[pieeater]

Just heard on local radio that a Dutch couple who were touring N.Z. in a Campervan on their honeymoon were kidnapped whilst in the Bay of Islands.They were held hostage and she was raped in front of her husband.Just be careful eh! there are some real sickos cruising around.Curiously enough my son asked me the other day if I would put our Campervan on the local beach campsite in a couple of weeks, after he has taken his exams so that he could spend some time with his girlfriend and unwind there.AAArrrhh.

[xanctus]

YEs......really curse the rapist, curse them to suffer worse until they beg that they're not to be born.
Sorry if sounded harsh, but one crime in this world that I really2 hate more than anything else is rape.

[pieeater]

I'm so with you xanctus I'm seething.

[willsken]

That's really horrible. There is nothing worse that could happen to a couple. The feelings that will be left behind for them to deal with will be devastating. I’m with xanctus on this one, apart from when children are hurt, rape is the worst crime in the world. :mad:

[Natalieb]

Thats awful, that poor couple. Is disgusts me how people can be that evil. There are obvious dangers when travelling round NZ or any other country. Are travellers warned of risks or 'no-go area's'??

Lets hope in time they can put that terrible experience behind them,

Natalie

[kiwidebs]

I'm stunned and sad to be a New Zealander. I read the news report on this yesterday and couldn't believe the brutality of it - right here in NZ. I hope they catch the *%^^*&*(&*(& soon.


Debs

[felix]

Just heard on local radio that a Dutch couple who were touring N.Z. in a Campervan on their honeymoon were kidnapped whilst in the Bay of Islands.They were held hostage and she was raped in front of her husband.Just be careful eh! there are some real sickos cruising around.Curiously enough my son asked me the other day if I would put our Campervan on the local beach campsite in a couple of weeks, after he has taken his exams so that he could spend some time with his girlfriend and unwind there.AAArrrhh.

I am deeply shocked by this awful nightmare and my thoughts are with the newly weds....I am really angry too!!!!

[Diny]

This really is disgusting, God knows how this poor couple will ever get over this. A time intheir lives that should be full of wonderful memories will a time they will want to forget.

As for being shocked that this happened in NZ ...... I'm not, it's a country inhabited by the human race after all.

I haven't read the reports .... have they arrested anybody yet?

Diny

[jubjub]

.. double posted

[jubjub]

Does not look like they got anyone yet.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10410467

We were both appalled when we read this yesterday, the poor couple.

[veronica]

Like all of you I am horrified that this has happened, it's a terrible thing......BUT......if they had not parked on the side of the road but in a designated campground with other people it would have more than likely never have happened.
Its so tragic, all to save a few bucks on showers and use of the loos.

[Moorf]

True Veronica, but I think that NZ is still seen as somewhere were you CAN pull up anywhere... that's the freedom and space people come here on holiday for. Can't say I've heard many (any?) warnings about where to park up and where not to except layby's with notices saying not to camp there overnight etc usually because it's a public road/layby/private land etc.

After living here for a while you get to work out where is good / bad for yourself, tourists don't have the luxury of time or experience.

The crime itself was shocking, that it happened to tourists in a campervan.. IN NEW ZEALAND.. is more shocking still, in my opinion.

[Diny]

The crime itself was shocking, that it happened to tourists in a campervan.. IN NEW ZEALAND.. is more shocking still, in my opinion.


I have to say - this is the only part of the incident which HASN'T shocked me. I never have bought into the idea that this country is a crime free haven. Per capita the same c**p happens here as anywhere else in the world.

But hey - I'm getting a tad political and off topic. No matter what our opinions, we all agree on how horrific this is.

Diny

[StevieD]

It is so sad. As with any case like this, you have to ask yourself what punishment could deter acts like this in the future? Jail certainly doesn't do the trick. Maybe loss of manhood may be the answer/chemical castration. Who knows. But we are dealing with warped minds who do this sort of stuff.

