[Sam B]

I don't mean the grass... I mean, how environmentally aware is it generally? How much do people recycle? Are there kerbside collections? Is there less packaging and less consumerism? Less unneccessary car use? Less litter? Can you refill stuff intead of buying new bottles? Do people re-use carrier bags? That sort of thing.....

[veronica]

its nowhere near as 'green' as I expected it to be. two things that contribute to that ungreeness is low population so not the need to be as careful. the second also stems from low population. it costs money to recycle and on the southisland in particular they haven't the resources yet to make recycling of all materials viable, eg. they can only recycle plastics with the 1 and 2 symbol.

they are only just talking about emissions from cars being tested, a lot of nasties are used in Agriculture and I am not sure how they process the sewage here. packaging is pretty much the same as the rest of the western world. In Chch they do have kerbside collection, glass, some plastics, cardboard, paper, tins and carrier bags can be recycled.

On the plus side here in Chch they really do encourage you to recycle what they can process.

The Chch council website details what can be recycled etc so can only assume that other area councils will do the same. took some finding but the info is there.

[Trigirl]

in wellington they collect plastic bottles, glass, paper, cardboard and cans from the roadside once a week.

I am not sure how they process the sewage here. here in welly sewerage is processed at three plants in the city. treated liquid is put bac into the sea, sludge is sent to a company called living earth who turn it into compost for use at the karori wildlife sanctuary and other such places.

[wanderingoregonian]

Not as greeen as I had hoped... but Wellington lends its self to less car use (very walkable, bus in central area), many people bring their own grocery bags (and its saves you money at places like pak n save), curbside recycling (as TriGirl said) is available and at least at my work very much encouraged at the office...

I have seen some indications that the environment must be somewhat considered when people are developing things... I accompanied someone once who was studying an estuary to determine if a proposed mussel farm would have too much of an effect, but I suspect the required environement impact report is fairly easy to get around for big developers if they wanted to.

I find it a bit hard to find 'green' washing powders and such, but they are there and at least a few in all the mainline grocery stores. Also, things are a bit more expensive here (manufactured things) which I think prevents some of the disposibility mindset I often saw in the states. Trademe keeps a lot of used goods and appliances out of the dump by having them move from household to household.

I do get the sense that people talk about these issues and I wouldn't feel strange at all for doing some of my 'greener' things here. Recently a friend of mine from the states who works on sustainability issues and alternative transport visited in NZ and met with the head of the Green Party here and was really impressed with some of the initiatives. So while things are hardly perfect, forward movement is possible and while lower population means you don't HAVE to do things, its also easier to steer things and try new things too.

[*Paul]

Veronica stated it very accurately - it's only a low population density that allows us to get away with it. And it's the low population that makes a serious green effort expensive.

Car ownership per capita is among the highest in the world, and the average vehicle age is 12 years.

Here's is NZ's vehicle emissions law: "your vehicle must not smoke for more than 10 seconds at a time" - that's it!
Nothing more than the tip of the iceberg. As the Greens (party) have pointed out, most of the serious emissions are invisible.
There are many under-maintained old diesel vehicles here (like trade vans) that emit excessive particulates, which contribute to the high asthma rate.

Most of NZ's vehicle imports are used cars from Japan that have *failed* their emissions regulations. I dearly wish the government would stop that immediately, but the motor trade groups have a strong lobby. Honda is outspoken on this subject of stopping imports and has shown the most awareness of the subject.

I was shocked to find that old TVs and monitors are just dumped in a landfill.

We could be an advanced "green" country if we wanted to, but our current government does not have what it takes to do it.

[sarahw]

I have to agree with all the comments on here - its certainly not as green as people make out. If we had the population of the UK we'd have the same problems...maybe worse!

There are a LOT of large cars & SUV's in use and OLD large cars at that. Whilst Welly's transport system means that you could get by without a car in certain areas, Auckland's transport system needs some vast improvements & a car is really necessary (although there's a good ferry service if you live near the water). Lots of people live in rural areas which is a bit of a drive to get anywhere really.

