[justin.g.s]

Kamus, I just had a chance to read your pentagon reports, and if you take them at face value they are frightening.

The desire to free ourselves from the dependence on oil is important. Trust me I am right there with you on that one. I live in L.A the local mountains are 20 miles away, I can count on one hand the number of days in a year you can view them.

I have dreamed of the day that our skies were free of smog and pollution. You read reports like this and it is hard not to ask what are the motivations of a President(with connections to the oil industry) and why would he possibly be a against things like the Kyoto Protocal.

Seems as plane as the nose on the end of my face.

Being a student of the Environment, I have a degree in it from U.C.L.A, I have read quite a few similar articles. It covered some of the issues involving THE DEBATE over global warming.

I know there are alot of Doom and Gloom types out there. I had four years to become familiar with there arguments.

If I had more time I could attack alot of the theories in those papers, eg it talks about the albedo factor of snow. Ice is reflective, less ice means more thermal retention.

O.K but it skips the models that show increasing temps in ambient air lead to increasing amounts of clouds. Clouds have there own albedo actor. Cloudy sky, sun does not reach through to soil, soil does not absorb heat + the tops of the clouds reflect heat back into the outer atmospher.

Its things like this lead people to discuss the butterfly affect. The factors involved in weather models are nearly mind numbing.

I don't disagree that there is imperical evidence that the planet is warming. Is this the result of green house gases, maybe.

But that does not adress the fact that over the last 250,000 we have seen cycle after cycle of periods of warming and coolings.

Your pentagon article states that 8500 years ago there was a period of global warming that caused famine on a wide spread scale.

Was this the result of too many Mesopotamian farmers driving too many gas guzzling Hummers :roll:

The planet is a living breathing marvel, nature reveals itself to by cyclical that is imperical.

Alot of my teachers at U.C.L.A encouraged skepticism. CHeck out what this fine citizen of New Zealand has to say.

http://mailman.efn.org/pipermail/skeptix/Week-of-Mon-20040426/000125.html

[Annierobrigado]

what i admire most about first world countries is that your laws are already in place and your public servants (i don't mean the politicians, coz they are a class in their own) are dedicated to ensuring that these laws are abided to by everyone, whether one is a public official or a private janitor. and the plethora of opportunities to improve oneself especially if you've just come from the bottom rung of the ladder.

in my country, we do have freedom, and independence too, (depending on what the first world countries say, :P ). i'm just joshing. what i mean is, the reasons we from the third world would like to migrate to the first world is to take advantage too of those opportunities to improve our families' lives. you guys can discuss bush et al all you want, you can leave but have the option to return. a lot of migrants have to take an oath of allegiance to their adoptive country, and forget about their country of birth, because that's the price they have to pay for those opportunities they've been pursuing all their lives.

i understand borders, they're a lot like fences. many people would want high story-electrified massive fences, complete with german sheperds and rottweilers led by equally grim-faced soldiers guarding every inch of those fences. i'd much prefer those picket fences, with flowers and bushes, something out of tom sawyer. am i being naive? well, i'd rather live in a cottage rather than fort knox. neighbors being neighborly instead of looking outside behind their drapes or curtains, and saying "i don't want to get involved, it's not my problem". i have a tendency sometimes to do that, coz i don't want to be labeled meddling busybody, but it gets to my conscience to reflect, i should have done something to help, only after the fact. opportunity to do good is lost with all the shoulda coulda wouldas.

i understand some parts of america have this culture up to now, but mostly it's individualistic. that's according to many of my countrymen who have migrated to the us, who continue to bear the discrimination heaped upon them but would rather suffer in silence than lose the opportunity to stay in the US and fulfill their american dream.

i know discrimination abounds everywhere, but that really depends on the person and people around him/her. i have no new zealand experience, but from what i've read and from the kiwis i've come in contact with so far, i believe these cultural borders are somewhat hazy in new zealand, and there's some sort of mingling and merging of what's good in everybody.

thanks for all your inputs. i'd still love to have a cup of coffee or tea with you, but i'd probably end up just listening to you guys discuss things. it's been fun though!

peace man

annie

[kamus]

Dave in fact has the other half of my brain

Rae

I'm not sure but I think you're calling me a half-wit!

If I start seeing one half of my head start to look like an adorable plastic penguin then I'll really start worrying! :P

Dave

[karltsmith]

:laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

<Oh my aching sides emoticon>

[Pakeha Boy]

You know something?
There would appear to be some seriously clever, decent and passionate people here on this thread. Strikes me there's a bunch out there who really care.
And thats JUST on this thread. Seems like both you Republicans and Democrats, way out here at the edge of cyber space, can actually talk to each other.
So, heres a curve ball for you...........
Stay in the US!
Stay there, get yourselves organised, create your own party, and start a revolution for the little guy. A common sense revolution that will win the votes of 270 million other little guys. The two big parties are history. Everyone knows it, but there is no other alternative. Well, not 'til now anyway. C'mon now. You know it makes sense, what other choice is there? And the REALLY scary question is, if no-one stands up, then what state will America and the rest of the world be in, say, in 10-15 years from now?
Total social breakdown..........imagine!

(not that I want to scare away such resourceful and talented people such as yourselves from the shores of sanctuary now y'hear y'all) :cool

[drumminj]

You know something?
There would appear to be some seriously clever, decent and passionate people here on this thread. Strikes me there's a bunch out there who really care.
And thats JUST on this thread. Seems like both you Republicans and Democrats, way out here at the edge of cyber space, can actually talk to each other.
So, heres a curve ball for you...........
Stay in the US!
Stay there, get yourselves organised, create your own party, and start a revolution for the little guy. A common sense revolution that will win the votes of 270 million other little guys. The two big parties are history. Everyone knows it, but there is no other alternative. Well, not 'til now anyway. C'mon now. You know it makes sense, what other choice is there? And the REALLY scary question is, if no-one stands up, then what state will America and the rest of the world be in, say, in 10-15 years from now?
Total social breakdown..........imagine!

(not that I want to scare away such resourceful and talented people such as yourselves from the shores of sanctuary now y'hear y'all) :cool

You know, that is a good idea, and probably is what we "should" do. But I'm a slacker by day, so that probably wouldn't pan out too well. But I'd be happy to watch others try....from many thousands of miles away :)

J

[Raeven]

You know something?
There would appear to be some seriously clever, decent and passionate people here on this thread.

Hi, PB,

Very kind of you to say so. But I think the answer is, we're clever enough to have figured out it's time to make like bananas and split.

I've been alarmed by my government before. I'm old enough to remember The Nixon Years. The problem this time around is, as kamus/Dave pointed out, too many of our population are completely blind to the atrocities of this administration. The disconnect is complete. Despite the fact of its transferring cash to the extremely rich at the expense of the middle class, its pandering to polluters and oil magnates, its indifference to a ballooning federal deficit, its hostility to science, its political alliances with fanatic religious fundamentalisms, its partisan exploitation of the 9/11 tragedy, its breathtaking transfigurement of the worldwide solidarity that followed those attacks into worldwide anti-Americanism and its diversion of American blood, money and expertise away from the pursuit of Al Qaeda to an occupation of Iraq that seems to have done nothing to weaken terrorism and may in fact have strengthened it, a majority of people in the USA at this point seem willing and in fact eager to put GWB & Co. back in power for another 4 years. There's a time for sticking around, and there's a time for getting the flock out of here.

Like J, I'll be watching with great interest from afar.

But thanks again for the compliments!! - Rae

[coastcat]

I agree with Rae (as usual). Our inclination is to heed the wise words of Kenny Rogers:

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.

