[coastcat]

The thread seeking ideas for US-specific emigrant advice has meandered a bit into political theory, so why not a new thread just for this topic?

Like Rae, I didn't want to get into my political reasons for leaving because I didn't want to offend those with opposite views. However, it seems that unless there are some annoyed-but-silent lurkers, we're all more or less on the same page. Would a conservative fundamentalist even be interested in emigrating, let alone to a sheep-infested country that didn't support the second Iraq war? :P

My husband posed a question recently... are we doing the right thing by leaving, or are we being cowards? If we leave, aren't we just tipping the balance ever so slightly more in the favor of conservative extremists? But if we're that uncomfortable living in what our society is becoming, isn't it much better for us to leave? Do we stay and strive to change things, or do we cut our losses and escape?

Who's to say that New Zealand won't trend towards a conservative government? It seems less likely - take a look at the party descriptions here (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Political_parties_in_New_Zealand) and you'll see that most parties are basically centrist with a lean in either direction. But it's always possible.

[drumminj]

I didn't mind this all going on in the other thread - makes me look important to have a 6-page thread that I started :)

You raise a very good question. I don't know if I have a good answer. I suppose it's taking the easy way out to just leave. But it's quite a complicated issue.

For me, I think I will always be part of the minority in the US. And, with the trend of more power going to the federal government, I'll always be marginalized. I don't see any way to change that, short of a revolution. How does one take power back from the federal government?

[edit: by minority, I don't mean racially or ethnically. More as in my beliefs and such]

If the federal gov't didn't have tax dollars to hold over the state governments, forcing them to enact laws in order to qualify for road funds and such (example: drinking age), then each state could actually decide for themselves what's most important, and adopt laws relevant to their style of life. Legislating morality is wrong to begin with, IMO (unless it's necessary for a civil society..but then it's not about morality, but forming a stable society)...but trying to do it at a federal level is just silliness.

The steps I feel need to be taken are 1) give the power back to local governments. Fed only needs power to regulate interstate commerce and provide national defense (sure, other little things are included - FCC and such), 2) find a way to get rid of "career politicians", 3) Get rid of corporate contributions to politicians, 4) Have a plague that kills all the stupid people in this country.

The chances of any of those happening in my lifetime are slim to none. So I"m gonna take off and go enjoy my life elsewhere. Hopefully.

J

[SoCal Gal]

I have to chime in on this one (who can tell I am not busy today?!) but I am not nearly as eloquent as the previous writers. We too have wondered the same things about leaving, are we tipping the scales in favor of even more conservative policies here at home? Well, 'they' did their job, they scared me to death to hear an airplane fly over. We live 15 minutes from a nuclear plant, and one hour from the biggest Swiss Cheese factory, also known as the Long Beach Port Authority, and if driving over the bridge to San Pedro doesn't scare the $%^& out of anyone, I don't know what would. Millions, literally millions, of containers below in such a maze, and you know that something awful could be lurking within so easily. Last night we watched a bit of the RNC until we were both so sick and angry, yelling at the TV and ultimately each other, that my husband and I had to take a break and go get some icecream for our frazzled brains. I don't know what to do some days. I mean, here we are with a nice house and a nice job and friends and family, but with eyes wide open to all that is going on. So, goodbye house, goodbye yard I have worked so long in, goodbye and thank you GWB for nothing.....and I hope I don't have to worry about being put on a No-Fly list fior writing this and not be able to leave! :-(

[Raeven]

Very provocative comments from everyone.

I have found it cathartic to an extent just to be able to share my thoughts with those of you who care to read it, and I am heartened to hear I'm not alone in my concerns. And Mark, thank you for saying it made you happy to hear what's been expressed on the other original thread, because it means a lot to me to show others abroad that not all Americans are red-necked bozos who talk too loud in restaurants and have the IQ of tepid Koolaid.

I haven't thought too much about the coward question because believe it or not, my political beliefs have not had a lot to do with our decision to move. It's simply that my husband wants to go home after being away from NZ for 25 years. But there is no way I will abdicate my responsibility as a US citizen... I will continue to vote in every election (on a paper absentee ballot, thank you very much!!), and I will keep up with American issues. Meantime, like J, I hope to create and live a life more in keeping with my own belief system. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Hmmmm, about that plague... I dunno, I'm afraid I'd lose a lot of friends and family. When I attempted to discuss with my Ditto-head father the hypocrisy of a government that embeds media people with its troops so we, the American people, can have the ultimate eye on the so-called War on Terror (read war in Iraq) but then refuses to grant access to those same media folks so they might film the returning containers of young Americans who died in the fighting, he folded his arms and refused to speak further on the matter. Somehow, I wasn't consoled by this response.

Rae

[SoCal Gal]

Rae, I got 'into it' with my dad about 6 weeks ago on a similar vein, we didn't talk for a month.... :-( our daddies :-(

[kamus]

Well I've already blathered on a bit on the other thread but the question raised about being cowards is an interesting one. I was actually branded by someone on a political thread I started on Monkeyfilter (http://monkeyfilter.com/link.php/4288) as a "shameless coward" for deserting the US so I've had a chance to reflect on that charge.

Basically, I defended myself by pointing out the political activism I've already engaged in- petitions, protests, letters to congress, contributions to candidates, contributions to PACs etc, I drive a hybrid car and try to live a enrgy conservative life- in short, I have been actively been trying to do something about the situation here and I've been doing it for four years. I feel betrayed by a society that promotes "freedom" and yet finds ways to deny due process to selected indivuals at the government's whim. I feel betrayed by the idealistic zeal by which "democracy" is promoted in the middle east and yet multiple and glaring instances of potential voter fraud are being ignored in Florida (amongst others)-again!!

No, I believe that government is there to serve the people and not vice-versa and this government is most definitely not serving me or my family and so I'm looking for one that will and NZ has come in at the top of the list.

Another important consideration is America's fatal dependence on oil. If you are familiar with Hubbert's Peak (http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Introduction.html) you know that not only is the oil going to run out within our lifetime but that tremendous economic and social upheaval will occur in the wake of reaching the peak of production- and this is not some leftwing scaremongering here either- there was a Pentagon report that was leaked that states just that-I'll try to dredge up the link if anyone's interested.

There is an informed consensus among industry experts that says we may be right at that point now with US ight crude expected to go over $50 a barrel perhaps this week with no end in sight. US and China's demand is a steeply rising graph whereas oil experts state that world production is at 99% of capacity. All it would take would be a disruption in the flow of oil- a pipeline bombed, political instabiltiy in Venezuela and the oil market will implode.

For the US, which relies almost exclusively on oil, this will be an economic and social disaster. My own feeling is that something resembling the status quo can perhaps be maintained for 10 years at the most and after that, the effluvium will hit the cooling propellor.

Contrast that with NZ where 75% of the nation's electricity is generated by renewable sources and where the government is moving even more aggressively towards self suffiency then the decision of where you want to be (or where you want your kids to be) when the oil runs out is a total no-brainer.

No I'm no coward, but I'm not stupid enough to go down with a sinking ship either.

I just hope NZ will have us. We're still researching the best way to apply and we're feeling increasingly anxious about getting out of the US-shameless cowards that we are.:mrgreen:

-Dave

[coastcat]

Rae, I got 'into it' with my dad about 6 weeks ago on a similar vein, we didn't talk for a month.... :-( our daddies :-(

My father is also a registered Republican (and retired defense contractor), but in reality he's simply a pragmatic person. He votes for whoever is less likely to make a mess of things. For the last few elections, he's been voting for Mickey Mouse as a write-in candidate. :laugh

I'd be interested to hear everyone's non-political reasons for leaving, too. We don't have to be completely controversial!

I'm curious who has made the decision to emigrate specifically because of NZ's allure, and who (like us) has made the decision to emigrate and after some research settled on NZ. (if NZ doesn't work out for us, we'll try Canada or, if we make the decision while still young enough, Australia)

[SoCal Gal]

Great post, Dave. Please provide that link if you can find it. One of the things that we just loved on our recent trip to NZ was that it truly is the "little things" that can add up. We passed a store that had a box of nice plastic coathangers out front, and I asked my friend what was going on, she said, oh, they do that here with the extra hangers. Imagine that! We often wonder what happened to the ecology movement of the 70's, and then the Earth Day thing, so why are we bombarded with adverts for disposable everything, did we suddenly get more room for landfills? Uh-oh, I didn't mean to start a rant. Please provide that oil/Pentagon link if you can find it. Thanks! :cool

[Raeven]

Hi, Dave,

I recently had the 'peak oil' discussion on another board.. am very familiar with it. Like you, the idea of living in a country that embraces renewable resources and has much less dependence on foreign oil than the USA is extremely attractive to me. As you pointed out, it is not some lunatic leftist fringe element putting forth the peak oil fear tactics.. all anyone needs to do is type the words 'peak oil' into the browser of their choice and it's enough to raise the hair on the back of your neck. (Anyone's neck -- even a red neck!! I crack myself up. :mrgreen: )

coastcat, as requested, non-political reasons for moving to NZ: We were going to retire there anyway. Hubby wants to go home and spend some years near his aging mother before it's too late. We have the opportunity to put ourselves ahead financially a few years and back in lifestyle a few years, too. We'll be able to afford a few acres to raise up some chickens, sheep, calves, and I can finally keep a horse or two. I love to garden, and I look forward to having a plot larger than an 8-track tape to do it on. More dogs and cats; no more nuclear power plant that's built on an earthquake fault 3 miles away!! Oh, and beer at lunch!! There you have it in a nutshell!!

