[StuartBFrost]

I see some people are still unsure about HNC/HND's with regards to bonus points etc and as I have just been deselected, then let me confirm what the position is.

If you have a HNC/HND and the long terms skills list (LTSL) says a degree is needed, you CANNOT claim bonus points as a degree is classed as level 7.

You CAN claim 50 points at level 5 for the HNC/HND.

Forget about the "I have x years experience so why does it matter" because NZIS are not interested (and no wonder they have a shortage).

If you claim bonus points for a HNC/HND when the LTSL asks for a degree, you WILL be deselected.

Stuart

[Juniper]

Wow Stuart, that's just crushing to be DEselected :wah So sorry to hear that.

Would you mind explaining some of that terminology a bit? What's HNC/HND? And what's the level 5, level 7 signify?

I've done our points level indicator, and we really do need bonus points for my husband's work experience. He has a 4-yr college degree - he did major in the subject he's claiming experience for, if that matters. We're 130 with bonus points, and about 95 without :uhoh

[StevieD]

Experience does count, as long as it is in the LTSL. I had 15 years plus experience and I got points for that.

[pinkpiggy]

What's HNC/HND?
Juniper: HNC/HND are Higher National Certificates/Diplomas (UK). They usually require 2/3 years study as opposed to 3/4 for a Degree. A HND is one step below a Degree and a HNC a year below that.

And what's the level 5, level 7 signify?
It's hard to explain what level 5/7 is but it's sort of how much study has been done i.e. a HNC/HND are usually Level 4/5 (UK) a Degree is usually Level 6/7 and then if you have a Master Degree it would be Level 8/9.

So the higher the level the more points for NZIS.

[Trigirl]

Experience does count, as long as it is in the LTSL. I had 15 years plus experience and I got points for that.

In the LTSSL and backed up by the qualification listed alongside it in the LTSSL. Otherwise although you can get general points for your experience you wont get bonus points for being in an area of absolute shortage.

[Juniper]

Okay, I think I get it now :-) Thanks for the clarification! We should be fine I guess.

[Ana&Steve]

I think an HNC/HND may be the equivalent of a US Associates Degree, or level 5, While a US Bachelors is a level 7. Sorry, late to the game :o
Ana
StuartBFrost, sorry that happened, it happened to us last year, and it took some effort to get back on track. But then we found this forum, and that has helped alot! :nice1

[StuartBFrost]

Yes, it's a real pain to get deselected. I now have 100 points and no real chance of getting selected again.

After being very annoyed with NZIS, my reaction is no wonder they have a skills shortage in IT when they discount people with lots of experience because they didn't study for 1 extra year 10+ years ago.

I never have a problem getting a job in the UK and I haven't been asked whether I have a degree for well over 10 years. Employers are more concerned about my experience.

Stuart

[gil]

Yes, it's a real pain to get deselected. I now have 100 points and no real chance of getting selected again.
Stuart

Really sorry to hear your news Stuart, it must feel c**p :(. Is getting a job offer a possibility?

Gil

[StuartBFrost]

I haven't really tried to get a job because it would take several months to get out there and I don't know whether employers would be willing to wait.

Our original plan was to get the visa, sell up, arrive in NZ with about £150,000 and then get a job.

I'm not willing to sell up and go out without the visa because I don't trust NZIS.

Stuart

[KerryS]

I haven't really tried to get a job because it would take several months to get out there and I don't know whether employers would be willing to wait.

Our original plan was to get the visa, sell up, arrive in NZ with about £150,000 and then get a job.

I'm not willing to sell up and go out without the visa because I don't trust NZIS.

Stuart

That's obviously your choice, and in your situation having been burned by NZIS once I can understand that you are wary.
Is there no chance you could come over to NZ and get a job and a work visa before selling up entirely? I know this isn't feasible for some, but there are certainly plenty of IT jobs available here and it's usually a much simpler process to get PR once you are in NZ.

[Juniper]

I personally think that a year of experience is better than a year of education. Too bad NZIS disagrees, grr...

[StuartBFrost]

That's obviously your choice, and in your situation having been burned by NZIS once I can understand that you are wary.
Is there no chance you could come over to NZ and get a job and a work visa before selling up entirely? I know this isn't feasible for some, but there are certainly plenty of IT jobs available here and it's usually a much simpler process to get PR once you are in NZ.

