solar power, if you can afford it, water conservation measures.
But one of the major culprits of global warming in my book is rampant consumerism, yes the rise in flight has surely done a lot, but hasn't this replaced the coal burning from the past. Saying that, the fly anywhere for a penny airlines haven't helped I suppose.

Having just been stuck for over an hour in the local Asda on a Sunday morning getting cake ingredients, I feel that I can comment on this. (Couldn't move at all, it was getting to almost Xmas levels at times)The aisles are full of items wrapped in plastics, brightly coloured packaging (too much for the miniscule product inside), or masses of cardboard printed with a magnified version of the product.
I tend to shy away from that stuff as much as possible anyway. Packaging is a big gripe with me, and who hasn't struggled to get toys out of packaging for the kids?

We have a lot to do, and I suppose big oaks grow out of little acorns, so I will do my bit, and write to the minister to let them know how I feel on this matter, hey, if we all did it on this forum that is a lot of letter!! :)

[upnorthkyosa]

The disintigration of the Antarctic ice shelf and global warming are instrinsically tied. When I saw the article, I was suddenly reminded that NZ must also be experiencing effects from global warming. Over here, the other side of the world, I've noticed quite a bit in my lifetime. For example, we don't have nearly as many -40 days as we did when I was a kid.

Anyway, its nice to see a country like yours doing something a little more progressive regarding this issue.

[StevieD]

-40!!! :eek: I know what you mean though, it is now well into November and I have petunias and loblia still flowering in my front garden. Winter pansies are also flowering so got a good little display,but it is unseasonably warm.

[sarahw]

Stevie great post! This has actually turned into a v. interesting thread. You're right about consumerism & with China becoming more of a consumer society day by day I think things are only going to get worse...

I also agree if you make changes as an individual (i.e. vote with your feet with what products you buy, i.e. buy NZ grown/manufactured goods (if you live in NZ) to ensure less miles, eco friendly bulbs, eco friendly washing up liquid, washing powder etc. refuse plastic bags & take your own re-useable cloth bags shopping with you, stop using disposable nappies etc. like Avalon says plant trees or pay a tree-planting org. if you're flying etc. to ameliorate the carbon emissions then you can make a change.

Many people can make a difference together & if many people stopped buying imported food etc. you will get the supermarkets/shops to change what is available. The consumer often forgets just how much power they have as a large group. However, to make big changes it does need Govt. buy in and international agreements. There's no denying it - climate change is in the news daily here, but whilst climate change is such a long-term issue, govt's are mainly focussed on their short term in charge or getting voted in to the next term so concentrate on short-term goals i.e, taxes to appeal to the voter rather than the long-term issues - that's something that really needs to be addressed.

[upnorthkyosa]

Reading this thread has been refreshing for my spirit. It is nice to see that many kiwis, regardless of whether or not they think global warming is a natural or human caused event, will still err on the side of caution. I wonder if the isolation of island life ties people together differently? It just seems as if you guys are more willing to look out for each other even with an issue like this.

This does not happen in the US. If you post this thread on any random BB, you can expect all sorts of vitriol and accusations from people. Many people in the US see global warming as a communist UN plot and those that believe in it obviously hate America and/or are communists. Crazy crazy crazy people up here...

[Avalon]

I wish I could also believe in the "it only takes one" philosophy but I don't think I have the faith I should in others to bother to be as proactive as I should... does that make sense (I've had a few mojito's this evening *hic*).

Very defeatist of me, I know :o

Makes perfect sense. Depressing - but perfect :wah

I guess the way im looking at it - is that this is exactly the reason most people do nothing. Why should they - noone else is going to do it? At the end of the day - does it really matter what everyone else is doing (or not doing) about climate change?

We all know most westerners are still consuming non-stop. But how many of us on here just dont do that anymore? How many of us are already refusing to play the game, and have decided to do something different? Not to use as many resources? Not to shop till we drop? Not to give a toss about celebrity shenanagans (SP?)? We havent let the fact that most people are still on thier hamster wheel stop us from getting the hell off it.

