[mclarity]

I wrote the following to friends in August last year. We left NZ in September and I am currently working in the Netherlands again.

Hi guys,
Sorry to say that we are not doing so great in terms of our move to NZ. It is the distance and isolation that is getting to us the most, especially my wife. It wouldn't be so bad if we knew that we could, in the future, afford to travel around and get to see our family in South Africa and friends abroad on a semi-regular basis but the income/travel cost ratio here is not favourable at all for us (and Paul earns an above average salary here by all accounts). The effect of the cost of living versus earning power problem is really not something one can get a grip on prior to coming over. I think moving out with the travel issue in mind is okay if one is prepared to forfeit family visits or one has enough family over here already. Having a pot of savings prior to coming out can of course also help.

Zelda is battling to get a decent teaching job here (started applying for jobs in January) and gets the response of "no New Zealand experience" even though she has had her qualifications assessed by NZQA and is registered to teach here. This, coupled with what we perceive as not such great weather (Wellington), lack of insulation in the houses and the relatively high cost of living does not make it Paradise Found for us personally. We feel quite trapped here and see no real financial soundness in the medium to long term, especially if we want to buy a house.

I guess it's all about compromises and the price one is prepared to pay. New Zealand is a stunningly beautiful country and we have made some very good friends here. We are, in many ways, very sad that we are leaving but the price for us is just too high. I have accepted a very good job offer back in the Netherlands. The Netherlands has its problems but it certainly is central and that coupled with the better earning power and the power of the Euro makes travelling quite easy. Time away from a place can also put perceived problems in perspective and we will go back knowing that we will handle the problems differently and focus on the good stuff.

Why were we looking to emigrate from Europe originally? Well, eight years ago we had moved from South Africa to work and travel in Europe. After these eight years, we were looking to recapture some of the lifestyle that we had experienced growing up in South Africa (minus the crime) and also wanted an English speaking country. Going back to South Africa was not an option for us due largely to the crime situation, cost of housing and poor job prospects. We considered Australia but eventually focused on New Zealand. The immigration process, right up to receiving permanent residence and getting a job offer, went very smoothly and was handled very professionally.

In retrospect (and hindsight is always easy!) I think we could have pushed more for Australia which, by all accounts, could come closer to the lifestyle we had experienced in South Africa. But our fundamental problem in terms of isolation from family and friends would probably largely remain. Also, we are both just so exhausted from the process of going through the whole immigration thing that the thought of yet another move to the unknown and going through yet another residency permit process is daunting.

Maybe we will decide to return to NZ after another reality check in Europe, time will tell...!

[pieeater]

Thanks for your post.It will ring a lot of bells with many migrants I am quite sure of that!.Your experiences will only make you stronger.Good luck.

[StevieD]

Good post - good luck to you all.

[Kim39]

Well Mclarity, good luck with it all back in Europe and the Netherlands. Excuse the pun, but there was plenty of clarity in your thread to realise the reason for getting out.

Kim

[stu70]

Great post. Makes you look at the "big picture" without going through what you had to. Thank you for posting.

[Diny]

Great post - I totally understand your feelings. All the best for the future.

Diny

[Anita & Marco]

Hi Mclarity,
Thanks for this post - good information for a lot of people.
And how do you regard life in The Netherlands at the moment in comparison with NZ? Apart from the money, of course.

Cheers,
Anita
(originally from The Netherlands)

[Nienke]

Good post, I understand how you feel and why you're leaving. Wishing you all the best in Holland, and also would like to know how you get on there! (I'm also from The Netherlands).

[Tia Maria]

As others have said this post is partticularly good as you do highlight issues that the majority of migrants will have to deal with.

Although like you stated many will have to actually experience it to truly understand issues like:

1) Cost of living versus earning power problem
2) Not such great weather (Wellington)
3) Lack of insulation in the houses (with lack of funds to address the problem)
4) Isolation from family and friends
5) Time away from a place can also put perceived problems in perspective and we will go back knowing that we will handle the problems differently and focus on the good stuff.

I know I read posts such as these before I left but I still didn't really appreciate what it meant. But it did mean that when I got here I knew I hadn't somehow done something wrong or created these problems, but that it is an ineveitable part of emigrating - with different countries raising differents issues.

I think you are right to 'catch your breath' and to return to a familiar place. And you are also equally right to know that your options are still open if that doesn't work.

Out of interest how long were you in NZ for? And did you know relatively early that it wasn't for you, or did you have a honeymoon period?

Also of the 5 issues above, do you feel that a couple are particularly important? For instance if money wasn't an issue and some family members came out to join you or to visit for 3 months at a time, could you deal with weather/houses/missing familiar friends and places?

Cheers

Tia

[spudulike]

Excellent post - You have highlighted so many points which will ring true with many migrants. Like Tia, I read similar posts before coming but agree you have to experience these problems to know the true impact (and this will vary from person to person of course).

Also, no matter how many posts you read before coming you tend to home in on the ones that reinforce your mindset - which is perhaps what I'm doing with this particular post??? We are returning to the UK in May for most of the reasons you have stated and although most migrants settle happily there are many that feel the same as us!

Good luck with your life in the Netherlands, I hope feel able to settle and appreciate your surroundings now you're back home!

L :)

[mclarity]

Hi Mclarity,
Thanks for this post - good information for a lot of people.
And how do you regard life in The Netherlands at the moment in comparison with NZ? Apart from the money, of course.

For me personally, I can never see the Netherlands as being truly home. It will always be a compromise. It is a very different culture from my own and after eight years here I am still not always used to the differences. Communication on many levels is more difficult. Environmentally, in terms of natural beauty, certainly not as stunning as a South Africa or a New Zealand. It is a very homogenous society and environment which creates a level of blandness which is sometimes quite depressing.

If I compare my daily life between NL and NZ then NZ was easier and more pleasant on a number of levels.

However, looking at the bigger picture, in the Netherlands we can:

- have access to our friends and family in South Africa and the rest of the world (and this is our fundamental reason for returning)
- afford to buy a decently built home (albeit not free standing) and not have such a high percentage of monthly salary being taken up in a mortgage
- feel as if we could actually save in the longer term and not always have to worry at the end of every month

We do lead good lives here and we have promised ourselves to make full use of the positives that do exist here in terms of travel and family/friends visits.

Regards.

[Anita & Marco]

Thanks for that update.
Doesn't sound very 'strange' to me - being a Dutchie here in NZ trying to get used to the different culture, in which I will never succeed, I guess.
You might understand what I mean.
However, I do not think Dutch society is homogenous - not at all. In my opinion NZ societey is far more homogenous, but maybe you compare it with SA.

And yes, people in NZ are far more friendly than in the Netherlands, but this is part of my problem at the same time.
It is great to read how different people cope differently with similar 'problems'.

All the best in The Netherlands, and hopefully you will get a bit of a feeling 'at home'!!

Cheers,
Anita

[G&K]

Thanks for this post - it reads very true and rings a lot of similar bells... !

