[Carol]

We have been in New Zealand for almost 11 years.
:clap
It has to be said - there are times I NEVER thought we would get to this point - it has been a wonderful journey - but one that has been difficult and emotionally consuming. But -worth it. NZ is not a perfect place to live. But we have learnt that nowhere is.


A good friend of mine (a teaching colleague) left NZ last July to start teaching in a school in the South of England.
She has kept me up to date with how things have gone - and it has been a really interesting few months reading her emails about her view of education in the UK.

What follows is a transcript from an email she sent me today.
I am ACUTELY aware that she is talking about one school Just one.
However - there are aspects to this that affect most schools.
Particularly the curriculum delivery part.

I am also aware that this school is in a high needs area. And that the majority of us on here wont recognise this as "the norm".
There are schools in NZ at a similar socio-economic level. With similar problems.


However, there is still something which disturbs me greatly about this email.
Maybe it is because it is an "outsider's" opinion and as such is unbiased.
If I am honest - it embarrasses me.

I DID experience this type of school in the North-East too.
It was my first year of teaching - and I couldnt wait to get out.
In fact - I got pregnant to make SURE I got out!

That was 15 years ago! We had to go on duty in pairs for safety. The school is not there any more - I believe it was burned down.
Later I taught in much nicer schools.
But I still found the curriculum prescriptive and stifling. And SATs! Dont get me started!

I know there is good teaching out there - in fact I have visited schools (while I was there last on holiday) and seen it. My concern is that this school will not be alone - by any stretch of the imagination. ANd these kids will be living in the same society my own kids would have grown up in if we had stayed.

In a nutshell - I am more convinced than ever that we did the right thing coming here.
NZ is not for everyone - but it IS for us!

Mmmm...teaching in the UK...I am aware that I am judging my experience just on one school, and one that lacks quality leadership, has poor systems of communication, shitty kids...and is poorly resourced...and that's on a good day!!! So, keep that in mind as you read further!!

Apparently there is money, however it is generated into areas I feel are of less importance, rather than supporting the curriculum. Each class has interactive smart boards, a laptop for each teacher (Mine is brand new) and that seems to be a general trend over here. The smart boards are brilliant - all classes should have them installed. Teachers - you must get one...they're fantastic, and I'd hate not to use one ever again!). The furniture is older, but matches. Unfortunately, the tables are doubles, which makes it difficult to separate individuals..and many do!!. Basic things that I would expect in a NZ classroom, such as curtains, crayons, dyes, a decent selection of art and coloured paper / card packs, marker pens etc were non existant, however when our team asked, we got! Pretty much anything I've asked for is given the ok for ordering.

Many kids at our school are disrespectful, very egocentric, incredibly immature, achieving below average, and some, well they are downright rude and disruptive with huge emotional baggage already. Sad really!!
I have been sworn at, which has never happened in any classes taught previously. A friend has also been sworn at and called a f... c...and has had a chair thrown at him twice, by the same student. That same student only turned up to school for three days out of the ten weeks that he has taught at the school so far; and whats more on those three occasions he was sent home each day by lunchtime.There is a separate 'Pupil Support Team' that works with the worst cases once we have exhausted systems within our classes, but students can be back in ten minutes at times. They will also exclude students if they are sent out of class three times in one day. I have about 2-4 students that I 'evict' on ocassions, usually weekly, although earlier last term, it was a daily occurance for about 4-9 students!!!...these are students who are actively disruptive, rude, have explosive incidents / fights / loud outbursts during classes!!

Unfortunately, when the Heads have parent meetings the class teacher is not involved in any way or form, and worse, we aren't informed of the outcomes. So a child will arrive back in class after a period of exclusion, with a contract / screen around their desk / Time out cards, and yet the class teacher is not aware of this process, and hasn't had any opportunity to suggest alternatives!!!

The actual teaching is very prescriptive and often lessons are mapped out for you. You also have to teach to prescribed programmes regardless of the individual needs. At this school, that means teaching to the whole class and missing the slower and bright students. When I tried to take reading and maths groups, I was reprimanded and shown a demonstration of exactly what to do!!! All in all, it's a boring and unmotivating system, which makes it difficult to engage students. I mean when Year 6 kids...10-11 year olds for those of you not in teaching...are asked to rote count only as far as 99 and add single digits, such as 4 + 6 = , then you can see the problems!! When I can teach the way I believe, ultilising best practice, my kids are tuned in, receptive and behave like normal motivated kids eager to learn and follow goals!! In situations like this, my kids love learning and really try to achieve their next learning steps. Also, thinking skills are not a foci here and they are big in NZ. Shame too, as these kids can't think cos they haven't been taught how. So that's another aspect that I am incorporating into my programmes. We have to do two programmes called ERR and ENR, which is the basis of their literacy and numeracy programmes. The kids learn to read by segmenting individual sounds like; string ...then they say each individual sound, for example, s..t..r..i..n..g...and we are supposed to do this 3 times a day for 5 minutes!!!! It's utter crap. So they decode words but don't understand what they read!!

However, without really trying that hard or meaning too, we have actually brought about some changes in the area of behaviour management, that are about to affect the whole school. Although pleased to be of assistance, we are a little concerned about the ' on the fly ' ways that changes are introduced arbitarily by the Heads.