I don't really have the funds to do that unless I sell up first.

Stuart

[gil]

I haven't really tried to get a job because it would take several months to get out there and I don't know whether employers would be willing to wait.

Our original plan was to get the visa, sell up, arrive in NZ with about £150,000 and then get a job.

I'm not willing to sell up and go out without the visa because I don't trust NZIS.

Stuart

Re para 1, it might be worth applying for some and see how you go, as the process can take a few months. Some friends here have friends from UK arriving to start work in 8 weeks and they've been in the process for about 4 months already...some employers take forever anyway, so your preferred time delay might not be too much of an issue. Not sure how you'd feel if you came first and the family followed once the house was sold? We know several people who've done that and found it an acceptable way to get over here. I suppose it depends on how much you all really want to make the move to NZ.

Re para 2, what was Plan B? If this move has taught us one thing, it's to be flexible!

Re para 3, it must be difficult after what's happened Stuart. Is it NZIS or NZQA who are the root? As has been said, it is far more straightforward to get PR once you're here working and medicals are cheaper too.
Good luck with your plans and remember, if something's worth doing , there will always be obstacles in the path to it.
Let us know what you decide, all the best,
Gil

[willowshouse]

I don't really have the funds to do that unless I sell up first.


Obviously it is your choice how you want to move forward from here but if I were in your situation and the only thing stopping me was funding then I would consider:

a. Getting an extra advance on your mortgage

OR

b. Selling up and coming over anyway .. get a job, then a work permit so you can start work and then re-submit your EOI with a job offer

Dealing with immigration IS a pain but you CAN do it - and you only have to get PR once!

Good luck with your decision,
Dawn

[StuartBFrost]

Re para 1, it might be worth applying for some and see how you go, as the process can take a few months. Some friends here have friends from UK arriving to start work in 8 weeks and they've been in the process for about 4 months already...some employers take forever anyway, so your preferred time delay might not be too much of an issue. Not sure how you'd feel if you came first and the family followed once the house was sold? We know several people who've done that and found it an acceptable way to get over here. I suppose it depends on how much you all really want to make the move to NZ.

Re para 2, what was Plan B? If this move has taught us one thing, it's to be flexible!

Re para 3, it must be difficult after what's happened Stuart. Is it NZIS or NZQA who are the root? As has been said, it is far more straightforward to get PR once you're here working and medicals are cheaper too.
Good luck with your plans and remember, if something's worth doing , there will always be obstacles in the path to it.
Let us know what you decide, all the best,
Gil

I did contact a couple of agencies a few months ago. One didn't reply and the other sent me this form to fill in which I never got round to doing (wanted too much detail.

If there is one thing that fills me with dread and that is dealing with agencies. Never met a good one in 20 years.

I guess there wasn't really a Plan B. I naively thought that NZ having a supposed IT shortage would do everything they could to make the process flexible. I didn't realise until I wasted my £100 on the EOI that it was a lottery I couldn't win.

Stuart

[StuartBFrost]

Obviously it is your choice how you want to move forward from here but if I were in your situation and the only thing stopping me was funding then I would consider:

a. Getting an extra advance on your mortgage

OR

b. Selling up and coming over anyway .. get a job, then a work permit so you can start work and then re-submit your EOI with a job offer

Dealing with immigration IS a pain but you CAN do it - and you only have to get PR once!

Good luck with your decision,
Dawn

a. is a no go. I really don't want to increase the mortgage.

b. is a possibility but I hate the idea of selling up, not getting residency and force to come back to the UK with no money to start again.

Stuart

[gil]

I didn't realise until I wasted my £100 on the EOI that it was a lottery I couldn't win.

Dear Stuart,
At the risk of sounding rather blunt/severe, what you say puts me in mind of several other people I have seen post on here who have not made it to NZ in the end as they are unwilling to look for and work upon the things they can actually influence (such as alternative ways to achieve the move), preferring instead to focus and dwell on the things that they see as issues and concerns, over which they actually have little or no control (NZIS, interest rates, exchange rates etc).