We never intended on staying for good but are returning to the U.K for all the reasons you listed - being closer to friends and family the number 1 priority though. We've had a great time here in Wellington - it's been like a 21 month holiday, which can't be bad !!! Got lots to see and do before we head back in May, which we are really looking forward to...

Good luck in settling into life in Holland and feels free to pitch with any recomendations / tips with movers etc going back the "other" way.

Life is for living - so you might as well live as much as you can eh !

[Anita & Marco]

We are returning to the UK in May for most of the reasons you have stated and although most migrants settle happily there are many that feel the same as us!

L :)

Hi,
Didn't you go to Christchurch for a period first? To give that a try?

Cheers,
Anita

[spudulike]

Hi,
Didn't you go to Christchurch for a period first? To give that a try?

Cheers,
Anita

Hi Anita,

We did seriously consider Christchurch and my husband was offered numerous jobs down there. We looked into the finances of moving down there which included shipping furniture (almost as much as the move here from the UK :uhoh) and the ' lag' phase of building up a patient list and finding housing etc etc. Anyway, we would have spent at least $10, 000 to make the move and when we looked at the wages on offer we wouldn't have been any better off financially than we are here in Wellington.

We had to make a decision based on providing a secure future for our children and to be honest, at this point in our lives we will be able to do that better in the UK. If we stay in NZ then we really cannot save for them to go to university, we can't afford to save for pensions etc and if we stayed for a few more years we wouldn't stand a chance of regaining a place on the UK housing market.

We called NZIS before we came to a firm decision and found out for certain what was necessary to gain our IRRV, and to do that we need to be here until the end of April. We will be here until mid-May and who knows, one day in the future we may return. For now, we're enjoying every minute we have left in NZ and looking forward to returning to the UK and all it has to offer. We're never left the UK because we disliked it but wanted to explore the possibility of living in NZ - it hasn't worked for now but at least we won't have those regrets and we're really pleased we came and tried.

L :)

[mclarity]

Out of interest how long were you in NZ for? And did you know relatively early that it wasn't for you, or did you have a honeymoon period?

Also of the 5 issues above, do you feel that a couple are particularly important? For instance if money wasn't an issue and some family members came out to join you or to visit for 3 months at a time, could you deal with weather/houses/missing familiar friends and places?

We were in NZ for 8 months. I started work a few days after arriving so there was no big honeymoon period really. The only honeymoon was the initial weeks of good weather before the weather turned to custard. I think that after about four months I started putting out feelers for possible jobs back in Europe. It was never a case of NZ not being for me in terms of the local folks and the surroundings (although the weather did limit our outdoor life more than I liked). I enjoyed my daily life in NZ and I did not miss the familiar that much. This is largely due to the fact that we had moved countries before and there is a lot more familiarity between South Africa and New Zealand compared to the Netherlands, so it was almost like returning to some familiarity when we moved to NZ. If that makes any sense!

The money was an issue in terms of needing enough to be able to save for trips to see family and friends. In Europe, we had become used to the idea that such visits were a possibility, if not every year then certainly every second or third year. We are not huge spenders on consumer goods and extras so that was not a problem. We did feel quite vulnerable financially though. One big unforeseen expense could have rocked the boat. Maybe over time this feeling would have dimmed.

This is where those extra brought along savings could help, especially with down payments on mortgages. We had brought enough to set up with in terms of the required deposits, buying a car and settling in. After that it was a case of living on the salary alone. With that came the realisation that saving for an overseas visit would take a lot longer than what we were used to. The effect of that realisation is not something one can prepare in advance for.

If some family members such as grandparents had been in New Zealand then we might very well have stayed. If we had brought a bigger pot of money then we might also have stayed. My feeling after several months in New Zealand though was that in terms of earnings and lifestyle, Australia would have, in the longer term, become a more interesting proposition. Who knows what the future holds….

[jailhouse]

mclarity,
thank you for sharing your experience with us all. I am in the process of applying for NZ residencee and find your comments very sobering.

From a personal point of view i find it sad to see people returning to their original departure points, but on the other hand, find it encouraging to see that no one is leaving due to the people themselves in NZ, but purely for personal or financial reasons.

I hope you quickly settle back into the flow of things when you go back to the Netherlands, and would like to say thank you, once again, for your candid post.

jh

[gingerstacey]

I have just arrived in NZ and your e-mail rings true in many ways. thank you for your insight.
stacey

[borea]

mclarity,
thank you for sharing your experience with us all. I am in the process of applying for NZ residencee and find your comments very sobering.

From a personal point of view i find it sad to see people returning to their original departure points, but on the other hand, find it encouraging to see that no one is leaving due to the people themselves in NZ, but purely for personal or financial reasons.

...

Well, Jailhouse, I think it's fair to say that I am leaving because of the people. All of McLarity's reasons all rang true for me too, but I think it's really the people that are making me want to leave. My point of view will probably be a bit controversial, but I think that it is valid to make generalizations about national character as long as one acknowledges the limitations of such generalizations.

First, I was shocked to find that, at least in the Auckland area, people are quite unfriendly. Sure, they're amazingly friendly on the superficial level in shops and meeting on the street, but they seem totally uninterested in actually being your friend. I've lived here for nearly a year and I have one close Kiwi friend (and I am an outgoing, friendly person). Most but not all of the expats that I've talked to have agreed with this observation and find that most of their friends are other expats.

Second, there's a hard to define attitude that one doesn't actually need to be taught anything, you can just muck in and figure it out. The result is shocking levels of workmanship. For example, everybody saves a buck by fixing their own house so that all the houses seem to be just about ready to fall down. Another example is that the rest of the world has discovered insulation and double glazed windows, but New Zealanders have to figure everything out for themselves so they think the state of the art is to put a fan in the attic to blow the warm air back down. The rest of the world insulates the ceiling so that the warm air doesn't get up there in the first place.

I'm having trouble really describing this attitude, but it's an important one for me because I work as a design engineer in the aircraft industry (before you read any further, I know a lot of Air NZ people and they do an exemplary job of maintaining their aircraft). In the general aviation side of aviation where I work, I've seen countless examples of poor practices and workmanship. I think they can all be boiled down to the attitude that nobody needs to teach me, I can figure it out for myself and "she'll be right." Any suggestion that it won't be right and that they might want to learn something from an expert is scoffed at. The result is a tendency to flout rules and regulations and produce shoddy products with a bizarre confidence that what they're showing "Kiwi innovation" by doing so.

The result of all this is a high level of amateurism that is often annoying and sometimes dangerous. I'm a junior engineer, so I need to trust my mentors. I can only be as good as my teachers. Instead, I literally lie awake at night and worry that somebody might die as a result of the work I've done. And I work for some of the best and most respected engineers in the country. I can't work in that environment, and so I'm leaving to find work elsewhere.

[Carol]

A great post borea
And yes - after 11 years - all my long term mates are ex-pats too.

I've just accepted it now - despite as you say - also being a very friendly and outgoing person.

I reckon it's their loss.
;)
Amateurism IS alive and kicking.
We are busy "doing up" our rental - I curse the fact that no-one seems to know how to plaster walls here every time I spend 3 hours steaming backing paper off gib board.