I am sure this account will not mirror all schools in the UK, so we will try to get another job in another county and a different type of school to experience a wider cross section of the UK systems.

It's certainly not a system I'm happy teaching in and neither are any of the international teachers - we all hate it!! However, we also see this experience as a means to travelling regularly...another pound earnt...a trip to Paris, Krokov, Dubrovnic, Gallopoli, Munich and the like!! And, we can walk away from this without any sense of responsibility...we feel removed from it all. In fact one of our Canadian colleagues didn't arrive back after the Xmas break...he just booked a flight home, left their flat and took off a day before school started. Earlier last term a Kiwi guy packed it in after 4 weeks and so did a South African woman!!

All in all, there is not the satisfaction that we are a part of a professionally trained team doing a valued job on behalf of the needs of the children, the children's families and society as a whole.

Incidentally - this IS a primary school she is talking about!
The number of jobs she was offerred was amazing.
Apparantly many schools want a kiwi teacher in them!
I wonder why....
;)

[Nienke]

That's pretty depressing stuff to read. And I keep trying to keep in mind that she's talking about a primary school. :(

[ellenmelon]

freaky!
but not suprising aye.
i didnt go to school in ireland but my brothers and sister did. my sister did really well at school, only because she took initiative with her learning, not because of her teachers..all they did was rote learn and copy down screeds of information. easy peasy for the more intelligent kids, a bit of a struggle for the kids that found it hard at school as they would be writing stuff down they had no clue about because it wasnt explained. her teacher didnt want her to do the higher level of english because "he didnt really feel like teaching only her the more difficult stuff"!? in all my siblings classes (they ranged from 17-12) there were extremely violent kids who often stole off of everyone too. the violent kids were often travellers who often got away with a lot of it (sent home for a day, back the next day like nothing happened) because at the moment in ireland, travellers are claiming racism so no-one wants to offend them and they are treated with kid gloves..that and the parents openly threaten teachers and principals. and theyre not kidding!

the new zealand school system may not be perfect (though i never experienced any "bad" education) it beats the uk and ireland it seems!

[Carol]

Just to re-iterate - this is just one school.

Even one is too many as far as I am concerned though. And I know in my heart there will be many more.

My best friend in England has 3 wonderful daughters. Bright, beautiful, intelligent and motivated. They are a credit to their family and everyone who has taught them.
The school they went to bears no resemblence to what is written here.


But I also think they have been incredibly lucky.
To coin a phrase - "There but for the grace of God go they..."

[nippa&pippa]

I am sure my sisters and friends who is teachers would love to work at school that have no misbehave kids!! Both sisters and friends have either victim or witness of kids' amazing violences/swearing. One had a table threw at her! that may be why she end up teaching in NZ!! Schools in UK is pretty bad from secondary onwards.

[pieeater]

All my friends and family's offspring are doing very well in their U.K. schools so I don't think it is just 'Luck' that your friend is having with her girls.There are bad schools and good schools in my hometown,some even have 'excellent' reputations believe it or not.There are poor schools/unruly children,poorly motivated teachers down here too as I'm quite sure you know only too well. I think you pays your money and takes your choice on this one.I think it's also important to remember that she is an immigrant worker there so may struggle a bit on that count.She should move on and find something better,that's what we immigrants down here have to do after all.However I've been here in N.Z. long enough to know what the Kiwi's would tell me to do if I started pointing out faults with their their education system.However I'm an English Gentleman and will just wish her 'Good Luck' in her travels.

[wiki]

I'm not involved in the UK school system at all, but read an article in the Sunday Times yesterday about a London school that needs to find a new head after the 19-year incumbant said she was leaving.

They were told that to get a good head schools should start planning SEVEN YEARS ahead!

It also said that a lot of deputy heads don't want the promotion to head-teacher because the pay isn't very much more.

One Manchester school had paid a head-hunting agency £40,000 to find them the best head for them... that's a whole lot of teaching aid and school trips!

I guess like in any company, a school is often only as good as the gal/guy at the top - and the amount of red tape and paperwork that all teachers have to endure is bound to take away from good classroom and school management time.

[Paul]

We have been in New Zealand for almost 11 years.
:clap
It has to be said - there are times I NEVER thought we would get to this point - it has been a wonderful journey - but one that has been difficult and emotionally consuming. But -worth it. NZ is not a perfect place to live. But we have learnt that nowhere is.


A good friend of mine (a teaching colleague) left NZ last July to start teaching in a school in the South of England.
She has kept me up to date with how things have gone - and it has been a really interesting few months reading her emails about her view of education in the UK.

What follows is a transcript from an email she sent me today.
I am ACUTELY aware that she is talking about one school Just one.
However - there are aspects to this that affect most schools.
Particularly the curriculum delivery part.

I am also aware that this school is in a high needs area. And that the majority of us on here wont recognise this as "the norm".
There are schools in NZ at a similar socio-economic level. With similar problems.


However, there is still something which disturbs me greatly about this email.
Maybe it is because it is an "outsider's" opinion and as such is unbiased.
If I am honest - it embarrasses me.

I DID experience this type of school in the North-East too.
It was my first year of teaching - and I couldnt wait to get out.
In fact - I got pregnant to make SURE I got out!

That was 15 years ago! We had to go on duty in pairs for safety. The school is not there any more - I believe it was burned down.
Later I taught in much nicer schools.
But I still found the curriculum prescriptive and stifling. And SATs! Dont get me started!