Rae

[SoCal Gal]

Uh-oh, I hope people could understand that I meant the store had the hangers out front for people to take if they needed them! Sounded weird on the reread. My non-political reasons for going...my husband grew up in Southern California, and when we read on another post that it was like CA 'used to be' well, we got the fever. We love the outdoors here, the weather, the relaxed attitude...we do not love the pressure of tract houses nose to nose, huge SUVs clogging down the roads, and for me, as a woman, I don't particularly care for the hateful attitude of a lot of people about your looks being your best value. I am not a size 4 blonde with capped teeth and I am sick of being told for years that I am a loser if I don't aspire to be such. I am more than my looks and my possessions, thank you very much! Surfs up! :cool

[clg]

I have to chime in here as well. We are going for several reasons, the experience of living somwhere else and also because we are just a bit tired of how crowded CA has become. We really like the outdoors but it is getting harder and harder to enjoy it here because of the crowds. Of course the sad ironly here is that by going to NZ I am taking away some of the things I like so much about it by adding to the population!

I have also gotten tired of the lack of green here I would like more rain! Mostly, I think it will be a very hard but ultimatly rewarding experience. We could just stay here, buy more stuff get old and die but that just seems so boring. It will be a big finacial adjustment for us particualry since we are hoping my wife can stay at home for a while with our current and future children but we can tough it out for a few years (and So Cal real estate will help make it much easier too!). Leaving family behind will also be very hard.

The political side is an issue but I have found that the more disgusted I get about things here the more I just tune out. It just bothers me too much and I am frustrated that there is really nothing I can do.

Seems like there are several Californian's here, I am noticing a pattern. I also think we need to seriously contemplate how to fix NZ's Mexican food problem! I will have to make some additions to the menu thread. I have always dreamed about opening up a restaurant I just need to start working on the menu.

[kamus]

Here are a few pertinent links as promised:

An Article on the Pentagon Report (http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex41036.htm)

An analysis of Oil and Climate trends (http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/041304_climate_change_pt1.html) -this one has links to several articles regading the Pentagon report at the bottom.

A brief summary of the report (http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1153547,00.html) This one is from the highly respected British paper, the Guardian just in case you were beginning to suspect that these sources were merely left wing alarmist sites.

Why didn't you hear about this frightening report before? Because the US mainstream "free press" didn't bother to report it in the giddy rush to war, with dreams of embedded reporters and guaranteed high viewership/readership numbers dancing in their heads.

It's scary stuff and it's completely plausible and even likely and it's the number one reason we want to move as the US is doing nothing about this, being distracted with such short term concerns such as getting GWB reelected.

Aside from that, our non-political reasons for moving?: NZ is beautiful and largely unspoiled, the people I've met from NZ have been uniformly great (small sampling, admittedly), the government seems quite sensible and last but not least, being a Scotsman, I happen to like sheep- lots and lots of sheep! :clap

Dave

[karltsmith]

As an expat Brit I must say I have found this thread extremely interesting! We only ever hear what the media wants us to hear and to hear you all expressing such deeply held views on the turbulent world of American politics is facinating! I can't pretend to undestand all the nuances of your political system but I can appreciate how you can easily feel marginalised within the political machine.

On world environmental issues I must say my opinion of America (not Americans) changed for the worse when it didn't embrace the Kyoto agreement http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1252556.stm . The World is already on a slippery slope, environmentally and those countries who consider themselves to be World Powers have a responsibility to lead the way. Unfortunately we live in an economic World where big business, not Goverments per-se, pull the strings and are the true puppet masters of many Western Countries!

Our thirst for energy and our eagerness to pollute the planet will ulimately be our downfall.....its effects may unfortunately be felt in NZ first as it is placed directly under the ozone hole and is very close to Antarctica!

NZ itself is not without it's energy versus environment problems, it faces a very real prospect of imminent energy shortages and as the population increases this situation can only get worse.

There has been muffled talk of NZ considering nuclear power again....believe it or not! Helen Clarke (PM) however quashes any informed debate on the subject. I know you must all think this goes against much of what NZ has stood for on the nuclear argument, however it cannot be completely ruled out as an alternative!

Indeed it may be the only alternative once the oil, gas and coal are consumed!!!! Certainly renewable energy resources are a great alternative but unfortunately they will not produce enough energy to sustain countries with high population densities! They can at best slow down the inevitable!

Prof James Lovelock, Gaia hypothesis, recently expressed these views and makes a compeling argument , believe it or not FOR Nuclear power as "The only Green Alternative! http://www.perfect.co.uk/2004/05/james-lovelock-nuclear-power-is-the-only-green-solution

Something to think about eh! :?

OK Environmental hat off now and safetly back on it's hanger!

Flack Jacket and Helmet ON!

On the war in Iraq..... Bush and Blair stuffed up...BIG TIME IMHO! This is not said with the benefit of hindsight I hasten to add and I have always voiced my very deep concerns on this issue prior to the war! Don't want to get too into this one as it's a very emotive subject and nothing to do with emigrating to NZ!

Sorry Y'all....didn't mean to high jack your thread and get all flustrated!

You guys are welcome at the Smiths house warming party....just got to get into it first! How about sometime in the New Year?

[coastcat]

Don't want to get too into this one as it's a very emotive subject and nothing to do with emigrating to NZ!

Well, in a way it's entirely relevant. The actions of our leaders increases the attractiveness of Americans (and Brits) as targets. As someone living near a whole heck of a lot of government institutions, well, it's a bit nerve wracking. Makes you want to run far away and hide behind a flock of sheep.

[ChiefWiggum]

I havent had time to read all the replies on this thread, but I do get the general gist of it.

Personally I think leaving your country because the country's leader/s are doing an incredibly bad job (both US and UK) is extremely valid..

George Bush makes all Americans look like idiots. In fact, I saw a clip of the Republican, erm, gathering on telly last night, and some of the people speaking on there just came across as complete and utter morons - motivated by power and nothing else. It's the attitude that says 'We're the best damn country in the world and we couldnt give a stuff about anyone else..'. Hence the terrorist threat..

Don't even get me started about the environment! It seems like the John Kerry guy might actually make a better fist of the job, but you know what politicians are like, promises promises...

Tony Blair is no better. He's simply prepared to go along with whatever Bush says. Spineless would be a good word to describe him.

Recently we had a leaflet delivered in the post telling us what to do in event of a terrorist attack. Frankly I don't want to raise my children in a country where I have to even think about the possibility of that happening - and its all down to the governments in charge and their policies....

sorry I got a bit worked up there!

[ChiefWiggum]

George Bush makes all Americans look like idiots.


No offence intended by this statement! In fact I've been to the country and you're a really nice bunch of people, I have some friends over there. I meant to say its the image that he shows to the rest of the world....

[Zoush]

[...] the IQ of tepid Koolaid. [...]



Sorry for being off-topic, but what does that mean? Could not find it in the dictionaries, but I find an entry here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koolaid. It must be something which is not available in Germany. Should I be happy for not knowing what you mean? :roll:

Frithjof

[Radders]

I was always under the impression that NZ's reputation as a clean green country was mainly down to its small population (which of course we will all be adding to). The fact that they have no nuclear plants ( good in most respects) meant that they are heavily dependent on fossil fuels ( ie that hydro electric etc makes up only a small percentage).
Those of you in Christchurch can probably vouch for the hazy smog that can descend on the place.
I've always admired NZ stance on the nuclear point, and have strong views on the environmental hazards of nuclear proliferation (in the energy producing sense), but when it comes to the threat of global warming there is at the present time little choice. Renewable resources simply can not meet demand.
My old chemistry lecturer used to say that he thought GW Bush had the right idea! Burn baby burn!! Get rid of all the oil etc and then the planet can repair itself. If we simply stop emmitting green house gases, it will merely increase the amounts coming back out of CO2 sinks such as peat bogs, and the oceans. All we will be doing is drip feeding the planet, and it will take much longer for the problem to correct itself.

Personally I believe there has to be a global shift in how energy is consumed. The number of office blocks with lights left on over night, the number of cars that travel with the driver and no passengers, buying produce that has flown half way round the world to get to your supermarket. We all do it. Until this changes, there is no chance of renewables saving the day.

[drumminj]

Uh-oh, I hope people could understand that I meant the store had the hangers out front for people to take if they needed them! Sounded weird on the reread. My non-political reasons for going...my husband grew up in Southern California, and when we read on another post that it was like CA 'used to be' well, we got the fever. We love the outdoors here, the weather, the relaxed attitude...we do not love the pressure of tract houses nose to nose, huge SUVs clogging down the roads, and for me, as a woman, I don't particularly care for the hateful attitude of a lot of people about your looks being your best value. I am not a size 4 blonde with capped teeth and I am sick of being told for years that I am a loser if I don't aspire to be such. I am more than my looks and my possessions, thank you very much! Surfs up! :cool

Minus living in California, these are pretty much my reasons as well. Didn't think about leaving the US until I had visited NZ. I had thought about getting out and experiencing other cultures - wishing I had studied abroad in college. After being in NZ, it just seems to have all the things I like about this country (and this city), and lacking many of the things I don't like. Of course, I'm sure some things aren't as "perfect" as they appear to be, but I'm expecting that, and can live with that. And if I find it's not what I was looking for, I can always move back here. Or to Australia. Canada's just too damn cold.

J

[drumminj]

and last but not least, being a Scotsman, I happen to like sheep- lots and lots of sheep! :clap


There's a joke in there somewhere, but I'm just gonna leave it alone :roll:

[drumminj]

I was always under the impression that NZ's reputation as a clean green country was mainly down to its small population (which of course we will all be adding to). The fact that they have no nuclear plants ( good in most respects) meant that they are heavily dependent on fossil fuels ( ie that hydro electric etc makes up only a small percentage).
Those of you in Christchurch can probably vouch for the hazy smog that can descend on the place.
I've always admired NZ stance on the nuclear point, and have strong views on the environmental hazards of nuclear proliferation (in the energy producing sense), but when it comes to the threat of global warming there is at the present time little choice. Renewable resources simply can not meet demand.
My old chemistry lecturer used to say that he thought GW Bush had the right idea! Burn baby burn!! Get rid of all the oil etc and then the planet can repair itself. If we simply stop emmitting green house gases, it will merely increase the amounts coming back out of CO2 sinks such as peat bogs, and the oceans. All we will be doing is drip feeding the planet, and it will take much longer for the problem to correct itself.