I'm actually sick of waiting for people to get back to me with quotes for carpet....

It's a funny old world.

Still love it though!

[leigh31]

I have been living in New Zealand for almost a year now, and I have to say how much of Boorea's post rang true for me, too. I had lived in England a few years back, and had a completely different experience to the one I'm having now (in NZ).

I currently live in Auckland, and I also find that people are not that friendly. The people I've connected with most are other ex-pats. In my industry, I find that many people are overly loud (and people say Americans are loud, they haven't met my kiwi co-workers!) and unprofessional. And don't even get me started on the overt racism. I know it exists everywhere in the world, but have never heard it as openly accepted as it is here.

Although my partner & I could both stay indefinitely through being sponsored at our jobs, we decided that we will head back this July (but first we will travel for a few months). New Zealand is an absolutely BEAUTIFUL country, but it's just not for us in the long term.

[stu70]

I'm having trouble really describing this attitude, but it's an important one for me because I work as a design engineer in the aircraft industry (before you read any further, I know a lot of Air NZ people and they do an exemplary job of maintaining their aircraft). In the general aviation side of aviation where I work, I've seen countless examples of poor practices and workmanship. I think they can all be boiled down to the attitude that nobody needs to teach me, I can figure it out for myself and "she'll be right." Any suggestion that it won't be right and that they might want to learn something from an expert is scoffed at. The result is a tendency to flout rules and regulations and produce shoddy products with a bizarre confidence that what they're showing "Kiwi innovation" by doing so.

The result of all this is a high level of amateurism that is often annoying and sometimes dangerous. I'm a junior engineer, so I need to trust my mentors. I can only be as good as my teachers. Instead, I literally lie awake at night and worry that somebody might die as a result of the work I've done. And I work for some of the best and most respected engineers in the country. I can't work in that environment, and so I'm leaving to find work elsewhere.

I am sorry to hear your story but very thankful at the same time for your post. I am an Engineer but have since moved to systems and have been at it for a decade now. I admire you for being conscientious. It takes guts to walk away from a job on moral grounds ("worry that somebody might die as a result of the work I've done"). It is very troubling indeed.

I find engineering (in general) to be most well developed profession simply because it has been around for centuries (some branches). Even in Canada (a G7 nation at the last check) you will find people doing all kinds of crazy stuff in systems field primarily because it is not as established as Engineering and a lot is left to the interpretations and opinions. I am not even going to think about how they handle systems development down there in NZ given your experience in the Engineering field. Bonne chance!

[borea]

I've just received a PM from another member of the board who has lived here for longer than I have and who agrees with my post. The disturbing thing is, this member felt uncomfortable posting because they felt that their comments would be met with a negative reaction from the rest of the board.

I'm leaving, so I have nothing to lose. However, I think that some of the folks on the board who are staying need to think long and hard about honesty and self-sensorship on this forum. It does a grave disservice to others to talk about the good and hide the bad. Everyone's going to have different experiences, and only by encouraging openness and honesty can a valid picture of all the good and bad about life in New Zealand be built up. Talking about the good but not the bad is lying by omission.

People take great personal and financial risks to come to New Zealand. It is great for some but not so great for others. In choosing whether or not to move to a new country, one will never have all the information one wants, but the more honest information we can provide about life here, the fewer people will make the wrong choice.

[zardell]

I've just received a PM from another member of the board who has lived here for longer than I have and who agrees with my post. The disturbing thing is, this member felt uncomfortable posting because they felt that their comments would be met with a negative reaction from the rest of the board.

I'm leaving, so I have nothing to lose. However, I think that some of the folks on the board who are staying need to think long and hard about honesty and self-sensorship on this forum. It does a grave disservice to others to talk about the good and hide the bad. Everyone's going to have different experiences, and only by encouraging openness and honesty can a valid picture of all the good and bad about life in New Zealand be built up. Talking about the good but not the bad is lying by omission.

People take great personal and financial risks to come to New Zealand. It is great for some but not so great for others. In choosing whether or not to move to a new country, one will never have all the information one wants, but the more honest information we can provide about life here, the fewer people will make the wrong choice.



Well said.


Totally agree 100%.........one of the best postings on this forum to date.


May I take this opportunity to wish you well with your future plans.



Julie

xx

[Avalon]

The disturbing thing is, this member felt uncomfortable posting because they felt that their comments would be met with a negative reaction from the rest of the board.

However, I think that some of the folks on the board who are staying need to think long and hard about honesty and self-sensorship on this forum. It does a grave disservice to others to talk about the good and hide the bad. Everyone's going to have different experiences, and only by encouraging openness and honesty can a valid picture of all the good and bad about life in New Zealand be built up.

Talking about the good but not the bad is lying by omission.
.

Im all for balance and ALL sides being represented.

BUT - just because someone posts about 100% positive experiences of thier life in NZ DOES NOT mean they are lying. Not at all.

I doubt very much that ANYONE on this board is lying. To be honest - im sure most of us have much better things to do with our lives than waste it making stuff about wether we like living or NZ or hate it. I have to say that I find that accusation quite hurtful, and I hope you moderate it. Its utterly unfair to the people who spend literally hours on here trying to help.

There will always be people who do not find anything wrong with NZ, and there will always be those who dont see anything right about it.

Taking pot shots at them (from whichever side of this ridiculous and pointless positive vs negative argument you are on) doesnt say anything worthwhile.

PLEASE can we stop arguing about whether people are posting too negative or too positive ? Surely theres something more useful to talk about?

[zardell]

I doubt very much that ANYONE on this board is lying.





Totally agree with that too, but having said that, I personally didn't read Boreas post as an accusation - just another point of view...........



Julie

xx

[stu70]

Im all for balance and ALL sides being represented.

BUT - just because someone posts about 100% positive experiences of thier life in NZ DOES NOT mean they are lying. Not at all.

I doubt very much that ANYONE on this board is lying. To be honest - im sure most of us have much better things to do with our lives than waste it making stuff about wether we like living or NZ or hate it. I have to say that I find that accusation quite hurtful, and I hope you moderate it. Its utterly unfair to the people who spend literally hours on here trying to help.

There will always be people who do not find anything wrong with NZ, and there will always be those who dont see anything right about it.

Taking pot shots at them (from whichever side of this ridiculous and pointless positive vs negative argument you are on) doesnt say anything worthwhile.

PLEASE can we stop arguing about whether people are posting too negative or too positive ? Surely theres something more useful to talk about?

DISAGREE 100%. This was probably one of the most balanced posts on this forum. This is the whole point. If you simply mention that the posts ought to be honest and fair, this rubs some folks the wrong way. I DID NOT read anything negative in borea's post. NO NEED TO MODERATE WHAT EVER. Regards :nice1

[Avalon]

You surprise me ;)

[borea]

Im all for balance and ALL sides being represented.

BUT - just because someone posts about 100% positive experiences of thier life in NZ DOES NOT mean they are lying. Not at all.

I doubt very much that ANYONE on this board is lying. To be honest - im sure most of us have much better things to do with our lives than waste it making stuff about wether we like living or NZ or hate it. I have to say that I find that accusation quite hurtful, and I hope you moderate it. Its utterly unfair to the people who spend literally hours on here trying to help.