I know there is good teaching out there - in fact I have visited schools (while I was there last on holiday) and seen it. My concern is that this school will not be alone - by any stretch of the imagination. ANd these kids will be living in the same society my own kids would have grown up in if we had stayed.

In a nutshell - I am more convinced than ever that we did the right thing coming here.
NZ is not for everyone - but it IS for us!

Mmmm...teaching in the UK...I am aware that I am judging my experience just on one school, and one that lacks quality leadership, has poor systems of communication, shitty kids...and is poorly resourced...and that's on a good day!!! So, keep that in mind as you read further!!

Apparently there is money, however it is generated into areas I feel are of less importance, rather than supporting the curriculum. Each class has interactive smart boards, a laptop for each teacher (Mine is brand new) and that seems to be a general trend over here. The smart boards are brilliant - all classes should have them installed. Teachers - you must get one...they're fantastic, and I'd hate not to use one ever again!). The furniture is older, but matches. Unfortunately, the tables are doubles, which makes it difficult to separate individuals..and many do!!. Basic things that I would expect in a NZ classroom, such as curtains, crayons, dyes, a decent selection of art and coloured paper / card packs, marker pens etc were non existant, however when our team asked, we got! Pretty much anything I've asked for is given the ok for ordering.

Many kids at our school are disrespectful, very egocentric, incredibly immature, achieving below average, and some, well they are downright rude and disruptive with huge emotional baggage already. Sad really!!
I have been sworn at, which has never happened in any classes taught previously. A friend has also been sworn at and called a f... c...and has had a chair thrown at him twice, by the same student. That same student only turned up to school for three days out of the ten weeks that he has taught at the school so far; and whats more on those three occasions he was sent home each day by lunchtime.There is a separate 'Pupil Support Team' that works with the worst cases once we have exhausted systems within our classes, but students can be back in ten minutes at times. They will also exclude students if they are sent out of class three times in one day. I have about 2-4 students that I 'evict' on ocassions, usually weekly, although earlier last term, it was a daily occurance for about 4-9 students!!!...these are students who are actively disruptive, rude, have explosive incidents / fights / loud outbursts during classes!!

Unfortunately, when the Heads have parent meetings the class teacher is not involved in any way or form, and worse, we aren't informed of the outcomes. So a child will arrive back in class after a period of exclusion, with a contract / screen around their desk / Time out cards, and yet the class teacher is not aware of this process, and hasn't had any opportunity to suggest alternatives!!!

The actual teaching is very prescriptive and often lessons are mapped out for you. You also have to teach to prescribed programmes regardless of the individual needs. At this school, that means teaching to the whole class and missing the slower and bright students. When I tried to take reading and maths groups, I was reprimanded and shown a demonstration of exactly what to do!!! All in all, it's a boring and unmotivating system, which makes it difficult to engage students. I mean when Year 6 kids...10-11 year olds for those of you not in teaching...are asked to rote count only as far as 99 and add single digits, such as 4 + 6 = , then you can see the problems!! When I can teach the way I believe, ultilising best practice, my kids are tuned in, receptive and behave like normal motivated kids eager to learn and follow goals!! In situations like this, my kids love learning and really try to achieve their next learning steps. Also, thinking skills are not a foci here and they are big in NZ. Shame too, as these kids can't think cos they haven't been taught how. So that's another aspect that I am incorporating into my programmes. We have to do two programmes called ERR and ENR, which is the basis of their literacy and numeracy programmes. The kids learn to read by segmenting individual sounds like; string ...then they say each individual sound, for example, s..t..r..i..n..g...and we are supposed to do this 3 times a day for 5 minutes!!!! It's utter crap. So they decode words but don't understand what they read!!

However, without really trying that hard or meaning too, we have actually brought about some changes in the area of behaviour management, that are about to affect the whole school. Although pleased to be of assistance, we are a little concerned about the ' on the fly ' ways that changes are introduced arbitarily by the Heads.

I am sure this account will not mirror all schools in the UK, so we will try to get another job in another county and a different type of school to experience a wider cross section of the UK systems.

It's certainly not a system I'm happy teaching in and neither are any of the international teachers - we all hate it!! However, we also see this experience as a means to travelling regularly...another pound earnt...a trip to Paris, Krokov, Dubrovnic, Gallopoli, Munich and the like!! And, we can walk away from this without any sense of responsibility...we feel removed from it all. In fact one of our Canadian colleagues didn't arrive back after the Xmas break...he just booked a flight home, left their flat and took off a day before school started. Earlier last term a Kiwi guy packed it in after 4 weeks and so did a South African woman!!

All in all, there is not the satisfaction that we are a part of a professionally trained team doing a valued job on behalf of the needs of the children, the children's families and society as a whole.

Incidentally - this IS a primary school she is talking about!
The number of jobs she was offerred was amazing.
Apparantly many schools want a kiwi teacher in them!
I wonder why....
;)


As you say Carol only one school but quite shocking none the less. Any idea how this school stacks up in the league tables? Be interested to see whether the supposed higher ranking schools have the same sort of problems in the UK

As a teacher (former teacher?) in NZ would you say you have found a better level of basic behaviour and willingness to learn?

Thanks

[Debbie P.]

I am not remotely surprised by any of this.