Personally I believe there has to be a global shift in how energy is consumed. The number of office blocks with lights left on over night, the number of cars that travel with the driver and no passengers, buying produce that has flown half way round the world to get to your supermarket. We all do it. Until this changes, there is no chance of renewables saving the day.

all good points. One thing I want to comment on here is the recurring objection to nuclear power (hahah.. at first I started typing "nucular"). Nuclear plants can be quite safe, if that is the concern. China just announced they were going to be building many nuclear power plants, and have done many studies and tests. They will be using pellet-based reactors. I can dig up the article, if y'all like. They did a test - turned off the cooling system - to test the safety features. Everything worked fine.

I don't know much about the environmental impact of such a reactor, though. Obviously waste is an issue. I don't know how that's addressed with pellet-based reactors.

[gratto]

Hey all, long time lurker and I wanted to chime in and give my thoughts.

I'm 30 years old, and just finishing off my degree in IT, have plenty of work experience and such. Well around my area there are no IT jobs worth a damn and I would have to relocate no mater what. Well since I would have to move I might as well move someplace completely new and try and find a job.

Now my other reason. I dislike both the Pres. candidates. I'm tired of picking between the worst of two evils. Whatever happened to having good leadership? (note: these are just my personal opinions)

Now as far as being a coward. I served my country in the Persian Gulf part I. Worked on the flight deck of the Abe Lincoln, which is one of the most dangerous places in the world to work. So I believe the whole coward thing is a moot point in any conversation. Not going to go into the whole was the war (either part one, or two) worth it. But I feel being a coward or not has no bearing on the process for anyone. If you dislike someplace just move its your choice not theirs, who cares what they think. If they are happy where they live more power to them.

[unbrand]

gratto, excellent post. I'm in IT as well, and have been for 15 years. I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area, IT Mecca, right? Wrong. After the dot-com and telecom busts, all of a sudden there were WAY too many people here for the jobs available. The bay area is still recovering and will be for some time.

On the issue of cowardice... I was raised in a conservative American household and notions of patriotism were instilled in me at a very young age. Fortunately, most of my friends and family have been supportive of my decision to move to NZ. But there's still that nagging in the back of my head that I'm "abandoning" the US.

Over the past few years I've been doing a lot of research into the US government's policies, dogma, propaganda, what have you. :-) As mentioned earlier in the thread, Peak Oil is indeed a frightening development that has been coming for some time. In fact Jimmy Carter tried to make the US more aware of environmental issues and in particular move us away from such heavy dependence on foreign oil. What did he get for his efforts? A political smear job that branded him as weak and a naysayer. Ronald Reagan promised happy sunny times for everyone. And so it began... What we're seeing now with Chimpy McSmirk is just the extension of what was begun over 20 years ago. Lots of the same folks involved -- Cheney, Rumsfeld (Rumsferatu), etc.

There is MUCH more going on with so many things in America that we aren't being told. I've ready many (most?) comments on this forum regarding 9-11 and I have to honestly say that I believe the truth to be far more dangerous and evil than I've seen mentioned.

For a good summary of many of these issues, here's a link to a speech made a few days ago by Michael Ruppert

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/PDF/Commonwealth.pdf

I used to read stuff like the above, and my first thought was "conspiracy theory." There certainly is a lot of fringe stuff out there that today I would consider conspiracy theory, but Michael Ruppert's writings I do believe.

Sorry for the rant, but the above is a big part of why I'm going to NZ. I am very much looking forward to NZ as in "going towards" vs. "running away" so it is a mixture of both.

On to cowardice... Again, gratto, great points, and I agree with you. Another way of looking at it is like this: What would it really take to make things better in the US? My current thinking is revolution. But how would that happen? Some people take a "I'm hoarding guns 'n ammo and jus' let 'em try to get me!" attitude. Well, that may have worked in 1776, maybe. But this is 2004. The revolution (assuming that's the best option for a moment) will not require you to load your gun with shot faster than your opponent. To me, it would require massive non-violent protest like what Gandhi fostered. Does America have it in her character to pull off something like that? I seriously doubt it.

And besides, why is it MY responsibility to fix the entire system of government just so I can feel good about living in the US? In other words, there would have to be a radical shake-up (far beyond getting a Democrat in the White House) of this country to turn it back into the country I was raised to believe in. Sure, there's always been corruption, but like what we're seeing now? How many more Reichstag fires are going to happen here?

Oy. Thanks much for reading. There are a lot of kind and interesting and kindred voices on this board. Thanks.

[coastcat]

[...] the IQ of tepid Koolaid. [...]



Sorry for being off-topic, but what does that mean? Could not find it in the dictionaries, but I find an entry here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koolaid. It must be something which is not available in Germany. Should I be happy for not knowing what you mean? :roll:

Frithjof

As the Wikipedia explains, Kool-Aid is a flavored, sweetened powder used to make fruit-flavored beverages popular with children. Raeven's comment can be translated as "the IQ of tepid water" if that makes more sense! By the way, tepid Kool-Aid is a bit unpleasant - the warmth emphasizes the chemical flavors.

Chimpy McSmirk? :laugh

[kamus]

I was always under the impression that NZ's reputation as a clean green country was mainly down to its small population (which of course we will all be adding to). The fact that they have no nuclear plants ( good in most respects) meant that they are heavily dependent on fossil fuels ( ie that hydro electric etc makes up only a small percentage).

Hmmm, the info that I saw was that 75% of NZ's electricity comes from renewable sources, mainly hydro. I honestly don't remember where I read that, but it struck me as from a reliable source. Perhaps one of the Kiwis here will have the correct stats handy.

NZ also has unexploited potential in the form of wind farms and I've heard there is a lot of wind on parts of NZ and not just in government!:cool

I have no objection to nuclear power but it has to be shown to be safe and there's the rub. One problem with NZ and nuclear power is that geologically, it's just not the most stable area on earth.

I think that peak oil and other pressures are going to force most of the world very quickly towards nuclear power because radders is right when he(?) asserts that renewables just cannot take up the slack left in the wake of the coming oil crash.

-Dave

[kamus]

[...] the IQ of tepid Koolaid. [...]



Sorry for being off-topic, but what does that mean? Could not find it in the dictionaries, but I find an entry here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koolaid. It must be something which is not available in Germany. Should I be happy for not knowing what you mean? :roll:

Frithjof

Frihjof- Kool Aid is a loathsome, non-nutritive, sugary artificially flavoured and coloured soft drink fed to children here in the US (and to suicide pact victims in Guyana). I think the writer was suggesting, especially by use of the word "tepid", that George Bush has an IQ in the room temprature range (72 degrees Fahrenheit)

-Dave

[coastcat]

The Energy Efficiency Conservation Authority's (http://www.eeca.govt.nz/default2.asp) status report states that renewable energy sources produce 72% of NZ's electricity, but that renewable sources account for only 34% of the total consumer energy consumption.

FYI, hydropower and renewable sources account for approximately 12% of US electricity (hydro is 10%).

[kamus]

Chimpy McSmirk? :laugh

Actually on the lefty political sites that I tend to haunt, I often see GWB referred to as Chimpy McAwol

I'm guessing, from the fact that no one has spoken up yet, that I(we) are not offending anyone with our rather blatant Bush bashing. If so, just speak up- I can be nice, if forced to be.

Dave

P.S. I perform with a group in the US called the "Capitol Steps" which is a poltical satire comedy troup and believe me, we are just as hard on Kerry as GWB (well, almost)

[Raeven]

Hi, karl,

I think it's great you and Mark have joined in our discussion. Thanks very much for a allowing a welcoming and diverse environment in which we are all able to express ourselves freely -- I think it's so important that we all have the chance to hear the views of others, even if we disagree.

We don't disagree much so far as I can see, though -- one of my first disappointments with the Bush Administration in a long line of disappointments was our abandonment of the Kyoto Accord. Environmentally, our current administration has the worst record I can ever recall. So many hard-won battles for environmental protections have been undone with the stroke of a pen. Where I live is one of the few stretches of California coastline which remains unspoiled by the sight of oil platforms dotting the horizon. It took years to create a watchdog position by the California Coastal Commission, whose task it has been to review and approve or disapprove any additional oil drilling off our coast. Bush & Co. are already working hard to set that stipulation aside. We'll be lucky if it lasts out the year.

Interesting too that both you and J have made the point -- legitimate, in my view -- that corporate interests control our destinies and this is an enormous flaw in the respective governments of the UK and the USA. I have no idea how to change this except to get rid of the politicians who are in their pockets as fast as we can. GWB falls squarely in this category and doesn't even try very hard to hide it. So many Republicans seem puzzled by what they have termed our economic "jobless recovery." I don't see what's so hard to understand; GWB employed the old weak trick of trickle-down economic theory by cutting taxes, in the hope that large corporate entities would, in a fit of good will, reinvest those funds in expansion and growth and thereby create jobs for us poor slobs in the trenches. Well, the corporations kept the tax money, but a cursory review of their balance sheets reveals that they simply pocketed the dough. Why? For the rainy day we all see on the horizon. Now, that worked well, didn't it? I guess it depends on the actual but unspoken goal.

Thanks to coastcat and kamus for clarifying my Koolaid remark to Zoush. I apologize for being obscure; Koolaid was just the nastiest tepid liquid I could think of as I was madly typing!! I wasn’t in that instance slamming GWB per se, but it easily applies.

Kamus, I don’t think anyone is much offended by our Bush-bashing.. it could be much worse, as we all know. My Kiwi husband can hardly stay in the room when GWB makes an appearance on tv. He often leaves the room, trailing a lurid, graphic stream of rude comments as only Kiwis can make them! I think everyone here has contributed thoughtful, deeply felt opinions and exercised courtesy and general respect in their expression of them. I look forward to meeting you all. And Karl, we will be at your open house if we’re in the country, on that you have my word!! It will be a privilege!!