There will always be people who do not find anything wrong with NZ, and there will always be those who dont see anything right about it.

Taking pot shots at them (from whichever side of this ridiculous and pointless positive vs negative argument you are on) doesnt say anything worthwhile.

PLEASE can we stop arguing about whether people are posting too negative or too positive ? Surely theres something more useful to talk about?

I am deeply appreciative of the time and energy the people on this board dedicate to helping others. It is a fantastic resource and a critically important community for many immigrants, including myself.

However, if we as a board allow there to be a culture where negative comments about life here are discouraged, then we as a group are being dishonest with ourselves and with other potential immigrants. You may or may not agree that such a culture exists, but the person who PM'd me did feel that way, and that made me concerned enough to post about it. The fact that an earlier poster in this thread indicated that they'd never heard anything negative about kiwis and then was suddenly met with numerous posts about the negative things some people see about kiwi culture seems to suggest that these things are being held back.

If somebody's life here is 100% positive and they post about that, then that is great. If, however, their life is 75% positive and they feel that they can't post the other 25% due to reaction from the board, then we as a community are being dishonest about life here.

To me it's not about whether people are posting "too positive or too negative," it's about whether they feel that they can be open about both the positive and the negative.

I hope that clarifies my statement somewhat. Looking back I can see why you might have been offended and I appologize for that. I asked that people on the forum think about self-sensorship and honesty. By honesty I meant our collective intellectual honesty as a community. I certainly didn't mean that any individual was intentionally misleading people. You've obviously thought about it and feel that there isn't a problem. Maybe others will agree with you, maybe they won't. All I want is for people to think about it.

[Trigirl]

borea - leaving aside your comments about people "lying by omission" or whatever and any reaction that might have got. you posted negative things about NZ - do you feel you got a negative reaction from the community here for doing so? if so which post do you feel was negative?

[borea]

borea - leaving aside your comments about people "lying by omission" or whatever and any reaction that might have got. you posted negative things about NZ - do you feel you got a negative reaction from the community here for doing so? if so which post do you feel was negative?

That is an excellent point. So far I have received no negative comments about my original post.

It was the fact that one of the positive comments came to me privately and said that they felt they couldn't agree publicly that concerned me most. It is entirely possible that there is no positive bias or self-sensorship going on on the board. However, the fact that a few people have congratulated me on my "self-sensorship" post suggests that I may not be entirely off base. I find most posts on the forum to be more positive than my personal experiences have been, but that certainly doesn't mean that people are leaving out the negative bits.

If you all think that you feel no pressure to seem more upbeat than you really are, then that is superb.

[willowshouse]

If you think about the make-up of this forum .. a large percentage of people have not yet moved to NZ, some have not even visited - these people are considering moving to NZ and although I'm sure they do want to hear about both the positives and the negatives I don't feel this is the right place to be overtly critical of NZ - it would just appear argumentative and more like 'bashing'.

Please don't misunderstand me - if someone has valid reasons for not liking this country and has a genuine desire to inform people of the possible pitfalls then I truly appreciate those posts. It's the whingeing posts which attract the flak and possibly that is why members may feel that negative posts attract negative comments.

I thought that both the original poster of this thread and subsequent comments of agreement were all valid posts and not just a whinge.

Good luck to those leaving - hope you find what floats yer boat

[willsken]

If you all think that you feel no pressure to seem more upbeat than you really are, then that is superb.

I really think a lot of the time it comes down to what we see is a negative reactions to our posts. I will always say what I think (as do many on here) whether it's positive or negative, because I don’t care what reaction I get. I do think however, some people don't like the reactions their posts get and don't bother to post because of this. I know for a fact that there are some members who don't post positive things on here either as they think they will be jumped on. So maybe that balances things out slightly!

I also agree that it’s a lot more helpful when people post the negatives as well as the positives. Sometimes though people need to think about whether their posts come across as factual (helpful) or whether they are a rant about everything (not helpful). These kind of posts do get a reaction and rightly so. If someone wants to write a post about something they genuinely feel is a problem I can’t imagine anyone jumping on them.

[Trigirl]

It is entirely possible that there is no positive bias or self-sensorship going on on the board. However, the fact that a few people have congratulated me on my "self-sensorship" post suggests that I may not be entirely off base.

i think what i was trying to get at is that it may be not whether a post is negative or not that attracts criticism. some negative posts are well thought out descriptions of problems and issues of living in nz. these generally seem to get good reactions from most people.

on the other hand some posts do tend to come across as a bit whingy. if someone comes on here and says how awful nz is because the salaries aren't the same as they are in london, its not 30+ degrees all the time, their house hasn't got radiators and the land isn't actually overflowing with milk and honey then people do occasionally point out - and sometimes quite strongly - that a bit of research prior to moving here might have been in order.

on a slightly different note though there are ongoing discussions on this board about topics that people feel very strongly about such as education, crime, family - and what it means to leave them behind, job prospects, salary levels, racism etc. in almost all cases that i've seen those debates are carried out in a civil and good humoured manner even when there are vast disagreements between the participants.

i would never feel that i couldn't say something negative about NZ here.

[Carol]

I'm confused.

Why the heck would anyone want to tell lies?

Who has the time to sit here and do such things?

If there is one thing I cannot stand it's people who have their own agenda while coming across interested in others.

My ex-boss was great at it.
He called it "networking"
Rubbish.
He was in it for anything he could get.

There are people like that the world over. I dont have much to do with them to be honest... as far as I am concerned what you see is what you get.

If I can be helpful to someone I will.
But all I can do - is tell it like I find it.

I'm not sure what else I CAN do.............. other than move right along and leave you all to it.

I've been thinking about this for a while now - and this thread has probably made my mind up.

[Ana&Steve]

I also agree that it’s a lot more helpful when people post the negatives as well as the positives. Sometimes though people need to think about whether their posts come across as factual (helpful) or whether they are a rant about everything (not helpful). These kind of posts do get a reaction and rightly so. If someone wants to write a post about something they genuinely feel is a problem I can’t imagine anyone jumping on them.Exactly! It's a fine line between personal opinion and distortion of facts, and I think sometimes people hold back too long on what's going on with them, so when they finally do post, all full of frustration, it comes out venomous and gets everyone else upset. Fortunately, it rarely happens on this forum!:nice1
Ana
ps: willsken, still can't give you rep:o

[Moorf]

Well I wrote a long reply to this but the imp that lives in my hard-drive managed to erase it before you guys got to suffer through it....

To sum up, I think there are people on here who don't like being argued with, regardless. They feel that if they post negative and someone says "hey, I don't agree with that" that they're being shouted down.

To "balance" your recent experience with a PM'er with my own, I was the recipient of many emails after a similar thread where those who were too POSITIVE felt shouted down and unable to post their thoughts freely.

We have exactly this debate at regular intervals on this forum and, with respect, it often involves those who perhaps haven't been active on the forum for that long and who formulate a very one-sided view depending on current threads.

