[bpk]

Hi There

So far, I have payed lots of money for the PR! we are 5 (3 kids and me and my wife). Had to go to health examination, blood test, and x-ray (though we did all of that for the visa before we came here!), this cost me $850 !! The qualification assesment cost $500, and the application fee is $800

So far altogether is $2150

I have heard also after the ITA being approved I have to pay $300 fore each of us to get the PR!! (is that true?)
So it would be $1500 for us. The payment toll will raise to $3650

So does it worth to pay all that money??

[tigerlily]

Add in the airline tickets and you've got yourself some real money. Yes, this is not for the faint hearted!

[Hannah]

Yes, you do pay $300 each (the migrant levy - to fund research into immigration apparently....)
I once read on this forum the following comment: "you start to haemmorhage money as soon as you even think about emigrating to NZ"

We've spent maybe as much as £20,000 ($50,000) so far - a 5 week holiday to NZ in 2003, a 6 month stay in NZ this year (flights, accom., car etc) plus PR application plus another set of one way tickets for our final trip in January 2007.

Yep, not for the fainthearted.


Look on the bright side bpk - you're in NZ already so won't need to pay for flights again!!!!

how's it going out there (apart from the financial shocks)? I was wondering the other day how you were getting on. Are the children liking NZ and school.

hannah

[stu70]

God Love Me! And I thought it was rough here in Canada with all the fees applied to people to immigrate. NZ is no different then eh! Do you get any benefits while you are on work permit but not an "landed immigrant" bpk though? Obviously you are paying taxes on income even if you are not immigrant. Just wondering. Stu

[Kim39]

No you are not able to claim any benefits unless you have PR so why we pay such high taxes I don't know??:mad:


Elaine (Kim 39 OH)

[bpk]

how's it going out there (apart from the financial shocks)? I was wondering the other day how you were getting on. Are the children liking NZ and school.

hannah
Thanks Hannah. I am well except the silly process of PR and the hayfever!! The work is good as well as the people. Kids are going to Kindergarten and the old one expected to go to school next year.

[bpk]

Do you get any benefits while you are on work permit but not an "landed immigrant" bpk though? Obviously you are paying taxes on income even if you are not immigrant. Just wondering. Stu

I am not entitled to any benifits as comming with work permit and not a immigrant! :mad: despite the fact that I am paying more than one third of my income as a tax. NOT FAIR at all! isn't is?

[Moorf]

Small price to pay imho. At least the country isn't full of immigrant bludgers living off other peoples well earned tax money. The message is, come here and work, if you can't / won't, then don't expect us to bail you out - you came here to live and be of use to the NZ economy, deal with it. Well, that's my take on it...

[bpk]

Small price to pay imho. At least the country isn't full of immigrant bludgers living off other peoples well earned tax money. The message is, come here and work, if you can't / won't, then don't expect us to bail you out - you came here to live and be of use to the NZ economy, deal with it. Well, that's my take on it...
Hi Moorf

I understand and fully agree with you that the policy to get qualified people to help the country and to benifit from. BUT WHY bothering with all silly processes? I got the job offer before thinking of immigration. So I came to the country to benifit the country and not to live on social money or as a refugee. I am working with a govermental institution, have been chosen to this position I am occupying among several people around the world. So the immigration knows why I am comming here. My point is: it is not fair to treat a person who is already in the country and working in a permanant job, and highly qualified the same way as people from outside of the country who are unknown for immigartion.

[Moorf]

Not sure I know what you are trying to say. What is so silly about the immigration process - whether you're here on PR or here on a working visa? It seems a stringent, thorough and selective process that, whilst expensive, is done to ensure on desirables are allowed to stay and benefit from what NZ has to offer. The UK could learn from some of NZ's immigration policies... latest I heard is that there are around 220,000 immigrants from eastern European countries alone getting in to the UK at the moment and able to claim benefits.