[Lupin]

Veronica....people often camp out of camp sites for the beauty and peace of being immersed in nature, rather then surrounded by people, lights and noise. It's rarely about saving bucks and I'm afraid I take great exception to 'BUT' statements when it comes to rape. The couple did nothing wrong, no buts.

I don't want to start an argument with you or anyone else about this but I feel so strongly about it and I'd rather state my reaction here than give you bad reputation for it.

[pieeater]

Free camping is pretty common up here.At beaches,outside tourist information centres,by garages,carparks in town,at specific attractions,ferry terminals etc.etc.Drivers are encouraged to 'take a break' and have a nap.Tourists on a tight schedule are travelling around 24/7 driving,sleeping,sightseeing etc.etc.Somtimes they arrive at destinations late at night when campsites are closed for the evening.Free camping is pretty much heralded as part of the kiwi 'egalitarian' lifestyle.These poor souls are innocent victims, pure and simple.





these

[Rose]

Yes, I too have camped free just to enjoy being alone in nature by a lovely beach or a lookout. You might miss the showers of a camping ground but you don't miss the Rod Stewart, beer cans or crying babies.

People everywhere in NZ should be safe from this kind of brutality - whether camping wild or in a camping ground, travelling or hanging out at home. Violence is one of the aspects of NZ life I feel worst about. It does not gel well with my experience of 99 per cent of kiwis who are honest, helpful and kind.

Disappointed kiwi

[Daffy]

This and other stories are making me seriously consider whether NZ is the right choice.

[Trigirl]

This and other stories are making me seriously consider whether NZ is the right choice.
If you are moving to NZ expecting a crime free paradise then its probably not! Crime levels in NZ are very similar to the UK if you take into account the population difference.

[StevieD]

It does not gel well with my experience of 99 per cent of kiwis who are honest, helpful and kind.
Disappointed kiwi

Rose, it is a fact of life that there are people who act this way, whatever creed, race, nationality - that fact that it was a Kiwi makes you angry and sad, but it is not your fault. Just hope that if/when the culprit is caught then suitable punishment is administered.

Daffy, it is all around us unfortunately, and your decision could be swayed by reports like this. But I hear of more violence locally than the whole of NZ that I read/hear about - the majority of it caused by drugs and gangs wanting control of the lucrative trade. As long as you careful and you use your wits you are usually o.k.

[Daffy]

I do realise this, not completely wet behind the ears.

It's just that there seems to be a lot of this kinda thing in the NZ news, and the reason for most people moving is for the hope of a better life, and these kinda things make you think if this will be the case.

[willsken]

Isn't it tragic that so much of it goes on in the UK it rarely makes the news anymore. Rape in the UK is not an uncommon crime.

[Daffy]

If this person is caught and found guilty, then as well as a prison sentence "chop off his "&*))$"

[Diny]

This and other stories are making me seriously consider whether NZ is the right choice.


Hey Daffy - I hear Planet Perfect has started to take in more immigrants - have to thought about applying?

Only joking, sorry if that was abit harsh, I'm just trying to make light of a bad situation.

But seriously, I don't understand why people are dropping their jaws in horror and shock at the realisation that this kind of thing goes on in NZ.

Maybe those glossy mags and tourist videos really do have alot to answer for.

Where there's people there's low life scum - but on the same score .....

Where there's people there's heart warming humanity.

That applies not only to Northern England high density housing schemes, inner city Harlem or the alleys of Beirut - but yes - to NZ too !!!!!!

Diny

[Anita & Marco]

Hi Diny,

It is so true what you are saying - NZ has the "image" of a beautiful, clean, hassle free and crime free country - none of which is true of course.

We have been camping around in the wild a lot both 10 years ago and recently but never forgot to use common sense - on the other hand a brutal assault like what these guys did you can't prepare for that.

However, we are going to camp again soon and I do not want to adapt to one terrible accident, so hope to camp out in the free again when the opportunity occurs. Maybe this is stupid but on the other hand, when you are afraid of other people, you'd better stay in your house and close the doors and never get out again.
That's what people do in night time in Europe and I never wanted to act like that and never did and am not going to do that in NZ.