It can feel as if there is an element of "lottery" to the EOI selection, but draws are made on published criteria not purely on chance. There have been some very good suggestions made on this thread that have enabled other people to move out here. And once you get here, there are no guarantees; for some it works, for some it doesn't, but everyone has to take that opportunity and try it out for themselves. It's a testing path to move here and rightly so, in my opinion. NZ doesn't owe any of us, skilled in IT or anything else, the right to move here just because we think we ought to be able to.

I guess what I am saying is that we all feel the need top "lick our wounds" after a knock-back at some cost, but how we react is what's important. If NZ is where you and your family truly want to be, you will find a way, it might just be a different way than you expected.

I wish you all the best with this Stuart. You will have plenty of support and help from the people on this forum, you only have to ask.
Let us know how you get on,
:cheers
Gil

[StuartBFrost]

Dear Stuart,
At the risk of sounding rather blunt/severe, what you say puts me in mind of several other people I have seen post on here who have not made it to NZ in the end as they are unwilling to look for and work upon the things they can actually influence (such as alternative ways to achieve the move), preferring instead to focus and dwell on the things that they see as issues and concerns, over which they actually have little or no control (NZIS, interest rates, exchange rates etc).

It can feel as if there is an element of "lottery" to the EOI selection, but draws are made on published criteria not purely on chance. There have been some very good suggestions made on this thread that have enabled other people to move out here. And once you get here, there are no guarantees; for some it works, for some it doesn't, but everyone has to take that opportunity and try it out for themselves. It's a testing path to move here and rightly so, in my opinion. NZ doesn't owe any of us, skilled in IT or anything else, the right to move here just because we think we ought to be able to.

I guess what I am saying is that we all feel the need top "lick our wounds" after a knock-back at some cost, but how we react is what's important. If NZ is where you and your family truly want to be, you will find a way, it might just be a different way than you expected.

I wish you all the best with this Stuart. You will have plenty of support and help from the people on this forum, you only have to ask.
Let us know how you get on,
:cheers
Gil

I think I am perfectly justified in complaining about the EOI system simply because I have 100 points (since I have an HND and lots of experience) but I have no chance of being selected because of the selection criteria. That to me is an unfair lottery.

If I had known that I was wasting £100, I wouldn't have bothered at that stage.

I know there are other ways of getting into NZ but my overall complaint is that NZIS are fooling people with lower qualifications that they stand a chance of doing it the "ideal" way, charging a not so small amount and then changing the rules. It still seems odd that the "points indicator" on the NZIS website is still very incorrect in its prospective totals.

Stuart

[willsken]

I think I am perfectly justified in complaining about the EOI system simply because I have 100 points (since I have an HND and lots of experience) but I have no chance of being selected because of the selection criteria. That to me is an unfair lottery.

If I had known that I was wasting £100, I wouldn't have bothered at that stage.

I know there are other ways of getting into NZ but my overall complaint is that NZIS are fooling people with lower qualifications that they stand a chance of doing it the "ideal" way, charging a not so small amount and then changing the rules. It still seems odd that the "points indicator" on the NZIS website is still very incorrect in its prospective totals.

Stuart

Stuart - you are in the same position as a friend of mine. His qualification wasn't quite up to it due to him missing one written exam 20 years ago (about 5% of the total 3 year qualification). This has never had an effect on him working in the UK. BUT it was him that didn't have what was required by NZ. We were all scandalised when he was deselected (they reduced his points to 100). It was gutting for him and his family and they wasted months more in time and a lot more in £££ getting the qualification to the acceptable level. This hasn't made him any better at his job (been doing it for 20 years) and it really was just a case of jumping through the required hoops because HE really wanted to live in NZ. As unfair as this process seems at times if we take the time to really look into the requirements then they are there for all to see.

All I can say is that the friend has now got his PR and arrived in NZ 2 days ago. It all comes down to how much you want this move. It’s a hard process for all of us - even when things run relatively smoothly. There were times over the last 18 months when I questioned my sanity of even attempting getting here. We are here now though and for us we have no doubt what so ever that we have made the right move.

Good luck – remember for all of us this is a gamble, be it selling up in the UK with no way of knowing if this is the right move for us or jumping on a plane and seeing if you can make it work by arriving and finding a job. If you really really want a life in NZ you can have it. You may just have to take the gamble of a life time.