[Jenny & Mark]

God Love Me! And I thought it was rough here in Canada with all the fees applied to people to immigrate. NZ is no different then eh! Do you get any benefits while you are on work permit but not an "landed immigrant" bpk though? Obviously you are paying taxes on income even if you are not immigrant. Just wondering. Stu

Although when Jenny immigrated to Canada with me, it cost about $3000 CAD for Jenny alone - not included the flight. What I do really like about the NZ immigration system is that there is some general outline for dates and process. Canadian immigration was so backed up it took 18 months to get PR and the ability to work.

Mark.

[veronica]

I agree that I don't think that just anybody should be eligible for handouts, and that it should apply to people with PR. you dont ha e to apply, if you choose you can keep going the work visa route. A lot of this is to do with past experience here when people have just arrived and milked the system. The reason you pay the same tax is that you use the same roads, libraries, schools etc as everyone else. and we are in the same position as you, we'e paid it all before to get the LTBV and are now paying it all again for the PR.

[jo-and-jeff]

No you are not able to claim any benefits unless you have PR so why we pay such high taxes I don't know??I am not entitled to any benifits as comming with work permit and not a immigrant! despite the fact that I am paying more than one third of my income as a tax. NOT FAIR at all! isn't is?
Why should it be fair?

I've gotten angry in the U.S. at people from other countries who were quite outraged that it was extremely difficult to migrate there. Why in the world would they assume that they have a right to move to America? It's each country's prerogative to decide whether to let someone come and stay, and under what circumstances.

As a migrant, it's important to understand that the reason the NZ government allows skilled migrants to come here isn't because they want more people in the country, or out of the "goodness of their heart". They do it for 2 reasons:
skilled migrants raise the overall skill level of the country's workforce, thus improving the country's ability to participate in higher-level economic activity, thus improving the country's economy

a more skilled workforce means higher average salaries, which means more income taxes flowing in to the government. Let's have no illusions -- the NZ government is permitting us to come here so that our income taxes can help prop up the pension and healthcare systems as they become increasingly more costly as the NZ population ages.
NZ's major goal with the skilled migrant program is to bring to their country people who will use as few benefits from the system as possible, whilst pumping as much income tax into the system as possible.

That's why the assessment of migrants' education and experience is so rigorous, and it's why the medical requirements are so stringent.

They have a small country, with limited economic resources. I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to admit whoever they decide will most benefit their country — and to charge migrants a fair-sized chunk of change for the privilege (not the right) to be able to come here.

Like Moorf, we don't have a problem with this. We knew that it was all part of the bargain, but we felt that the intangible benefits that New Zealand offered us, like work-life balance, beautiful environment, and lots of outdoor activities, were well worth the emotional and financial cost involved in moving here.

Jo

[cuzy]

Hi BpK:
I assumed you gained your qualification from an American College/University. If so, why did have your qualification assessed? Most American institution are listed on the lists of recognized institution. Just curious

[wilson182]

:clap :clap :clap Well said Jo

[bpk]

Why should it be fair?

I've gotten angry in the U.S. at people from other countries who were quite outraged that it was extremely difficult to migrate there. Why in the world would they assume that they have a right to move to America? It's each country's prerogative to decide whether to let someone come and stay, and under what circumstances.


I would agree NOT to get the NZ PR if I will be treated as a skilled employee who come to benifit the country. I got my job offer before thinking of comming here. I have worked before in different countries around the world, in EU and Middle East, but never be faced with such a strange system. Why the hell should I apply for PR to be treated like others and in the same time I pay tax like others and even more!! I know some refugee come to the NZ, got PR as soon as they arrive, and what next? IDLE..doing Nothing but get benifits from the country...And I and you pay for them.
If I am treated not as a permanant citizen, this should be in all aspect and not only in benifits. I agree not to get benifit from the country (i.e. school subsidency, public health insurance, family assistant,etc) but should not pay tax as much as those who get benifit.
When I was in EU also on work visa, I got the same benifits as citizen cause I am on work visa and not a refugee. I came here after the institution which I am working with could not find any qualified person in NZ to fullfil the position.
Did you understand what I mean?