And indeed in NZ this is huge news and the bad thing is in Europe it would be a very small article in a newspaper corner.

But still - it is shocking and really terrible for those people whose life will never be the same again!!

Anita

[Diny]

Hi Diny,

It is so true what you are saying - NZ has the "image" of a beautiful, clean, hassle free and crime free country - none of which is true of course.



However, we are going to camp again soon and I do not want to adapt to one terrible accident, so hope to camp out in the free again when the opportunity occurs. Maybe this is stupid but on the other hand, when you are afraid of other people, you'd better stay in your house and close the doors and never get out again.



Anita

Well said

[willsken]

That applies not only to Northern England high density housing schemes, inner city Harlem or the alleys of Beirut - but yes - to NZ too !!!!!!

Diny

Yes, this is so true. If you look at the crime stats for NZ on a % basis they are they sameish as the UK. The only reason I feel NZ is going to be any safer for us is the low population rate. Having read the Herald for the last year or so I've seen some terrible things going on over there to.

[xanctus]

If this person is caught and found guilty, then as well as a prison sentence "chop off his "&*))$"

Oh no, it would be better to see them suffer more than just instance death.
uh oh I sounded very bad here...appologize but can't help it. :D:D

[Diny]

The only reason I feel NZ is going to be any safer for us is the low population rate. Having read the Herald for the last year or so I've seen some terrible things going on over there to.


Very true - the fact that there's alot more space between people over here really does help the situation. It actually lulls us into a false sense of security .... but I guess there's nothing wrong with that !!
Diny

[NZsoon]

As sad as this story is, its common to see such crimes where I live. Its gotten to the point where police make routine patrols with their helicopters and searchlights at night and police chases are common. All this happens in an area the size of Auckland and a population of three million. Yet, I am not scared of any of this as I have gotten used to it. I know NZ is not perfect, but I am SURE that it is at least better than what I am used to here in the U.S.

[K&CS]

yup, crime exists everywhere in the world. I don't feel shock horror that this has happened in NZ - just feel extremely sorry for the victims - horrible. Wherever you are in the world, you have to take sensible precautions, but, with the best will in the world, you can't prepare yourself for all eventualities. For example, there was a nasty case in the Uk a couple of years ago. A young pregnant woman was walking back from playgroup with her 2 year old when she was accosted by a man with a knife, who at first threatened her son, and then let him go and stabbed her in the neck leaving her for dead. It was all over the papers as this was described by the police as 'the safest corner of the safest place in the UK'. Thankfully, she survived and she went on to have her baby, although I believe she is still paralysed. She wasn't doing anything risky - it was just extremely bad luck that this sicko turned up at that moment. The same could be said for this couple in NZ, I guess - wrong place, wrong time.

[Brad77]

Well in South Africa this would be a non-issue. What would have happened in SA: she would have been gang raped, and then they would have been murdered, and even then it would hardly make the news here as such things are "normal" in the New ANC-led South Africa.

Dont get me wrong, I really feel for this couple. It must have been an awful experience. I really just wanted to give people an idea of what we have to put up with in SA at the mo, and why so many people are leaving for OZ, UK, NZ etc. It frightens me that this kind of thing is happening in NZ because in SA we perceive NZ as completely safe (and I am sure in comparison it is).

[pieeater]

Using SA as a comparison really scares me.There is very little historic similarity between the two. South Africa IMO has always been dodgy to put it simplisticly.There has never been an outright apartheid system here.No slavery etc.etc.Its like comparing an apple to an orange.

[Avalon]

I just really do not know what to say about this. For me - rape in all its forms is the most horrific crime imaginable. I can only hope that couple's love is strong enough to survive this.

No buts. Fully aggree with Lupin in this. Doesnt matter what you wear, where you walk, or where you camp. There will never be a "reason" why this should happen to anyone.