Good luck :nice1

[gil]

Well put, Willsken. Your friend's experience illustrates perfectly 2 things which, in my experience, can remind us of the key things for creating happiness in our lives:

1. The Five Cs: never complain, never compare, never condemn, never criticise and never quit!
2. Do what you can, with what you have, where you are, whilst you can.

Stuart, I hope you find what you're looking for, wherever that may be. And remember, this forum is a source of valuable information and support if you need it,
All the best,
gil

[willsken]

I think I am perfectly justified in complaining about the EOI system simply because I have 100 points (since I have an HND and lots of experience) but I have no chance of being selected because of the selection criteria. That to me is an unfair lottery.

Stuart

I have to add that when we started the process 100 points would get you selected from the pool. If this really is the only way you would apply then maybe at some point in the future the points will drop again? :nice1

[StevieD]

Worked for me Stuart! I "only" have an HNC, as does my wife. Her's isn't worth the paper it's written on, whereas mine is a sought after qualification, so it depends on what your qualification is in. In fact, my HNC had added trade qualifications which makes it even more attractive. I wasn't that far off a degree if I had wanted to pursue it. It hasn't done me wrong with 19 years work in the telecommunications and radio industry.
I can understand you being upset at being knocked back, but as others have rightly said, the information is there, and if you did take a chance on the selection by having 100 points, well, that's a gamble.

What experience were you counting on if you don't mind me asking? This has come up time and again on this forum, and maybe it is an area that needs clarification. There are people who could possibly benefit from this - would be interesting to know.

Good luck in whatever path you choose.

[Trigirl]

stuart - i understand your obvious frustration but it is a system and not a lottery. the criteria are published in advance and although you say they have been changed they really haven't. this criteria was around when we applied well over a year ago.

the long term skills shortage list and its educational criteria are published openly. the operations manual that every case officer works from is published online. NZIS are available to ask questions of - even before you have entered an EOI. so there are lots of opportunities to check the rules. it can be complex I agree and perhaps the selection criteria may be unfair but it sounds like they were followed.

if it suits you then you can dwell on this and get angry with NZIS and with those who are trying to offer you alternative thoughts. or if you prefer you can move on and either make the most of your life in NZ, look for a different way to get to NZ - and there have been some very good suggestions made, or even think about other areas of the world that you might want to live in.

i wish you all the luck with whatever you decide to do.

[willowshouse]

b. is a possibility but I hate the idea of selling up, not getting residency and force to come back to the UK with no money to start again.


If you really think that there is a possibility that you would not get a job if you sold up and came here (given that you can get a work permit very quickly once you have a job offer) then I could understand your point of view BUT you work in an area of shortage .. and you speak good english. Why would you not get a job? If you want some reassurance from others who have been through it, you will find it on this forum.

As I said before - it is a hassle, BUT, if you want it enough you will find a way.

Once again, the best of luck in your endeavours.

Dawn

[StuartBFrost]

I understand that all the rules for applying for an EOI are generally available, but my "complaint" is that they are contradictory in terms of how the website makes out how it works.

1. The points indicator for me (even if I say no to everything) still says I have at least 125 points when I don't.

2. They give you points for an HND (level 5) and then say you need a degree (level 7) to get bonus points. However, without bonus points, you have no chance of being selected (with the current criteria) yet that is not mentioned before submitting and paying for the EOI.

3. Every 6 months they announce the criteria used for EOI selection. If you don't have bonus points, it is very difficult to be selected yet you only stay in the pool for 6 months so once the criteria is announced, you have wasted your money.

4. If the EOI was initially free to apply, I bet that NZIS would ensure that the rules were even more clear.

I'm not criticising anybody on this board. I have gleaned lots of information from forum members but given the amount of questions about what is and isn't allowed on EOI's shows how confusing the process is.

StevieD: My experience is an HND in Computer Studies and 20 years IT Analyst/Programming experience.

Stuart

[StevieD]

Thanks Stuart. I can't understand how you don't come up to the points level with that experience. Surely you can claim points for this? Or maybe it is the wheat from chaff thing, take the ones with jobs first, then choose from those without. There is still hope for you yet then??