The rubbish collection isn't as good as in many areas of the UK - i.e. garden waste is collected in the main rubbish - hmmm that's not going to get separated & composted is it?! Recycling is, however encouraged by the fact that you get pre-paid council rubbish sacks & if you want more or a wheelie bin you pay for your collections (whereas they'll take as much recycling as you can leave in front of your house away with them for free) & second hand goods have a very good market - I've found that people don't throw good things out - you usually have friends who need things & you can pass them on or put them on good old Trademe to find a new home.

One thing (maybe I should have put this in the things that shocked me about NZ thread) is that there is benzene (a carcienogenic) in the petrol - when we first arrived in Welly I was nearly knocked over by the fumes in the streets whenever a car drove by - I have my air on recycle within the car all the time since I hate the smell.

There's a pretty big green movement within NZ - environmental education is pretty good, especially in Enviroschools - which to my mind is really where the focus should be - on educating future generations - interesting to compare the behaviour of a child who has had an environmental programme in their school vs one who has not - I've had the good fortune in my previous job to witness this & its really great to see the way the kids are educating their parents on issues!!

Many people plant native plants to attract the birds to their gardens & lots of people are involved in community habitat restoration projects - some really amazing work going on to protect endangered species, but there are also problems - i.e. critically endangered species of dolphins being killed due to the govt. dragging their feet on the set net fishing issue, kiwi in danger from just about everything - especially those pesky possums!

Could go on all day but better stop before people's eyes glaze over!...

[willowshouse]

One of the worst offenders here are the supermarkets. Obviously not PaknSave where you don't get any bags unless you pay for them but at Foodtown and NewWorld the motto seems to be why use 1 bag when you can use 3. They do however sell the 'bag for life' type bag made out of non-woven material for about 80p/£1 which can be used time and time again ( as long as you remember to take it out of the car when you go shopping!

Dawn

[Howie]

I recently read a poll that said something like 1/3 of Kiwis think global warming is a myth.
I get funny looks when I suggest that people at work actually put their paper in the recycle bin instead of the rubbish bin.
My experience is not very green at all. And those I've met who are green tend to keep it pretty quiet.
Still a stunningly beautiful country (for now).

[gil]

They do however sell the 'bag for life' type bag made out of non-woven material for about 80p/£1 which can be used time and time again ( as long as you remember to take it out of the car when you go shopping!
Dawn

Oh goodness, I have heard it said that it takes between 7 and 21 repetitions of something to create a habit...well I haven't yet created the habit of taking those blasted bags with me! I usually remember when I'm parking at Pak n Save :(

As far as green-ness goes, there are some better practices here than in the area of Cardiff we used to live in: kerbside re-cycling, for example. Our youngest goes to an "enviro" school, so a lot of best practice is instilled early. I'm sure there's a long way to go, but if MAF are anything to go by, the intentions are well in place. Just need the wider-scale actions...
Gil

[thezorbster]

I read in The Sunday Times last week that NZ have adopted a policy of zero waste by 2020 with the goal that everything produced will be recycled or reused, with nothing incinerated or sent to landfill.

Sounds great but if it's anything like the UK it would mean a lot of thought going into packaging etc - the idea is to reuse things like fabric conditioner bottles - i.e take them to be refilled instead of just binning them. There is so much pre-packaged stuff in the UK, lots of it is just laziness on behalf of the consumer who can't be bothered to choose 4 apples of the shelf and put them in a bag, instead they choose pre-packaged apples which actually cost more and waste loads of packaging.

Sorry, having a consumerism rant today!

[Sam B]

Interesting, thanks. What about litter - my pet hate?

Gil, keep the carrier bags in the boot of your car all the time and one folded in your handbag - works for me...

[sarahw]

You don't tend to see too much litter in the city - I put that down to the council, but by the sea - that's what winds me up - I went on a beach clean up during sea week & found part of a computer keyboard, old boots & loads of empty alcohol bottles as well as the dreaded plastic bags which can kill many different animals. With some things you can understand them getting down to the beach - we have some high wind days & things get blown around but no excuses for finding computer keyboards on the beach!!