I read today that the local MP apologised to teh Dutch ambassador about this :confused: Was it him that got brutally raped :confused:

Daffy -

Dont be put off. NZ is worth it. It wont ever be crime free, but I guess know that.

[StevieD]

More political points scoring??

[Moorf]

An article I read in the paper today focussed more on how this might affect tourism than any details on the case itself. :uhoh

[willsken]

An article I read in the paper today focussed more on how this might affect tourism than any details on the case itself. :uhoh

The only good thing if they think this is that they won't spare resources trying to catch the men responsible. :roll

[Daffy]

Hey Diny, what's wrong with wanting a perfect a life as possible, and I don't think you can make "light" of this situation - so please don't even try !!!

I've travelled and worked all over the world including NZ, and actually had more bad experiences in NZ than any other (as well as good), so am well aware of the real NZ.

[Debbie P.]

TBH I wouldn't free camp anywhere these days - not in NZ but not in the UK either.

I'm with Avalon & Lupin - there shouldn't be a reason for this kind of thing to happen anywhere... But on the other hand, I don't want it to happen to me, so that's why I'd always stick to proper campsites. It's a terrible shame, but that's modern life. In a way, it's even worse if it happens in your own home, if there IS such as thing as 'worse' in this situation.

I notice from the newspaper article that a garage attendent says he advised them not to camp rough. If that's true, then I guess it goes to show it's always worth listening to the locals.

Yes, why apologise to the ambassador - how strange :(

[Diny]

Hey Diny, what's wrong with wanting a perfect a life as possible, and I don't think you can make "light" of this situation - so please don't even try !!!

I've travelled and worked all over the world including NZ, and actually had more bad experiences in NZ than any other (as well as good), so am well aware of the real NZ.


Sorry if I offended - that wasn't my intention. By 'making light' of the situation I was actually referring more to your 'worries' about moving here.

[Moorf]

One thing that did stick in my mind about the newspaper article (front page, The Press) was that this has been highlighted in the media not only because of its awfulness, but because it is a rare occurance in New Zealand.

I'm still of the opinion, and speak from experience, when I say that here, in my little corner of NZ, I thankfully don't feel unsafe - no excuse not to keep your wits about you though.

I can't even begin to compare how safe I feel here as opposed to the UK, rural or not, there's just no comparison (imho / flack jacket on / RTS's safely stored in overhead locker)....

[Diny]

I agree - I think this has been 'brought to the fore' because it is an 'unusual' crime.

As for feeling safe here - yeah I do too - but I NEVER felt unsafe back in England, neither did I ever feel unsafe when we lived in Scotland or when we lived in Australia.

Now this is where I know I'll get mocked - but 'poeple' don't worry/scare me. As has been pointed out to me on many occasions, this will probably be my down coming. I am far more 'concerned' about dead 'bad' people than I am about those still living. I'm a very spiritual person and am fully aware of the 'unseen' dangers that lurk everywhere.

OK - you can all stop laughing now.

But just to qualify how I feel about living here - although still in a rural area, we have far more neighbours around us here than we had at home, and 'town' (Palmerston North) is alot closer than any town back home. Therefore, I am more aware of the 'risk of crime' here than I ever was tucked away in my sleepy little enclave on the Staffordshire/Shropshire border, and I have to say - personally, I've seen more 'wrongs' here than I ever did back there.

But at the end of the day - this very sad incident is obviously going to cause some knee jerk reactions and some heart felt comments from all 'sides'. Those who want to believe that NZ is relatively crime free will say that this is an isolated one off incident. Those who believe that NZ is just the same as any other country in the world will ask why people are dropping their jaws in horror that it should happen in 'Godzone', and never the twain I guess. The only thing any one of us can do is speak from experience and share those experiences so that others can get a balanced view.

Maybe it's the Gemini in me (thanks for pointing that out Veronica) but I always tend to take on board both sides of a discussion and then take comfort in the knowledge that 'reality' probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Diny

[Smiler]

I feel that it has been highlighted because of the rare occurence here in NZ of this type of crime.