I'm afraid that I must have read Borea's post in the same manner as Avalon, I thought that telling those who post mainly positive (yep, that includes me, the no.1 serial "happy with life in NZ" poster) must be "lying" due to leaving out negatives was rather finger pointing. Should we now start making up negatives in case we come across as too content?

PSSST, Ana... Grab the Reader for me tomorrow would ya?! ;)

[Ana&Steve]

pssst Moorf: It IS tomorrow here and I grabbed one this afternoon!:nice1
Ana

[Moorf]

Ohhh, might be next week then cos it's not March there yet is it?! :confused:

[Trigirl]

It IS tomorrow here

isn't it yesterday there?? :confused:

[K&CS]

yeah definitely yesterday there....

[Avalon]

I'm afraid that I must have read Borea's post in the same manner as Avalon, I thought that telling those who post mainly positive (yep, that includes me, the no.1 serial "happy with life in NZ" poster) must be "lying" due to leaving out negatives was rather finger pointing. Should we now start making up negatives in case we come across as too content?


Strangley enough - it was you and Deb that I was thinking of as I wrote that :D

I just cant see either you spending all day wondering what to make up next about your lives here. (and if anyone is in any doubt - let me tell you now that Smiler and Moorf REALLY are as happy with thier lives here as they say they are - they are not saying that while sitting at home moping becuase they really secretly hate it here).

[willsken]

ps: willsken, still can't give you rep:o

I'll take a raincheck!:D (Thanks for the thought though:yes )

[borea]

To sum up, I think there are people on here who don't like being argued with, regardless. They feel that if they post negative and someone says "hey, I don't agree with that" that they're being shouted down.

To "balance" your recent experience with a PM'er with my own, I was the recipient of many emails after a similar thread where those who were too POSITIVE felt shouted down and unable to post their thoughts freely.

It has been said that the sign of a good compromise is that both parties are dissatisfied. It looks like that may be the case here.

We have exactly this debate at regular intervals on this forum and, with respect, it often involves those who perhaps haven't been active on the forum for that long and who formulate a very one-sided view depending on current threads.

Well, I've been on this forum in one way or another for only about 18 months, and my time here has been sporadic. It's entirely possible that I've hit the wrong threads at the wrong times.

I'm afraid that I must have read Borea's post in the same manner as Avalon, I thought that telling those who post mainly positive (yep, that includes me, the no.1 serial "happy with life in NZ" poster) must be "lying" due to leaving out negatives was rather finger pointing. Should we now start making up negatives in case we come across as too content?



That would have been a very horrible thing for me to have said. Luckily, I didn't say that. My point was that if people feel discouraged from posting negatives, then that is dishonest of the community as a whole. I would hope that any individual can post whatever they like. I would encourage people to post both the positive and the negative from their lives as a service to the community. If there isn't any negative for you, great!

It seems that I've inadvertently walked into a topic with some controversial history. I don't pretend to know the answers, and you're quite right that I don't have the consistent history here to make a useful comment. I especially appreciate the comments others have made about the difference that people see between unhelpful 'whinging' and useful negative comments. I'm not sure I fully understand how to tell the difference in all cases, but it's a worthwhile distinction to make.

I had said that people should think about whether negative comments are discouraged. Apparently you and others have indeed put a lot of thought into this and think there is no basis to think it's true. Great! That is as it should be.

[borea]

I'm afraid that I must have read Borea's post in the same manner as Avalon, I thought that telling those who post mainly positive (yep, that includes me, the no.1 serial "happy with life in NZ" poster) must be "lying" due to leaving out negatives was rather finger pointing. Should we now start making up negatives in case we come across as too content?



You are right that my original post was unclear. I'm hoping my next post clarified my intent. In case you missed it:

I am deeply appreciative of the time and energy the people on this board dedicate to helping others. It is a fantastic resource and a critically important community for many immigrants, including myself.

However, if we as a board allow there to be a culture where negative comments about life here are discouraged, then we as a group are being dishonest with ourselves and with other potential immigrants. You may or may not agree that such a culture exists, but the person who PM'd me did feel that way, and that made me concerned enough to post about it. The fact that an earlier poster in this thread indicated that they'd never heard anything negative about kiwis and then was suddenly met with numerous posts about the negative things some people see about kiwi culture seems to suggest that these things are being held back.

If somebody's life here is 100% positive and they post about that, then that is great. If, however, their life is 75% positive and they feel that they can't post the other 25% due to reaction from the board, then we as a community are being dishonest about life here.

To me it's not about whether people are posting "too positive or too negative," it's about whether they feel that they can be open about both the positive and the negative.

I hope that clarifies my statement somewhat. Looking back I can see why you might have been offended and I appologize for that. I asked that people on the forum think about self-sensorship and honesty. By honesty I meant our collective intellectual honesty as a community. I certainly didn't mean that any individual was intentionally misleading people. You've obviously thought about it and feel that there isn't a problem. Maybe others will agree with you, maybe they won't. All I want is for people to think about it.

[Ana&Steve]

psssst:to all who noticed, sorry it is yesterday here:o got all crazy...Moorf, PMed you

[Sam B]

I think you have raised some interesting points, Borea, and you have put them fairly and without aggression.

[Moorf]

I agree, interesting points, except I don't agree that this forum has "a culture where negative comments about life here are discouraged".

I do believe there are more people here who tend towards being positive than negative "on the whole" but they are not without their own niggles. Perhaps that's more indicative of emigration figures as a whole or that most of those who have come to NZ and then returned to their countries have left the forum (can think of a few there) and those who are having a positive experience continue to post here?

Whatever the reason this forum has evolved to what it is due to the sum of its members and yes, we have rather a positive bias - that's just the way it is, not intentional or at all contrived or censored...

PSSSST: thanks Ana! :nice1

[Avalon]

My point was that if people feel discouraged from posting negatives, then that is dishonest of the community as a whole.


Thank you for your earlier apology but:

Could you PLEASE stop accusing the forum (and its members) of being Dishonest (whichever words you use) just because some people decide they do not want to post. NO-ONE is discouraged from posting - and you are being highly unfair to keep suggesting that they are.

If someone DECIDES not to post becasue they feel they may be argued with - that is THIER decision - and should not be foisted or blamed on the people who do decide to post. We are NOT responsible for anyone elses decision to post or not, and that decision does NOT make the forum dishonest in ANY way. It simply means that person has decided not to join in an open forum and have thier POV discussed. They have that right. And posters have the right to dissaggree with any POV they choose.

And if you think it does - how do you reconcile that with your current discouragment of anyone who may want to post a positive post ?????? You are yourself trying to determine which posts should be taken seriously and which need to be treated with "suspicion" as being less than truthful.

Just how much censorship do you want? You cannot have it both ways - either you want us to post our honest opinions, good or bad, or you want us to post only when we aggree 100% with what everyone else says. What the hell is the point??????? No one can agree all the time with everyone else - and expecting us too is silly. There will always be people who do not want to post because they do not like confrontation. I Understand that (im not the only one with bruises to show for being an ENZ poster) - but to make that "our" fault is petty.