It's time to fold our hand and try a different game. Like netball. ;)

[SoCal Gal]

Once again, Raeven and CoastCat, you summed it up for me! And to think I wasn't really a big fan of country & western! Kenny rocks!! :cool

[kamus]

What Raeven said. All of it. Every word

Seems that you have all of your brain :D

Dave

[clg]

Good post Rae. There is only so much you can do. For me a conversation with a SIL was a big eye opener. All she really cares about is the whole moral/religous side that Bush brings up. She does not like Iraq but the fact that he prays for guidance is what she really cares about.

This really scares me and there are too many people like this out there. The smarterst, and scrariest, thing the republicans have done is to get the christian block behind them. It no longer becomes an issue of policy but one of faith and you cannot reason with people who are willing to accept a position as an act of faith. I find the religous right nearly as scary as the islamic extremists.

Now, having said all of this I am still optimistic that people will wise up eventauly but it is going to take some bumps for that to happen.

Chris

[kamus]

Kamus, I just had a chance to read your pentagon reports, and if you take them at face value they are frightening.

The desire to free ourselves from the dependence on oil is important. <snip>
Being a student of the Environment, I have a degree in it from U.C.L.A, I have read quite a few similar articles. It covered some of the issues involving THE DEBATE over global warming.

I know there are alot of Doom and Gloom types out there. I had four years to become familiar with there arguments.

<snip>


Alot of my teachers at U.C.L.A encouraged skepticism. CHeck out what this fine citizen of New Zealand has to say.

http://mailman.efn.org/pipermail/skeptix/Week-of-Mon-20040426/000125.html

Justin- Thanks for the link- I'll read it when I get the chance.

I think I understand what you're saying: Climate change that may or not be happening may or may not be related to Global Warming.

Well, I think there are few more subjects as controversial as the whole Global Warming/Climate Change argument and I stay clear of it as even the scientists who study it can't seem to agree.

Also, your point on skepticism is well taken and in these days of "experts" "facts" Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth" etc. we all need to exercise a healthy skepticism about everything we read and hear.

On the other hand, it seems that there is an increasing consensus among the scientific community, and indeed, even the Bush administration has recently acknowledged that the use of the atmosphere as a carbon sink may be causing long term climatological problems. No one knows for sure yet but surely a cautious, what-if-they're-right approach is surely the prudent way to go.

Less controversial, I feel, is the Peak Oil stuff, and that is the issue that should be of more immediate concern to all of us. I look at the massive economic impact that 9/11 attacks had in the US and around the world and I shudder at the potential consequences of a possible (and likely) oil crash. After all, not only is the obvious stuff like petrol, heating oil and generated electricity heavily dependent on oil but plastics, fertilisers and by extension, our very food supply too- all resting upon the increasingly shaky edifice that is our oil based economy.

We all have reason to be concerned-and in particular, mostly for our children, for I think they are the ones that will deal with this head on.

The potential consequences are very, very sobering: economic collapse leading to social breakdown, the failure of law and order, famine, and wars- scenarios rather all too easily imagined. There is already a conspiracy theory floating around that Peak Oil concerns fueled (pardon) the push for war in Iraq. I'm not sure how true that is but it's not too difficult a stretch given the gravity of the coming crisis.

I can't help thinking of a ballet by Maurice Ravel called "La Valse"that was written in the early years of the 20th century just as the unprecedented horrors of World War I were being realized on the battlefields of Europe. The plot essentially depicts an opulent ballroom filled with elegant dancers swirling around the dance floor almost desperately oblivious to the destuction of the world around them as the music moves almost imperceptibly from beautiful Viennese-like waltz themes to music that is increasingly jarring and violent till it explodes and their beautiful 19th century world disintegrates with it, forever gone.

Well, I feel like we are those dancers. OK that's a pretty melodramatic image but, honestly, I can't get the image (or the music) out of my head.
(Incidentally, if you tolerate classical music and haven't heard this piece, it's both beautiful and powerful.)

I do realize what a gloomy scenario I'm relaying here. That's not to say that there isn't reason to hope. I don't think it's too late and perhaps if the world's governments act in time we can avoid the worst of it. But just in case they don't, I want to move my family to some place (New Zealand please, please) where the general populace isn't heavily armed with automatic weapons and where somewhere around 50% of them are seemingly capable of making incredibly bad decisions.

Thanks for listening

Dave

[Raeven]

What Raeven said. All of it. Every word

Seems that you have all of your brain :D

Dave

Hi, Dave,

LOL, I still think we split one at birth or something.. either that, or we read the same websites/publications/etc. In any case, we appear to have drawn many of the same conclusions about what's happening in our government. That of course makes you the smartest guy I know!

I am going to look for that ballet by Ravel. I do enjoy classical music, although I'm not conversant. A very apt metaphor, I think. Sadly.

All the best, Rae

[kamus]

... That of course makes you the smartest guy I know!



Congrats on your promotion to "thoroughly good egg"! You must be very proud! I'm stuck at "I'll hang around awhile" for a bit longer. I think this reward system encourages people (me) to write vacuous posts just to get their total up-like this one, for instance!

Also, if I'm the smartest guy you know, you need to get out more! :nice1

Dave

[jesselyn]

... That of course makes you the smartest guy I know!

Congrats on your promotion to "thoroughly good egg"! You must be very proud! I'm stuck at "I'll hang around awhile" for a bit longer. I think this reward system encourages people (me) to write vacuous posts just to get their total up-like this one, for instance!
Also, if I'm the smartest guy you know, you need to get out more! :nice1


rae,
congratulations!!! :clap

dave,
of course, you are - wanting to move to NZ makes you smart ;)

jes :angel

[Raeven]

For me a conversation with a SIL was a big eye opener. All she really cares about is the whole moral/religous side that Bush brings up. She does not like Iraq but the fact that he prays for guidance is what she really cares about.

Hi, Chris,

Very valid point. It also clarifies what I failed to include in my post, which is that it is not solely the fault of GWB & Co. that we are in the situation we are in. J raised it earlier in the discussion that our Congress has much to answer for, and I do agree with that, but even more importantly as both he and kamus/Dave have said in previous posts, the American people themselves have a responsibility to be decently informed and make rational choices. Things could never have gotten this far out of whack without the complicity of our populace. And in my opinion, the minute you allow someone to lead who claims an inside track to divine guidance is the minute you've put yourself in the same pot with Islamic fundamentalists. What's the difference, really?

We've had many Presidents who are deeply religious, but none had the impudence or hubris to claim they were acting on behalf of the Almighty -- until now. It raises the hair on the back of my neck, it really does.

Glad you've joined our discussion!

Dave, I honestly had to puzzle through your "thoroughly good egg" reference and it took me awhile to figure out I had been 'promoted'!! Woo hoo!! But thank you all the same. Still, I'd trade my 4 planes in a heartbeat for a dancing banana!!! :cool

All the best, Rae

[clg]

I do agree that ulitmatley the american people are to blame for any situation that they get themselves into with their, elected, representatives.

But, our system of government is not really very conducive to discourse and debate. We have an extremly entrenched two party system and the parties essentially set the agenda which for the most part seems to revovle around obtaining power and then responding to issues that may impact the ability to gain/hold power (through reelection).

Unless you are able to deliver $ or a significant number of votes your concerns wil not register.

I don't think people will really get activley invovled in politics unless they are forced to. It will take some sort of major event to shake peoples faith in the system and get people to start asking questions. What I would really like to see, but I don't think I will for quite some time, is that we hold a constitutional convention and really rethink how our government is structured.

Our current election really just solidifes, in my mind, what is wrong with the system. We have a sitting president that should be extremely vulnerable and the Dems manage to put up one of the worst candidates possible against him. The democratic canidate was decided in just a few, very small states. My vote in CA was not worth anything because there had already been a decitions made. Kerry has given me no real reason to vote for him except to vote against Bush.