It's not reported in Uk or other countries purely because it is now an 'everyday' crime in those places. You may hear about it in UK if and when it gets to court.

I feel safer here in NZ than I did in the UK by miles, but I still keep my wits about me just as I did in the UK. We are both sensible about that stuff and physical security is a small part of our business, so wouldn't we look stupid to our customers. :uhoh

I felt safe in Wellington and feel safe here too. I'm sure there will be a different type of crime here in the wap wap's, boys looking for places to grow waccy baccy or farm gates being stolen as opposed to city opportunist crime but it's relevant, just no comparison to the UK crime level. Can't speak for the US though.

[Diny]

I
I felt safe in Wellington and feel safe here too. I'm sure there will be a different type of crime here in the wap wap's, boys looking for places to grow waccy baccy or farm gates being stolen as opposed to city opportunist crime .


Sorry to post again - but the above statement made by Smiler kind of hits the nail on the head regarding my situation.

Smiler has moved from a heavier populated area to the sticks and says that although crime exists in both they are 'different'. This is EXACTLY how it is for me but the other way around. I've moved from the sticks to a heavier populated area - hence the the crime around these parts seems worse (to me).

Diny

[Caroline and Dave]

Moorf

[/QUOTE] I can't even begin to compare how safe I feel here as opposed to the UK, rural or not, there's just no comparison (imho / flack jacket on / RTS's safely stored in overhead locker)....[/QUOTE]


Thought you might find this interesting.
Warning, It makes for disturbing reading. www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page60.asp

Dave and Caroline

[Paul]

Thought you might find this interesting.
Warning, It makes for disturbing reading. www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page60.asp

Dave and Caroline



I've seen this before and whilst the figures may make disturbing reading on first glance you should really take in the 05/06 summary of report which kind of backs the notion that has been mentioned here before about people's perception rather than maybe the actual reality? Always dangerous in my opinion of reproducing part of a report as you can show a situation in two different lights as we have done here
Of course, also the BCS survey is just an estimate based on 48,000 survey's, not a huge percentage of the overall adult population of the UK

Key points from the 2005/06 data

The risk of becoming a victim of crime has fallen from 40 per cent at its peak in 1995 to 23 per cent according to British Crime Survey (BCS) interviews in 2005/06, the lowest level recorded since the BCS began in 1981.

Yet despite the total number of crimes estimated by the BCS falling over recent years, around two-thirds (63%) of people thought crime in the country as a whole had increased in the previous two years.

Key points:

the 2005/06 British Crime Survey shows that crime against adults in England and Wales is stabilising after long periods of reduction


there has been a 44% fall in crime measured by the BCS between 1995 and 2005/06;


crimes recorded by the police fell by 1% in 2005/06 compared with 2004/05;


there has been a 59% fall in burglary as measured by the BCS since 1995;


vehicle-related thefts fell by 8% this year according to the BCS and by 3% according to recorded crime;


property crime accounts for the majority of both BCS and recorded crime (77 and 73 per cent respectively);


BCS violent crime has remained stable in 2005/06 compared with the previous year. Recorded crime statistics show a two per cent increase in violent crime in 2005/06 compared with 2004/05;


almost half of the violent crimes recorded by the BCS and of violence against the person offences recorded by the police involved no injury to the victim;

I think Diny's points are 100% correct in that you can only base judgements based on what you had previously and what you have now.
Interesting reading though thanks

[willsken]

I think that generally there is far more poor behaviour around than say 20 years ago and I think (guilty of it myself) that people take this as crime being on the up and up. Most bad behaviour has nothing to do with the crime stats as not a lot is done about it in the first place. (:uhoh If you know what I mean!)

[Rose]

The South Africa comparion is interesting.

I was talking to my fiance about the NZ case and he said in Sweden people camping wild do get robbed occasionally. But that's all. They aren't roughed up.

I honestly don't think you are 100 per cent safe in a camping ground either, sadly. Did you read about the 12-year-old girl in the UK who gave shelter to a homeless man who lived under her bed for three months and regularly raped her? You aren't really safe anywhere.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/10/nhack110.xml

Or perhaps I'm just getting tired. Off to bed.