Having said that, it's a shame that the minority of VERY bad kids spoil it for the majority of nice kids. I still believe that most children have good qualities.

Bad kids get away with it because of parents' (and society's) attitudes to teachers these days - they're basically viewed as childminders with no autonomy whatsoever. We can't expect children to have a good opinion of them when their parents don't.

I really wish that one of the UK national papers would start a campaign to highlight the issues and force the government to improve the situation in schools. If nothing happens, in a few years' time most parents who want a decent education for their children will be remortgaging their houses to afford private schooling.

[StevieD]

Carol, your friends email actually gave me an "oh my God" moment, not with the content, but when I scrolled down the page to the bit about it being a primary school, I had already got it in my mind that it was a secondary school. As you and others have rightly said, just one school, but forgetting the UK bad/NZ good scenario which can develop sometimes on the forum, it is incredibly sad to see the level of behaviour that teachers have to contend with. Most kids are well behaved, but it is always the bad apples, the bullies who are noticed.
When I lectured in FE, I had the best response from the more mature students, most trouble from the 16 year olds, straight out of school.

I don't know what is wrong with the world, it seems to me that all the additives and chemicals in our foodstuffs are having a detrimental effect on the human race. Behavour and attitudes are atrocious, and I don't know where it will all end. I just know that I sympathise with the teachers. It is not an easy lot. I have a friend here at the moment, who was a teacher but had to retire due to ill health. She looked at the email and just nodded her head, as if she not surprised. Her sister was threatened with a gun a few weeks before Xmas - she an NQT, and don't be surprised to see her heading out to NZ in a couple of years time.

Steve

[Diny]

Certainly is worrying reading - but you're right, we have to keep in mind that this is JUST ONE school.

You're also right in saying that schools like this exist in NZ too (in fact world wide), sadly red tape and politics manage to 'stuff up' many a good system.

However (putting the cracked record back on the turntable) - my boys have been educated in both NZ and the UK - and when you put all the political **** to one side and bring it back down to academics (which in my opinion is what school is all about), as far as teaching kids the 3 R's (for me) the UK wins hands down - just no contest.
Mind you, I'm looking at the situation as a parent not from a teachers point of view and we were lucky enough to have lived in a rural area with VERY good schools.

Just one of those subjects that will always have very definate and emotional opinions from all sides. It's funny that the thread is titled 'why we left' ........ if I had to be honest, the 'education' my boys are receiving in NZ would probably be one of the main reasons we would head back home.

Diny

[Sam B]

Wow that account is so far from my children's primary school in Cornwall, I can't believe it's in the same country. Primary school children? Yikes! I'm glad NZ schools don't sound too academic, bright children will always learn to read & write, much more important to socialise and have fun. Who remembers anything they learned at school? Give a person the basic skills to research and develop and you can do it by yourself.

[spudulike]

I agree that this is depressing reading but it is only one school (although clearly one too many) - having worked in the education system in the UK and with the intention of teaching in the UK when I go home I don't feel I have seen any other school's as badly run as this. I think your teaching friend is extremely unlucky rather than your other friend's children being lucky to be in a good school.

At risk of upsetting anyone, what did stand out is that any teacher who is only working to pay for their next holiday (and I have come acoss many like this) will never get the results they want. I'm sure as any teacher is aware, it is not a profession you can undertake simply for the money. I would advise your friend to take a job in a school she feels she can have some enthusiasm for (both for her own sanity and to give the children in her class the chance of a new teacher with different skills). As for the prescriptive nature of teaching, I am completely in agreement with the literacy and numeracy stategies and please bear in mind there was an article here saying children were not achieving high standards. Not to mention the fact they will soon be able to go through their entire NZ school life until Uni without sitting an exam.

There are flaws in every system and always will be - and there will always be people moving from the UK who are willing to criticise what is a good education system as it validates their reason for moving. Although I appreciate you are not one of them carol :)

I wish your friend the best of luck and hope she finds a school that gives her a good opinion of the education system there.

L :)

[veronica]

well said sam B having educated out two kids at home until age 11 when they chose to go to school (for the company, not the education) I am strongly of the opinion that bright kids will learn wherever and being taught to think for themselves and being allowed some autonomy in what they learn will benifit all kids.

I have also worked in the (normal comprehensive) and feel that most schools would get by a lot better if the govt. let the teachers do the teaching and see what results they get without the national 'standardisation' that at present seems to stifle teaching. Having said that the most important person in any school is the Head as they are the ones that set the standards and tone of the school. Get a good one and any school will do well.

[Diny]

Sam B ..... I have a huge amount of respect for your views and will fight to the last for your right to voice them. In fact I had to smile when I read your above post as it's as far removed from my way of thinking as it's possible to get. This idea that school should teach social skills and let the '3 Rs' take care of themselves is - for me - the most tragic (not a very good choice of word) attitude it's possible to take as a parent. However, I'm fully aware that the majority of people think that because I feel school should be a place of academic learning not a place for kicking balls around and making daisy chains, I'm 'way off and very strange'.

It's funny how people can have such differing opinions - and always very interesting.

Yet again my good buddy Lou (spudulike) has hit the nail directly on the head with her wise words.

To put it in a very simplistic way. I totally believe that kids should go to school to learn academic subjects. Although a certain amount of social development should be included in the timetable I believe that as parents it's our job to take care of that side of things. I guess I'm just old fashioned.