[Annierobrigado]

[Congrats on your promotion to "thoroughly good egg"! You must be very proud! I'm stuck at "I'll hang around awhile" for a bit longer. I think this reward system encourages people (me) to write vacuous posts just to get their total up-like this one, for instance!

Also, if I'm the smartest guy you know, you need to get out more! :nice1

Dave[/quote]

hello dave,

so that's what those airplanes mean, and the i think i'll hang around thingys. exactly how many posts does a thoroughly good egg lay? is that the next level? what's the topmost? (just curious. i don't remember putting such a thing on my profile, but i got an - I think i'll hang around thing. :? )

this thread's very popular. it's now on its 7th page! what will we talk about when we get to sit down with cups of tea or coffee?

:cool annie

[kamus]

I do agree that ulitmatley the american people are to blame for any situation that they get themselves into with their, elected, representatives.

<snip>

Kerry has given me no real reason to vote for him except to vote against Bush.

Agreed.

Kerry is a crummy but unfortunately neccessary alternative.

A friend of mine pointed out that, internationally up until now, a distinction has been made between the insanity of the Bush administration and the culpability of the American people. In other words, the world has yet to blame America as a whole for the post 9/11 fiasco and reccognised that for the most part Bushco was acting more or less unilaterally.

I'm afraid that that view will radically change if GWB is (re) elected as appears likely now. Current polls are showing him in the lead(!) and if this disturbing trend continues Americans can look forward to an increasingly unfriendly reception in much of the rest of the world. And what on earth will he be capable of doing in the next four years if he feels as if he has an actual mandate this time?!

Frankly I'm astounded that he hasn't been impeached- I could never have imagined that with all that's happened that he's actually running on the Iraq war as a strength! Despite being raised in such a supposedly educated and privileged nation, the majority of the American people have shown themselves to be incapable of transcending their own selfish fears and incapable of discerning the relatively simple truth.

OK, OK, I'm so sorry!
I really have to apologise. I confess I've been using this thread as a sort of anger release therapy- it has felt good to preach to the choir for a change! Pity my poor wife who has to dutifully listen to me spout off like this every day. But I will make an effort to leave this thread alone from now on and concentrate on the positive matters more directly related to NZ itself.


Sometimes I forget, I'm a just a musician type guy, and aside from caring for my family, which is my greatest joy in life, I just want to create music again without the shadow of some dangerous zealot continually lurking over me and without feeling that all too familiar anger every time I listen to the radio or pick up a newspaper.

I thank you all for allowing me to rant away and I really enjoyed your comments and perspectives immensely.

Thanks again- Dave

[kamus]

so that's what those airplanes mean, and the i think i'll hang around thingys. exactly how many posts does a thoroughly good egg lay? is that the next level? what's the topmost? <snip>

this thread's very popular. it's now on its 7th page! what will we talk about when we get to sit down with cups of tea or coffee?

:cool annie

I think the levels change at 25, 50, 100, 250 and 500. Perhaps Karl will correct me if I'm wrong. So it's 250 eggs to be thoroughly good. Not an easy achievement either. I looked at Raeven's profile and it said something like 37.5 per day! I'm only good for 2.11 posts a day so I'm a real slacker by comparison.

Remember, when it comes to the coffee, I'm buying!

-Dave

[karltsmith]

God (Douglas) only has the answer to this one Kamus....but you've obviously spent some time studying to come up with those figures! Oh how the long winter evenings must fly by in the Kamus household! :laugh

We could introduce different levels of egginess if you wish so you can watch your score becoming even more hard boiled! :mrgreen:

How about coddled, runny, hard, Benedict, poached or even scrambled!
:eek

:laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh

[Douglas]

If I remember rightly, the first plane comes at 10 rather than 25 and then it's just as Kamus says.

I'm waiting for Moorf to be the first to discover when the final plane comes. ;) :angel

And it's definitely not accompanied by "Hard Boiled Egg" status. :P

p.s. Raeven's daily postcounts are so high because she carried her postcount onto this forum from the old forum.

[toesonthenose]

Aloha to my fellow "mericans" on the board. I'm a long time lurker, and a first time poster. I am very blessed to be in Hawaii. With the exception of the cost of living, this place is great. I've been here over 10 years and until the past couple of years, I never thought I'd leave. But after a trip to NZ in March of 2003, I've had a feeling my days in the U.S. of A may be numbered. For many of the reasons already listed, Bush, superficial culture, etc. But my main reason is my 3 sons, while they are still young, I worry about what the future of american foreign policy holds for them. Will we invade and occupy Syria/Iran/Saudi Arabia? If the Iraqi's get democracy won't they vote to #1-throw out the USA, sans oil, and #2 vote to destroy Israel, and #3 require tremendous US military might to prevent numbers 1 and 2 from occuring. People criticize Bush for not having an exit strategy in Iraq, well of course not, because we were never planning on leaving. I worry that Dick Cheney is right, this will be a decades long struggle, especially if we want to spread democracy into the Muslim theocracies of the world. (Can anybody say "Crusades") I never met my father thanks to the Vietnam War, so I'm thinking of doing what Mel Gibson's father did, get his sons out of a potential draft. As Michael Moore asked Bill O'Reilly on Fox news, "Would you sacrifice your son to secure Fallujah?" Not me. When I was in NZ in 3/03, the war had just started, many Kiwis talked with me about the war. (They say they could tell I was an American by the way I walked!) Only 1 person I spoke with supported the war, most told me that we Americans should be satisfied with what we already have! Little did they know about being American! In the meantime I'll vote for Kerry, because I think there is a 10% less chance that he will attack Iran in the next 4 years. By the way, have any of you fellow Yanks seen that as a US citizen you must continue to file annual tax returns to the IRS, and have to pay tax on any foreign wages exceeding $80K per married couple. The US is the only country in the world that taxes its citizens on foreign earnings. Enough for now!

[Raeven]

p.s. Raeven's daily postcounts are so high because she carried her postcount onto this forum from the old forum.

LOL, Douglas, thanks for that clarification! I was briefly mortified to realize Dave was sitting there thinking, wow, she really does have no life!! Over 37 posts per day??

toesonthenose, welcome to the forum, and delighted you've joined the discussion! We share many of the same feelings about moving to NZ from the US. Like you, I presently live in a magical spot. I doubt I will live in as nice a place again -- including in NZ. But perfect weather and scenery are not everything, and some days I hear the news and feel like a caged animal. Just waiting for the house to sell and we're on our way. When do you expect you'll make the shift, and where are you thinking of landing?

Lots of people here in the US say this upcoming election is the most important of their lifetimes. I disagree. The last election was. But what is is, and now we must do what we can to put things to rights in the upcoming election. Personally, I don't have the problems with Kerry that you and others do.. he's a lot like Al Gore to me -- not terribly magnetic in the personality department, but the records speak for themselves -- if people bother to review them. Dedicated to public service, intellectual, not absolutely sure of their decisions. Sometimes tortured in communicating their positions. Unfortunately, many Americans view these traits as weakness or indecision.. it's a sad state of things when 'internal intellectual and moral struggle' translates to 'not electable because won't shoot from the hip.' But there it is.

Anyway, like Dave, I think I've blathered on enough about all this and I'm trying to give up posting to this thread! I was aware of the tax situation, and I found it even more interesting that the US does not have a reciprocal state-sponsored pension scheme with NZ.. I think it's the only major country that doesn't. I still have no real idea how this move affects my social security benefits (such as they are or will be)... not that it matters much. As the lady on the other end of the phone line said when I called the Social Security 800 number, "How come you're asking about all this now? By the time you reach retirement age, it will have all changed."

Ah-huh.

Hope to hear more from you, toesonthenose!

All the best, Rae

[kamus]

I was aware of the tax situation, and I found it even more interesting that the US does not have a reciprocal state-sponsored pension scheme with NZ..