There are thousands of posts on here - of all different opinions and viewpoints. Am I the only one seeing that? Am I just looking at an alternative universe of ENZ?

Who exactly is being biased here? You have possibly just "discouraged" another round of Positve posters from being part of the forum. How thats supposed to help people Ill never know.

:no

Interestingly - as Trigirl says - no one argued with your post about life in NZ. SHows just how much truth there is in all this pointless agro.

[able]

Interestingly - as Trigirl says - no one argued with your post about life in NZ.


Borea, I am sad that you switched from discussing your own experiences (I was glad to read these) to becoming a representative for someone else who, unknown to you, probably has their own agenda.

[spudulike]

Could you PLEASE stop accusing the forum (and its members) of being Dishonest (whichever words you use) just because some people decide they do not want to post. NO-ONE is discouraged from posting - and you are being highly unfair to keep suggesting that they are.

If someone DECIDES not to post becasue they feel they may be argued with - that is THIER decision - and should not be foisted or blamed on the people who do decide to post. We are NOT responsible for anyone elses decision to post or not, and that decision does NOT make the forum dishonest in ANY way. It simply means that person has decided not to join in an open forum and have thier POV discussed. They have that right. And posters have the right to dissaggree with any POV they choose.

And if you think it does - how do you reconcile that with your current discouragment of anyone who may want to post a positive post ?????? You are yourself trying to determine which posts should be taken seriously and which need to be treated with "suspicion" as being less than truthful.

Just how much censorship do you want? You cannot have it both ways - either you want us to post our honest opinions, good or bad, or you want us to post only when we aggree 100% with what everyone else says. What the hell is the point??????? No one can agree all the time with everyone else - and expecting us too is silly. There will always be people who do not want to post because they do not like confrontation. I Understand that (im not the only one with bruises to show for being an ENZ poster) - but to make that "our" fault is petty.

There are thousands of posts on here - of all different opinions and viewpoints. Am I the only one seeing that? Am I just looking at an alternative universe of ENZ?

Who exactly is being biased here? You have possibly just "discouraged" another round of Positve posters from being part of the forum. How thats supposed to help people Ill never know.

:no

Interestingly - as Trigirl says - no one argued with your post about life in NZ. SHows just how much truth there is in all this pointless agro.

That's really well put Avalon :clap

I did think the original post had some good points but I agree that if people CHOOSE not to post for fear of repurcussion then it's a bit silly. I mean really, what is the worst that can happen? People may disagree with them! Is that really going to upset the balance of their life? It's only a forum when all's said and done. :roll

Anyway, I've posted lots about life in NZ and as anyone who has read them will know my view certainly isn't rose tinted but I haven't felt attacked. In fact, I have found people on the forum to be mainly helpful and understanding. I think it is great that the majority of people on the forum who are in NZ already have got through any teething troubles and are happy here - it is a wonderful country but not without it's problems so it won't work out for everone. However, all experiences are welcomed on here and even if the debate gets a bit heated then posters will often agree to differ. It would be really boring if we all thought the same!

L

[willsken]

TBH if you want a negative forum I could suggest a couple but it wouldn't include this one. I love this forum because I have found that it has a balance. We have people on here who have lived in NZ for quite some time and while I have seen many a post from them over the course of time explaining the down side of life in NZ BUT their day to day lives are happy. There are also regular posters who loved life in the UK and will ALWAYS put that side of the argument across. Also many people who struggle financially and are happy to share that. Where’s NOT the balance? When I arrived I knew wages were low, driving standards were crap, houses were badly insulated and cold, crime on a per % pop basis was as bad, sausages were awful, I’d miss family and friends badly and it would cost a fortune to see them, roads were bad, shopping was sadly lacking (no M & S) gravy was dire…… I could go on and on and on. I knew the down sides thanks to the people on this forum. I still came and so far love the place. I have negatives to share with people and will do so in the right way. But I will NEVER say anything that I don’t honestly feel and if that’s too positive for some then sorry…..:roll

TBH there was a time on here where things got negative for a while and I stopped visiting as much. I was in the UK and was rightly worried about the decision we'd made to come to NZ. Reading all the negative posts worried me and made the whole thing a lot harder. It wasn't going to stop me coming so it was easier not to come on the forum. When you are making this huge move the forum is here for support. Yes tell it how it is but just remember there are people who rely on the information they get on here for support and to help them cope with the stress of making a move that won’t be stopped by something they read on a forum.

[veronica]

well like the majority of us here I can only post as I find things, got no hidden agendas with anything thats going on. And I do appreciate others will have different views to me as they are standing in different shoes. BUT to get back to the original thread.

I do agree that on a generalisation that most NZers that you meet in the street are friendly, and it is normal practise for them to say on meeting 'how are you'. If you actually answer that question most are stunned. Its just 'local custom' and isn't offering anyone a deep meaningful relationship. And I can see where it is hard to make friends easily with people who have their own established cliques.

Proper friendship is something that isn't given lightly, and while us johnny come latelys NEED to get friendships established the people who have lived here don't neccessarily need more friends, they already have established groups. Its just us who have to rebuild our networks and its easier for us to do this with others in the same boat as us, ie other expats. These friendships need time to develop and Pete and I are lucky in that we are slowly and surely developing these links, both with NZers and others, some of those from this forum.

But just take the walking down the street scenerio, In the Uk heads are down, people don't make eye contact, In Nz people smile and say hello, weathers good or some such gererality, true or not, what do you think. I know which I find more pleasant though.

On the KW ingenuity I can understand why and where that comes from and it is sometimes necessary, but agree it shouldn't replace proper procedures. But you can't tell me there aren't incidences of bodging happening in other places in the world, its not just a kiwi thing, its just that they make a noise about it and us others haven't the heart to disillusion them and point out its a human trait and it happens elsewhere. If you are seriously concerned then its your duty to report this either to superiors or the aviation people.

Everyone keep on posting...just if your views are strong or controversial then expect to get opposing postings from others who are just as opinionated as you, if its your right its theirs too.

[K&CS]

I agree that it does seem a very strange thing to do to accuse people of being dishonest if their posts are not negative enough. However, as Moorf says, this is an old argument that rears its head from time to time. I think if you look through, you will see plenty of negative posts about NZ as well as positive. This is an open forum and some will agree and some will disagree with points made and, on the whole, it makes for a pretty balanced view of things. It’s only when people are having a rant about what they dislike about NZ (or any other country for that matter) that things tend to become a bit heated, which happened on a recent thread.

I also think your view on how evenly balanced the negative/positive threads on NZ are depends on how happy you are in NZ. Those who are on the whole pretty happy here tend to think there are a lot of negative threads and those who are really not happy here tend to find that the posts are unrealistically positive. Those who are somewhere in the middle think it’s pretty evenly spread and in fact, that is probably closer to the truth!

Bear in mind also that the person who sent the PM to borea didn’t dare make the comment because it was to say a negative thing about New Zealanders as people rather than to make a negative comment about New Zealand as a country. I can understand why he/she wouldn’t want to make a comment like that on an open forum. There are quite a few New Zealanders who are members of this forum and it must be pretty offensive to hear them described as such.