By the way anyone looking for re-usable shoping bags should check out the Warehouse - they sell bags that fit much more in them than the supermarket counterparts & are very strong & are made in NZ from plant fibre & can be chucked in the washing machine if they get grubby... with regards to repetition & remembering the bags - I now remember them every time but I found it really useful once I'd unpacked them to put them back in the boot of my car so that they'd be there the next time I went shopping.

[*Paul]

Here in Napier the city council workers clean the inner city streets with industrial vacuum cleaners every morning, so it generally looks good. However I've been surprised to occasionally see people chucking wrappers onto the ground without the slightest thought.

Our beach is also quite litered with rubbish - perhaps I'll see if I can find the rest of that computer...

[Ana&Steve]

Hey Paul,
while in Napier last March, we walked around the pretty little park near the info center. As we walked, I was appalled to see trash strewn all over, with a trash can not 5 feet away! We were across the way when we looked back and saw seagulls pulling trash out of the bin and flinging it about. It was a relief somehow, as it wasn't people after all. ;) (I now suspect the possums are responsible for the graffiti in Auckland)
Ana

[Jo_b]

SarahW - I do the regular beach clean up by my house in Island Bay too! I got so depressed filling 2 carrier bags of litter within 10 mins and covering a small area, but I've been heartened to have people come up to me and say "are you collecting rubbish - good on yer" and join in.

I emailed Welly council, as I think the recycling is a farse. Good intentions, but open topped boxes to put on the curb in a city as windy as this? How daft. I've seen it get blown straight onto the beach.

Anyway, I got some good responses and they seem aware of the problem. But, they did suggest putting recycling out in supermarket carrier bags, but failed to addressed the point that then they landfill the bags.

I'm slowly getting known at the local New World for being the one that refuses carrier bags and turns up with a big collection of Waitrose reusable box bags! and I have seen flyers around saying "get a good new years resolution - refuse plastic bags" so that's positive.

I've found commonsense organics has a great range of eco-cleaning products.

All in all, they are nowhere near as green as I hoped, but the message is sinking in.

[*Paul]

Ana, that park is nomally kept very clean by city employees, however is often the victim of late-night vandalism, as is the other nearby park you may have seen with the waterfall.

Here (http://stuff.co.nz/3954131a6012.html) is a relevant recent news article about Flaxmere, a suburb of Hastings.

[Ana&Steve]

Ana, that park is nomally kept very clean by city employees, however is often the victim of late-night vandalism, as is the other nearby park you may have seen with the waterfall.

Here (http://stuff.co.nz/3954131a6012.html) is a relevant recent news article about Flaxmere, a suburb of Hastings.
*SIGH* It's been said so many times before, people are people where ever you go...I have always abhorred littering, and I just can't imagine wanting to trash such a beautiful country as NZ:no
Ana

[Sam B]

Well I'm here now, and I agree with the general consensus that it's not as green as I hoped. I don't know many people, but I haven't met anyone who seems particularly bothered about the environment yet, except when we went camping in the Coromandel, people seemed different there.

The supermarkets do not seem to promote reusable bags much, particularly New World, and everywhere seems surprised if we produce our own bags. In Cambridge there is roadside collection of cardboard and paper, but from next month they are going to be doing everything - so a bit behind the UK there. However, they are going to collect all grades of plastic, which is great.

There is much less litter, but there is litter in surprising places, like a whole heap of beer bottles and cans in a pile on a deserted beach on the Coromandel, and in one parking spot by a river off a main road, I spotted loo roll dotted around everywhere in the surrounding bush, and had to hastlily call back my bare footed children - yuk!

The kids' school seems to be v keen to promote care of the environment, and it is the theme for this year.

We are in a rental house so for the first time we have no compost heap. We have filled bags up with compost stuff as we cannot get used to just throwing it away and now the kitchen is full of fruit flies! May have to buy a wormery or something?

It's a beautiful country though, although I hate the sprawling industrial/commercial zones that surround every town and city and seem to go on and on.

[Diny]

If there's one thing that just about flips my lid it's glass on the beaches. I've travelled from Bluff up to Rianga in the past and don't recall one single beach, however remote, where we didn't find bottles - both broken and intact.

It's mindless and a hangable offence !!!!!! (OK - a tad OTT maybe but it does make my blood boil).