[bpk]

Hi BpK:
I assumed you gained your qualification from an American College/University. If so, why did have your qualification assessed? Most American institution are listed on the lists of recognized institution. Just curious

NO. It is from Holland and Germany

[jo-and-jeff]

I have worked before in different countries around the world, in EU and Middle East, but never be faced with such a strange system. Why the hell should I apply for PR to be treated like others and in the same time I pay tax like others and even more!!... When I was in EU also on work visa, I got the same benifits as citizen cause I am on work visa and not a refugee.
Citizens of countries who are EU members get certain "entitlements" in other EU countries. New Zealand is not an EU country, and those entitlements don't apply here. Migrants don't have the right to expect the rules here to fit their definition of "fair".

It's a privilege, not a right, to be allowed to move to New Zealand. If a migrant wants to come and live here, then they have to be willing to accept the rules and requirements of this country, and not expect special treatment. If they are not willing to do so, then perhaps they should reconsider as to whether moving to New Zealand is the right choice for them.

Jo

[Ana&Steve]

Just wanted to say, on a positive note, that I am happy NZ gives those with PR the right to vote. In the States, you have to be/have attained full citizenship first.
Ana
/don't get me started on illegal immigrant rights/benefits in the US... :roll :)

[stu70]

It's a privilege, not a right, to be allowed to move to New Zealand. If a migrant wants to come and live here, then they have to be willing to accept the rules and requirements of this country, and not expect special treatment. If they are not willing to do so, then perhaps they should reconsider as to whether moving to New Zealand is the right choice for them.

Not sure if any one is arguing about a country's right to select who is allowed to enter and live and work. I personally find it appalling that a country would charge you income tax just like another joe shmo on the street yet not extend normal benefits to them coz they are not yet "immigrants"!! That was my qu to bpk. By the way I fully understand your frustrations bpk. I would if I had to pay taxes (1/3 of my income) and not receive squat in return.

[stu70]

Just wanted to say, on a positive note, that I am happy NZ gives those with PR the right to vote. In the States, you have to be/have attained full citizenship first.
Ana
/don't get me started on illegal immigrant rights/benefits in the US... :roll :)
We see the economic impact of these "illegals" in the USA on a daily basis. They had rallies not too long ago all over the US where they made an important point; no matter how much Americans want to rid these so called illegals, their own businesses are not willing to live without this cheap and abundant labour pool. It is like an addiction. I understand people don't like illegal aliens but can their country really do without all these folks? The problems are not always as they seem.
Well I digress..

[jo-and-jeff]

Not sure if any one is arguing about a country's right to select who is allowed to enter and live and work.
That right also extends to specifying the terms under which someone is allowed to do so, such as how much they pay in taxes, and how much they get in benefits.

No one is forced at gunpoint to come and live in New Zealand. Either they make the decision that they're willing to accept New Zealand's terms and conditions in order to do so, or they don't, and they don't come here. "Fair" is just not part of the equation.

Jo

[suebeenz]

By the way I fully understand your frustrations bpk. I would if I had to pay taxes (1/3 of my income) and not receive squat in return.

I would have to agree here. Taxes without benefits don't make sense to me.

In the US, you'd at least be entitled to unemployment, because hey, you paid for it! But then again you would also have to pay into Social security, and you're not eligible to draw on it at retirement age until you've worked 8 years (or so). I'm of course ignoring the fact that social security will almost certainly be bankrupt by the time I retire anyhow.

Sigh

[Ana&Steve]

We see the economic impact of these "illegals" in the USA on a daily basis. They had rallies not too long ago all over the US where they made an important point; no matter how much Americans want to rid these so called illegals, their own businesses are not willing to live without this cheap and abundant labour pool. It is like an addiction. I understand people don't like illegal aliens but can their country really do without all these folks? The problems are not always as they seem.
Well I digress..
No, seriously, I said DON'T get me started!

[felix]

Small price to pay imho. At least the country isn't full of immigrant bludgers living off other peoples well earned tax money. The message is, come here and work, if you can't / won't, then don't expect us to bail you out - you came here to live and be of use to the NZ economy, deal with it. Well, that's my take on it...

I totally agree. For heavens sake you are getting a new life. It cost us £12500 family of 5, door to door with a 40 foot container. £12500 for a new life..utter bargain!! I paid that once for a Vauxhall Vectra...that was a waste!!!!!