All the best, Rae

What does that mean, Rae?

Thanks,

Dave

P.S. With 8 posts today I guess it means that I'm the one with no life! :laugh

[Raeven]

Hi, Dave,

I think it's great you average 8 posts a day.. you always have interesting things to say. And based on the things you say, it's clear you have a life -- a very interesting one, at that! NZ will be loser if they let you get away to Canada.

What I meant about NZ not having a reciprocal state-sponsored pension scheme was Social Security. If you emigrate from the UK, for example, NZ and the UK have an agreement such that you still can work out what you will receive from their state-sponsored pension schemes. It's different with the US, however. I already qualify to receive Social Security (god knows I've paid them enough over these 40+++ quarters!), but it is not clear how it all works between the 2 countries. I know that in NZ, you must work for 10 years, 5 of them past the age of 55 (if memory serves.. it's either 50 or 55) to qualify to receive their state-sponsored pension. I know too that their state-sponsored pension is offset by any other state-sponsored pension you receive from another country (read US Social Security). But I have no idea how all of that is worked out, or how they calculate the fluctuating exchange rate, or indeed how the US handles paying out your benefit when you live in another country -- and calling them up didn't clear it up a bit!! By the way, private pensions are exempt -- you can receive both the NZ state-sponsored retirement benefit and any private pension to which you are entitled with no problems.

Now, I'm not such an idiot that I'm planning my entire retirement based on receiving pauper's funds from either NZ or the US, but it's the principle of the thing, dammit. I've paid into it since practically before I had teeth! And it would be nice to know how my social security benefit is affected by my election to move abroad. So far, the only thing I've clearly worked out is that there is NOT a reciprocal agreement between the US and NZ, as there is between the UK and NZ. So it's not very much information really, is it? I do have a line on a great tax attorney.. ahhheerrrmmm... solicitor in NZ who specializes in tax and monetary exchange matters between the US and NZ. If you want his name and information, just drop me a PM and I'll send it along. The information was kindly provided by another poster from this site whom I've missed seeing around here lately!!

Hope this helps, Rae

[Annierobrigado]

[quote=Annierobrigado]
I think the levels change at 25, 50, 100, 250 and 500. Perhaps Karl will correct me if I'm wrong. So it's 250 eggs to be thoroughly good. Not an easy achievement either. I looked at Raeven's profile and it said something like 37.5 per day! I'm only good for 2.11 posts a day so I'm a real slacker by comparison.

Remember, when it comes to the coffee, I'm buying!

-Dave

yes dave, you can buy all the coffee you want. i'm going to bring over all the flavors of philippine coffee that are actually exported to the us and great britain. and then we can start a coffee shop!

gosh, raeven can post 37.5 replies a day? cough, cough. well, at least i posted about 5 or 6 already today. but i dont think i can do that everyday.
:no

annie

[jesselyn]

Hi, Dave,
I think it's great you average 8 posts a day.. you always have interesting things to say. And based on the things you say, it's clear you have a life -- a very interesting one, at that! NZ will be loser if they let you get away to Canada.


umm this made me guilty that i dont read the newspaper (except the entertainment section from time to time) and that i dont watch the news - the reason why i have nothing to share :(.

in my mind, i already have enough problems without adding the political situation and the heinous crimes that occur everyday. at this moment, not having enough savings for evidence of funds (for living expenses in NZ) is my biggest problem. i dont want to sell my stocks :no

anyways, dont mind me, im just giving an excuse why i cant relate... :oops:

jes :angel

[drumminj]

OK, OK, I'm so sorry!
I really have to apologise. I confess I've been using this thread as a sort of anger release therapy- it has felt good to preach to the choir for a change! Pity my poor wife who has to dutifully listen to me spout off like this every day. But I will make an effort to leave this thread alone from now on and concentrate on the positive matters more directly related to NZ itself.


Dave, I think we've all been using this thread for that reason, to some extent. No need to apologize. I find this thread interesting - it's good to be exposed to other's opinions. Especially when the people on this thread will be my countrymen (hopefully) on the other side of the world.

However, as I read this thread, and all the posts in the forums, I'm kind of scared at the number of people who are looking to move as "political refugees". I guess I just want most Americans to stay home, so I can enjoy NZ. If a bunch of Americans move there, they are certain to ruin all the things I like about it. Of course, I'm part of the problem as well.

Sigh :?

J

[justin.g.s]

Drumin dont sweat the cultural impact that us americans may have on NZ by being in NZ.

I read somewhere that @ 250 Americans succesfully immigrated there last year. IF 250 Americans can corrupt our NZ dream then god help us all.

Additionally I really don't think that that many of us are fleeing America, over political furstration, I imagine that most of us will continue to vote absentee as ex-pats.

I think the frustration that is being witnessed is the culmination of four years of alot of people saying to themselves. Winning the popluar vote and losing the election is just not fair.

Follow that up with four years of thinking, hey my guy wouldn't have made that mistake.

Try saying that to yourself four times a day for nearly 1500 straight days,
and it's not long before you'd be nearly blind with anger.

What if the exact same thing had happened to the Republican party four years ago? I fear we would still be a devided country.

Losing a close race, is profoundly disturbing. When it is close you tend to ask yourself alot of what if's.

If the question why are you leaving was posted 2 years ago, or 2 years from now politics as a reason for leaving would probably be a lower factor.

These are just my general observations.

[drumminj]

Justin, thanks for the reply.

I read somewhere that @ 250 Americans succesfully immigrated there last year. IF 250 Americans can corrupt our NZ dream then god help us all.

I would imagine that our culture is already a bit of a problem, whether there are americans there or not. Though I do agree - if 250 americans can make a huge difference, that's quite scary. But if Americans are bringing lots of money with them, they will have more influence.


Additionally I really don't think that that many of us are fleeing America, over political furstration, I imagine that most of us will continue to vote absentee as ex-pats.

This has come up earlier. Even if you are absentee voting, that doesn't mean you haven't fled to escape the political environment. Besides, is it fair to have a say in the government when you aren't directly affected by its actions? I think I've come to the opinion that I really have no place doing so, if I'm not going to be living there (nor plan to anytime in the immediate future).


I think the frustration that is being witnessed is the culmination of four years of alot of people saying to themselves. Winning the popluar vote and losing the election is just not fair.

Follow that up with four years of thinking, hey my guy wouldn't have made that mistake.

Try saying that to yourself four times a day for nearly 1500 straight days,
and it's not long before you'd be nearly blind with anger.

Well, hopefully I can say this without offending anyone. If you've been so hung up on Al Gore "winning" the popular vote (I think we'd need three recounts in every district to be able to say that as a fact or not) for the past 4 years, you really need to look at the bigger picture. Congress and local government affects your life much more than than the president of the United States. Under Gore, we may not have a war in Iraq, but it is very likely we would still have Diebold voting machines, the USA PATRIOT act, and all the other many many bad things in this country. I'm not trying to marginalize the harm the war in Iraq is doing to the world or our country, but there are many more issues we need to deal with at home.

Additionally, we're not a democracy. The popular vote doesn't matter. Hasn't ever mattered in this country. We are a republic, and have an electoral college. While your ideals may lead you to believe that a true democracy is better (I am not trying to debate whether it is or not), the Constitution did not set up our government in that way.

Hopefully I haven't awoken the sleeping giant that is Dave with this post. I just can't understand the Dems that are still hung up on the 2000 election.

And no, I'm not a republican.

Back to New Zealand - I've read articles about the NZIS marketing to Californians. Obviously they're trying to get more Americans to come to NZ - and bring their money. I'm afraid of the influence this money will have - rising housing costs, more businesses catering to "American" needs. I really hope I'm being too sensitive about this, but these are the things I'm hoping to be able to leave behind. Americans as a whole are pretty good people, but our culture flat out sucks in so many ways.