[Diny]

And I can see where it is hard to make friends easily with people who have their own established cliques.

Proper friendship is something that isn't given lightly, and while us johnny come latelys NEED to get friendships established the people who have lived here don't neccessarily need more friends, they already have established groups. .


Yeah I agree, this echos a point I made earlier in the 'friendly kiwis' thread. breaking into those established groups can be tough !!

Diny

[gil]

This forum is a microcosm of wider life, or so I believe. That means there are very positive folk and very negative folk. If you looked at all these folk lined up, from most negative to most positive, there would be quite a variation in a) their views and b) the way they express them.
I suspect I would be at the "happy clappy" end with Moorf, Smiler, Trigirl and many others. I know and love people who would be firmly ensconsed at the "realistic/tell it like it is" end. (Quick question: why is "tell it like it is" always portrayed as looking at the less full glass?)

If we all went through the "same" experience, such as attending a play at the theatre, I'm sure we would experience/feel/see it differently and describe it thus.

In fact, we have all gone through the "same" experience, or are planning to, looking into doing so or about to do....and guess what? We all experience/feel/see it differently and describe it thus, due to a number of variables, including place from, place to, job offer, no job, personality, level of optimism/pessimism and many, many more.

My joyous, happy, "love it here" view probably does not represent all that I have experienced. I'm sure my more introverted, pragmatic hubbie could list many things that I have experienced and then forgotten as my focus is on the "upbeat". That does not mean I try to mislead or misrepresent, just say what I can. Some of you will find that cool, some will find it unpalatable.

Let's just be thankful we CAN post our own perspective and leave it to others to interpret through their own "filters".

I feel sure that there's a PhD or some kind of postgrad in here somewhere....:D

More power to our collective elbow!

gil

[borea]

My point was that if people feel discouraged from posting negatives, then that is dishonest of the community as a whole.
Thank you for your earlier apology but:

Could you PLEASE stop accusing the forum (and its members) of being Dishonest (whichever words you use) just because some people decide they do not want to post. NO-ONE is discouraged from posting - and you are being highly unfair to keep suggesting that they are.

I am completely baffled by your post. I haven't accused anybody of anything. I admit that my first post was unclear and probably worded to be more inflamatory than I had intended. I'd like to think that I've clarified myself since then. You say that you don't feel that people are discouraged from posting their negative experiences. If that is so, then the community isn't presenting an intellectually dishonest picture of life here.

I voiced concern that somebody had told me they felt that the culture of the group was such that they couldn't post something negative. I said to the group that if this was so, then that's a problem. Various members of the group have said that they don't think it's so. I don't have enough time here to have a strong opinion either way, but the PMer's feelings seemed and still seem plausible to me. It also seems quite plausible that the PMer has a minority view and that there really is no such problem on the board.

I've obviously managed to walk into a topic with some history and some strong feelings.

If someone DECIDES not to post becasue they feel they may be argued with - that is THIER decision - and should not be foisted or blamed on the people who do decide to post. We are NOT responsible for anyone elses decision to post or not, and that decision does NOT make the forum dishonest in ANY way. It simply means that person has decided not to join in an open forum and have thier POV discussed. They have that right. And posters have the right to dissaggree with any POV they choose.

I have to disagree with this. The reaction of others on the board to a post will have an effect on the poster's willingess to post in the future. If certain types of posts are preferentially attacked, fewer of that kind of post will appear. The community of the board can't simply wash their hands of other posters' decisions to post or not. At this point, I have no idea if there is such a problem on this particular forum, but I can't agree that the forum's community holds no responsibility for the types of posts people feel they can make.

And if you think it does - how do you reconcile that with your current discouragment of anyone who may want to post a positive post ?????? You are yourself trying to determine which posts should be taken seriously and which need to be treated with "suspicion" as being less than truthful.

??? I have no idea how you could have concluded that I want to discourage positive posts. How does saying that I think its important that people not be attacked for negative posts mean that I want fewer positive posts? It doesn't even say I want more negative posts. I couldn't care less how many positive or negative posts there are as long as people feel that they are free to post what they truly feel.

Just how much censorship do you want? You cannot have it both ways - either you want us to post our honest opinions, good or bad, or you want us to post only when we aggree 100% with what everyone else says. What the hell is the point???????

I want no censorship at all. That's my whole point.


There will always be people who do not want to post because they do not like confrontation. I Understand that (im not the only one with bruises to show for being an ENZ poster) - but to make that "our" fault is petty.

If people who post negative experiences feel that they are attacked for it, then it is likely the fault of those who do the attacking. You said before that people don't get attacked for voicing their negative experiences, so why would there be confrontation at all?

There are thousands of posts on here - of all different opinions and viewpoints. Am I the only one seeing that? Am I just looking at an alternative universe of ENZ?

Who exactly is being biased here? You have possibly just "discouraged" another round of Positve posters from being part of the forum. How thats supposed to help people Ill never know.


I can't see how I could possibly have discouraged anybody from anything.


Interestingly - as Trigirl says - no one argued with your post about life in NZ. SHows just how much truth there is in all this pointless agro.

Yes, it is true that nobody attacked me for my original, negative post. That might mean that there's no problem on the board or it may not. I have no idea. I'd hardly call that a statistically significant sample size. More important is the experience over months and years of the people on the board.

[willsken]

Yes, it is true that nobody attacked me for my original, negative post. That might mean that there's no problem on the board or it may not. I have no idea. I'd hardly call that a statistically significant sample size. More important is the experience over months and years of the people on the board.

Well, to be fair you have had a response from a lot of regular (daily) posters and we are pretty much of the opinion that it's a balanced forum. Probably one of the most balanced out there I would say.:D

[borea]

I agree that it does seem a very strange thing to do to accuse people of being dishonest if their posts are not negative enough.

Yes, that would be very strange if anybody had actually done that.

I also think your view on how evenly balanced the negative/positive threads on NZ are depends on how happy you are in NZ. Those who are on the whole pretty happy here tend to think there are a lot of negative threads and those who are really not happy here tend to find that the posts are unrealistically positive. Those who are somewhere in the middle think it’s pretty evenly spread and in fact, that is probably closer to the truth!

I think this is a very wise observation!



Bear in mind also that the person who sent the PM to borea didn’t dare make the comment because it was to say a negative thing about New Zealanders as people rather than to make a negative comment about New Zealand as a country. I can understand why he/she wouldn’t want to make a comment like that on an open forum. There are quite a few New Zealanders who are members of this forum and it must be pretty offensive to hear them described as such.
That is an excellent point. Comments about "national character" are indeed a bit of a minefield.

[borea]

Well, to be fair you have had a response from a lot of regular (daily) posters and we are pretty much of the opinion that it's a balanced forum. Probably one of the most balanced out there I would say.:D

Yes, and from the responses that I've seen it looks like there perhaps isn't a problem. Not everybody would agree, of course.

I'm not trying to stand in judgement, and I'm not taking a vote. My opinion on the matter is irrelevent. I said that I thought it was important that people think about this, and it seems that people have thought about it. That's all I was asking for.