[willsken]

I totally agree. For heavens sake you are getting a new life. It cost us £12500 family of 5, door to door with a 40 foot container. £12500 for a new life..utter bargain!! I paid that once for a Vauxhall Vectra...that was a waste!!!!!
:nice1

[zippygoblet]

Actually, can I be totally lazy and ask this?

Q What benefits does a person on PR has that a person on a work permit doesn't have?

For example, do I need to get medical insurance on a work permit??

Just curious.

[Smiler]

I totally agree. For heavens sake you are getting a new life. It cost us £12500 family of 5, door to door with a 40 foot container. £12500 for a new life..utter bargain!! I paid that once for a Vauxhall Vectra...that was a waste!!!!!

:nice1:nice1:nice1

We've only just finished putting a tourniquet on the haemorrhage of money thats got our lives and business settled in NZ. I'm not going to even start to add it all up, but whatever it came to, we would pay it all out again.


Every cent we've paid out has been worth it to obtain the quality of work/home life we have here.

[veronica]

when you come here on a work visa that gives you the right to work for a particular company and usually at a particular job. if you leave that company then the work visa is invalid and you become an overstayer so why should you think that you are entitled to unemployment. you are only here on a contract to that company.

I am not sure of the particulars on child benefits but I understand that kids get a student visa so the education side of things is covered. If you have an accident and are injured thats covered on the ACC. I am not sure whether you are covered for hospitalisation, but am sure you are driving and using the roads, the library is there for you to use, the public parks and DOC sites are there for free, so why should you have a lesser tax rate. asking why you should have to pay the same tax as everybody else seems a bit like a childless couple asking for a rebate on their taxes as they haven't used the education system for kids of their own so why should they pay for others kids.

its a case of you chose to take the job on a work visa, the conditions haven't changed so presumably you looked into all this before entering into it. If you want to become a New Zealander then its up to you to decide if you want to pay the price to get PR, if you don't then just get on with life. BPK I am sorry to say that its coming across as a bit of a whinge.

Its a case of taking the choice and paying the price or putting up and shutting up. I don't think that anybody forced you to come to New Zealand.

[stu70]

its a case of you chose to take the job on a work visa, the conditions haven't changed so presumably you looked into all this before entering into it. If you want to become a New Zealander then its up to you to decide if you want to pay the price to get PR, if you don't then just get on with life. BPK I am sorry to say that its coming across as a bit of a whinge.

Its a case of taking the choice and paying the price or putting up and shutting up. I don't think that anybody forced you to come to New Zealand.

Yes bpk, and don't forget, they don't charge you for breathing NZ air. Do they now :D

On a serious note, I have also heard NZ does not have robust employee protection laws (maybe I am wrong). I doubt they have year long maternity leave for women or paid holidays as generous as Canada or Europe. But then again, its a different country. And this is just my observation.

[suebeenz]

when you come here on a work visa that gives you the right to work for a particular company and usually at a particular job. if you leave that company then the work visa is invalid and you become an overstayer so why should you think that you are entitled to unemployment. you are only here on a contract to that company.

Its a case of taking the choice and paying the price or putting up and shutting up. I don't think that anybody forced you to come to New Zealand.

You're making assumptions about the work visa. Not all work visas are tied to a specific employer. But, even if they all were, taking the example of the US, one can still collect unemployment from US after returning to one's country of citizenship. You pay for something, you get benefits. Makes sense to me.

[stu70]

You're making assumptions about the work visa. Not all work visas are tied to a specific employer. But, even if they all were, taking the example of the US, one can still collect unemployment from US after returning to one's country of citizenship. You pay for something, you get benefits. Makes sense to me.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Cheers

[jo-and-jeff]

I have also heard NZ does not have robust employee protection laws (maybe I am wrong).
Based on what I've seen since we've been here, I would say that NZ's employee protection laws seems to be quite strong (as do their consumer protection laws). Employees who feel that they have been wrongly dismissed can file suit, and there have been quite a number of judgments in the past few months where such employees were awarded compensatory and punitive damages.

Furthermore, there was recently an attempt to pass a law which would have permitted employers to dismiss employees without cause in their first 3 months of employment (supporters pointed out that this would make employers more willing to take a chance on unexperienced applicants, and on newly-arrived migrants), but the proposed law was shot down, so employers still have to be able to show cause for all dismissals.