J

[Douglas]

Hi Justin, for a few years, including last year, we've been running at about 1,000 Americans a year becoming NZ permanent residents.

In terms of cultural influences, what people see on television is probably having a lot more influence than a few hundred individuals arriving from any particular country.

[justin.g.s]

Before I dedided to respong to your post, I walked into the kitchen and askedd myself.

" Justin, perhaps we should skip the swiss army pocket knife, and get the wife's top of the line can opener, to PROPERLY open this can of worms."

That being said, Drumminj, I am familiar with our electoral college system and how it functions. My point was more or less about the perception of our systems, not our constitutionally driven electoral process functions.

To adress the Al gore statement that echos my own personal sentiments on that topic. More I less I was trying to understand the views of the other party.


Justin internal dialogue continues......"UMMM this can of worms looks like an excellent vintage 68' or 69' perhaps."

So here it is I am a Republican. :eek :eek :eek

I have read most of the posts on this thread, and I did not want to jump into the buzz saw of dems bashing the current admin.

It is better to lie low at times and let everyone get things off there chest. It seemed as if things had cooled a little, the posts earlier were not exactly what the FOX network would call," Fair and Balanced." Pun intended :laugh :laugh

And come on do I really want to take on Dave in a political discussion?

Now if you want to get into how fishing for Sea Urchins of the Ca coast effects the coastal ecosytem I'm your guy.


My reply was rather "an attempt" to better understand my fellow man/women's arguments, frustration, anger... I tried to ask myself how would I feel if the shoe were on the other foot.

Which would have left me asking myself alot of what If's. Which you have rightly brought up war ect...

Douglass I agree that T.V and the Internet will have a vastly larger impact on NZ. America the product, is for the most part ubiquitous .

Not all Good, certainly not all bad. Except maybe that last worm

Oh, to answer the question of the topic why I am leaving. Look no further than my two sweet angels, were doing it for them

[drumminj]

Justin, I'm glad you clarified. As you can tell, I interpreted your post as saying that you had thought aboutthe 2000 election every day for the past four years.

I think we've done a good job just skirting this issue in this thread. I was worried about me having to take Dave on, not you. But hey, I can always use the backup.

Your points are very well taken, and make sense. I apologize for making assumptions about you and your political leanings. At least now I can move beyond the assumptions and rightly criticize you for being a Republican :laugh

To the topic of this (very long) thread, why is it you feel things will be better for your daughters in NZ? I can guess, but I'll stop making assumptions, for as they say....

J

[toesonthenose]

Justin g.s., I am also curious how you're moving to NZ helps your daughters. Politically, as a republican, you have most of the government in your corner, so I would expect with 4 more years of W, and no signs of loss of control of the House or Senate you would think the US was best for your daughters. My limited experience with NZ and friends in NZ leads me to believe that the oppurtunities in NZ for your daughters is not as plentiful as in the US. I am not trying to provoke anything, I believe you have your daughters best interest in mind.

[Annierobrigado]

[quote=Raeven]
umm this made me guilty that i dont read the newspaper (except the entertainment section from time to time) and that i dont watch the news - the reason why i have nothing to share :(.

in my mind, i already have enough problems without adding the political situation and the heinous crimes that occur everyday. at this moment, not having enough savings for evidence of funds (for living expenses in NZ) is my biggest problem. i dont want to sell my stocks :no

jes :angel

hi jes,

how can you want to read our newspaper, when all you read about are either senators bickering or congressmen having escort services or this and that! actually even the entertainment section is already boring these days, coz Kris aquino is quiet! :laugh :laugh

cheers
annie

[jesselyn]

annie! you made me laugh out loud here :laugh nowadays, only have time to watch amazing race. im always in front of the comp surfing my eyes out :uhoh

jes :angel

[justin.g.s]

Regardless of who wins the elections Bush of Kerry some facts about California won't change.

To give you a glimpse of what it like here. I just sold my house or $350k.
My girls are about to go into school, the schools in this neighborhood are rife with gangs and drugs. Helicopters buzz over my house DAILY in search of crooks.

My best freind lives in a $800k home in sherman oaks, the high school that his kids would attend(public) had 3 gand drive by shootings last year.

The weather is great here, and with over 10 million people here, it can take 2.5 hours during traffic to drive 30- miles in peak traffic.

With that many people on the roads the sky is so polluted that the base of our local mountains @ 30 miles away, are visible only a few days of the year.

The runoff from our storm during winter pumps sewage from strained sewage facilites into our local beaches, along with hypodermic needles, improperly disposed oil, and a million other toxic substances.

The great surf beach from the 60's in Huntington Beach is closed due to toxic levels of pollutants more than it is open.

I can go on and on about why NZ looks a wee bit better than so Cal.

Sure, you can work your tail off make a million bucks, never see your family, and live in a gated community in denial of what the average joe is like here, BUT WHY?

[veronica]

I can understand those reasons, where you headed for when you get here

[toesonthenose]

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Socal. I left there in 1994, and I'm sure it has only gotten worse. I think you are making a wise choice.

[Annierobrigado]

annie! you made me laugh out loud here :laugh nowadays, only have time to watch amazing race. im always in front of the comp surfing my eyes out :uhoh

jes :angel

hi jes

me too! although i have to compete with my kids for internet time... my time alone with the computer is at the office (when it's not being used :yes )

amazing race -- they've been to Cavite and i didn't see them? gosh.

annie

[jesselyn]

:eek ive seen it 3x :mrgreen:

no worries annie - i think there are re-runs (did i say that correctly? :? ) in studio 23 or maybe axn (scratches head) . its now past 12am. dont forget to watch later the 2hr season finale :yes :nice1

jes :angel

[Annierobrigado]

jes

what i missed was the new zealand run. sayang!

annie

[justin.g.s]

Hard to tell exactly where we are headed, I am a farm boy at heart. Job wise will keep us near Auckland I presume. We are going over on monday for a three wek tour to scope out the area, for sure north island, we will check out hamilton, taurunga and a few others. Clevedon outside of Auckland looks great, but may be too pricey.

And I would guess that since 94' things have changed. In 95' you could have bought a house in Huntingon Beach for $350, they are now going for 1M+

[kamus]

Hopefully I haven't awoken the sleeping giant that is Dave with this post.

<snoring: zzzzzz....snorts suddenly...jolts upright in bed> :eek

Hey, as divisive as we Americans are supposed to be, there's no way we could get as rowdy as the British counterpart to this thread which was recently locked with many, presumably inapproprate, posts deleted!:yes

In fact, I'm pretty sure that we here agree on much more than we disagree: we think NZ offers us a good chance of experiencing some improvements in the quality of life that otherwise might be difficult to achieve in the US. We expect that our kids will thrive in a less toxic atmosphere, both literarily and figuratively speaking. And we hope we can trade in the hopelessly polarized political discourse we experience in the US for a more civilised debate, where people can still disagree with each other without calling each other's patriotism into question. We used to be able to do that in the US.

I also don't think any of us here are contemplating a move to NZ so we can get rich or buy a bigger SUV. No, I feel much more kinship with all the contributors on this thread than I do with the many of the Americans I deal with on a day-to-day basis.

So really, there's no need for any of us to take permanently ossified positions on any of the issues that have been raised on this thread thus far. All of the points view as yet expressed have had at least some logical merit to them and have been civilly presented. The issues involved are utterly debatable with facts and figures available to bolster either side with no hope of a definitive answer as to "who's right" on the horizon.

Case in point is the 2000 election alluded to in J's post. I think the election was stolen and I do think it's a big deal not so much because Gore (another loser in my book) didn't get elected, but more for what it says about the breakdown of democracy and the political system in the US.