As for the question 'NZ - How green is it' I can offer a simple 2 word answer:

NOT VERY.

Diny

[Nathan]

As I understand, or more precisely, was told by an Omaru native, the little blue penguins for which the town is reknown, are still there due to the efforts of a 'crazy woman.' It was explained to me that this woman set upon a mission to rescue every penguin she could which was hit by a car, mauled by a dog, etc.... And she kept harping on the town council and everyone she met that 'we have to protect the penguins.'
At some point she got the school kids involved in building shelters for the little blue penguins. The school kids started insisting that their parents had to help save the little blue penguins. And now NZ has a famous colony of little blue penguins in Omaru. And the community is very suppportive. And they understand the economic impact of their care of the environment...at least as far as the penguins are concern.
That's what my friend in Omaru taught me. Later, on the long flight back from NZ to LA, I sat next to the head of DoC. We talked about the penguins. He told me there's another colony up the coast a bit that they preserve, untouched, to compare the effects of the community involvement on the penguins. As far as they could tell (several years ago) there was no detrimental effect.
Anyway, my point is that once you get children involved in a good community project, it goes forward. Kids don't back down when they know they're right... and their parents generally give in and do the right thing. So it's a really great and positive thing to read that the schools are teaching environmental responsibilty to children.
The children will win!! GO KIDS!! :)
Or in the words of CSN&Y "Teach your parents well...."

[Carol]

So it's a really great and positive thing to read that the schools are teaching environmental responsibilty to children.
The children will win!! GO KIDS!! :)
Or in the words of CSN&Y "Teach your parents well...."



hear hear!
:nice1

[Super_BQ]

One of the worst offenders here are the supermarkets. Obviously not PaknSave where you don't get any bags unless you pay for them but at Foodtown and NewWorld the motto seems to be why use 1 bag when you can use 3. They do however sell the 'bag for life' type bag made out of non-woven material for about 80p/£1 which can be used time and time again ( as long as you remember to take it out of the car when you go shopping!

Dawn

The recyclable bag is nice but it can be done better. In Canada's "Superstore" grocery mart, people use plastic bins that you bring from your kitchen to the grocery store and back. Quite often recyclable bags just don't hold enough items. Where as 2 or 3 of these bins fit nicely in the shopping cart - easy to carry - and never worry about shopping bags. As an incentive to get people to go green, the store chain charges 5 cents per plastic bag you need. If you bring your own plastic bags, it's ok.

BQ

[stu70]

Given the "lord of the rings" type image, people sometimes "assume" NZ is going to be green like Ireland. Economic realities make it harder for places to be really green.

One thing I have noticed in pics from NZ(that various folks on this forum have posted) is the lack of forests on hills and in the valleys. Clear cutting comes to mind. It could be that we are used to seeing a lot of dense forests that are still left alone here mainly due to pressure from the population. There is a strong belief in going green and the next election (in a few weeks to a few months)will be fought mainly on environmental issues (how to make Canada an economically sustainable green nation in the 21st century). Regards

[oldtimbo]

I am a little surprised that no mention has been made of the widespread use of 1080 in the name of pest control.
As I understand it, 1080 is banned in every other country worldwide, but that doesnt stop good old DOC from dropping it all over the forests here to try and bring the possum population to it`s knees.
I have heard conflicting reports from a wide range of sources as to the effectiveness of this product. All I can say for certain, and this is based on personal experience, is that very shortly after a 1080 drop, the bird life in the Coromandel forests go VERY quiet.
Perhaps some of you may have noticed the warning signs posted on fences around the area, telling visitors to keep children and dogs under strict supervision in areas that have been treated. :uhoh

[stu70]

I am a little surprised that no mention has been made of the widespread use of 1080 in the name of pest control.
As I understand it, 1080 is banned in every other country worldwide, but that doesnt stop good old DOC from dropping it all over the forests here to try and bring the possum population to it`s knees.
I have heard conflicting reports from a wide range of sources as to the effectiveness of this product. All I can say for certain, and this is based on personal experience, is that very shortly after a 1080 drop, the bird life in the Coromandel forests go VERY quiet.
Perhaps some of you may have noticed the warning signs posted on fences around the area, telling visitors to keep children and dogs under strict supervision in areas that have been treated. :uhoh

sweet.... and they make you put your pets through all kinds of unnecessary tests so that they won't bring any unwanted "bugs" in?? I wonder if those are any more harmful than this blanket use of 1080 for the environment!! But then you can not blame the govt. people who work there are not usually the brightest lights on the block