Rae

[clg]

I can't watch Bush speak either. I turn the channel or just leave. I read the paper the next day. The only time I watch is is on the RARE occasion he does a press conference since it is ammusing to watch him try and answer questions while keeping to his script.

[Dianne42]

Wow, what a wonderfully thoughtful and well-considered set of replies - if nothing else, this thread has reaffirmed by belief in the good common sense of many humans - something that I have to say was on a huge slide for me until I came across it! :roll:

When I was a lass first thinking of where I could emigrate to so I could 'see the world', my first thought was the USA. So, dutifully, I did a degree in American Studies, enabling me to learn about the USA and spend a year there studying and getting to know the place.

During my time in UC Davis (California for those not in the know) I found that the people of American were on the whole absolutely lovely - many nice fok, some pillocks and a few that simply scared the pants off me! I was very impressed by how positive the average American is compared with the average Brit (I do understand how we get the whinging pom name, unfortunately) and I loved that people were very helpful and kind with each other. Sadly, the scary people were a larger percentage than I thought I could manage!!! :eek

Also while I was there I also realised that the USA is very insular, largely due to the media. If I wanted to now what was happening back home, even in the national elections, I have to go online. If I wanted to know what was happening in the next State, even, it was almost as bad. And I lost count how many people had a serious - and I do mean serious -lack of knowledge about both world georgraphy and their own US history. It was a bit worrying really when the country is so extremely powerful in the world, to know that so many folk don't know their geographical or historica part in the overall world make-up, esp. when that fact includes those in power! :uhoh

Very sad, becuse I still think the American people can be some of the most lovely people in the world, it is a beautiful country and has many things going for it. :nice1

So, mi hunt for a new home after the UK turned to NZ ... and that's where I'm headed. It's not perfect, and it is also a little insular, but it ticks many of my happy boxes, and for now that's enough :)

[veronica]

New zealand is not so much insular as isolated. Having experienced the same lack of world knowledge in many americans (as you say primary cause being selective media coverage and limited world education) I can honestly say that NZers don't suffer from that. They are all very realistic people, the media coverage on world events is there, but they are aware of how far they are from other countries.

[jerjon]

Thought I'd add my thoughts. It is REALLY nice to see similar thoughts and sentiments on this thread; it is so easy to feel like a "misfit" in the States if you are not some blathering redneck idiot. OK, my reasons for wanting to move to NZ. Same as many already mentioned; I am not so much angry at our politicians (I don't expect much from them) but I am really angry at my fellow citizens who are so taken in by the lies that are fed to them by the media. I live in major Redneck Country here in the Mojave Desert, many people here are gung-ho on "carpet bombing the rest of the world" for questioning US foreign policy (you know, show them ferinners how tough Americans are).

Another major issue for me is this debate over same sex marriage. My partner and I have been together over 10 years. I would just like the same economic benefits that married straight couples get. (For example my partner does not qualify for some of my work related benefits because he is not my "spouse") It sickens me to read everyday, on various news web sites, how I am this major threat to families and will cause the end of the world as we know it if I am allowed to marry my partner. My own family does not seem to view me as much of a threat. So, we are looking for a place that is more progressive than here, where we might have the same economic opportunities as other couples. Canada is an attractive alternative but I am not a big fan of rain or long winters. Australia strikes me as too similar to the US in attitude and politics. We visited NZ and loved the countryside, particularly the South Island. I know that the South tends to be more conservative that the North Island but we do appreciate rural lifestyles more than being in the city (hence the move to the Mojave Desert where we have lots of acreage and open space). I would not consider myself an "activist" sort of person that would force people to accept my sexual preference, however, I do want to be treated as a person and not as a disease. I would hope that NZers would have a more "live and let live" attitude that the moralists here that want to determine how I should live my life.

[drumminj]

Jerjon - I think the problem with same-sex marriage in the US is that the "religious right" can't seperate the religious "marriage" with the civil union. Do that, and all the objections I've heard just melt away. It's one of those big "DUH" moments. Quite frustrating.

I will speak up and say that I object to excessive Bush-bashing. I bash him myself at times - mainly when discussing politics with my brother. But I don't really see him as much worse than any other politician, and I just don't want to get dragged into arguing that. Sure, he's bad. But I don't believe he's as bad as most of the "lefties" want to make him out to be.

Rae - Regardless of whether trickle-down economics is a sound theory, to be fair, any gov't program to jump-start the economy isn't going to have an effect immediately. The administration in office certainly gets blamed for the state of the economy during their term, however 1) the economy is cyclical, and 2) There is going to be a lag between the implementation of any economic policy and visible results.

Notice I haven't said whether I agree with Bush's plan, or believe in trickle-down economics. I'm not sure I have an opinion, and I really don't have a background in economics. But if you're going to bash his policies, at least be fair.

This has been a very good, civil conversation. It helps that we mostly agree, but it's very interesting to see everyone's viewpoints.

J

[Raeven]

Hi, jerjon,

I don't understand what gives people such fits about this issue, I really don't.. love is love, and who can say what form is the "right" one? Most people who espouse the point of view that marriage is sacred and should be reserved for unions that afford procreation haven't stopped to think that by their definition, a lot of us wouldn't be marriage material. My husband and I married later in life; we choose to have no children. By their definition, we shouldn't be allowed to marry, either. Nor should men and women who are infertile. Nor should elderly couples. It's just ridiculous. If everyone involved in the relationship is a consenting adult, what business is it of anyone else's? I've seen firsthand the hurtles you and your partner must overcome in terms of rights of inheritance, work-related benefits, etc. All I can say is, I agree with you.. marriage ought to be an option available to any committed couple.

However, I have to warn you that according to NZ friends of mine, it's not much better in NZ, at least so far as acceptance goes. One friend works for the local hospital where we are looking to settle. She shares that a gay friend of hers takes endless crap for it, and she hates having to watch the behavior of her co-workers. Now, this is a comparatively small South Island town (Blenheim), but you may find some of this in the rest of the country, too. On the other hand, others have said people are much more matter-of-fact over same sex couples, so maybe things will be better for you. I hope so.

J, I'm no economics professor either, but the idea of trickle-down economics as I understand it is as a quick-and-dirty fix to pump money into the paws of companies that drive the economy in the hope that in their largesse they will reinvest the funds into their growth and create new jobs, and all that that implies. While I agree with you a reasonable period of time should be allowed for any economic policy to take effect, GWB made his tax cuts a priority when he took office, and they were one of the first things he enacted. Three years should be time enough for any economic policy to work. I would submit that the time for this one -- which was idiotic when Reagan did it but at least worked more in the way it was intended, and remains idiotic today -- has expired. Don't forget; reasonable minds can differ. :mrgreen:

Rae

[kamus]

I will speak up and say that I object to excessive Bush-bashing. I bash him myself at times - mainly when discussing politics with my brother. But I don't really see him as much worse than any other politician, and I just don't want to get dragged into arguing that.

Drumminj- I respect that you're offended by "excessive" Bush-bashing and I promised to play nice in terms of laying off the cheap shots- however, and I don't want to get dragged into along winded arguement about this either, I do feel Bush warrants a lot of criticism and he's not just another politican. I think he has a hell of a lot to answer for and the blood of a lot of innocent people is on his hands. Rather than recite the laundry list I will direct anyone who is interested to this site Fifteen Hundred Documented Reasons Not to Vote For Bush (http://www.thousandreasons.org/listB.html)


I also feel that criticism of the President is absolutely germaine to the topic of this thread. Although we feel the American People are the most to blame for the emerging calamity that is America in 2004, in large part due to their panicky response to the terrible events of 9/11, and Congress and Kerry also share the blame for a lack of courageous opposition, we see Bush as a cynical exploiter of a terrible tragedy for personal political gain and a man that has subsequently caused a great deal of harm to befall this formerly great country and the rest of the world too.

I think a lot of Americans dismiss criticism of Bush because after all, he is an "American President" and no-one could be that bad.

Problem is-he is that bad!

So while I will refrain from indulging in ad hominem attacks or linking to stupid anti-Bush humour, I will not refrain from being critical of the man who I feel is most responsible for causing me and my family to flee our home country of 39 years.



</rant>

Dave

[veronica]

hi, going back to the subject of same sex couples... (I hate talking politics) ...I think it is always more of a problem in rural areas and not such a problem in the cities. As a rule people in cities tend to be broader minded but the only way to find out is to perhaps chuck the question out there in the forum as a separate thread and see what response you get. Are there any gay web pages that you can track in NZ to see if that could get a response.

[kamus]

(drops the political brickbat for a sec)

Veronica, I saw in one of the "Migrant's Stories" that they mentioned racism as one of the negatives about NZ life. Specifically, attitudes towards Asians and the Maori. I have two little adopted Chinese girls (adorable!!!) and I wonder how they will fare in NZ society. Although we're fleeing the US for many reasons, we actually live in a wonderful multi-cultural area and racism is not a problem here (although it is in many other parts of the US)
Any insights?

Thanks

Dave

(now where's that brickbat?)

[veronica]

I've only been in Chch for 4 months and have heard about the negative race thing but so far I haven't seen it.
From talking to others it appears that its not so much a race thing as a culture thing. ie if you are here, intergrating with the comunity, speaking english, and being a new zealander there isn't a problem. the problems seem to come when any particular sect or racial group congregates in an area and carries on as though they were where they come from.
To be honest I think the less attention given to racism the better, as very often it is the media that is creating it.
As for kids, well they may get some stick because they are asian but we've got two daughters (grown up now)and they both got stick because they were tall, one of their friends suffered because she wore very thick glasses and yet another because she had red hair. Horrible little sub-species children.