When that cause is redundancy, it's my understanding that businesses are required to provide severance pay to employees, but I don't know the particulars of that.

Jo

[stu70]

Thanks for the info. Stu

[bpk]

Citizens of countries who are EU members get certain "entitlements" in other EU countries. New Zealand is not an EU country, and those entitlements don't apply here. Migrants don't have the right to expect the rules here to fit their definition of "fair".

Jo



I am not a citizen of any EU country and despite that, I was treated in work/tax , benifits the same way as any citizen.

The rule is: if you work and pay tax, you are entitled to benifits regardless of your nationality or residency. The problem in NZ is that residency and work visa re different! In any EU country, residency is the same as work visa in terms of tax and benifits. The only difference is that work visa is limited in time but residency is unlimited.

[veronica]

while over here you can get some general work visas such as the working holdiay visa but the majority of work visas are tied to a particular job and employer. do you know of anyone who has an open work visa outside of this, I haven't come across anyone.

[jo-and-jeff]

The rule is: if you work and pay tax, you are entitled to benifits regardless of your nationality or residency.
Whose rule is that?

:confused:

Jo

[Hannah]

Sort of changing the thread a bit, but while in NZ i read a book titled "The immigration myth" which actually argued FOR opening borders internationally. As many will know, each year thousands of Mexicans illegally cross the border into the US. Some years ago, according to this book, an border 'amnesty' was held allowing illegal immigrants to pass back over the border - over the few weeks of this amnesty over 4 million Mexicans crossed back into Mexico. The argument of the author was that many migrants migrate in order to earn money for a specific period of time/for a specific reason - ultimately, for most, the culture shock will be too much and they will want to return home (or, they have earnt their money and don't need to stay). Many cannot return home as they cannot cross back over the border, do not have travel documents, etc.... These are also the workers in the Western world who do the jobs many Westerners don't want to do (e.g. cleaning, caring etc.)

I'm not advocating a particular opinion here, just giving food for thought....

[bpk]

do you know of anyone who has an open work visa outside of this, I haven't come across anyone.
It is me and my wife. We have both open work visas. It is written clear on the visa:
The holder may work as unspecified for unspecified in NEW Zealnd

If you like I can scan it for you

[stu70]

I'm not advocating a particular opinion here, just giving food for thought....

How right you are. Immigration to large extent (if its not skilled immigrant category)is economic in nature. I tried to make this point earlier; USA businesses would not survive if they didn't have cheap labour to do chores most Americans wouldn't do even for minimum wages. So there is merit to the argument to look at economic aspect of the whole immigration process in problem areas(Africans going to Europe,Mexicans to USA, etc. etc.etc.). Yet better, the "developed" nations need to adopt a resolution to help those countries that are the source of majority of these so called economic migrants(or "illegals" if you will) by making life a tad better for the people living there so that immigration will not be the solution for these millions anymore. Whenever human dignity is compromised knowingly or otherwise, you have people taking extreme measures (like going to another country just to survive). And that in turn causes grief to all the nations around the world..just my 2 cents (or 1.8 cents US)

[veronica]

its usually only the spouse of the main work visa applicant that has an open visa, anyone else out who is the main applicant and has an open visa.

our son in law came over here on a work visa and the nature of the job and the employer were listed in the visa, he was told that as they are so short of people with his experience and he wanted to change his job but stay in the same field then they would look at changing the employer. It almost sounds as if they forgot to fill yours in.

anybody else on a work visa, does yours specify anything?

[bpk]

anybody else on a work visa, does yours specify anything?

No it is not specific. I can go and work anywhere.

[SarahEDH]

This post is a general response, not addressing Veronica's question above -- hopefully someone can.

My thought is that those considering an employment offer in NZ should apply for PR as soon as possible (and perhaps BPK did this -- sorry but I'm not sure). If the available process has costs, delays, or does not result in a grant of PR, this is not the govt.'s fault -- it is a risk that migrants bear when relocating. I agree that migrants are responsible for becoming fully informed re: their status in a new country before going there.