[Ana&Steve]

oldtimbo, your post got me thinking....in the US we still have a rabies problem and to help this they medicate raccoons by littering forests with rabies vaccinations in the form of yummy (to raccoons) cube treats. I wonder if the same could be done to possums but with a sterilizing agent. Possum birth control from the heavens:D Also, this makes me wonder, in NZ, if you have a question, comment, or suggestion for the government, who do you contact and would anyone really listen?
Ana

[Trigirl]

Ana

The government may already be one step ahead of you there (despite being not the brightest lights on the block ;))

from the DOC report on use of 1080
Methods of interfering with possum fertility are also being actively researched. Fertility control would suppress the recovery of possum numbers after conventional control, and offers potential advantages of humaneness, specificity and a reduction in the use of toxins. Two approaches are being investigated. One aims to block production of the hormones essential for breeding (and does not involve genetic modification). The other uses genetic modification technologies to stop breeding, by stimulating the possum’s own immune system to interfere with reproduction during the stages of egg-to-embryo development. Research on delivery of fertility control is exploring both bait-delivered systems (which may not contain living, genetically modified material) and the use of a genetically modified possum-specific parasite, which would transmit naturally from possum to possum.

Significant technical problems and regulatory issues remain to be overcome in each approach. Bait-delivered products may be available by 2006-2008, with transmissible systems, if approved, available by 2010-2012.

The use of bio-controls is, understandably, the subject of considerable public debate. Surveys of public attitudes have clearly shown support for fertility control for possum management, but people are more cautious when delivery involves the use of genetic modification. A recent report by the PCE “Caught in the Headlights: New Zealanders’ Reflections on Possums, Control Options and Genetic Engineering"52 canvasses the range of views of New Zealanders on this issue.

the whole report for anyone who is actually interested in the facts is here
http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/MultiPageDocumentTOC.aspx?id=39912

If you want to contact them to ask them anything about it - their contact details are at the bottom. my exerience of contacting govt agencies over here (i haven't contacted DOC but have spoken to the council and the IRD etc) is that they are pretty easy to deal with and more responsive than UK agencies. i don't know what US ones are like so can't comment

[Ana&Steve]

Thanks for that, Trigirl!i don't know what US ones are like so can't commentYa well, I think it was Diny who recently reminded us, If you don't have anything nice to say.....;)

Well, I'm happy to read that they are hoping to move to other methods than blanketing wildlife with poison:eek: I hope they start it up soon!
Ana

[stu70]

Well, I'm happy to read that they are hoping to move to other methods than blanketing wildlife with poison:eek: I hope they start it up soon!
Ana

Never too late as they say

[Nathan]

Clark: Biofuels coming to a petrol station near you

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10423772

On the surfce it seems a little timid to me, but I'm impatient!

[thepiesleys]

I was fighting a losing battle in my home town to get a plastic collection arranged and to up the twice weekly paper/glass collection. On arrival here I was well happy with the weekly collection and plastic...yay.

I aim to put a max of two bags out of 'other' rubbish, for a family of five that is tricky but i have achieved it every week.

They will also take huge bin bags full of weeds, which is nice. Wonder what they do with it though?

The area I live in is imaculate, hardly a trace of litter, nothing compared to the litter strewn streets of Halesowen were I used to live.

Two points:

1) Auckland city council will take all grades of plastic now, marg tubs, chinese take away trays, your favourite dip pots etc etc.

2) Why does no one compost? You have to cut the lawns so much and grass cuttings make an ideal base along with raw vege peelings, eggboxes, fruit peel, newspaper and egg shells. My compost heep is coming along nicely and next summer my garden will be the dogs.

dan

[*Paul]

They have been talking about it for years. Now that it's here all I can say is the labour government's new biofuel target/mandate of 3.4% by 2012 is just pathetic. "Weak as water" as Mrs. Slocombe would say.