Same with climate change. You dont have to optomistic about what someone else is doing - but you do have to decide whether its persoanlly important to you or not. If it is - then keep going. (and live in hope - Im doing what I can - its probably not much - but you can be assured that you know at least 1 person who is trying! :D )

Hugs

Hxxx

[veronica]

OK on the subject of Solar stuff..............we met a guy through the ski shop who is from the UK who is a solar installer and a really nice bloke. the guys name is Gladstone Watt and his landline no. is 03 358 3172, mob. 021583170 web address is www.sesl.co.nz
Unfortunately we got to met him after finding it so difficult to get info on solar stuff that we had shelved the idea and gone for gas. we had been looking into solar panels on the roof of the hostel that would not only heat the water but also store any surplus in batteries or be shunted back into the grid. No one we spoke to was at all helpful and a couple just said it couldn't be done. the batteries woould have to be huge, they hadn't got the technology yet etc.
Shame we didn't get to meet him first because he is very straightforward and helpful. we are keeping him in mind for future projects though.

I hope that you get to use him, take care Veronica

[Avalon]

Thank you veronica - will get onto that this week.

Cheers

[StevieD]

Thanks Veronica. I like the idea the Greeks have, just use the sun to heat the water. Black panels with water trickling over them, heating it in the process. All the warm water is then stored in tanks. Simple, only takes a water pump and gravity. There will always have to be a fossil fuel standby (for when that long white cloud gets in the way!) but it is a start.

[suebeenz]

One really simple thing we could do, is encourage others to see the 'Inconvenient Truth' movie (again, I think out this month on DVD), or perhaps host a dinner and movie tonight. It helped move me from the 'despair' to 'hope' phase.

Now if only US and Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kyoto_Protocol_participation_map_2005.png) would join Kyoto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol) . All you US and Australian expats, start writing your politicians!

(not that Kyoto is the solution - but it would help)

With all the huricanes etc hitting the US, and the droughts and lack of ozone over Australia, sorta baffling why they are holding out. If money is the reason, the day will come when the math will prevail, but by then it might be too late.

[miep]

Avalon, have you tried Negawatt Resources Ltd ? They're at:
130 Hutt Rd Lower Hutt PO Box 38 028 Wellington Mail Cntr Wellington 0-4-939 0313
Ask for Grant or Barry.

We got our solar hot water system from them and are extremely pleased with how well it works(3 hrs from cold to shower temp in winter!). I did a lot of research, I also wanted wind energy etc and, like you, found it very difficult to get any real info. I found these guys to be well informed and enthousiastic.

Good Luck,

[miep]

Oh yes, forgot to say that we try as much as possible to do our bit. Not just solar hot water but avoiding ridiculous packaging, buying local etc. I try not to be influenced by other people not caring, if everybody thought like that nothing would ever happen. So we will just continue to do our bit and keep our fingers crossed that other people will think in the same way.
Make any sense?

[montana]

This does not happen in the US. If you post this thread on any random BB, you can expect all sorts of vitriol and accusations from people. Many people in the US see global warming as a communist UN plot and those that believe in it obviously hate America and/or are communists. Crazy crazy crazy people up here...[/QUOTE]

Hi John,
Very interesting and thought provoking thread.

Before I start, I am going to get on my soapbox (quickly). I want to point out that this is a general comment. Your post just gives me another opportunity to say it. :) I noted that you said "many" Americans and not all, and I agree with you. But were there not people that cared about global warming that posted too? I know I keep harping on about it, but I do get upset when I continue to see Americans being stereotyped into one view. I completely understand being disillusioned or angry about the state of affairs in America and wanting to make a better life. I have absolutely no problem with that. I just think that stereotypes are never helpful (and yes I am guilty of doing it too) and never lead to much good. And that's why I keep saying it...

That being said, obviously you have posted such a thread and been hit back with vitriol and accusations. And I agree that right now there are probably not enough individuals in America (or many other Western countries) that want to take personal responsibility to make any change which is very unfortunate. I think it is great that you do care and that you want to take personal responsibility. I actually think that is the only way to change the world.

Governments can take a more active role in incentivizing responsible environmental behavior (ie tax credits for renewable energy sources/alternative fuels, increased funding for public transportation, or incentivizing living in already existing population centers to decrease urban sprawl.) BUT, the government can only make responsible environmental choices more attractive. It cannot force individuals to take advantage of the incentives. Enough individuals must decide to change their consumption patterns to actually make it stick.