As for the question 'who remembers anything they learned at school anyway'? .......

...... err ....... I do !!


Diny

[Helsandfamily]

Hi,

Just put on the flak jacket so hope I am safe to join in the debate.

It seems to me that there has to be a happy medium in all this. In my son's school ( he is 6 and in year 1) there is so much pressure on them to perform and they have increased the amount of work that is expected of them, it is almost silly. They have introduced joined up handwriting to children in reception year, when they haven't yet mastered forming the letters correctly. My concern is that at this tender age if it is all work and no fun, then it could be enough to put the children off for good.

Please don't misunderstand me I do put a lot of emphasis on the three R's but there is a lot more to schooling than JUST that.

Hels ( in hiding waiting for the response)

[Diny]

I agree, what is it they say about all work and no play making Jack a dull boy - how true is that.

However, maybe they should 'invent' a saying that goes .... 'all play and a tiny bit of work thrown in makes Jack a tad thick'.

Kids are kids, and whoever said that a bright child will succeed whatever the situation was right. However, it's also 2nd nature for a kid (of any age) to choose play over work and if this ethic is instilled into them from day one it's going to be one heck of a hard habit to break.

Now then, if I ruled the world ........................

Diny

[Lisa&Andy]

Carol,
Although this is only one school I was very shocked to read this inorformation, especially in a Primary School. I am a Secondary School Teacher (social subjects) and I work in Glasgow. I have been teaching for around 8 years and in my first year and a half teaching had some pretty scary experiences which included my car windscreen being smashed and some very innapropriate and intimidating behaviour from teeangers aged 11-18 :( . However, I am in a very nice school now and have been there around 6 years, kids at my school will hold the doors open for staff and are generally polite and well-mannered. We are planning a move to NZ late 2007 early 2008 (North Shore, possibly near Auckland due to husband's work) and I have to say that I have had a few moments where I feel a bit worried about what the schools in NZ will be like?? From what I have been reading there seems to be good and bad schools everywhere, all depending on senior management, funding, resources, catchment area, socio-economic background.
Any advice you have re: NZ Secondary Schools would be really appreciated

Lisa x

[Diny]

[QUOTE=Carol]My best friend in England has 3 wonderful daughters. Bright, beautiful, intelligent and motivated. They are a credit to their family and everyone who has taught them.
The school they went to bears no resemblence to what is written here.


QUOTE]


Just reading through this thread again. Just wanted to add to the comment made by Carol above.

I have several nieces and nephews over here and lots of my UK mates have school/school leaver age kids. They are (with the exception of just one) bright, intelligent, articulate, motivated and a pleasure to associate with. They've all been state educated - the eldest started to study medicine at uni last September, another is starting her training this Sept to become a vet. My best friends son is starting a law degree this year too. All the others show every indication of following in these footsteps too.

I will be the first to say that schools like the one mentioned in the e-mail do exist - and like Carol says .... just one is too many. Yes, I'm absolutely certain that there's more like it. However, just once in a while, just to keep old duffers like me happy, can't we just acknowledge the fact that there are still good schools turning out good young adults.

Diny

[Debbie P.]

I agree that this is depressing reading but it is only one school (although clearly one too many) - having worked in the education system in the UK and with the intention of teaching in the UK when I go home I don't feel I have seen any other school's as badly run as this. I think your teaching friend is extremely unlucky rather than your other friend's children being lucky to be in a good school.

At risk of upsetting anyone, what did stand out is that any teacher who is only working to pay for their next holiday (and I have come acoss many like this) will never get the results they want. I'm sure as any teacher is aware, it is not a profession you can undertake simply for the money. I would advise your friend to take a job in a school she feels she can have some enthusiasm for (both for her own sanity and to give the children in her class the chance of a new teacher with different skills). As for the prescriptive nature of teaching, I am completely in agreement with the literacy and numeracy stategies and please bear in mind there was an article here saying children were not achieving high standards. Not to mention the fact they will soon be able to go through their entire NZ school life until Uni without sitting an exam.

There are flaws in every system and always will be - and there will always be people moving from the UK who are willing to criticise what is a good education system as it validates their reason for moving. Although I appreciate you are not one of them carol :)

I wish your friend the best of luck and hope she finds a school that gives her a good opinion of the education system there.

L :)

All I can say to this is... I wish Carol's friend luck with finding a school that has children with enthusiasm. My OH would be happy enough to find a school where he is not told to f*** off to his face by kids who know that the most punishment they will get is 1 hour detention. Enthusiasm rather than resigned obedience would be a major plus, but he's not expecting miracles. And before anyone says that he should move to another school, I should say that he has taught in 7 schools during 17 years of teaching and in only 1 was there decent discipline. Unfortunately, at that time we had decided to move out of London, thinking that we would find a nice standard of living and also decent work in my home town on the south coast - how wrong we were (that's the reason why he's taught in so many schools - he's simply been trying to find a decent one :( ). Admittedly, he's a secondary school teacher, but my sister is a primary school teacher and has been sworn at and physically attacked by her pupils in so-called leafy Bournemouth.

The other problem is that it's increasingly difficult for experienced teachers to move to a new job - the more experienced you are, the more expensive you are, and many UK schools can only afford NQTs now. So he has to stay on at his current school feeling more and more miserable and YES, working just to earn money for his holidays. And boy, does he earn them.