[barryp]

I agree - weak with no real justification.

We're still very new arrivals, but already I have a reason to get political here: the poor state of automobile emissions controls. Whether in a car or on foot, every day I get several facefuls of nauseating emissions from other cars, and it makes me madder every day. (I don't mean diesel dust - we're talking smelly, oily clouds out the tailpipe.) Ignore the larger questions of environmental impact - what about the microenvironmental impacts on human health? Even a very modest amount of effort during bi-annual WOF testing would pay off hugely.

One could argue that stopping the cheap Japanese imports (typically made available because they fail stringent Japanese tailpipe testing) would be the best solution long-term. I'd argue that the 50% solution would be mandatory servicing for maybe 4% of cars that are the grossest violators.

(Yeah, one reason the EU is far superior to NZ. Even Texas is far superior on this count, which should be a source of profound shame....)

[Rizak]

Clark: Biofuels coming to a petrol station near you

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10423772

On the surface it seems a little timid to me, but I'm impatient!

There are problems with bofuels.

Example:
1) A lot of companies in Canada already use about 15% Ethanol in their gas. There are some stations where you can get pure Ethanol if you want it.
2) The owner's manual for my Saturn says not to use Ethanol because it will rot out the engine parts!

Moral: check your manual.

[katandbob]

The rubbish collection isn't as good as in many areas of the UK - i.e. garden waste is collected in the main rubbish - hmmm that's not going to get separated & composted is it?! Recycling is, however encouraged by the fact that you get pre-paid council rubbish sacks & if you want more or a wheelie bin you pay for your collections (whereas they'll take as much recycling as you can leave in front of your house away with them for free) & second hand goods have a very good market - I've found that people don't throw good things out - you usually have friends who need things & you can pass them on or put them on good old Trademe to find a new home.


Could go on all day but better stop before people's eyes glaze over!...

Invercargill council do not take green rubbish - infact if they see a branch or greenery sticking out the bin then they don't take it, they are now also saying they will not empty any bin that does not have a closed lid (this is because one windy day there was tons of rubbish blowing around the streets)

They have a kerbside recycle collection - open bins and Yes if you don't put it in plastic bags then it flys everywhere - but they bale up the bags that are used.

They also collect the Baylage Plastic (green stuff around the large things you see stacked in paddocks and yards around the countryside)

I get annoyed that they only take bottles with 1 & 2 and that they don't take the trays from pies etc (but I am not buying pies that much now)

But its a case of that they can't ship the other stuff off to their buyer in China.

I try recycling as much as possible - and now theres only 3 of us we hardly ever fill the bin up.

Being in the countryside we don't get a kerbside collection for recycle stuff - we have a garage full - until I remember to go to the drop off station

:laugh

Must go soon, beer bottles everywhere:p

oh and all litter is collected around the parks by the gardners and we get call outs to collect fly tipping....So I know that Kiwis are no cleaner than the UK - It's just that the Councils pay for someone to pick it up! (I too had a false illusion that kiwis wern't litter bugs!

The UK used to do this in the 70's early 80's (I remember seeing the guy with his yellow barrow and pick up stick walking around the main roads in my home town - but he wasnt replaced when he retired):(

MacDonalds/KFC & BKing have a lot to answer for too... IF they didn't do Take out/ Drive through - Just think of the rubbish that would stop littering the streets!

oh well rant over - better get to work and see how many vandalism repairs we've had requested after the weekend - It shot up when the lighter nights & school holidays started:roll

Kat

[Rizak]

It'll be nice to be able to get away from one problem.

We live in Ontario, right across the river from Quebec. While our Ottawa is pretty good with regard to recycling, out sister city across the river (Gatineau) has different regulations. For example, anyone can take their aluminum cans into a depot there for cash. This means that we get people here picking through our recycling to get the cans so they can take them across the river to get the money. They're stealing Ottawa revenue.