But it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I think this is a big reason that the more extreme environmental groups have trouble effecting change. Most people will realistically only make small changes. We are not all going to start living in tents and growing our own gardens. But even small changes have to make some difference. If more people cared then even small changes would help....

[sarahw]

Suebeenz, Its not that Australia & US won't do anything about climate change - they are happy to set targets to meet, its just that neither of them agree that developping countries such as China won't have targets under Kyoto for a certain period of time - they believe that all countries should have targets from the word go regardless of how much they've polluted in the past or whether their economy can afford it...

Unfortunately, international agreements & international governance are wonderful ideas in theory but in practice they are a time-consuming nightmare, highly political & end up from a great plan turning into a highly watered-down final agreement...

What we need is for them to agree 'OK so its our fault collectively as the developped world that we're going into this situation, and whilst China etc. are starting to make a big impact, we (the developped world, who I might add can afford it & have the technology) should show the way to the developping world & get the ball rolling...'

[Moorf]

So why is it that technology such as solar heating isn't readily accessible? I don't hear house building companies crowing about how you can have solar heating etc. I think I'm one of those who would certainly put more effort into converting to that sort of system but for whom it seems that only those with a lot of money can afford to put it in to action.

Overall, however, I just have toooo much going on in my own life to worry about to even begin to think of trying to save the planet - sorry, not a popular view I'm sure, but the day I have enough time and energy to devote to being able to be choosy about packaging and where my heating comes from I'll be right up there with everyone else.

(Methinks I fell out of the grumpy tree this morning and got hit by several misery branches on the way down.... :D)

[suebeenz]

Here's one of many news links that i could find, talking about why the US won't sign (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kyoto/) the Kyoto protocol.

Let me quote some of the relevant parts:

The American decision was not enough to kill Kyoto. One of President Bush's first acts was to announce that he would not send Kyoto to the Senate for ratification - mainly because the deal had little chance of being passed. He also argued Kyoto would be bad for the U.S. economy and would be ineffective, because major developing nations like India and China were not covered by its provisions.
...
Still, no country on the planet is responsible for producing as much greenhouse gas as the United States. Without significant action from the Americans, Kyoto's targets would be difficult to reach.


I'm not here to flame the US by any means. Most americans didn't vote for bush. :laugh

Here's a story of a US City (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15651688/) trying to make a difference.



Voters in a Colorado university town nestled in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains have passed the country’s first municipal carbon tax to fight global warming.
...
The money will fund energy audits for homes and businesses and visits by energy experts to advise homeowners how to save energy through means such as energy efficient lighting and insulation.



Moorf about nobody talking about Solar power as a possibilty while building? I know in the US, this is really starting to catch on in the West. I see billboards all over the place, ads in the paper, and companies are springing up as specialists (in fact, i know someone that works for such a company). What I'd like to know, is when is double glaze glass going to be standard here in NZ ;)

[jo-and-jeff]

In general, the citizens of the US are supportive of the Kyoto Agreement (see the list of US Cities which have endorsed it (http://www.seattle.gov/mayor/climate/quotes.htm)).

But many US industries do NOT support it, because it would mean that they have to expend huge amounts of money bringing their business into compliance: car companies would have to make their vehicles meet strict emission standards, and manufacturing companies would have to greatly reduce emissions from their plants.

Unfortunately, in the U.S. the government is largely run by businesses, who have contributed huge sums of money to candidates (both Republican and Democrat) to keep such emissions-reducing regulations from being enacted.

Given that the U.S. produces around 25% of the world's emissions, its refusal to join the Kyoto accord is inexcusable. Sadly, that doesn't change the reality...

:(

Jo

[montana]

I'm not sure the Kyoto Protocol is the answer either. I did my last paper on this in law school and after 45 pages still didn't really know what I thought about it!

Politically not ratifying the treaty gives the world another reason to dislike America. However, practically it does have some problems. Estimates vary widely but the U.S. Dept of Energy (1998) put the cost at $64 billion per year to meet the targets the U.S. was assigned. However, the Council of Economic Advisers (White House) that same year said the costs could be reduced by about 60%. Not sure who to believe....