Can I definitively prove any of my allegations?: no, at least not without resorting to Occam's Razor. So, having had my little say on this issue and others, obviously I feel that I'm right but I absolutely leave open the possibilty that history will prove me a fool- in fact, I hope it does, for I'm not too optimistic about the long term prospects for people in America and for the people around the world whose lives may be seriously disrupted by the global consequences of America's action or inaction on a host of issues.

Truth should always trump ideology, and if that notion were more in vogue today in the US, I might not be so eager to leave.

I'd like to clear up one small possible misconception before I wind this sucker down: yep,I may lean to the left but I am not a democrat: my disgust for the Democrats is only slightly surpassed by my contempt for the Republicans and a very special selection of bile is exclusively reserved for the Bush administration and for a policy that purports to "export democracy" to the world and yet fails to exercise its fundamental precepts at home.

I believe they drive on the left in NZ-sounds like the place for me!

Looking back on the above thoughts I have to say, sheesh, it's frightening how easily I can fall into a rant!

OK, I swore I wasn't going to get drawn into this thread but once again, I just couldn't help it. It's the thread that wouldn't die!:uhoh

Long live the thread!

Looking forward to buying you all a pint of something in NZ sometime. I hope all our kids end up playing in the same park:nice1

Cheers!

Dave

I'm feeling sleepy...so sleepy...so sle zzzzzzzzzz

[Pakeha Boy]

Jug Dave, in NZ, you buy a jug.
This has been great reading you guys. I wouldn't dream of trying to match your arguments for and against here but one thing is for sure, if some rich yank is going to put his hand in his pocket and shout a few jugs, then I'll do my damndest to help you drink it.
The kids can play in the park over the road while we set the world straight over a game of pool (NZ rules tho:2 shots don't carry, shoot up the table from behind the D, and nominate your black pocket!)

This should be a new thread in its own right, but DB (Dominion Breweries) is the beer to have in your jug, as far as I'm concerned, 'course them ol' pig islanders (read South Islanders) will argue for Speights.....
Get your asses over to Aoteroa, I'll think you'll fit in fine.... :nice1

[jesselyn]

what i missed was the new zealand run. sayang!


sorry to hear that - hugs... oh annie! it was great - they went to auckland. nephew saw it; he said he wants to try the big rolling ball (umm i dunno the name) when we are already in NZ :yes

jes :angel

[kamus]

Jug Dave, in NZ, you buy a jug.


Jug it is, then! Thanks for setting me straight-I'll fit in in no time with the correct coaching :nice1

-Dave

[Raeven]

Hey, Dave,

Where've you been? How are you plans coming along? We're keen to hear how you're progressing!!

All the best, Rae

[jesselyn]

amazing race -- they've been to Cavite and i didn't see them? gosh.


annie? are you from Cavite?

jes :angel

[Lil]

Those of you who will be needing a Mexican food fix see here:http://www.aji.co.nz/

[drumminj]

Should I fan the flames in here?? Anyone hear about the house bill to limit the Supreme Court's ability to rule on whether the addition of "Under God" in the pledge is unconstitutional?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040923/ap_on_go_co/congress_pledge_of_allegiance

Just "election-year politics". Blegh. Should be considered treasonous.

I think I'm just going to close my eyes, stick my fingers in my ears, and just hope it all goes away. :wah

J

[jesselyn]

Those of you who will be needing a Mexican food fix see here:http://www.aji.co.nz/

wow! this will solve the craving for mexican food :clap
thanks lil :nice1

jes :angel

[kamus]

Hey Rae, thanks for asking!

Actually we are in a bit of a glum holding pattern with no clear way forward. We are considering LTBV, student Visas, SMC and Talent possibilities. Unfortunately we have run into serious obstacles with all of them:

LTBV- NZIS apparently is very leery of self employed businesses from what we've heard although Veronica and her hubby are a happy exception to this. The other drawback is that it takes a very long time.

Student Visas- we could definitely go this route, however, being a student does little to improve your chances of PR. Your points will increase for gaininganother qualification and study in NZ but you're basically gambling and for us it would probably mean selling up in the US with no firm promise of eventual PR. It would give us a foothold however.

SMC- Because most of my pretty extensive training was with private teachers, I have no recognized qualification as far as NZIS is concerned. My wife does have a degree, but in French Lit. and the jobs for that qualification are not exactly flying off the shelf. She is a top flight violinist but apparently NZIS wants you to get a job related to your qualification. A shame, because musicians and those that generally hire them care little for pieces of paper- we're more accustomed to demonstrating our qualifications in real time :?

Talent- another difficult route for us. In OZ it would be no problem (we just don't want to go there) but characteristically, NZIS has set a very high bar. The main difficulty being that one has to find a recognized arts group that will sponsor you and be willing to undertake a minimum financial liability of $24,000 NZ to guarantee support for two years. We're looking around but the prospects look dim.

Our best shot seems to be LTBV but it seems a pretty long shot at the moment. If we're desperate enough, we can do the student thing but the prospect of leaping forward with no safety net when we have two small daughters is a daunting one indeed!

What is your own situation(s)?

[kamus]

Should I fan the flames in here?? Anyone hear about the house bill to limit the Supreme Court's ability to rule on whether the addition of "Under God" in the pledge is unconstitutional?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040923/ap_on_go_co/congress_pledge_of_allegiance

Just "election-year politics". Blegh. Should be considered treasonous.

I think I'm just going to close my eyes, stick my fingers in my ears, and just hope it all goes away. :wah

J
I did hear about this. The one that got my goat yesterday (and these outrages continue on a daily basis) was the report on CNN reporting that the GOP is putting out a mass mailing in some southern states claiming that "liberals want to ban the Bible" !!!!

This is the nastiest campaign I have ever witnessed. And the President seems not to be above it either when he misquotes Kerry:

Bush stated that Kerry had said earlier in the week ''he would prefer the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein to the situation in Iraq today.'' The line drew gasps of surprise from Bush's audience in a Racine, Wis., park. ''I just strongly disagree,'' the president said.

But Kerry never said that. In a speech at New York University on Monday, he called Hussein ''a brutal dictator who deserves his own special place in hell.'' He added, ``The satisfaction we take in his downfall does not hide this fact: We have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less secure.''

IMO this "spin" by the POTUS crosses the line and is in fact an ugly bald faced lie.

I'm gonna start stuffing my ears too, J
:?

-Dave

[drumminj]

Wow, Dave, that is pretty shady. Unfortunately, both sides have their PR machines to spin things.

I think I came up with a better solution than sticking my fingers in my ears. I'm just going to spend the time between now and the election drunk and stupid. I think it'll be more fun :laugh

J

[Annierobrigado]

annie? are you from Cavite?

jes :angel

actually am from laguna but i work in dasmarinas, cavite. the amazing race i think went to zapote? familiar sights.

:cool

annie

[Annierobrigado]

Should I fan the flames in here?? Anyone hear about the house bill to limit the Supreme Court's ability to rule on whether the addition of "Under God" in the pledge is unconstitutional?

J

hi J,

just an asian's opinion on US policies. It's downright scary that americans (well, those who think they have the right) would try to erase God from anything and everything American, right from changing your pledge of allegiance to not saying prayers in elementary and high schools to changing "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays" just so you don't offend those who don't believe in Christ. Please, tell me that you don't consider God (or Yahweh or whoever you call HIm) just another politically incorrect issue in your politically correct lives? Because if 9-11 happens again right in middle america, who you gonna call? the ghostbusters? Neo? the Tin man?