I'm not saying that NZ schools are any better or any worse than this. I'm just pointing out that Carol's friend might not be able to move to a different school. And I genuinely hope that you don't find yourself in the same situation when you get back - no sarcasm intended, because I would really hate for anyone to be in my husband's situation. When I see how a good dedicated teacher has been turned into a nervous wreck who now just wants to get out of his profession, I could (and occasionally do) cry.

[NeilV]

Just reading through this thread again. Just wanted to add to the comment made by Carol above.

However, just once in a while, just to keep old duffers like me happy, can't we just acknowledge the fact that there are still good schools turning out good young adults.
Diny

To be honest I had several things to reply to various people as I read through this thread but this last one is irresistable to me [ :uhoh ]

Diny - Although I have a slightly more open view on schools ameliorating childrens social development, I fully believe that it is predominantly the PARENT[S] RESPONSIBILITY to turn out "good young adults", and the school/teachers responsibility to develop their knowledge and knowledge aquisition skills. Enthusiastic kids who know how to find things out for themselves, learn far more [content AND breadth] than rote-taught kids - whose knowledge will always be limited by the views/knowledge/ignorance of the people teaching them [parents, teacher or peers]


Spudulike - an education which is based on age rather than skill [like SATS - where you proceed to the next year group irrespective of whether you are ready or not] will "always" turn out a percentage of kids who simply "can't be asked" to learn, and ascribe to a culture who holds little or no value in education

Spudulike - Also, I completely believe that the LACK of enthusiasm a teacher has for any topic taught affects the [general] enthusiasm of their pupils to learn that topic, but has LESS affect on whether an unmotivated child will become motivated themself.

As an immigrant to the UK, I have no experience of being taught in a British school [I grew up in South Africa], but as a UK trained primary teacher [Newham] I can honestly testify that the key feature in childrens academic progress is their parents support/interest/and value in their kids education.

To simplify, the socio-economic area, teachers ability, schools leadership, govt curriculum [etc.] is less determinative on an individual childs progress, than their parents view on education.

Almost IRRESPECTIVE of the ability/skill/enthusiasm of the teacher teaching [which does have a large effect, but not the determining one.
the more interested, involved, and motivated the parent is the more progress the child tends to make. [although this is not entirely definitive, some kids seem determined to succeed [I]in spite of their parents lack of interest or concern - and some latch onto a particular teacher who simply showed a measure of care and belief in the child's ability to suceed]

*breathe*

Now before any parent's who had kids go "astray" hire the nearest hitman, there comes a point [generally post-Primary] when the childs chosen peers have more sway on their development than even their parents.

Admittedly, with no children on the way [yet!] my plan to train my children "in the way they should go" and instill in them the skills to choose their peers wisely, and develop their own learning, have yet to find fulfilment.

Having two Primary teachers for parents could swing it either way!
[my OH is NZ trained, UK QTS - and feels similarly to me]


and all that with only 2 smilies!
** :exit Running for the nuclear bunker**

[Debbie P.]

To simplify, the socio-economic area, teachers ability, schools leadership, govt curriculum [etc.] is less determinative on an individual childs progress, than their parents view on education

:clap

[stu70]

There is NO doubt in my mind that parents(some) place too much emphasis on how the teachers should be training their kids for all kinds of good things. In my opinion, all the imparting of value system begins at home with parents. No point in blaming schools/teachers and/or expecting them to do what parents ought to be doing in the first place.My 2 cents

[Sam B]

Nothing like a good debate! Yeah Diny, you're right, I do remember most of what I learned at school, I'm just not sure that I use much of it now I'm an adult. The ability to research and self-motivate that I learned at university has been more useful than the life cycle of the male fern if you know what I mean.

I'm not a tree-hugging hippy - I guess my views on education are based on my memories of my ultra-strict, high achieving boarding school, and the fact that my eldest child is very bright, but finds it hard to socialise. She learns more at home through reading than she does at school, but it is invaluable for helping her to make friends.

Anyway, keep it coming - I like a debate I can get my teeth into!

Sam

[Junnifer USA]

We arrived 2 years ago with an age 10 year old boy. COming from the US, he was in Grade/year 5.

We moved to a town on the north perimeter of Christchurch, just a middle eco-status school zone. WIthin 1 month, against our wishes, they had moved my son to year 8, the 'advanced' class, with 12 and 13 year old students.
It was a social disaster, as my son was too young. It was a sports disaster, as he was too small to compete with year 8 boys for teams. Scholastically, he was learned nothing. I had to hire a tutor so my son didn't start forgetting the basics: fractions, 2 digit multiplication, long division...skills that his class still was not using. These were skills my son had started to develop 1-2 years earlier in the US. Additionally, the bullying was shocking. My 10 year old was regularly attacked by 12/13 year old boys. He often came home with his uniform pants in torn beyond use, his bike broken, lunch stolen, bruised, cut, and hungry. The school did nothing. When the bullying extended to our home phone and cell phone... into the night, that was the last straw. My husband told the parents of students involved that he would call the police if there was another episode. That is what it took to stop the bullying, immediately.

When my son reported an incident to the teacher or administrator, the school punished both children equally, the bully and the victim. My son would say, "why should I tell the headmaster, I don't want to be punished for being beaten-up" How pathetic! We intervened also. It only changed things for a day or so.