The U.S. does have several programs in place (spent about $23 billion) on research and technology re: climate change but if none of those findings are ever implemented into measures to effect change than I'm not sure what good it is doing. And it could be argued that compared to other spending thats not much. Especially since the U.S. is responsible for more emissions than any other industrialised country. The US belongs to the Asia Pacific Partnership (Japan, Republic of Korea, Australia, China, India, U.S) which focuses on better technology. I have no idea what the status of the group is at this point. Can anyone tell me?

Also, China is not subject to emissions targets even though greenhouse gases of developing countries are expected to surpass those of developed countries early in the 21st century. And since emissions are set by country rather than per capita, future generations of countries w/ increasing populations bear a larger burden than those w/ decreasing populations. Finally because some "economies in transition" countries (ie Russia) are allowed "trading units" it allows them a windfall.
These might sound like passing the buck excuses and maybe they are but they are not something you frequently hear about.

Can't speak much to Australia except that it is responsible for a relatively small amount under the Protocol - about 1.4% of emissions overall. Ironically though it is the largest emitter per capita.

Its a difficult one to nail down. I do agree that responsibility has to be taken - but practically coming up w/ something workable is the real challenge. Again, I think it largely comes down to personal responsibility (with government incentives). If everyone cared a little bit more it really wouldnt be an issue.

[jess]

I like it that the Kapiti Council offers this bit...

"There are many things you can do to help reduce New Zealand’s impact on climate change including:

recycling
car-pooling
installing energy efficient light bulbs
ensuring printers and photocopiers are set to duplex
insulating your hot water cylinder
washing clothes in cold water
switching off appliances when they're not in use.
BRANZ offers a free guide with practical tips you can use (http://www.branz.co.nz/branzltd/pdfs/ClimateFriend04.pdf) at home and the office to reduce your greenhouse gas emissions and save money at the same time. It also has a New Zealand climate change calculator so you can work out your carbon footprint."


I'm such a cheerleader for the Kapiti Coast :o but they do seem to take it really seriously here.

[montana]

[QUOTE=suebeenz]Here's one of many news links that i could find, talking about why the US won't sign (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kyoto/) the Kyoto protocol.


SueBeenz - minor point but I know this b/c I did the same thing. The U.S actually did sign the treaty (under Clinton) but it was never ratified by the Senate. Just picky legal semantics. :)

[suebeenz]

SueBeenz - minor point but I know this b/c I did the same thing. The U.S actually did sign the treaty (under Clinton) but it was never ratified by the Senate. Just picky legal semantics. :)

Ya got me there. ;)

By the way, sounds like Canada is ditching Kyoto, and going for less strict goals.


Is Canada still planning to meet its Kyoto commitments?

In a word - no. The election of a Conservative government in 2006 brought about a reversal in Canada's climate change policy. The specific emissions reduction targets of the Kyoto Protocol - at least as far as Canada was concerned - would be abandoned.



More gory details here (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kyoto/timeline.html)

But at any rate, never meant to suggest that Kyoto was 'the' solution. Certainly every bit helps though (and for the US, that 'bit' would be a whole lot).

[Avalon]

So why is it that technology such as solar heating isn't readily accessible? I don't hear house building companies crowing about how you can have solar heating etc. I think I'm one of those who would certainly put more effort into converting to that sort of system but for whom it seems that only those with a lot of money can afford to put it in to action.

Overall, however, I just have toooo much going on in my own life to worry about to even begin to think of trying to save the planet - sorry, not a popular view I'm sure, but the day I have enough time and energy to devote to being able to be choosy about packaging and where my heating comes from I'll be right up there with everyone else.

(Methinks I fell out of the grumpy tree this morning and got hit by several misery branches on the way down....

{{{{HUGS}}}}


I was mulling over this on the way into welly (in my planet killer car :o - will look at Hybrids when we need to change!)

You know - all this climate change stuff is actually really very new to me. I was such a cynic about it, and while ive recycled for years - its more becuase it just made sense rather than to do anything about global warming. So for me - now that i "get it" if you like, i want to try and do something. But if id known all this 20 years ago - and seen those graphs, and STILL nothing has changed - yeah - I think id be just as disallusioned (Sp?) If in 20years from now - people still dont want to accept it - same thing. Im gonna be sick of it.

