[spudulike]

I thought the following article may provide food for thought, particularly as people often complain about the possibility of UK and US using fingerprints and iris tests on a database and quote it as a reason to escape 'big brother mentality'.

Personally, I have no problem with it, anything to stop the senseless violence that is occurring all too frequently has to be a good thing! :yes

Migrants may be fingerprinted under future immigration changes

6.00pm Tuesday December 5, 2006

Proposed changes to the Immigration Act will enable biometric information such as fingerprints to be required before people can enter New Zealand.

Immigration Minister David Cunliffe today unveiled planned changes to the Act following its review aimed at making it easier to get skilled people to come here, and to beef up security.

A bill would be introduced by April and the Government hoped it would be passed within a year with the backing of NZ First and Progressives.

"What we've got here is a 20-year-old piece of legislation that was written for quite a different world than we now live in and so -- after more than a year's work -- I think we are now in a position where we've got a future-proof world class legislative basis to work off," Mr Cunliffe said.

Mr Cunliffe said a purpose statement would be included in the Act, setting out key goals and giving the Immigration Service a more proactive role.

"We're going to have to compete harder with other countries to get the skills we want, we're going to have to be sharper about identifying the particular migrants that can best assist New Zealand and we're going to have to be more competitive about going out and finding and recruiting people we need."

Changes included a simplified visa system, delegation of ministerial discretion powers, a single appeal body, changes to detention and requirements on employers to ensure workers were here legally.

Mr Cunliffe said the bill would enable biometric information like fingerprints or iris scans to be collected but policy on this was not yet developed.

"I think it's a fair bet that over time the system will need to move to a biometric base."

Biometric information provided better security but also, if it was not adopted, it could affect New Zealanders' ability to travel in other countries in future, he said.

"We are going to be moving over time to a biometric base for all migration applicants.

"That will be an anchor, if you like, on a new much improved IT central nervous system for the Immigration Service that will be rolled out progressively over the next few years, subject to the budget process."

Mr Cunliffe said reducing the appeal bodies from four to one would slash the amount of time appeals took and save money.

Green MP Keith Locke said the existing system was "hardly a soft touch" and said the Refugee Status Appeals Authority rejected 80 per cent of complaints.

Mr Cunliffe said judicial reviews on points of law would still be possible.

Classified information would still be used but claimants would be given a summary and, if it was the basis of a decision, they could appeal.

"In the post-911 world I'm afraid it's a sad fact of life that we do need the ability to use some special information under certain limited circumstances."

The Minister of Immigration would be able to delegate some of his discretionary powers to officials -- at the moment 4000 cases a year landed on his desk.

Serious and complex cases would still go to the minister.

The bill would also allow for detention centres to be set up. Apart from the Mangere centre, at the moment there are no detention options except police cells.

Officials would have greater powers to detain people.

Mr Cunliffe said human rights protections were "beefed up" by including in domestic law the refugee convention, the convention against torture and covenant on civil and political rights.

The Government was not signing the stateless persons convention but was not ruling it out in future.

"There's the potential for there to be a very large expansion in the number of claims if we did this without full info."

Mr Locke said the changes were anti-immigration and put administrative convenience ahead of rights to natural justice and due process.

NZ First associate immigration spokesman Peter Brown said the changes went some way to addressing its misgivings but the party still had concerns about the number and type of migrants allowed into New Zealand.

The review was the first stage and would be followed by a policy review and operational changes.

The Government would make announcements early next year about settlement of immigrants.

Louise :)

[Diny]

I don't have a problem with it either. I always take the stand of 'if you've nothing to hide it won't effect you'.

Diny

[marcia]

I agree with Diny - I've nothing to hide so its doesn't bother me and if it means the 'bad' guys can be traced and dealt with more easily then bring it on!!

[suebeenz]

I don't have anything to hide, but this sounds like one step closer to the patriot act. I came to NZ to get away from this stuff.

[real_sunfire]

I have to agree with suebeenz - but to add the only reason we are introducing these changes is becuas ethe US wants it. I have no desire to travel to the US ever so do I need to submit to this!

Rgds.,
Nick.

P.S. Apologies to any Americans on the forums but I simply don't agree with the approach your government is taking at the moment, not you personally.

[CjChris]

P.S. Apologies to any Americans on the forums but I simply don't agree with the approach your government is taking at the moment, not you personally.

No apology needed! ;)

Part of the reason I'm trying to leave this country is that I don't agree with the approach the government is taking!!! I don't like having my reputation and respectability as an American diminished on what seems to be a daily basis with the lame-brained decisions the government makes! :(

[Tia Maria]

I guess its whether you fall into the 'nothing to hide', or 'innocent until proved guilty category'. You also have to trust current and future politicians 100% to use this information properly.