Our recycling truck comes by early in the morning and I can't guarantee that I'll be out the door before they come by, so I tend to to put the garbage and recycling out the night before. All but the cans. I will take them out in the morning, but if I miss the truck, I'll carry them to work with me. I've even put a sign on our blue box that says, "NOTHING HERE FOR CAN SCAMMERS!"

I figure that this won't be a problem after I move.

[Super_BQ]

Rizak may know this. I grew up in BC (western most province of Canada) and the petro chain station "Mohawk" has always used ethanal blend gasoline in their fuel for well.. 20+ years or so.

Though not a problem for NZ climate, ethanal has a lower freezing point. I remember the time my father filled up a tank at Mohawk during a rather cold day and the fuel line in his van froze that night as he was stranded on the highway. Actually the cause of the lower freezing point ethanol is not in the fuel itself. The problem lies in the fact that it ATTRACTS moisture - WATER!! and we all know water freezes below 0°C

The longer this grade of fuel sits, the more likely it will accumulate water and that means less fuel economy to your vehicle. Yep don't bet on getting better mileage using this fuel - some of my friends have claimed to burn 20% more of this fuel for the same distance.

The major problem with use of ethanol has nothing to do with the environment. The biggest problem is due to the fact that ethanol comes from the same food chain (corn and surgar canes) that we eat. There will be serious consequences if ethanol directly competes with the food we consume.

Currently our main fuel supply is from crude oil and that does not compete with human food consumption in any way. But if the same food we eat becomes a main source of energy for our transportation, then you'll find that food prices will skyrocket. Sugar cane and corn plantations are no longer being used to make sugar ; which is the primary ingredient on almost every processed food you buy (from Coca-cola to cereal to baking cookies and your momma's favorite cake). Instead, farmers will grow for the more profitable production of ethanol and people will not understand the higher food prices.

Of interest, which is better? To support middle eastern countries by using their crude oil or support developing nations that grow sugar cane & corn?

BQ

[Nathan]

Ethanol feedstack need not be food crops....such as wheat, sugar, or corn. The cellulosic processes use fiber as a source of complex carbohydarates (polysacchrides) which are enzymatically reduced to simple sugars and then fermented to ethanol.
These processes use fiberous plant sources such as switchgrass or residuals from corn or sugar production. They do not compete with the food chain.
Further, they are far more efficient process for reducing CO2 emissions. Food crop ethanol sources net about 20-30 % reduction in greenhouse gas emission, because, primarily, of the large amout of fuel requireed to grow and harvest the crop, and then to convert the product to ethanol. Cellulsic ethanol currently results in a net reduction of about 80% net carbon emission compared to burning fossil fuels because the crops are either by-products of food production or because they are lower fuel intensity crops to harvest. The conversion process is also uses less oil. Celllulosic ethanol is still a rather expensive (in dollar investment terms) cost process. It will require (and is recieving) substantial research to make it a financially going process. But it sure looks like it will work.

As for water in ethanol.... I used to drive a '50 Chevy when I lived in Iowa...and had to burn 15% ethanol fuel (corn is a main crop in Iowa). The sedimant trap on my fuel line was right next to the engine block, and because ethanol has a significantly lower boiling than gasoline, I had to deal with vapor locks on a regular basis in the summer. I also had to stop and...well the car stopped whether I wanted to or not....and drain the water out of the sediment trap before I could continue down the road.
Ok...long boring story if you're not into antique cars!!!
And, yes, it can cause fuel line freezeup if you aren't careful!

[Avalon]

Reusable Bags for shopping.

http://www.lavender-impressions.co.nz/

These people are importing large reusable shopping bags (though theres no mention on the website).

They are canvas bags with plastic tops, and are designed to sit in a trolly and make yur shopping easier as well as save the planet:clap

These are great particularly for Pak n Save - where you if you use the scanners - you dont even have to remove the items in order to pay.

Not the cheapest at $30 for 3 bags - but they ARE big bags.

[Debbie]

I got my SIL to bring over a few of those big blue IKEA bags when she visited. They stay in the car so I always have them handy and two fit in Pak and save trolly just right. Makes Pak& Save a lot easier although the check out lady still finds it odd that I like to pack my own trolly.
Debbie

[veronica]

nope they have can scammers here too.