And this solar stuff - dont get me started :wah The UK will fund HALF your solar generation setup. And I understand that B+Q are now selling home kits for solar water at £1500 a pop. NZ? You can get $300 toward solar hot water. Thats it. In a country where most people cant afford shoes!!!!

And yep - saving the planet takes energy. You aint got it - you cant do it. Theres time to worry about that when you have got the energy. It wont blow up tomorrow, and in the meantime - when I get to that point - Ill plant a tree for you :) Just because you were switched on enough to know this stuff before Id even heard the term Global Warming :)

Hxxx

[Avalon]

Avalon, have you tried Negawatt Resources Ltd ? They're at:
130 Hutt Rd Lower Hutt PO Box 38 028 Wellington Mail Cntr Wellington 0-4-939 0313
Ask for Grant or Barry.

We got our solar hot water system from them and are extremely pleased with how well it works(3 hrs from cold to shower temp in winter!). I did a lot of research, I also wanted wind energy etc and, like you, found it very difficult to get any real info. I found these guys to be well informed and enthousiastic.

Good Luck,

Thank you - will do. Im getting more infor out of this thread than Ive found in ages.

Cheers guys!

[Avalon]

ensuring printers and photocopiers are set to duplex
.

Sorry to be thick - but HOW does that help ????? Im guessing it uses less electricity ????

Hxxx (brain gone to mush :o )

[Trigirl]

and less paper?

[jess]

ensuring printers and photocopiers are set to duplex...

Ya know... after I posted that I realized I had no idea what set to duplex even means. :o But the other stuff on the list sounded good. ;)

---

On a separate note, they've been having a series of speakers about different aspects of climate change lately in Kapiti, and at one they were talking about how they're working with a school here to duplicate a program in Auckland, where they did a survey and found out all the reasons why kids and their parents would choose not to have the kids walk or bike to school -- things like a particular dangerous intersection, security issues, narrow footpaths, problem dogs in the neighborhood, etc. -- and then they work to fix all those issues to encourage a situation where fewer vehicles are pulling up to the school at the beginning and end of the day. ... So ok they won't save the world single handedly, but I thought it was a good thing that can be done locally, isn't coersive, and tries to send the message to kids that what they do matters. Numbers of cars went down at the Auckland school... we'll see how it does when they're finished here. They hope to expand it to more local schools in future.

[StevieD]

As a matter of interest, just looked up the cost of solar heating panels here in UK. For a DIY kit, the cost is £2500!! (approx 4,780US or 7,200NZD) This is for one panel plus associated pumps/cabling/piping etc.
This is the reason why more people do not fit it because of the cost.

[Moorf]

As a matter of interest, just looked up the cost of solar heating panels here in UK. For a DIY kit, the cost is £2500!! (approx 4,780US or 7,200NZD) This is for one panel plus associated pumps/cabling/piping etc.
This is the reason why more people do not fit it because of the cost.

My thoughts exactly.... :)

[veronica]

if 'they' had put the same money and research into solar/alternative energy that 'they' put into nuclear there wouldn't be a problem now.

[Avalon]

But on the other hand:

If "we" had put the time and energy and willingness to do without all our luxuries, or to now use o lot less energy and resourses, then "we" would not have screwed the climate up.

Its not an SEP. (Somebody else's problem).

Heres some solutions: All relatively easy to do, do not involve forking out a fortune on solar panels; burying heads in sands or blaming everyone else :exit

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4277/10things1sa2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[montana]

Avalon you may have already seen this website but it seems to have lots of info on it re: alternative energy sources. :D

www.energize.co.nz


I am also irate at Meridian but that's another topic. :(

[suebeenz]

Not sure if you guys saw the article in the tribune (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10410827) with a story about Al Gore's recent stop by Auckland.

...A weekend poll found 58 per cent of New Zealanders are concerned about climate change and Prime Minister Helen Clark has cited Mr Gore's film An Inconvenient Truth as one factor in raising public consciousness of the risk posed by mounting levels of the greenhouse gases blamed for global warming, and their potential impacts.