Those of you who wish to live in NZ away from the seemingly incoherent chaos of American omnipresence, I just hope you bring whatever faith you've learned around your family table and continue this throughout the generations that you will start in NZ. We are not alone in this world, and this world will not last forever. We need a higher Power to help us ward off the evils of this world, because man cannot do it alone.

okay, enough said, who wants to share a Cadbury's? Milk chocolate? Hazelnut? Please? :yes

Cheers
annie

[kamus]

It's downright scary that americans (well, those who think they have the right) would try to erase God from anything and everything American, right from changing your pledge of allegiance to not saying prayers in elementary and high schools to changing "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays" just so you don't offend those who don't believe in Christ. Please, tell me that you don't consider God (or Yahweh or whoever you call HIm) just another politically incorrect issue in your politically correct lives? Because if 9-11 happens again right in middle america, who you gonna call? the ghostbusters? Neo? the Tin man?

Those of you who wish to live in NZ away from the seemingly incoherent chaos of American omnipresence, I just hope you bring whatever faith you've learned around your family table and continue this throughout the generations that you will start in NZ. We are not alone in this world, and this world will not last forever. We need a higher Power to help us ward off the evils of this world, because man cannot do it alone.



Wow, I hardly know where to begin Annie. What's scary to me is the underlying attitude behind your post. Obviously, you are a person of faith who feels strongly about Christ and that should be your right and perogative wherever you choose to live. However, I must take issue with some of your statements:

The real debate in the US is not about "political correctness". That's a term used to obscure the central issue which one of separation of Church and State. This is a very important principle; one which is mandated in the US constitution. It's important to remember that the framers of the constitution were Christians themselves but they felt it essential to establish a secular state precisely because they wanted to establish a true religious freedom in the US. As you may remember, many of the original colonists had fled the religious persecution in England for the sanctuary of America.

They were aware, as we are now, that the erosion of that very necessary separation has lead to monumental suffering throughout history. The Crusades, The Holocaust, the stifling repressions of the Taliban, the Inquisition, the atrocities of Serbia, Kosovo and now Darfur- you want more examples? I could easily fill this page!

Once people decide that there religious beliefs are more "valid" than others and they have the military machinery of state behind them, all manner of mischief can and usually does ensue.

People in the US are much more afraid of letting the so called "Moral Majority" or right wing Christian fundamentalists hold any more power than they already do. Their influence grows daily and it's no small matter of concern to those of us that care about this issue that they look to GWB as much as an evangelistic leader who supports their cause as much as they see him as a purely political figure.

The people that do care about these issues aren't so concerned about the comparatively trivial matter of whether the word "God" is mentioned in the pledge of allegiance, but they are concerned about the incremental chipping away of that separation, sending us down the proverbial slippery slope. The slope has gotten pretty slippery in some southern states already, with the teaching of "Creationism" and the commensurate shunning of the Theory of Evolution. Another example in history that is rich with examples of government under theocratic pressure suppressing science in favour of dogma.

As far as your statement "Please, tell me that you don't consider God (or Yahweh or whoever you call Him) just another politically incorrect issue in your politically correct lives?"

There are a lot of people-smart ones at that, who are either agnostic or don't believe in God, as is their right Your incredulous statement seems to imply that you don't have time for people who hold these views and that notion is abhorrent to anyone who believes that religious freedom should include the freedom not to believe in God. (And who says it's a "Him" anyway?)

Even if was just about "political correctness"- why would you want to offend, even if unwittingly, anyone when it could be so easily avoided? You may not realize it but your attitude, frankly, is a dangerous one and implies a religious chauvinism.

I really can't imagine by what you mean when in reference to 9/11 you state: "Because if 9-11 happens again right in middle america, who you gonna call? the ghostbusters? Neo? the Tin man?"

Again, Annie you may call on Christ, God or whomever but it's absurd to suggest that being "politically correct" or caring about maintaining a secular state obviates the participation of God in the aftermath of a tragedy like 9-11. Or maybe I just misunderstand you.

I'm reminded of the true story of a woman who had survived the horror of Hiroshima who when asked why she survived she said "because of the love of God" which just begged the question of why God didn't love the other 87,000 men women and children who perished in the conflagration. God seems to be pretty indiscriminate when it comes to disasters, natural or man-made.

"We are not alone in this world, and this world will not last forever. We need a higher Power to help us ward off the evils of this world, because man cannot do it alone."

You seem like a very nice person, Annie- but this is just your opinion, not a fact, and many intelligent people would take issue with that statement especially the part about Man doing it alone. The evils of the world are perpetrated by men and the evils of the world are and must be rectified by other men. To trust or wait for a God to intervene and save us is a dangerous course of action. We created the mess- we have to clean it up. Maybe God (if he exists) can help out, but in the meantime it's left to us. We can do that while praying to God or not believing in God as the case may be. But one thing is clear, making value judgments about other people's beliefs and endorsing theocracy and condemning those who believe in the separation of Church and State is one step closer to increasing the evil in the world, not reducing it.

I hope you understand that we must all exercise tolerance of those that hold views that differ from our own especially if one wants to successfully integrate oneself into the secular poly-cultural society that is NZ.

And aren't tolerance and inclusion Christian principles?

I hope I haven't offended you, as I said before, I know from your other posts that you are a warm and caring person, but I couldn't let your statements remain unchallenged.

I'm aware that any discussion of religion is a potential minefield. If the discussion continues, lets hope we all tread respectfully and gently.

Thanks

-Dave

[coastcat]

Dave pretty well summed up my views on the subject. But I also want to point out that the original Pledge of Allegiance (written in 1892) did not contain the line "under God". That was added in 1954 as the result of campaigning by a Christian organization.

I'm a firm believer in the separation of church and state, and frankly my biggest reason for wanting to leave the US is because of the strong (and still growing) influence of fundamentalist Christians on government policy. I choose to live in a democracy, not a theocracy.

[miep]

Go Dave! You have no idea how nice it is when someone else puts into words what you are thinking but much more eloquently than I ever could.

In my view the separation of church and state is the only way to go, the only chance of being tolerant toward any relegion or lack thereof.

[veronica]

hmmm Dave , when you start your political party let me know which one it is cos I may well be tempted to vote for you.
I am not a believer at all but I would reckon I am more honest and caring than many a christian I have met. I dont have any issues with others beliefs and wouldn't want them to have with my lack of.
It's whatever floats your boat.

[Raeven]

Hi, Dave,

I must add my agreement to all you said, and so eloquently, as well. I admire your courage in saying it, too. You rock!!

Religious beliefs (or non-beliefs) are highly personal. No one has the right to call into question what belief system works for any individual, provided it does not harm or hurt themselves or others. The whole point of a secular system of government is to ensure everyone retains this precious right. When you start requiring citizens to hold -- or not hold -- a particular set of religious beliefs, then you may as well be in Iran, Communist China or the former Soviet Union, where people have or had to fear holding the systems of belief most meaningful to them.

Many views held by individuals, including many who proudly wear the label 'Christian', I find personally abhorrent. But I would defend to the death their right to hold them. It is not about the view; it's about the freedom to have that view.

Dave said it far better than I ever could, so I'll let his post stand as my own opinion on the subject. It's great to have you on the forum, Annie, and as Dave said, it's clear you are a caring person. But I personally believe the truest test of being a caring person is tolerance for others and their perspectives -- even if you can't relate to or believe in what they're talking about at all. You don't have to believe it yourself. But if you can at least hear what they have to say, your own world is immeasurably enriched. I sincerely hope you are able to find that tolerance in dealing with folks who hold different beliefs than you.

All the best, Rae

[drumminj]

Dave, you are scaring me. How is it that I can agree with you so? :clap Very well put.

And I agree - Annie, you have shown that you are a warm and caring person, so please don't take any of this as a personal attack.