[able]

Yes, it is true that nobody attacked me for my original, negative post. That might mean that there's no problem on the board or it may not. I have no idea. I'd hardly call that a statistically significant sample size. More important is the experience over months and years of the people on the board.

The negative post that started this thread has been up for over a month and has had hundreds/thousands of views. Maybe that's statistically a more significant sample size? The only sentiment expressed to the person who started the thread was gratitude.:yes In a much shorter time, only good things had been said about your original post too borea.:yes Arguments only began when you became the unwitting representative of someone pushing their own agenda.

Best of luck with your move back to Canada. It's a beautiful country.:nice1

[borea]

The negative post that started this thread has been up for over a month and has had hundreds/thousands of views. Maybe that's statistically a more significant sample size? The only sentiment expressed to the person who started the thread was gratitude.:yes In a much shorter time, only good things had been said about your original post too borea.:yes Arguments only began when you became the unwitting representative of someone pushing their own agenda.

Best of luck with your move back to Canada. It's a beautiful country.:nice1

I can't disagree with any of that.

Canada is indeed a beautiful place. I haven't lived there in about 6 years. I don't know if I'll end up there in the long run, but I'm looking forward to going back for a while until I decide what the next step is for me. I'm also really looking forward to heading back home via 10 days on the south island and a month in Australia. I can use the break!

[Debbie P.]

Canada is indeed a beautiful place. I haven't lived there in about 6 years. I don't know if I'll end up there in the long run, but I'm looking forward to going back for a while until I decide what the next step is for me. I'm also really looking forward to heading back home via 10 days on the south island and a month in Australia. I can use the break!

Thanks for your comments (and provoking an interesting discussion!) and good luck with your move :nice1

[Avalon]

I haven't accused anybody of anything.

Talking about the good but not the bad is lying by omission.
then we as a group are being dishonest
then we as a community are being dishonest about life here.
I asked that people on the forum think about self-sensorship and honesty. By honesty I meant our collective intellectual honesty as a community

Perhaps you can see the confusion now?

I have to disagree with this. The reaction of others on the board to a post will have an effect on the poster's willingess to post in the future. If certain types of posts are preferentially attacked, fewer of that kind of post will appear. The community of the board can't simply wash their hands of other posters' decisions to post or not. At this point, I have no idea if there is such a problem on this particular forum, but I can't agree that the forum's community holds no responsibility for the types of posts people feel they can make.

"Preferentially attacked"?????? WTH ????? This is a wind up, right?.


If people who post negative experiences feel that they are attacked for it, then it is likely the fault of those who do the attacking.

Im not repsonsible for what people choose to feel about a post they havent even posted.


I can't see how I could possibly have discouraged anybody from anything.


You have now.:nice1

I cannot be bothered to keep posting on a forum where this keeps happening. Accusations of "dishonesty" and "attacking" are easy to make from the background when you arent on here every day trying to help out those who are having problems. You have been on here 18 months apprarently - and you feel it quite in order after (now) 21 posts to say all this stuff about how we should watch what we say and do in case we stop others from posting and that we are resposible for those decisions.

Fine - Im outta here.

Maybe you could spend the next 18 months actually contributing to the forum and using your experience to help people like yourself instead of picking holes in other peoples behaviour.

Cheerio everyone.

[Howie]

You have been on here 18 months apprarently - and you feel it quite in order after (now) 21 posts to say all this stuff about how we should watch what we say and do in case we stop others from posting and that we are resposible for those decisions.

Just to clarify, Borea and I have shared the same logon up until quite recently. He has posted a lot of helpful info under this logon. I'm not commenting on this thread, just trying to add some factual info that some may/may not find useful.

Susan

[Trigirl]

I'm not sure what else I CAN do.............. other than move right along and leave you all to it.

I've been thinking about this for a while now - and this thread has probably made my mind up.

Fine - Im outta here.

somehow i think the coward who started all this with that PM to borea may have got just what they wanted..... :mad:

[stu70]

You have been on here 18 months apprarently - and you feel it quite in order after (now) 21 posts to say all this stuff about how we should watch what we say and do in case we stop others from posting and that we are resposible for those decisions.



Never judge anyone by their post count. A person might have had just two or three posts. They still have the same potential to help someone else as that of a person who has submitted 10000. Quantity and quality were not the same at last check.

[High]

Hi Everybody

Having just read this thread....is there anybody else out there who also thinks that this might have spun a bit out of control? Can't we just get back to the original postings of why people are leaving NZ? :o

I'd really appreciate it if we could return to the original subject....I know there is a lot of validity in what everyone has been saying, but maybe that could be discussed in a different thread?

OH and I are also leaving NZ, after just over 5 months here. I'd like to get back to reading about other people's reasons for doing the same and comparing them to my own.

[Trigirl]

OH and I are also leaving NZ, after just over 5 months here. I'd like to get back to reading about other people's reasons for doing the same and comparing them to my own.

fair enough.
so why are you and your OH heading back? i remember you posting back in november just as we were getting ready to move out that you were really enjoying it and it was better than you expected it to be? did something go wrong? :( hope all is ok with you both.

[borea]

Hi Everybody

Having just read this thread....is there anybody else out there who also thinks that this might have spun a bit out of control? Can't we just get back to the original postings of why people are leaving NZ? :o

I'd really appreciate it if we could return to the original subject....I know there is a lot of validity in what everyone has been saying, but maybe that could be discussed in a different thread?

OH and I are also leaving NZ, after just over 5 months here. I'd like to get back to reading about other people's reasons for doing the same and comparing them to my own.

You are exactly right, High. I appologize for my part in a stunning example of thread creep. If I had a comment to make off the topic of this very helpful thread, I should have started a new thread.

Sorry for tainting your great thread, Mclarity.

[High]

Please don't apologise Borea - I don't think it's anybody's fault for the change in topic, I just want to get back to the original topic, because obviously this is a very emotional decision for OH and me (like I'm sure it is for you) and we like reading about others' similar experiences.

Okay, reasons for leaving NZ.....pretty much everything that everybody has mentioned here....I think also because before we came here, we were planning on living in a town, and we ended up in Auckland, with no possibility of moving away due to the nature of our jobs....although we did do a LOT of research before coming here, we just found the culture, job market and living arrangements much much different to what we expected.

We kinda think, if we have to be stuck in a city doing our jobs, we may as well be stuck in London, where it's easier for us to fly for family visits to South Africa.

It's hard to explain, and I know that it's just a personal opinion probably made worse by pre-conceived ideas :o , but we feel that we have here is not what we signed up for originally. :no

[Trigirl]

we were planning on living in a town, and we ended up in Auckland, with no possibility of moving away due to the nature of our jobs

yes - i think if we'd only had auckland as an option we probably woudn't have moved over here. my impressions of it as a place to live weren't great and certainly weren't what we were looking for from moving to NZ. luckily being in IT and accountancy we had the option of wellington (which has at least as good if not better IT market and a pretty good - if somewhat govt biased - accountancy market) and has exactly what we were looking for in terms of lifestyle.

good luck with your move to london

mandy