Mr Gore, in turn, is impressed by her talk of setting a goal of carbon neutrality, where the country would make no net addition to the level of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere....

[Avalon]

Montana -

Thats a great site. We have tried contacting some of the companies listed before - with absolutely zip effect, but it does give us some other options.

Cheers for the help!

Hxxx

[suebeenz]

In case you missed JubJub's post in the lounge, some comical stuff going on Trademe. They've since pulled the listing from the site, but here's a little news story about it.

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11964-6577375,00.html

"How much does it weigh? I may need to rent a trailer." :laugh

[Jenny & Mark]

Now if only US and Australia would join Kyoto. All you US and Australian expats, start writing your politicians!
(not that Kyoto is the solution - but it would help)

Well said Suebeenz.

And if my country, Canada, actually lives up to its commitments and start taking some serious action instead of consultation until 2050. Canada had a real opportunity to be a world leader and instead it has dropped the ball again.

Mark.

[Jenny & Mark]

I am really glad to see that most of this thread is not ignoring the real problem of climate change. Too many are burying their heads in the sand because acknowledging the problem is too uncomfortable and may require that we admitt that we are all somewhat at fault and need to change our lifestyles.

Mark.

[Ana&Steve]

It is such a difficult topic, (I know it sets my mind reeling) it's no wonder that people bury their heads sometimes.
I've sat and pondered "how to fix the world according to Ana", and too many times I run into basic human rights problems and "Big Brother" issues. For example, I thought that if people worldwide started having less children, then that would ease some natural resources. Can you imagine what would happened if the government asked people to have less kids? (Much less ordering it!) So many religions abhor all birth control, and many encourage large families. And well, no one religious or not, likes a bully government, telling them how to manage their families!
So I think, ya we need to use less oil, recycle, and spay/neuter our pets....oh ya, they've been trying to get everyone to do that for 20+ years. Instead, (in the US, anyway) we buy SUVs, paper plates, and $5500 "show" dogs that we'll make our money back by breeding to the neighbor's cocker spaniel! (gross generalizations :D )
I finally figured out that if I can't make 5 friends agree on pizza toppings, there is no way one solution will heal the world. So, we'll move to the corner of the world, with a larger population of recyclers, and try to save one small section of the world. :) People are such copy-cats, I'm sure it will catch on worldwide eventually!
Ana
PS Yay personal responsibility!

[Moorf]

I finally figured out that if I can't make 5 friends agree on pizza toppings, there is no way one solution will heal the world.



:D Brilliant!

[suebeenz]

[snip].. in the US.... buy ... paper plates ...

I've heard the argument that paper plates are actually better for the environment than washing and cleaning plates. Despite all the rage in the past, I've also heard the argument that paper bags are better than plastic (although much better to bring your own). I've also heard that recycling is detrimental to the environment - recycling of glass in particular. I wish I knew more of the facts so I would have something to say when I hear these arguments.

A couple months ago I noticed that that show B.S. had a show about recycling but somehow I managed to miss it. (Must NZ TV really shuffle their scheduling so much? :roll ).

When's Honda going to release that new clean burning diesel Civic in NZ? Doesn't sound like they have any plans to.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/honda_ceo_new_h.html


Ana, no anchovies please! :D

[suebeenz]

And if my country, Canada, actually lives up to its commitments and start taking some serious action instead of consultation until 2050. Canada had a real opportunity to be a world leader and instead it has dropped the ball again.

Yeah I was disappointed to read that Canada appears to be back peddling.

[Ana&Steve]

I've heard the argument that paper plates are actually better for the environment than washing and cleaning plates.... I've also heard the argument that paper bags are better than plastic (although much better to bring your own). I've also heard that recycling is detrimental to the environment ...

Couldn't say what's better...sometimes I get crazy with the "do this/nono never do that" thing. (like when people say NOT to wear seatbelts because they knew someone who died because they were wearing it :roll ) I guess when all else fails follow the old gut instinct til solid proof comes up.

Ana, no anchovies please!
:eek: Ya, same here!

Ana
/always wears a seatbelt
//likes sausage and olive pizza
///is still gonna recycle