Whatever your politics you have to consider a Hitler or Stalin in power, and then think how they might use the information.

Obviously you can see the benefits when the crime is murder, but what if those in power decided that crime is: Drinking alcohol or being a working Mum/Woman? (I have chosen these because its currently acceptable in this society but not in others).

I suspect the whole process of documenting every aspect of our lives is ineveitable, if only because it means companies can sell us more stuff. But personally I do my best to avoid it. So if I fill out a survey for smile city, I'll always be someone on a low income with absolutely no hobbies - and strangely enough I never get emails from any of their marketing campaigns!

Cheers

Tia

PS And yes I would have been put off applying to NZ if this had been in place. But maybe they want to keep a dangerous mother of 3 like me, out of the country.

[Tia Maria]

Its just been pointed out by my OH that I've gone and invoked Godwin's Law:

www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

Hope it doesn't end this thread!

Personally I think it just proves that my OH spends far too much time on the internet - as I'd never heard of it!

Cheers

Tia

[jo-and-jeff]

I guess its whether you fall into the 'nothing to hide', or 'innocent until proved guilty category'. You also have to trust current and future politicians 100% to use this information properly.
It's not just politicians you have to worry about. Law enforcement officials in the U.S. now have access to many more non-criminal information databases than they used to have. What's more, by law, any report of suspected terrorist activities must be taken seriously and investigated.

So, what if you decide to break up with the police officer you've been dating and he/she decides to get back at you? Think of what damage can be done to you or your identity if someone with malicious intent gets ahold of your SSN, driver's license number, birthdate, address, phone number, credit report?

What if your neighbor gets upset about the fact that your dog barks a lot, and decides to report you as a suspected terrorist? Your house can be searched without a warrant and without informing you first. Wiretaps can be placed on your phone and your e-mail without your knowledge. You can be arrested and thrown in jail, denied an attorney and a timely trial, and not even be told the charges against you.

Part of the reason that the obliteration of civil rights in the U.S. has been so extreme is because so many people said, "Well, I don't have anything to hide, why should I object?"

We should all object to things which erode our civil rights, because law enforcement and investigation are administered by human beings, who are fallible and sometimes subject to jealousy, pettiness, anger, vengefulness, and just plain stalkeritis. If the oversights and checks-and-balances previously provided by our civil rights are taken away, there is no one and nothing to stop the people with power from abusing it.

Think it can't happen to you?
Witness the recent discoveries of abuse of the 111 information system by NZ police personnel:
http://subs.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10413700
http://subs.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10413761

Jo

[stu70]

I don't have anything to hide, but this sounds like one step closer to the patriot act. I came to NZ to get away from this stuff.

This is the same nonsense Americans have been at for a while and sorry to say, these measures do didly for the security. Crooks aren't going to go through "regular" channels for getting into a country if the intentions were to harm a nation. It is always the common folks who pay the price for these stupid rules and the real culprits do what they need to do anyways.

If you think a police state is going to make a country safe, just look at Israel. Even they now have to talk peace with Palestinians from whom they stole the land all those years back!! Point is, you might feel the country is safer with these measures, but it only helps politicians score cheap points with the nervous public. It is a shame really.

[Ana&Steve]

P.S. Apologies to any Americans on the forums but I simply don't agree with the approach your government is taking at the moment, not you personally.
No offense taken, I don't agree with the government most of the time, either. :)
This fingerprinting thing works on paper, and when a heinous crime occurs I've wished briefly for a mass ID system, but I change my thoughts quickly as they always run back into a "Big Brother" situation. If a government had the trust of its people not to ever use sensitive info against them, (or against law abiding immigrants) maybe fingerprinting and IDing wouldn't be a big deal. :roll
Ana

[macs gold]

Migrants may be fingerprinted under future immigration changes

Seems reasonable to me - if I want to open a bank account I need to prove who I am, so it seems reasonable that if I move to a new country I should do the same. Given the ability of certain international organisations to forge documentary material, then using biometrics is the logical next step.

There was a case a couple of years back where some Israeli secret service types were caught using NZ passports in their 'activities'. The risk of reputational damage to NZ, and a loss in the goodwill attributed to NZ passport holders is significant.

[constablechuck]

In the words of one of our great american founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."

also

" Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

and

"Where liberty is, there is my country."

and

"Wars are not paid for in wartime, the bill comes later."


__________________________________________________ _________

If Ben Franklin were alive today I think he might be moving to NZ.

One thing I like about NZ is that they don't allow the private sector to misuse the IRD number the way the Social Security Number has been abused in the U.S., the SSN was only intended for social security and tax purposes, now it's used as a national ID# by both public and private agencies, peoples lives are often turned upside down by typographical errors and fraud involving SSN's, I work in law enforcement and with your SSN I can tell you almost everything about yourself, who your neighbors were 15 years ago, what state you were born in, everyplace you have lived since age 18, and that's only a few things, privacy is no longer an option here in the U.S.