[drumminj]

Drumminj- I respect that you're offended by "excessive" Bush-bashing and I promised to play nice in terms of laying off the cheap shots- however, and I don't want to get dragged into along winded arguement about this either, I do feel Bush warrants a lot of criticism and he's not just another politican. I think he has a hell of a lot to answer for and the blood of a lot of innocent people is on his hands. Rather than recite the laundry list I will direct anyone who is interested to this site Fifteen Hundred Documented Reasons Not to Vote For Bush (http://www.thousandreasons.org/listB.html)

Fair enough, Dave. I'm not actually offended. Sure, I voted for shrub in 2000, and stand by my reasons for doing so. I don't plan on voting for him again - I'll probably vote libertarian, even if it is "throwing my vote away". I agree that the Bush administration deserves a lot of criticism. I disagree that it all should be directed at Bush himself. Unfortunately you can't have one without the other.

Re: blood of innocents. Remember, the CiC didn't take us into war without the say so of Congress. Now, perhaps they were lied to, but I feel it is their responsibility to do their own due diligence. That's what they get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for, no?

Trust me, I'm not asking you to be sympathetic towards bush, or even stop being critical. Just trying to avoid a political discussion where we no longer have common ground. There are other internet forums for that.

Points we all seem to agree on:

1) government is messed up
2) American citizens are messed up (and also to blame for this situation)
3) New Zealand is gorgeous
4) Vive la revolution?

J

[Radders]

Hi Coastcat,
Thanks for the link, and my apologies to Dave (kamus) for disagreeing with your facts!
Although if I understand coastcat's point, we were partly both right!
Am I right in thinking that NZ therefore imports more than 50% of its energy??
That's quite a problem building up.
Of course NZ has huge potential for renewables, and with a small population it has the possibility of satisfying demand. BUT only if consumption is reduced as I stated before.

[jerjon]

Oh I forgot another major reason for considering emigrating from the US- retirement. My sister in Florida retired but found that with her house insurance, car insurance and medical supplements to MediCare, she had to return to work part time! I would hate to be 70 and have to work just to afford medical care. I won't be able to retire until sometime in the 2030s so I would imagine the cost of medical care/medication in the US will be enormous by then, particularly if Social Security is privatised.

On the same sex marriage issue; I have been watching the NZ news and see that parliament is considering a civil unions bill that would not recognize same sex marriage but would make all "de facto" relationships (marriage, same sex and straight unmarried couples) equal. I have not seen any huge amount of doomsday predictions in the NZ press (not much of any coverage actually) but it does appear the US group Focus on the Family is setting up shop to warn NZers about the pending end of their civilization if they allow parliament to pass this bill. Again, I don't care if it's called marriage, civil union or whatever. I just want the little things like being allowed to visit my partner in an intensive care unit of a hospital if there is an accident (many ICUs are "immediate family" only), not having to sell our house if he should die because his conservative brother is more "legally" entitled to his estate than I am, etc.

Raeven wrote:

However, I have to warn you that according to NZ friends of mine, it's not much better in NZ, at least so far as acceptance goes. One friend works for the local hospital where we are looking to settle. She shares that a gay friend of hers takes endless crap for it, and she hates having to watch the behavior of her co-workers. Now, this is a comparatively small South Island town (Blenheim), but you may find some of this in the rest of the country, too.

It is interesting, I have lived my live in very varied settings from Greenwich Village in NYC to a small town of 90 people on the west end of Catalina Island. I have never really had any specific harrassment for being gay (except in school-different subject). My theory is that if you are not "perceived" as gay (i.e. you are not stereotypically effeminate or somehow appear "soft") people do not see you as much of a threat. People just assume my partner and I are straight guys until they start asking questions like "how are you related?". In our travels in NZ (and also England) we would often books rooms ahead through the local TIs. When we would show up at the B&B or hotel invariably the receptionist says something like "oh the TI made a mistake and booked you in a room with one bed". When we insist that, yes we really do want the room with just one bed we have not had any problem. Of course most hoteliers are not going to turn away paying guests. We did have the chance to attend a Christmas party in a gay club in Dunedin and were told by the locals that they have not experienced alot of discrimination lately. Ditto for staying at a gay B&B in Wellington. I do have the advantage of working in social services where people tend to be more accepting. My partner is a cabinet maker. Currently works for a bunch of bikers that own a high end cabinet shop. It took them about a year to realize Jerry was not straight. Now we are all good friends, we hang out outside of work, they don't make anymore "fag" jokes and I think are a bit more enlightened then before they met Jerry. I also think that if people get to know you as a person first, they are less threatened by someone being gay.

Thanks for letting me vent and write these long posts. BTW, we do have some photos from our trip to NZ last November on our website if anyone should be interested...

John (jerjon= Jerry & John, get it? :cool )[/quote]

[kamus]

Re: blood of innocents. Remember, the CiC didn't take us into war without the say so of Congress. Now, perhaps they were lied to, but I feel it is their responsibility to do their own due diligence.


Well they were not privy to the actual evaluations of most of the so called "intelligence" that the administration distorted and used to further their pre-ordained objective. Sorry-couldn't help myself.

Just trying to avoid a political discussion where we no longer have common ground. There are other internet forums for that.

You're right and I'll drop the political thrust of my posts- I'm so damn tired of arguing about this and being angry at the administration and writing in online forums like this- all I want to do is raise my family and go back to being a musician-that's why we are moving to New Zealand in the first place! In short, I'll shut up! :angel

Points we all seem to agree on:

1) government is messed up
2) American citizens are messed up (and also to blame for this situation)
3) New Zealand is gorgeous
4) Vive la revolution?

1.yes
2.yes
3.yes
4.yes

Thanks for your measured and civil responses-it's refreshing as a lot of the political forums where I do most of my ranting rapidly degenerates into name calling and shouting matches.

-Dave

[karltsmith]

How refreshing to have such emotive subjects debated in such a civil manner! I take my hat off to you all we (ENZ) have obviously attracted some very sensible people to our forum!


Drumminj (oops Dave) Wrote: (thanks for that Jason!)

Thanks for your measured and civil responses-it's refreshing as a lot of the political forums where I do most of my ranting rapidly degenerates into name calling and shouting matches.

Of course such discussions are welcome on the forum as long as name calling and shouting matches are avoided!

Cheers all :booby

[drumminj]

To be fair, that quote you have there, karl, is Dave's, not mine. At any rate, I agree. It's good to see people remain civil.

Dave - I'm curious. Will you be absentee-voting from NZ?

J

[Annierobrigado]

hello to americans!

i found this thread quite interesting. Personally, the first reason why we decided to migrate is because during our last elections, another actor wanted to become president of the philippines and for a while it really seemed like he was going to win, he was a very popular figure in our movie industry. and many filipinos believed he was the "knight in shining armor" as you say, ready to save the philippines from brink of destruction. many of the thinking filipinos were appalled and aghast at what it could mean to the country if he were indeed elected, and many of our middle- to upper middle- income citizens have migrated or are preparing to migrate to other countries in the world, just to make a change in their lives and avert a national disaster. our political system and our way of life have been thoroughly influenced by the americans since they arrived in the late 1800's, and it is through them that many of our citizens still pursue the American Dream... get a visa to the US, land a job and become a US citizen in the next 5 years or so.

My own parents have migrated to the States, and are counting down to the time they will take their oath of allegiance to the US flag... while I kind of agree that what that entails can offer so much in opportunity for a better life for any person, I am afraid that terrorists all over the world would one day band together and finally send the rocket that would obliterate the US from the face of the earth. With due respect to socal gal, raeven, drumminj, etc, and your dads, don't you feel that somehow the US is no longer revered as much by the world? The world still admires you, respects you, even fears you, but please... from the way you handled Iraq, and brought along other countries in the war with you, we can only shake our heads in sadness and frustration.

Do you know that eversince the Philippines agreed to remove our troops in Iraq in exchange for the life of one of our countrymen who was held hostage by Iraqi rebels (that person, Angelo dela Cruz who was just a driver of one of the supply trucks passing through Iraq on the way to saudi arabia, is already back home), after being mocked on international tv by your favorite comedian Jay Leno, many Filipinos trying to get their visas to the states are now finding it difficult to get them, even if they were just renewing visas? We feel as if it was our "punishment" for "leaving" the US in the coalition of the willing...

which comes to why we want to migrate... we believe there are other countries in the world that can offer what the US can but without the stress and the aggravation. and we chose New Zealand! Hopefully we can get there just by our points (we've already 115 points), and we heard just last Sept 1, NZ picked from the pool of expressions of interest about a thousand expectant migrants, with the cut off points at 100!! We missed that boat, :wah

I guess the bottom line is migration is what any of us want to do to change our lives and that of our families. it won't be easy leaving behind memories and friends and families, all things familiar and comfortable, to go to a place we only see in pictures and in our imagination. but new friends and family are waiting for us there, new memories to form and a chance to merge our own culture with that of NZ' diverse one, maybe to do what Aragorn and the rest did to Middle Earth :P

Hey! Im done posturing! I just wish we would succeed in getting over to NZ! maybe we'll see each other there... good luck to all of us!

Annie :D

[kamus]

To be fair, that quote you have there, karl, is Dave's, not mine. At any rate, I agree. It's good to see people remain civil.

Dave - I'm curious. Will you be absentee-voting from NZ?

J

Honestly, by the time I get to NZ (whenever that is) I'll be putting the US behind me-my belief in the democratic process in the US has taken quite a beating!. I may continue to vote in the UK elections until I get NZ citizenship at which point I'll happily invest what political energy I have in our new homeland.

How about you- will you continue to excercise your long range democratic privilege in NZ?

Dave

[kamus]

hello to americans!