As an example of the mediocrity, my son's only homeword assignment that required more than 10 minutes was to write a paragraph about Tom Cruise, a movie actor of great wealth.

During the wecond term, my son missed 7 weeks of school with galandular fever, mononucleosis. I checked with the school repeatedly to bring homework to my son. "No, he isn't missing anything," they told me. That was the truth!

In the meantime, we searched for another school. We eventually placed our son into a private school, Cathedral Grammar, across from Christ's College. The education was excellent and challenging. The school expectations were very high, and the teachers were truly dedicated. Bullying was not tolerated. Foul language was punished, violence was punished. Bad behavior was rare, because the consequence were severe.

I am a strong supporter of the public school system, but an even stronger supporter of my son's opportunity to a real education.

My kid is pretty average. He prefers his bike to homework. He preferes lunch to any other subject. He reads at home, but would prefer a movie. He loves sports. He hates cleaning his room. He is rough and tumble. Now he is 12, soon to be 13, and taller, stronger and faster than the local bullies. They don't mess with him at the park, bike track, or other play areas. He took one kid down to the dirt in a brawl about a year ago, where lots of kids saw it. Nobody messes with my son now. And, the girls love him.

There are great schools in NZ. Unfortunately it took a while for us to find one. And, unfortunately it was not a public school in our zone.

For high school we choose to keep him in the Private School system for 2 reasons:

1. We felt betrayed by all the promises the public school made when we first interviewed the school headmaster/assistant headmaster/home room teacher (prior to purchasing our home in the town). We no longer trust what we are told. We never saw any extension classes, no discipline, no enforcement of rules, not teaching assistants for accelerated classes. Nothing that was promised or described. The school didn't even have a library. (It did have over 500 kids)

2.If we were to enter our son into a public school, and want to change later, during the high school years, it is much more difficult to find an opening in a top school mid-way into the 5 years of high school.

Every family has different experiences. And I have seen many people find great schools in their various zones. It took us a while to work out the problems presented by our local school. Other immigrant families in our zone obviously feel different, as there are several still attending our local school. THere are, however, a good number of recent immigrant families whose children commute into private schools in Chch.

We do feel the financial burden of private tuition. that pain should be over in 5 years! Guess we will be doing a lot of camping at the $5 sites!! No island holidays for a while!!
Jen

[Carol]

Having two sons who have gone through the early stages of public High school here - that scenario is (again) not one I would recognise at all.

So we keep coming back to the same point........ just one school.


My original topic title was Why we left - and that is still true.
However - the emigration journey doesn't stop when your feet land on NZ soil.
We are still learning.
One thing we have learned is that no matter where you go - there are good and bad schools. Some are terrible.
We wanted our kids to reach their own goals - not those "expected" or "reported" in a league table or private school's prospectus.

We moved house to get our son into the zone of the public High School of our choice.
The difference between two "open evenings" at the two High Schools we were looking at was unbelievable. We came out of our local one and rang a Real Estate agent to put the house up for sale.

We are very happy with the way things have gone....
But again - it's just one school.

I have encouraged my friend in the UK to get out and experience another school. But..... there will remain a class of kids who enjoy the experiences of her extensive teaching ability (when she is allowed to do it the way she knows works best) who will miss out on that. How sad.

Why is a good teacher like that reprimanded for getting results when the year before they couldnt get a teacher to stay in the class! It is beyond me!

Incidentally - it incenses me that in bullying situation victims are punished. There are proven ways and means of dealing with such problems.
The methods were spawned in the UK - known as "No Blame" and are being developed in NZ under the Kia Kaha programme.
It actually disgusts me that a school is not practising what it preaches - either that or they are not aware of the methods I am talking about. But they should be!



I've left teaching for a while - just to have a bit of space.
I've worried myself that my passion had gone - but actually - I don't think it has...... I just need a rest!
;)

[Carol]

By the way - I'd just like to say at this point that it's great to be able to discuss an emotive topic like this in the way we are....
That's probably going to put the kiss of death on it - but I hope not.

I like and admire Diny greatly. We have completely opposite opinions about what we want out of an education system - and we probably wont ever agree.
Makes no difference though - 'cause we can actually talk about it then go off and have a gin and a good time.

Communication is a great thing!

And THAT is what school should be all about......learning how to communicate effectively (in both directions - giving and receiving) in many and varied different ways.

[K&CS]

Junnifer USA, that's really intersesting. Can you tell me which school it is? If you'd rather PM me, then that's fine. Cathedral Grammar has an excellent reputation - I know a couple of people with boys there. I'm glad you've finally found a good school. For our girls in a few years, we're considering Rangi Ruru and St Margaret's. There are no decent public schools in our area either, although primary education is excellent.
Kate

[spudulike]

I have encouraged my friend in the UK to get out and experience another school. But..... there will remain a class of kids who enjoy the experiences of her extensive teaching ability (when she is allowed to do it the way she knows works best) who will miss out on that. How sad.


;)


I hope your friend finds something where she is able to use her skills, and you're right - it is sad she is not able to do so there!

I think there have been some wonderful viewpoints discussed on this thread and in a very respectful manner!! Education will always be one of those issues where everyone wants what is best for their child and each person's expectations are going to be very different!