Nite,
Rose

[MB]

I think that generally there is far more poor behaviour around than say 20 years ago and I think (guilty of it myself) that people take this as crime being on the up and up. Most bad behaviour has nothing to do with the crime stats as not a lot is done about it in the first place. (:uhoh If you know what I mean!)

That's a very interesting point, Nicola. A thought-provoking distinction.

[strawberries]

I am just after reading the thread. What an awful deed. What an awful honeymoon the dutch couple had....a nightmare. God bless them.

Diny and others make so many good points. I am in Ireland/UK, and tho I hanker for NZ, I know that there is nowhere on earth that is a perfect paradise. Anyone who believes that there is, is living with the fairies.

Crime where I live, is very low. I don't personally see anything at all in my area. Tho of course in England, the media will alarm and push the worst stories to the fore, night after night (as they clammer for viewing figures).

I know friends and relatives who now are scared by what they see and refuse to watch the nightly news anymore - one woman says it depresses her too much. Of course the reality is that crime figures are actually down by a large chunk in the past 10 years.....tho one would never guess that from watching the news.

In dealing with realities, what western society needs is proper punishment of such serious crimes as rape.....but more importantly, ensuring that the public is kept as safe as possible. Rapists and attempted rapists should lose the right to have willies. The govt needs to cut them down to size.

[Ana&Steve]

Rapists and attempted rapists should lose the right to have willies. The govt needs to cut them down to size.
Or at least the beans, so they can't pass the genes...

[Bruckner]

Now this is where I know I'll get mocked - but 'poeple' don't worry/scare me. As has been pointed out to me on many occasions, this will probably be my down coming. I am far more 'concerned' about dead 'bad' people than I am about those still living. I'm a very spiritual person and am fully aware of the 'unseen' dangers that lurk everywhere.

OK - you can all stop laughing now.
Diny

No laughter here. Quite the opposite actually. I remember the story about the first house you lived in when you moved to NZ.

Emily

[constablechuck]

I was surprised and also not so surprised to read about what happened, there are some evil opportunists in this world that just wait to rob or rape others, statistically there will always be more crime where there are more people, NZ with it's low population will always be safer than the U.S., Canada and U.K., the safest places are the smaller tight knit communities, I live in a midsized Town but we are just off the interstate so we get a lot of out of towners passing through our resturaunts, gas stations and hotels, as the State Constable of the Town I am responsible for the safety and well being of the people in my Town, so I tend to notice people that look and act suspicious, I'm always the polite public servant but I do make sure those people know that I am aware of them, after speaking with me they usually end up back on the interstate headed for somewhere else.

Proactive law enforcement can go a long way in keeping a community safe, but proactive citizens looking out for eachother is even better.

Do they have citizen crime watch organizations in NZ ?

[Singel]

Do they have citizen crime watch organizations in NZ ?
We have neighbourhood watch.

[pieeater]

Just heard the Police have got two vagrants for the Kidnap.Well done N.Z.Police.

[xanctus]

yeah, just read in nzherald.co.nz as well about the catch.

[Ana&Steve]

I've only just read on the Herald about the arrest. I'm very relieved these two were captured. I have a question about one of the charges, though; what does stupefying mean in regards to a crime in NZ? I Wikied it and I'm not sure if it means they drugged her, hit her head, or confused her. I'm not trying to be morbid, I just really want to understand the charges against the culprits.
Thanks,
Ana

[The Hodges]

In case anyone remembers this thread, see today's article on the NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10451150&ref=rss).

And before you go running for the hills, there's plenty of safety tips on the Police (http://www.police.govt.nz/safety/) site.

And please, don't have nightmares.

[Debbie P.]

I'd have given him 20 years minimum :mad:

That poor couple - what a terrible start to married life. I just hope they can put it behind them and it doesn't break them up.