[bpk]

This post is a general response, not addressing Veronica's question above -- hopefully someone can.

My thought is that those considering an employment offer in NZ should apply for PR as soon as possible (and perhaps BPK did this -- sorry but I'm not sure). If the available process has costs, delays, or does not result in a grant of PR, this is not the govt.'s fault --
Unfortunately this is not the case with me. I never applied for PR directly because I presumed that the system in NZ is the same as any country in the world so I applied for work visa instead. If I would have know the system before like this, I would have applied for PR directly and I would certainly have got it.

[bpk]

Whose rule is that?

:confused:

Jo




The rule in 25 EU countries and probably other countries in Europe

[suebeenz]

The rule in 25 EU countries and probably other countries in Europe

And in the US and Canada.

But yes, I know many people here that do not have their work visa tied to a specific employer (because of partnership reasons).

[veronica]

yep that is what I was saying that usually the spouse of the main applicant has an open visa but the primary applicant is usually tied to one job/employer.

does anyone know of any PRIMARY applicants that have an open visa.

apart from unemployment and child benefit what else do you feel that you should have.

And while I know nothing about the states and canada regarding benefits I do know that in the states you have to pay for your own health benefits so apart from unemployment what else does your tax give you there that you don't get here while you are on a work visa.

[jo-and-jeff]

The rule in 25 EU countries and probably other countries in Europe
Exactly. But it's not in New Zealand.

I've found that the best way for a migrant to adjust and find a happy life in New Zealand, instead of complaining repeatedly about all the things that they don't think are "fair", is to accept that New Zealand is what it is -- rules and all -- and move on with making a life for themselves.

Best Wishes,
Jo

[willowshouse]

Interesting post .. for me, if it had cost us twice what it has cost us to get PR I'd have still thought it was worth it ...

You pay far more than you should for lots of things in this world - our medical cost more than $1500 for goodness sake .. they should have really been $500 if we're talking value for money here!

Maybe it isn't 'fair' that you get taxed as much but you just got to like it or lump it :p

[veronica]

well said.

[suebeenz]

About higher health care costs in US, that's usually moot for skilled migrants as companies will generally offer cheap medical (as well as for a set period after layoffs etc). Canada has a health care system closer to NZ's. I don't know anything about health care systems in EU nations.

I respectfully disagree with the 'quit your complaining!' attitude in this thread. I love NZ, but I don't have to like their tax/benefit system. True, soapboxing about it here isn't going to accomplish anything, but there are constructive ways of 'complaining', such as getting in contact with politicians here etc.

Maybe it all comes down to the health care system. Richer countries like in the EU and US/Canada can perhaps afford to absorb the cost of those who manage to abuse the system?

As it turns out, none of this is really an issue for me as I'm already headed down the PR path. I still wonder though, would NZ's economy come out ahead if its policies about benefits were more welcoming to skilled migrants.

[stu70]

I still wonder though, would NZ's economy come out ahead if its policies about benefits were more welcoming to skilled migrants.

What good point you make. As it stands, Canadian healthcare is good (with all its shortcomings). However as you mention, a country like NZ would benefit immensely if they were to better organize their immigrant-related services thus making it attractive to skilled migrants who are hunting for a decent place to live,work and contribute towards its prosperity. Maybe they can not afford to do so; the whole country has less people than say Toronto or New York for crying out loud!

[veronica]

If you come over as a skilled migrant on PR you have exactly the same health etc benefits as a new zealander.

[Sam B]

In response to some of the earlier points made, doesn't everyone have the right to seek the best life they can for themselves and their families - including illegal immigrants? it's all one world, and I wouldn't want to live in poverty in Senegal for example, if I thought I could get to Europe. In my experience, most immigrants from Eatern Europe in the Uk work hard at some pretty crap jobs.

I would question the costs of the immigration process. Speech and language therapy is on the long term skills shortage list, so they are clearly needed in NZ. Most SLTs earn fairly average wages and many have no savings and rent their home. Most cannot therefore afford the cost of emigration and would be put off. It's been a real struggle for us, and I had to get help from family.

Just my thoughts.

Sam