[Rizak]

I just want everyone to do the right thing. Is that so wrong?

[Super_BQ]

They are canvas bags with plastic tops, and are designed to sit in a trolly and make yur shopping easier as well as save the planet

IMO, I still think a hard plastic bin is far more convenient then using any form of a 'bag'. Plastic bags don't carry well with you have multiple glass containers in it. Items tend to roll around in the bag while in the shopping cart and in the back seat of the car. Whereas in a open bin, the items are far easier to take in - scan by the cashier - and back to the same bin. Loaded into the car and carried into the kitchen and straight to the storage shelf or fridge. Taking items in and out of any plastic or clothed bag is a "2 hand job" :O

BQ

[Super_BQ]

These processes use fiberous plant sources such as switchgrass or residuals from corn or sugar production. They do not compete with the food chain.

I can't see how the leftovers can be an efficient source of producing ethanol. If so, then the same analogy of forrest "clear cutting" in harvesting lumber can be applied - lack of nutrients that goes back to the ground.

Perhaps we should question why corn has been the main source of ethanol in the USA when countries in S. America are based on the sugar cane? You know that the ethanol process from sugar cane is at least 6 times more efficient than corn? I'm pretty sure the corn lobbyists in the US have got it their way.

Food crop ethanol sources net about 20-30 % reduction in greenhouse gas emission, because, primarily, of the large amout of fuel requireed to grow and harvest the crop, and then to convert the product to ethanol.

Doesn't appear that corn is that expensive to buy at the grocery mart. Perhap the better alternative to harvesting corn is by the manual hand picked way? Have any links online to back these 20-30% reduction or this 80% reduction in carbon emissions?

I'm a new owner of a 1964 Morris Mini Cooper, there's no way i'm going to use ethanol because at the end of the day, this "Global Warming" is still only a partial acceleration of the inevitable.

BQ

[Rizak]

IMO, I still think a hard plastic bin is far more convenient then using any form of a 'bag'. Plastic bags don't carry well with you have multiple glass containers in it. Items tend to roll around in the bag while in the shopping cart and in the back seat of the car. Whereas in a open bin, the items are far easier to take in - scan by the cashier - and back to the same bin. Loaded into the car and carried into the kitchen and straight to the storage shelf or fridge. Taking items in and out of any plastic or clothed bag is a "2 hand job" :O

BQ

Hmmmmm. Sounds like there might be a bit of a market in custom-built wood cartons that fit in regular-sized shopping carts (with handles cut out of course) that you can put in your car ...

I think it's time to fire up the old CAD program and get to work ...

Can anyone get me some dimensions of the inside of a cart? I might be able to have the kinks worked out by the time I arrive. Oh, making sure that this size would also fit in your car isn't a bad idea either. :p

[Oregonkiwi]

Perhaps we should question why corn has been the main source of ethanol in the USA when countries in S. America are based on the sugar cane?
Perhaps it has something to do with corn growing much better than sugar cane in the US? I don't recall ever seeing rolling fields of sugar cane in Iowa....

[Nathan]

I can't see ...
BQ

For references Google 'cellulosic ethanol'. Wikipedia has a good, basic explanation of what it is and is reasonably balanced. Further down the list of hits you find more detailed explanations of the process. Becareful of interpretation; some of the sites are out-of-date, i.e., more than 3 years old, and several have agendas.

The main point of cellulosic ethanol is that it splits cellulose and hemicellulose into simple sugars...like are in corn and cane sugar...then the process is the same. Enzymatic reduction of the complex carbohydrates (cellulose) is the lower energy approach but is also the less developed approach. ...and, yes, you could use about any source for the cellulose...trees for example. ...and, yes, it would be a poor farming technique to remove all of the organic matter...but it's way better to harvest it and convert it to ethanol than to burn it, which is an all too common practice in much of the world.

OK, I'm done with chemistry for a while. I do too much of that as it is!! :) I really think it's important to read and understand this issue. There are way too many very loud voicves on either side of the fence who are disseminating wildly biased information. It makes it hard to sort out.

And don't forget that ethanol is good to drink and kills sickly brain cells, thus making room for healthy ones to grow! :P (hiccup)