[james the mechanic]

My heart really goes out to the Dutch couple, until reading that I was not aware they were potential migrants to NZ.
Would he have received a harsher sentence in the UK?
Or the US, for that matter?
I dont think you can ever put a thing like that behind you.

[liamnrach]

What an absolute nightmare for this poor couple....

I cannot detail here what punishment we think is more fitting than jail-time... we only hope that some 'accident' befalls them whilst they are in prison, a rather long and painful accident.....

We shall certainly not be straying from any 'official' camping sites now, during our recce trip. We took a chance and did this on our last visit, but this report and incident is a bit of a wake up call.....

We just hope that this poor couple can start to rebuild thier lives. But, it is probably something they will never forget...how awful:(

Good informative link by the way Hodges:yes

Liam n Rach

[willsken]

My heart really goes out to the Dutch couple, until reading that I was not aware they were potential migrants to NZ.
Would he have received a harsher sentence in the UK?
Or the US, for that matter?
I dont think you can ever put a thing like that behind you.

I honestly don't think they would have received such a sentence in the UK. Some of the pathetic sentences doled out in the UK was one of the things that made my blood boil about the country. That being said, shame on NZ for allowing someone with 100 convictions, what ever they were for, out on the streets. :(

[Debbie P.]

I honestly don't think they would have received such a sentence in the UK. Some of the pathetic sentences doled out in the UK was one of the things that made my blood boil about the country. That being said, shame on NZ for allowing someone with 100 convictions, what ever they were for, out on the streets. :(

I was really pleased to see the would-be London bombers from July 2005 getting life with no chance of release for 40 years, although in the States would probably be more like 100.

But what about this evil trio http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/6284184.stm - I CANNOT believe they only got 10 years!

[sunnyb]

.
Would he have received a harsher sentence in the UK?
.

Last week a judge gave a sentence of a few years (can't remember exactly just that it was minimal) to the rapist of an 11 year old saying that she had looked 16 and acted provocatively whist walking through the park !

The implication here is that it was OK to rape a 16 year old or anyone 'acting provocatively' whilst walking :(

The crime was awful, but the violent crime in the UK is awful. People are raped on tube trains at rush hour in London - whilst people turn away for fear of getting involved - and the rape of young girls feels like it's rising (or maybe that's because my daughter is getting older so I'm more aware of it).

A 12 yr old was raped on her way home from school 1.5 miles from our house. We live in a relatively build up, safe area in Kent and she wasn't walking off the beaten track at all.

The legal system in the UK is less and less of a deterent. Whatever the stats show, I feel a lot safer in NZ than in the UK and can't wait to get there.

B

[Croft]

I was really pleased to see the would-be London bombers from July 2005 getting life with no chance of release for 40 years, although in the States would probably be more like 100.

But what about this evil trio http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/6284184.stm - I CANNOT believe they only got 10 years!

Although given the fact they've only be done for "false imprisonment and assault occasioning actual bodily harm." that's as much as probably could be thrown at them. Can't believe they couldn't push for a murder charge because the victims epilepsy may have contributed to his death.

Having sat through a trial, and know many people in the UK legal system from Police to Magistrates, the more serious cases generally are dealt with pretty fairly. Unfortunately the "Daily Mail" style of reporting invariably fails to give the public the entire picture and leads people to wonder why what are perceived to be lenient sentences are handed down.

It's in the UK Magistrates Courts that there's a fair degree of inconsistency, with some Magistrates being way to lenient and others (including the mother of a colleague of mine) whoi is definitely of the "hang 'em" school of thinking.

[Debbie P.]

Although given the fact they've only be done for "false imprisonment and assault occasioning actual bodily harm." that's as much as probably could be thrown at them.

Yes, it must be terribly frustrating for magistrates and judges like your colleague's mother when the system only permits them to sentence so many years.