Do you know that eversince the Philippines agreed to remove our troops in Iraq in exchange for the life of one of our countrymen who was held hostage by Iraqi rebels (that person, Angelo dela Cruz who was just a driver of one of the supply trucks passing through Iraq on the way to saudi arabia, is already back home), after being mocked on international tv by your favorite comedian Jay Leno, many Filipinos trying to get their visas to the states are now finding it difficult to get them, even if they were just renewing visas? We feel as if it was our "punishment" for "leaving" the US in the coalition of the willing...

Annie :D

Thanks for your interesting post Annie. As far as what is quoted above, unfortunately I am not the least bit surprised as US foreign policy is now very much carrot and stick driven.

Sorry-I promised I wouldn't get too political-old habits die hard!

Good luck on your process!

:D

Dave

[drumminj]

Hi Annie. It's good to see yet another perspective on how Americans are viewed around the globe. A few points I'd like to make...

With due respect to socal gal, raeven, drumminj, etc, and your dads, don't you feel that somehow the US is no longer revered as much by the world? The world still admires you, respects you, even fears you, but please... from the way you handled Iraq, and brought along other countries in the war with you, we can only shake our heads in sadness and frustration.

Do understand that American is 270-ish million people. A very small percentage of those vote (what, 30%?), and a little under half voted for the administration in office. The actions of our government presumably reflect the wishes of far less than the majority of the population here, if any at all (there really is no accountability). And I would think that the few countries that joined us in Iraq did so of their own volition, even if was just so they didn't lose "most favored nation" status with the US.

I think that very few of the Americans here, if any, care to be "revered" by the rest of the world. I think a lot of Americans, save for those in power, would rather we be a bit more isolationist. It saddes me, personally, that our culture has become so pervasive. I do believe that the UN has proven itself wholly ineffective, but that doesn't mean I agree with us going into Iraq. My point here is simply that applying generalizations to Americans isn't very fair, as you will be mis- characterizing a large number of people. I do think that the Americans on this board are quite aware of how we are viewed by the rest of the world, and don't blame everyone for having that view.

after being mocked on international tv by your favorite comedian Jay Leno, many Filipinos trying to get their visas to the states are now finding it difficult to get them, even if they were just renewing visas? We feel as if it was our "punishment" for "leaving" the US in the coalition of the willing...

While you can certainly feel that way, I highly doubt that this is really the case. Since our economy has gone south, the allocation of H1-B visas has gone down drastically. Companies must prove that the visa is for someone who has skills that can't be found in the talent pool in the US, and that the position can't be filled by a US citizen. With the large number of tech layoffs over the past 4 years, it's hard to argue that the position can't be filled with a US worker. I recruit for my company, and while we do consider non-US citizens, they are a last resort. I think this is much more likely for the difficulty with visas.

which comes to why we want to migrate... we believe there are other countries in the world that can offer what the US can but without the stress and the aggravation.

That is probably true, but if you want the closest experience to the US, canada is the way to go. NZ is very different, and the wages are quite a bit lower (about 33% for tech workers, it seems).

Not trying to discourage you, and certainly not trying to invalidate your feelings. Just wanted to throw some facts back at you, and lend my perspective, as an American, and as one who does recruit for a tech company.

Thanks for posting your opinions in here. It is great to see different perspectives.

J

[drumminj]

Honestly, by the time I get to NZ (whenever that is) I'll be putting the US behind me-my belief in the democratic process in the US has taken quite a beating!. I may continue to vote in the UK elections until I get NZ citizenship at which point I'll happily invest what political energy I have in our new homeland.

How about you- will you continue to excercise your long range democratic privilege in NZ?

Dave

I assume you meant US and not UK (or are you already a dual-citizen??). I can't imagine that I'd be voting from NZ. Why should I have input on the gov't, laws, and policies there if I am not living there, and don't plan to? Plus, like you, I feel pretty much disenfranchised at this point. Honestly, if one of my congresscritters would just acknowledge one of my emails, so I know it was actually read. A "hey, thanks for giving your input, and I will consider it, SINCE IT IS MY JOB", would go a long way. But since I see no signs that my input has any effect, I just don't see the point.

It's scary that I'm so jaded and cynical this early in life. I shudder at the though of what I'll be like if I'm 80 and still living here. I'll be a codgery old *[edit], for sure :no

J

[kamus]

I assume you meant US and not UK (or are you already a dual-citizen??). <snip>
Plus, like you, I feel pretty much disenfranchised at this point. Honestly, if one of my congresscritters would just acknowledge one of my emails, so I know it was actually read. A "hey, thanks for giving your input, and I will consider it, SINCE IT IS MY JOB", would go a long way. But since I see no signs that my input has any effect, I just don't see the point.

It's scary that I'm so jaded and cynical this early in life. I shudder at the though of what I'll be like if I'm 80 and still living here. I'll be a codgery old bastard, for sure :no

J

I am a dual citizen and can vote in the US and the UK-you think I'd be satisfied with that but no, I'm going for Tri-Citizenship!

Yep, me too-I've writeen reams of emails to congress etc and not even an automated response to show for it.

I look forward to buying you a drink in NZ and showing just how to do the old jaded codger bit which I have mastered beautifully.

-Dave

[jesselyn]

You guys are welcome at the Smiths house warming party....just got to get into it first! How about sometime in the New Year?

is everyone invited :hopeso or just the guys? ;) umm this invite reminded me of the kiwi koffee morning in chch :mrgreen: ...

jes :angel

[jesselyn]

woohoo! :clap ive got 2 planes already :nice1 (bows)

jes :angel

[karltsmith]

Hi Jess,
The term "Guys" was mean't to be genderless although after the ChCh coffee morning I can see I shall need to be more specific!!!!!


So for Guy read Guy's and Guyess's????????? :laugh

[coastcat]

Dave - I'm curious. Will you be absentee-voting from NZ?

Honestly, by the time I get to NZ (whenever that is) I'll be putting the US behind me-my belief in the democratic process in the US has taken quite a beating!. I may continue to vote in the UK elections until I get NZ citizenship at which point I'll happily invest what political energy I have in our new homeland.

I will continue voting from wherever we end up, for as long as I'm eligible to do so. What the US government does affects me in one way or the other, and what the state and county governments do affect my family and friends. Heck, I'm childfree, yet still take the trouble to research the school board candidates and cast my ballot.

Now I've just got to wrap my head around the NZ electoral process. All I remember about the British parlimentary system is what I learned from Yes Minister... :P

[jesselyn]

Hi Jess,
The term "Guys" was mean't to be genderless although after the ChCh coffee morning I can see I shall need to be more specific!!!!!

So for Guy read Guy's and Guyess's????????? :laugh

i know you meant genderless bro :laugh... i was just kidding ;). i was thinking about timbo and sexual discrimination :uhoh http://www.emigratenz.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52 :mrgreen:

jes :angel

[coastcat]

The term "Guys" was mean't to be genderless although after the ChCh coffee morning I can see I shall need to be more specific!!!!!

Where I'm from, this isn't a problem. We say "y'all". It's entirely gender-neutral!

[Woz]

Well just got back from italy and a few things I heard came to mind.

I am from the UK and my views on our dear Tony are similar to my views on GWB. All for the reason stated by many on this site.

The thing that shocked me in Italy was a number of people when they knew we were from the UK said "God save the Queen, death to Blair and Bush".

I think many people from all over the world are starting to become scared about the legacy of 9/11 and how it has been dealt with by the UK and the USA. The fact they decide to go it alone when the votes of the international community go against them etc.

Probably like many I could accept the Afghanistan war to go after OBL but the fact they never finished the job and then pull out most of the troops to walk into Iraq makes you question their motives. The level of oil supply demand and supply has already been covered so when you look at the fact Iraq is rich in oil makes you wonder?

Also what will happen a few years down the line when Iraq becomes a Muslim state. 60% are Shia Muslims and so it does not take much thinking that this is the way it will go. We are giving them control over how they run their country or are we. A Muslim state is the last thing the USA and UK want in Iraq.

I do have many other reasons for leaving the UK apart from political but the political issues do play on your mind.

[jesselyn]

The term "Guys" was mean't to be genderless although after the ChCh coffee morning I can see I shall need to be more specific!!!!!
Where I'm from, this isn't a problem. We say "y'all". It's entirely gender-neutral!

oh no :eek ! it isnt a problem :no i apologize if it sounded like it was...

jes :angel

[Annierobrigado]

hi dave, drumminj, everybody else,

thanks for your points of view. sorry mine was like generalizing about americans, it wasn't really meant to be. i think what i meant about "americans" are those in washington and the hill, as you call it. they do seem to be insular in their thinking, which i know isn't what the rest of the country is thinking. I may be watching too many espionage movies! there you go, one reason why other people think that way of americans is because of Hollywood. I know reel is far from real, but you can't really blame those whose only knowledge of america is what they see in the movies :no

(less than 30% of americans vote? isn't that violation of constitutional rights or something? I think it has to do with your electoral system, one which i don't understand anyway :eek )

i think what we really need is to see each other globally; after all the internet has made our world seem a lot smaller. no more americans or europeans or australians or canadians or asians. i'd really like to see us refer to each other as oh, drumminj or dave or raeven or sue or annie, my good friends who just happen to live 3000 miles away or something. if our only interaction would be through the world wide web, then it would be a great equalizer, yes? ;)

but i really would like to see you all soon in new zealand. somehow the pictures in the websites just keep calling to me, you know? "get on with your processing, girl, the kiwis are waiting!" :laugh I do hope we can continue our "political - eew-- discussions" face to face over a nice cup of coffee or what do the kiwis drink in the afternoon? tea? or brew? hehe, I'm allergic to alcohol. I'll just take juice or soda or iced tea, if that's okay with you! Or better yet, I'll introduce you to philippine coffee - "Barako" as we call it (Filipino term for stud or bull, which gives you an idea of how strong that coffee is ;) )

G'day to all!