[Caroline and Dave]

Recently we went on holiday to Canada where there was no problem. We then went on a cruise to Alaska and had to go through American customs. We were made to wait in a hall for over two hours and then we were photographed and fingerprinted and the whole process was very upsetting to some of the older people on our tour.
Now we have been informed by our travel agent when we come over to NZ because we are going via Los Angeles we will have to be photographed and fingerprinted again. In future we will avoid America.

Kindest regards

Dave and Caroline

[NeilV]

I now routinely avoid the US since i was "emprisoned" under armed guard for 8 hours when transiting LA en rout to NZ 6-months after 9/11 as an Undisirable [South African] TWOV [Travellign WithOut a Visa, as they had changed their policy and no longer had transit lounges. My SA-born wife had a NZ passport and walked the neighbourhood, went shopping etc. Born in the same city, let alone country - how could they judge me a criminal, and her an angel [though she is ;+) ] simply by the little book we used to travel with???

[stu70]

I now routinely avoid the US since i was "emprisoned" under armed guard for 8 hours when transiting LA en rout to NZ 6-months after 9/11 as an Undisirable [South African] TWOV [Travellign WithOut a Visa, as they had changed their policy and no longer had transit lounges. My SA-born wife had a NZ passport and walked the neighbourhood, went shopping etc. Born in the same city, let alone country - how could they judge me a criminal, and her an angel [though she is ;+) ] simply by the little book we used to travel with???
Welcome to "Excited States of America". There are many more that share your experience and do not travel to the States for the same reason; hassles and harassment.

[NeilV]

not to mention that the asian cities share a fantastic marketplace for modern electronics at bargain rates :raebanana

[bpk]

This needs more debate..
The question is security in favour of privacy...For me I do not mind if they have my fingerprint as I do not have anything to hide, but the problem can be more if they extend the issue to include other things.
After september 11, Many new actions were taken in Germany, for example they have recorded phone calls, monitor most of forigners (in particular arabs and muslims). This monitoring program included Bank account, work, phone calls, No of kids, family status,...etc
After one year, they stopped monitoring and sent the people whom were monitored a letter explaining. Away from security, is not that violationg the privacy?

In my opnion: Tight of security schould not compromise privacy

[NeilV]

right well the easiest way to discuss this would be to talk in extreems... who wants to live out George Orwell's 1984 Big Brother, or even the recent movie "the Truman show"???? even for my own good, It's NOT good!

Alternatively, _could_ this have prevented 9/11??? or will people find a way past whatever security there is anyway??

[toesonthenose]

Even if many of us feel we have nothing to hide, any information can be abused. Gays, liberals, Muslims, residents of New Orleans, just to name a few have earned the scorn of the Bush administration. People in the US are held without charge because of the powers of this administration. Just because you feel you have nothing to hide does not mean you are the right type of "Christian", or your personal decisions regarding health matters or birth control, or your political views are within an acceptable range. I once worked in a clinic where one of the staff gave all the names and addresses of physicians who prescribed, and patients who received birth control pills to a conservative Christian group who then started showing up at peoples houses including mine and tell us about our future in Hell! Privacy is very important, even if think you have nothing to hide, because there is some group out there that does not approve of some aspect of your life. Thus it is our duty to resist!
Remember, remember the 5th of November!

[stu70]

Here in Canada, there have been a LOT of miscarriages of justice all in the name of "improved security" (my eye!). They have deported people to places where they have been tortured. Later they found out it was a mistake. Tell it to the guy who had to live through the agony. In my opinion, the terror thing can only be won by winning the masses with reconciliation and negotiations. You abuse your power and the solution you get will only be temporary if any no matter how much power you have got. No point in turning this world into a big police state. I do not trust authority be it NZ or Canada. They are all humans and will make mistakes no matter what the safeguards.

[macs gold]

Please give us all some credit - there is a big difference between what is proposed in NZ for vetting potential immigrants, and what is supposedly happening in the US with their "war on terror".

Just because one Government has gone to extremes (and possibly infringed the trust that you should have for them) should not be used to stop what is a very reasoned and practical approach by another. Like I said in a previous post, a NZ passport is one of the more respected passports you can have, and I would hate it to be devalued because it became the favoured travel document for terrorists, triads and Mossad.

On the misuse of private information:
There are I believe fairly effective privacy laws in NZ, and if I recall it would be a serious criminal investigation or national security matter before a company would open up its information to the authorities. In some ways it is too extreme in NZ, they have had to pass new legislation to allow particular government departments to share information; eg. tax and welfare cross-checking to reduce fraud.