[Ana&Steve]

Both had been getting counselling. The woman felt she may not be able to have children and had nightmares and flashbacks. Both felt they could not return to the Netherlands because of the publicity it had generated there and the man felt humiliation and guilt that he could not protect his wife.This statement made be cry all over again. I'm not going to stir things up again, just wanted to say that at least they are in jail for the time being, anyway; there two parasites that won't be feeding off the innocent any time soon.
Ana

[xanctus]

Shame indeed about the result of this low criminals. when I read and look at the faces of those @$^@%$@...pardon my lingo again. :D

[welshgang]

It doesnt matter where u r from, sometimes I am just asheamed to be part of the human race. The other day, a 39 yr old bloke on a nght out with two mates got attacked in my local train station. The following day, a fella was heard to b bragging about the sound of this blokes neck snapping as they jumped on his head... This poor bloke died on sunday leaving 2 kids and a wife. Needless to say, there is seriously something lacking in a persons conscience to even contemplate carrying out this stuff. Makes me sick to the stomach!

[welshgang]

Ditto, regardless of how/where they were camping - nothing can even come close to excusing/justifying why anyone can't park anywhere. Camping is my thing and do it all the time, usually there is an unspoken rule.... even though you know that safety could be an issue, it never is because people respect camping. It's lke you know u r vunerable and so does eveyone else but you don't prey on that vunerabilty.

[constablechuck]

I think part of the problem in NZ is that people don't want to intervene to help others that are being attacked ect...for fear of ending up on the wrong side of the law, I've read stories about people in NZ being arrested just for defending themselves or others, there was recently a gun shop employee who shot some maniac that came in with a knife trying to steal guns, what would have happened if this maniac was allowed to steal the guns ? the employee was arrested (the court eventually dismissed the charges). If this happened in the U.S. he would have gotten a medal even in the anti gun states like NY and MA.

[welshgang]

I just want to reiterate my point which i made at the begining of the thread. I live in a tiny town but it has become awful for crime... last week someone got attacked, their head stamped on and died. Girl in local A7E got pushed over by a drunk and died, a fella walking home from night out got jumped, attacked and someone stamped on his head. My point is, it doesnt matter where u go, it's everywhere. I don't want to be put off from exploring the world, I suppose we have shifted from a world of relative peace and freedom to a situation where we DO need to be mindful of every move we make. Just got to... I dunno, keep the faith that its the minority that act in this way and we r the majority.

[kanatakiwi]

well, another thread I was trying to stay out of. But want to add this observation about crime, whether in NZ, North America, UK or whatever. There is a raging epidemic of crystal meth use that is involved in nearly every one of these horrible events in New Zealand. It is also true in Canada and the US. this doesn't excuse anything, but it brings up the point that to stem this senseless violence, there needs to be a drug treatment plan targetted specifically to this particular drug. Even if a person does want to get off this drug, you cant put these people in treatment centres with folks trying to deal with an acohol addiction for instance. I just think not enough is being done to attack the root of the problem which is a drug that makes people paranoid, violent, aggressive and toatally without any judgement faculties, all at the same time.

[Nathan]

well, another thread I was trying to stay out of. ...

Me, too!

... There is a raging epidemic of crystal meth use that is involved in nearly every one of these horrible events in New Zealand. ...

Exactly. It was also implicated in at least one of the NZ dog attacks in the recent past. Some people apparently feed their dogs P to make them more aggressive.

... not enough is being done to attack the root of the problem which is a drug that makes people paranoid, violent, aggressive and toatally without any judgement faculties, all at the same time.

..and it is addictive in the extreme. I used to think all the hype about meth (P in NZ) was overdone and paranoid, but I don't think so anymore.

[KerryS]

I've only just read on the Herald about the arrest. I'm very relieved these two were captured. I have a question about one of the charges, though; what does stupefying mean in regards to a crime in NZ? I Wikied it and I'm not sure if it means they drugged her, hit her head, or confused her. I'm not trying to be morbid, I just really want to understand the charges against the culprits.
Thanks,
Ana

Ana, one of the two tried to drug the woman before raping her. This would have been the attempted stupefying.
It can mean any of the things you described though - basically overcoming someone in order to commit a crime against the person.