Annie

[drumminj]

i think what we really need is to see each other globally; after all the internet has made our world seem a lot smaller. no more americans or europeans or australians or canadians or asians. i'd really like to see us refer to each other as oh, drumminj or dave or raeven or sue or annie, my good friends who just happen to live 3000 miles away or something. if our only interaction would be through the world wide web, then it would be a great equalizer, yes? ;)


I know this isn't what you meant, but I'll take this moment to preach my politics :angel

I think borders and differences are very important to preserve. Sure, I agree that we shouldn't look up or down at one another simply based on a label. And having the internet and access to people all over the world has made the globe seem smaller, and has helped to remove some biases. But...

There are different people in this world. Different cultures, different beliefs, different priorities. Sovereign borders allow us to continue to live this way (which I think is imporant). It allows us to have a different set of laws, and a different culture with different priorities. Otherwise, we get the problems the US currently faces, and EU will soon face (in my opinion), which is trying to force one set of ideals, morals, priorities, and culture, on a very large population that has very little in common other than an invisible boorder that contains them. Laws and government do not scale well. Well, assuming that government is democratic in some form. Tyranny scales wonderfully, but it's probably not what most are looking for in a government :laugh

Borders can be good. Especially when they serve to keep religion in (or out).

J

[kamus]

I think borders and differences are very important to preserve....

There are different people in this world. Different cultures, different beliefs, different priorities. Sovereign borders allow us to continue to live this way (which I think is imporant). It allows us to have a different set of laws, and a different culture with different priorities. Otherwise, we get the problems the US currently faces, and EU will soon face (in my opinion), which is trying to force one set of ideals, morals, priorities, and culture...

Borders can be good. Especially when they serve to keep religion in (or out).

J

Drumminj- I respect where you are coming from- you don't wish positive differences among peoples to be erased by some monolithic entity that could be turned against the people under its thumb and neither do I.

On the other hand, it's hard to make a good argument for nationalism, which traditionally has been the cause, along with religion for a virtually unbroken line of warfare, cruelty and human misery that extends back before recorded history. Essentially nationalism is a feel-good name for tribalism and those that wrap themsleves in various flags can justify all manner of atrocities in its good name. The US, among the many things it has to answer for, unleashed the horror of the atomic bomb on a civilian population -twice! And unnecessarily so-for as anyWW II history will show you, that was an action that hastened the war's end by a very short amount and at a horrific cost and Japan was already on the brink of capitulation. The action had much more to do with sending a message to the USSR and if the US was heel-bent on using it, they could have dropped it on some remote atoll to similar effect.

Yet we Americans don't really question that action very deeply, buying the line about ending the war etc. and somehow believing we are the good guys- just like every other nation on earth believes of itself.

I agree with your point about the scalability of tyranny however I do not agree that erasing national borders erase important cultural differences -just look at the British Ilses which maintains remarkable cultural diversity amid a relatively peaceful co-existence. An extension of your "borders are good" argument would justify the secession of the South during the Civil War as the South were merely trying to free themselves from the cultural, moral and economic tryranny of the North (there was that slavery thing too). Are we not better as a unified nation? We now have "soft" borders that allow cultural and legal differences and South Dakota is unlikely to attack Ohio. But when you talk of sovereign borders then people die.

Also I'm also not aware that the EU is trying tro impose "morals and culture" on one another- economic priorities, yes. Perhaps your aware of some developments that I'm not-I suppose it's possible.

I really think Annie is right- the people of the world have to see each other as Dave, Annie, Raeven, Drumminj etc for there to be hope for Humankind's survival. Perhaps to you and certainly a lot of other people that seems foolish and idealistic, but the reality is that we are one people, we live on one planet, we have deep mutual interests and it is possible to work together to help each other. we can't do that through a blind clinging to nationalism- the record is clear.

One of the primary reasons I want to leave the US is because I see an ugly and dangerous Nationalism on the rise. The American, people traumatised and fear stricken have lashed out like a wounded animal and have embraced a leader whose main appeal is that he goes out and bombs stuff-whether it's relevant to the 911 attacks or not. I'm not afraid of the terrorists as much as I am afraid of the American people, for they have shown judgement equally poor as that of their (un)elected leader.


Thanks for listening.

-Dave

[kamus]

For a good summary of many of these issues, here's a link to a speech made a few days ago by Michael Ruppert

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/PDF/Commonwealth.pdf

I used to read stuff like the above, and my first thought was "conspiracy theory." There certainly is a lot of fringe stuff out there that today I would consider conspiracy theory, but Michael Ruppert's writings I do believe.

Sorry for the rant, but the above is a big part of why I'm going to NZ. I am very much looking forward to NZ as in "going towards" vs. "running away" so it is a mixture of both.


Unbrand, I finally had the time to read Ruppert's speech. Yikes! I have no problem with the Peak Oil part of his speech but I'm flabbergasted by his assertions that Cheney et al had something to do with orchestrating 9/11. My wife actually has always believed it but whileI feel the administration took advantage of the attack, it's quite a jump to say they planned it! He claims he has evidence for this and I'll be very curious as to how well it holds up.

On the other hand, I'm beginning to believe this administration is capable of anything!

Thanks for posting the link- as I said, the Peak Oil stuff in the speech was right on the money. I've heard (uninformed) people mock these Peak Oil ideas -you know, "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"- except this time the sky really is falling and precious little is being done. I fear for the world my daughters will inherit. I pray that NZ will offer something of a haven from the insanity that will ensue.

-Dave

[karltsmith]

Yikes.....compelling reading and very scary! "The Pelican Brief" comes to life! :(

[Raeven]

Errr... what kamus said. To the letter. All of it.

Some days living in the US feels like a descent into madness. Where else can you learn that your country now has a federal budget deficit of $422 billion dollars and then hear from your administration that this is in fact a good thing? Or that over one thousand young people have now died in the name of fighting a war that has yet to be explained as just or right in any context, but that this too is a net positive? Or my current favorite: The intimation that if we as individual Americans vote for anyone other than Bush/Cheney in the upcoming election and a terrorist attack then occurs, it was our fault. The implication in that statement, apart from its sheer audacity and nastiness, is that we will have pissed off the terrorists by electing someone other than GWB.. so doesn't that mean the terrorists are happy with GWB? And what does that mean? And if (god forbid) GWB somehow ends up back in office (I hesitate to employ the term 'reelected') and a terrorist attack occurs, what does that mean?? Did the terrorists prefer John Kerry after all?? Oh, dear. Clearly I'm not nuts enough to grasp the complexities of all this stuff.

As someone who has always seen others as Dave, Drumminj, Annie, etc., I am fundamentally incapable of judging people on their nationality or their culture. There are things I enjoy about individual people; things I enjoy less in others -- but my feelings are not based on where they come from or their ethnicity. It turns my stomach when I hear someone casually explain someone else's behavior with a tossed-off comment: "Oh, well, he's Jewish -- what did you expect?" Or, "You know how those Mexicans are," accompanied by the Knowing Look. Therein lies the germination of racism and world conflict that endangers us all. We are all just people living on a planet and trying to survive as a species. I guess I'm just one of those crazy idealists with my head in the clouds. It's comforting to find some kindred souls.

Ranbling on, Rae

[drumminj]

On the other hand, it's hard to make a good argument for nationalism, which traditionally has been the cause, along with religion for a virtually unbroken line of warfare, cruelty and human misery that extends back before recorded history. Essentially nationalism is a feel-good name for tribalism and those that wrap themsleves in various flags can justify all manner of atrocities in its good name.

Dave, thank you for taking the time to respond. You raise very good points, and I agree with most of them. I wasn't trying to exclaim the virtues of nationalism. There's a large leap from having borders to being fanatically "patriotic."

You do make my point for me, though:

An extension of your "borders are good" argument would justify the secession of the South during the Civil War as the South were merely trying to free themselves from the cultural, moral and economic tryranny of the North (there was that slavery thing too).

I don't think it's an extension of my argument, I think it is my argument. The way this country was set up, we had borders - between the states. Any power not granted the federal goverment was guaranteed to the state (as per the Constitution). That way, each state could govern themselves based on their own needs, wants, beliefs, etc. While I don't agree with slavery (and according to many historians, that was *not* what the Civil war was about), I think the Southern states had a right to self-govern according to their needs. Likewise, although I don't agree with Mormonism, I think they should be able to take control of a state and govern themselves based on their beliefs. Polygamy can be legal. Girls can be married at a very young age, etc. Instead, they cannot do this because state-borders do not keep the Christian ideals and morals of the rest of the country from interfering with their lives.

Perhaps there could be a place that is more liberal and progressive - like California, but without the federal government arresting people for growing medicinal marijuana - which is legal to do in the state. But, again, the morals of people 2000 miles away, in a very different social climate, don't allow for that.

It makes sense for a 12 year old in the middle of Iowa to be able to drive, as he's helping on the farm, driving tractors and such down the road. But it doesn't make sense for a 12 year old in New York city to be able to drive, does it? Laws simplly cannot be applied universally like that, especially those legislating morality. Borders stop those laws. Without hard borders, the largest governing entity will continually grasp for more power, just as the federal government has.

And I would argue that many of the laws that govern based on morality affect the culture of an area. Mormon culture has changed - mormon "fundamentalists" are now outcasts, even though they are practicing a tenet of their religion that used to be common. I would guess that New Orleans is different now that they had to raise their drinking age to 21 to be able to qualify for federal road funds (though many may argue it's changed for the better).

Are we not better as a unified nation?

I don't think anyone could answer this question. I would argue "no" in many respects. But it's impossible to tell "what could have been", no?

One of the primary reasons I want to leave the US is because I see an ugly and dangerous Nationalism on the rise. The American, people traumatised and fear stricken have lashed out like a wounded animal and have embraced a leader whose main appeal is that he goes out and bombs stuff-whether it's relevant to the 911 attacks or not. I'm not afraid of the terrorists as much as I am afraid of the American people, for they have shown judgement equally poor as that of their (un)elected leader.