Spudulike - an education which is based on age rather than skill [like SATS - where you proceed to the next year group irrespective of whether you are ready or not] will "always" turn out a percentage of kids who simply "can't be asked" to learn, and ascribe to a culture who holds little or no value in education [in UK-generally lower soc-econ live-off-dole variation]
I think I must've sent out the wrong message with my last post (had my 2 year old helping - sorry). When I said I agree with some of the more prescriptive teaching I was actually referring to the literacy and numeracy strategies as I think they're well thought out and prior to their introduction the guidelines where not strict enough (IMO anyway). I certainly do not believe in teaching to SAT's although I do think the children need to be assessed and the teacher held accountable as well as the school's senior management for gross failings.

I do believe that school's primary function is to educate the child rather than 'just fun' although the two shouldn't be mutually exclusive. A good teacher will make learning fun but I agree with Diny that given the option between work and play a child will choose to play (which is only natural). However, if this was all a school is for then you would only need a babysitter and not a qualified teacher! I do not agree with children lying on cushions doing their written work which many people hail as a wonderful way of Kiwi teaching (and I know not all NZ schools do this). Apart from anything else it is not a good position to learn to write but also it is healthy for children to learn the difference between work and play.

On a personal level, I would like my children educated in an environment they enjoy being in and preferably with a teacher that makes learning a pleasurable experience. There are playtimes at school and plenty of school holidays where my children can play until their hearts are content. I think as a parent it is also my responsibility to provide a balance and as I said before, each parents expectation is very different. :)

L

[sizzlingbadger]

Love the discussion on this thread.

I have a friends in the UK with both good and bad experiences of schools, same here in NZ. As has been said before everyone has good and bad experiences of life and no two people are going to have the same opinions.

Have to say one point that was made where kids would choose play over learning is not always the case.

I think I've mentioned before the case of Yr 1s in my son's school here in NZ, whose whole term revolved around butterflies and nature because of the butterflies that hatched out on the plant outside their classroom. I love that the whole idea was completely spontaneous and outside any scripted curriculum that would have crushed their whole interest in the UK. The teacher was great in that numbers, science, reading and writing was all based around this one topic with her planned lessons intertwined :-)

[Carol]

I think I've mentioned before the case of Yr 1s in my son's school here in NZ, whose whole term revolved around butterflies and nature because of the butterflies that hatched out on the plant outside their classroom. I love that the whole idea was completely spontaneous and outside any scripted curriculum that would have crushed their whole interest in the UK. The teacher was great in that numbers, science, reading and writing was all based around this one topic with her planned lessons intertwined :-)


It CAN be done....and even planned for!!
And IS done - much more often here than I found I could do in the UK where unfortunately SATs ruled the day.

One of the best units I ever taught here was on head lice.
Through necessity! The class was rife with them.

I'd planned to do "Transport"

Well it's loosely connected....
;)
Got some great writing out of them that term! Transactional AND Creative!
;)

[spudulike]

One of the best units I ever taught here was on head lice.
Through necessity! The class was rife with them.

I'd planned to do "Transport"

Well it's loosely connected....
;)


:laugh :laugh :laugh

[sizzlingbadger]

Excellent :laugh

[NeilV]

I think as a parent it is also my responsibility to provide a balance and as I said before, each parents expectation is very different. :)

L
Which is exactly the focus I [tried to] take.

The parents on this thread are the ones who are LEAST likely to need to read it [IMO], since they ARE the concerned ones who take responsibility for their childs learning...


I do believe that school's primary function is to educate the child rather than 'just fun' although the two shouldn't be mutually exclusive. A good teacher will make learning fun but I agree with Diny that given the option between work and play a child will choose to play (which is only natural). However, if this was all a school is for then you would only need a babysitter and not a qualified teacher!

A good teacher is one who inspires children to feel like the "work" they are doing IS fun, and instills an 'instictive' love for learning and knowledge in their class.
[instills instinct...hmmm :confused: ]

Picky I know, but even calling it "work" has been said to give it a negative bias, its now more positively referred to as "learning", which really NEED NOT be limited to what gets written in a book to show at parents day.

[spudulike]

Which is exactly the focus I [tried to] take.

The parents on this thread are the ones who are LEAST likely to need to read it [IMO], since they ARE the concerned ones who take responsibility for their childs learning...



A good teacher is one who inspires children to feel like the "work" they are doing IS fun, and instills an 'instictive' love for learning and knowledge in their class.
[instills instinct...hmmm :confused: ]

Picky I know, but even calling it "work" has been said to give it a negative bias, its now more positively referred to as "learning", which really NEED NOT be limited to what gets written in a book to show at parents day.

Hi Neil,

I think we're both saying pretty much the same thing in a slightly different way :yes This is the problem with writing on a forum I guess, it's hard to read somebody's 'tone'.

All the best with your move!! :nice1

L

[NeilV]

All the best with your move!! :nice1

L

Thanks! :D

[Diny]

What a fantastic thread, I've enjoyed reading it. Carol is right - we'll never agree on education but can discuss it until the cows come home and then move on to a G&T.

Great discussion folks - lets have more like them.

Diny

[NeilV]

What a fantastic thread, I've enjoyed reading it. Carol is right - we'll never agree on education but can discuss it until the cows come home and then move on to a G&T.

Great discussion folks - lets have more like them.

Diny


hehe :D

G&T is also teacher talk here for Gifted and Talented Kids :nice1