Sure, some may believe in the Christian "God"....others call the same god by a different name. Others believe in multiple gods. Some don't believe in any. To add a phrase to a pledge that is mandated by a government institution (US public schools) to seperate us from the "godless communists" (yes, this is why it was added. coastcat is right) that marginalizes the beliefs of many, and seems to validate the beliefs of a select group, is a big no-no in the US. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and transcends "political correctnes" and the will of the majority. It is intended to maintain a civil, democratic society and protect the rights of everyone, including those in the minority.

It will be very difficult for me to move to some place that doesn't value the same principles. This is the scariest part of immigrating for me. Has anyone else thought about this, and share the same concerns?

J

[clg]

I have to jump on the good post Dave Bandwagon too! I am also very encouraged to see all of the posts agreeing with him. This only makes me want to make the move sooner!

[Raeven]

Hi, J,

I have the same concerns to some extent. We take our personal freedoms very much for granted here in the States, almost like breathing or blinking, and while I believe NZ basically subscribes to a laissez-faire style of government, I'm sure we're in for a few shocks. Maybe not. I just don't know.

Does NZ have a document analagous to the US Constitution's Bill of Rights? Probably not; they're still hashing out the monarchy v. republic debate, aren't they? Do they need one to guarantee the same freedoms and rights to their citizens? I'd love to be better educated about all this and would welcome the views of anyone who can shed some light.

Still, I'm not especially nervous about this issue as regards moving there, as my husband is the most free-speaking person I know -- as are most Kiwis I've run across. But understanding the state of the law in this regard would be very useful!!

All the best, Rae

[drumminj]

I have to jump on the good post Dave Bandwagon too! I am also very encouraged to see all of the posts agreeing with him. This only makes me want to make the move sooner!

I think I understand, but I have to ask. Most of the people posting in this thread are still in the US. You're so encouraged that you want to get away from us as quickly as possible? Or is it that you're glad to see that the Americans who are looking to move to NZ have their heads screwed on pretty tightly? If the latter, I agree. It is good to see that it seems to be the Americans that get "it" that are looking to move to the other side of the world.

J

[drumminj]

Rae, I guess my concerns aren't about what day to day life is about. Sure, the Kiwis may be very open-minded, and may subscribe to the same ideals in general. But there's a lot to be said for having it be a core value of the country, something you're taught early in school, and something you can take for granted.

In my mind, there's a big difference between believing something is a basic right endowed by one's creator versus something the majority of the lawmakers decided to vote in favor of. The result, as it affects your daily life, may be the same, but the reasoning behind it says a lot, and I think affects the mindset and values of the population. I suppose we'll see about that. I could very well be overly worried about nothing.

J

[Diny]

I have read this thread with immense interest. I am a Brit - still in England (moving to the Manawatu christmas/new year), and I almost feel as though I'm intruding a little by adding my comments.

However, I feel I just have to tell you. This thread, all 11+ pages of it, have been a real eye opener.

Thanks to the media it is so easy for the rest of the world to perceive Americans as a race of size 8 plastic women with Barbie doll haircuts, perfect teeth living in the American dream house with a white pickett fence. The men are so often portrayed as cigar chewing oil magnates with crew cut hairstyles and a 'gunsmoke and horseshit' attitude. I am not saying this was my opinion - but the 'mental image' we could so easily be lead to believe as true.

Anybody wanting to get to know the real voice of America should log onto this thread. The opinions, beliefs and experiences of the people who post here have blown any pre-conceived ideas that may have been floating around clean out of the water.

Not wishing to be sycophantic - just stating the truth - the intellect and honesty of people like Raeven and Kamus (to name just 2) leaves me in total awe. Please keep the posts coming. An insight into US life and politics put in 'everyday' terms is far more interesteing and informative than reading about it in the broad sheets.

I hope any comments in this thread have not offended anybody, I just wanted to say that you guys have missed your vocation in life ..... you should be Offiial USA Embassadors. Well done to you all.

Diny

[clg]

J,

What I meant was I am glad the people thinking about NZ have their heads on right! I see it as a big plus that the people also considering this move seem to have simmilar views. Just looking forward to getting there!

[Annierobrigado]

hello all

i do care, which is why i thank you for all your opinions and replies to the first message i wrote. i do recognize the fact that religion is a personal thing, and yes, all of you have your own thing, i wasnt trying to tell you to be christian like me, no. that's the farthest thing from my mind! i don't like it anymore than you that some person would tell me who and what to believe.

anyway, i really am not a deep reader and analyst of anything american, so maybe i didnt get the message about the "under God" thing. actually, even here in the philippines, which is a predominantly catholic country, we strive to have the separation of the church and state, although yes, the Archbishop of Manila is a very influential person, with regards policies that has to do with life and people. I can't start expounding on this, this is not my field, but all i'm saying is maybe we (everyone in the world, not just one country) should try to practice our values to the fullest, and even those whose responsibility is to serve the nation, to do what is right and not just what is legal.

i am not prejudiced against those who arent of the same faith as i am. i couldnt do that, i am in no position whatsoever. but pardon me dave, j, rae, i just am glad i don't live in the us, nor am i an american. it's so confusing there! :no

thanks again for your enlightenment. i kinda feel chastised, but that'll blow over. i always defer to my elders you know ;) ;)

peace!
annie

[Raeven]

Hi, Annie,

Please don't feel chastized! I promise you, no one here wants you to feel that way. As we all know, these are issues deeply felt and the strong feelings come out. Your views are what you think and feel, and I'm glad you shared them with us.

I certainly agree with you that it's confusing to be an American at the moment! And I also agree with you that we should all try to serve our nations in the best way we can and to do what's right within our own value system. If we collectively bring our strengths to NZ along with a commitment to do what's right there, then NZ will be a pretty fine place to live, I think.

Thanks for sharing your feelings!

All the best, Rae

[kamus]

Dear Annie,
Please do not feel chastised- I was merely pointing out a common misunderstanding that you and many other intelligent people share especially here in the US- that there is a confusion between the "political correctness" argument- which is commonly used as a ploy to attack those who defend the separation of church and state- and the other argument which deplores any steps, baby or otherwise, towards a theocracy. If I came on a little strong, it was not so much directed towards you as to issue itself, which is an important one in the US, and one I'm quite passionate about. Sometimes it's just hard for me to get down from the soapbox! :yes

I'm genuinely sorry if I/we made you feel uncomfortable-you are our valued friend and we are just discussing stuff here. The people on this forum, as I'm sure you know by now, are a smart, caring bunch and no-one is out to attack anyone or make anyone feel bad least of all me, so I hope you'll accept my apology if that was the case. :angel

The forum is a place that welcomes all views and by its public nature anything posted is fair game for comment and scrutiny. We can all learn from one another here-I certainly have- and that's the beauty of the forum!

Thanks, and I'm glad you brought the issue up as it was very germane to the topic here-why Americans want to leave the US, and while it's not necessarily at the top of my list, it's certainly on the list.


your friend, Dave

[Annierobrigado]

thanks :yes :yes to everyone

you're all very kind, and passionate about what you feel and believe. i admire people who are like that, and i definitely would like to continue sharing with you guys anything and everything under the sun, even a cup of coffee and a cadbury bar! i really learn a lot, and what is the use of the forum if not to learn something?

to be honest, I feel :oops: because you all have your views and beliefs already formed, because you've studied and learned and read about issues that are important, and not just because they affect you in some way. I confess i have a kind of lopsided view about things, especially about the US, which is wrong, because I only know what the media tells me! It comes out sometimes, please excuse that.

I know NZ would be a better place because people like you will bring what is best not only for yourselves but for other people who may not always think like you and agree with you but can always live with and learn from you wherever we all may be. i think that is what everyone wishes for everyone anyway.

So I don't feel chastised anymore :D I told you, it'll blow over very quickly! I just can't wait to finally meet you all in person! Our Sunday picnics would sure be fun!

to us : cheers! :nice1 :nice1

annie

[Pakeha Boy]

Amen to that! :nice1