Agreed. Except that Bush *was* elected based on the laws on the books at the time. Plus, he got just shy of 50% of the vote. Would you be happier if Gore won, but only with 30% of the vote because there was a viable third-party candidate? Which is a better democratic outcome?

Good response.

J

[drumminj]

Also, I was not clear enough on one point.

I am also frightened by the flag-waving and "you're either with us or against us" attitude. Unquestioned allegiance is a scary thing, whether it's to a country, a college (I'm surrounded by Aggies and Longhorns. Ugh), or a "god". I will be very happy to leave the flags and yellow ribbons on the back of SUVs behind, for sure.

J

[kamus]

... There's a large leap from having borders to being fanatically "patriotic."

The way this country was set up, we had borders - between the states. Any power not granted the federal goverment was guaranteed to the state (as per the Constitution). That way, each state could govern themselves based on their own needs, wants, beliefs, etc. While I don't agree with slavery (and according to many historians, that was *not* what the Civil war was about),

<snip>

Bush *was* elected based on the laws on the books at the time. Plus, he got just shy of 50% of the vote. Would you be happier if Gore won, but only with 30% of the vote because there was a viable third-party candidate? Which is a better democratic outcome?




Thanks again for your thoughtful response, Drumminj

It seems you are making a case for States rights which is seemingly a shift from your first post on this topic. The phrase you used was "sovereign borders" Perhaps I'm misreading you and I invite you to correct me but there is a big difference between the "soft" border between the one that separates Virginia and West Virginia and the one that separates Korea and North Korea. As I said before when Sovereign borders arise, that's when people can die. I agree with you that borders of some sort are useful and while you cite good examples, the ones you cited were all within the sovereign border of the US and of locales highly unlikely to go to war with one another.

On a side note, as far as the Civil War goes, I was just reading last night about the history of historians attitudes regarding the reasons for the war. The author's contention was that the war really was about slavery but southern white "revisionist" historians, uncomfortable with that taint on the south have managed to create arguments to bolster non-slavery based reasons for the war. Those arguments have apparently been pervasive enough to become ingrained in the psyche of the populace. For I, like you, was of the mind that the reasons for the ranged farther afield than just slavery.

The author goes on to say that all one has to do is to look at the southern newspapers of the day in the period leading up to the war and one sees a singleminded obsession on one issue and one issue only: slavery.

Of course it makes complete sense when you think about it. Virtually the entire economy of the south depended on Slavery and with human beings it's always "the Economy, Stupid"

History is a slippery thing, isn't it?

I was confused by your reference to the 2000 election. I guess you were saying that Bush getting 50% of the vote is more "democratic" than if Gore won with 30% -the rest of the vote being split by other candidates who got less than 30%. But I may have misunderstood this point.

Well that's an interesting question that I won't debate right now but I do vehemently disagree with your assertion that "Bush *was* elected based on the laws on the books at the time".

No, I think there is a very good body of evidence to support the fact that the election was stolen. Between the numerous irregularites perpetrated by Jeb Bush and Kathleen Harris et al, the illegality of wrongly disenfranchised legitimate voters, the premature annoucement of Bush's victory by Fox ordered by a Bush family member who worked there and, above all, the outrageous partisan decision by the Supreme Court which contravened every relevant legal precedent in order to get their man in, one has to conclude that a lot of "laws of the land" had to be broken to install GWB in the white house.

Hey, we're still talking about New Zealand, right? :laugh

Hey Karl, what's the hot political topic of the day in NZ?

Also if you read down this far, I read somewhere where there was an op ed piece in a NZ newspaper (the herald?) urging NZIS to allow US applicants to come here as some sort of political refugees and noting that US applicants tended to be intelligent liberal and creative people who would be a real asset to NZ.
Does that ring a bell?


Thanks

Dave

[Raeven]

<quiet swagger>

[kamus]

my current favorite: The intimation that if we as individual Americans vote for anyone other than Bush/Cheney in the upcoming election and a terrorist attack then occurs, it was our fault. The implication in that statement, apart from its sheer audacity and nastiness, is that we will have pissed off the terrorists by electing someone other than GWB.. so doesn't that mean the terrorists are happy with GWB? And what does that mean? And if (god forbid) GWB somehow ends up back in office (I hesitate to employ the term 'reelected') and a terrorist attack occurs, what does that mean?? Did the terrorists prefer John Kerry after all?? Oh, dear.
Rambling on, Rae

Raeven, I just heard Cheney make that claim and I think it's a completely off the scale outrageous statement!! What's more outrageous is that fact that it won't generate the derision it deserves and instead will end up being an effective campaign strategy.

I really think US politics has gone off the deep end. God help us all.

With all of that raging in the background, I too take comfort in company of a few kindred souls

[Raeven]

Hi, Dave,

Like you, it left my jaw on the floor. They've been hinting at it for awhile; this is the first time they've actually come out and said it. It's not even a logical statement, but that doesn't seem to stop John Q. Public from thinking it makes sense!

Not long ago I heard someone of a Republican bent comment on national television about the large number of protesters appearing at GWB's political rallies. The person said, in effect and very angrily, that those protesters ought to be glad they were born in this country, because anywhere else they'd have been hauled off and thrown in jail (implication being that that's exactly where they belonged). I found myself literally unable to breathe for a moment.

We've gotten to an extremely scary place in our national political scene. I fervently believe that one day, this period of time will be viewed in history with shame and sorrow. And it ought to be.

I'm just glad NZ is willing to take us American refugees.

Rae

[drumminj]

It seems you are making a case for States rights which is seemingly a shift from your first post on this topic. The phrase you used was "sovereign borders" Perhaps I'm misreading you and I invite you to correct me but there is a big difference between the "soft" border between the one that separates Virginia and West Virginia and the one that separates Korea and North Korea. As I said before when Sovereign borders arise, that's when people can die. I agree with you that borders of some sort are useful and while you cite good examples, the ones you cited were all within the sovereign border of the US and of locales highly unlikely to go to war with one another.

While I agree that WV and Virginia most likely won't go to war, I think I made my case about soverign borders. Without them, federal law can supercede local law. If there is a governing body (say, the UN has the power to pass laws), then they can affect everyone. Only soverign borders can stop that. If CA was soverign, then the feds couldn't come in and bust the *legal* marijuana growers. This can be seen as an issue of states rights, true. But even with proper "States' rights", these problems can still arise - as per my examples.

I agree that, with soverign borders, there are more likely to be wars and such. But the borders aren't the problem. The problem is the people who insist on expanding those borders and their influence. But the borders ARE necessary, and sometimes bloodshed, to preserve one's culture and way of life (to defend against those who insist on expanding their own).


I was confused by your reference to the 2000 election. I guess you were saying that Bush getting 50% of the vote is more "democratic" than if Gore won with 30% -the rest of the vote being split by other candidates who got less than 30%. But I may have misunderstood this point.

Well, I wasn't saying either thing. Just kind of posing a question. First off, a common Democratic gripe is that Gore won the popular vote (not saying you're arguing this). That may be true, but 1) our president is decided by electoral, not popular vote, and 2) since it was so close, we'd need to do 3 recounts everywhere in the nation to be able to say who really won the popular vote.

But, regardless of all that, if ~50% of the people voted for the candidate in office, whether it's the candidate you wanted or not, that's pretty good for democracy. Especially since it's possible for someone to be voted president with far less than a majority of the votes, which means the person in power does not represent a very large number of the populace. I guess I'm just saying it's not so bad as some of the Democrats out there want to claim that it is. But I'm not saying I endorse either candidate, and am not ripping on you Democrats :)

Well that's an interesting question that I won't debate right now but I do vehemently disagree with your assertion that "Bush *was* elected based on the laws on the books at the time".

Fair enough.

Also if you read down this far, I read somewhere where there was an op ed piece in a NZ newspaper (the herald?) urging NZIS to allow US applicants to come here as some sort of political refugees and noting that US applicants tended to be intelligent liberal and creative people who would be a real asset to NZ.
Does that ring a bell?

I had thought about trying that route. Though I must admit, I'm not very politcally liberal. I don't know that my leanings can be categorized.

Part of me wants to abort this part of the thread, as you're clearly a better debater than I.

Rae, come back. We can stop debating and just make funny faces at each other!!!
:wah

J

[coastcat]

Hmm, so how could we prove that we're political refugees?

"Why do you feel qualified for political asylum?"
"Here's my voter registration card that states I'm a Democrat."
"Welcome to New Zealand."

:mrgreen:

[Raeven]

Ok, J, I can't let you twist in the wind any longer: :booby :cool :mrgreen: :eek :wah

There used to be an extremely cool dancing banana emoticon I could add to this, but sadly, it has gone walkabout!! :wah

You know the really marvelous thing about this thread? It's gone on for many days and many posts, yet it retains the rarefied virtue of being continuously civil in tone, respectful and open-minded. It has never degenerated into name-calling or, ummmm, male-genitalia-waving. It's been interesting as hell and refreshing to hear so many differing points of view. I think this is called a... let me think... if memory serves.. this is a.. discussion!!

I suppose it helps that we all mostly agree on the main points, and Dave in fact has the other half of my brain (I've been looking for that, incidentally!) -- but the main thing is, everyone here who has contributed has a well-reasoned, thoughtful point of view and cares deeply about making meaningful contributions. My figurative hat is off to all. :booby

BTW, I'm an independent voter.. I've voted Republican when I felt it was the right choice. Obviously I wouldn't argue that my views line up with classic Republican views very often. They don't. But I could never just mindlessly vote for a position or office because it was in the party interest. Lately when I hear the major Republican players talking -- Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and even Powell -- I wonder how they sleep at night. :no

Ok, back to silly emoticons!!! :angel :roll: :uhoh :wah :mrgreen:

Rae

[Moorf]

I have been lurking, reading and learning from this thread - v. interesting to hear what our cousins across the pond are thinking about their homeland.

:clap