New Zealand- Progressive or not?

jerjon · Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:36 am Post subject: New Zealand- Progressive or not?

Hi all. I would be interested in feedback and opinions on whether New Zealand is a more progressive country than say, the States. One of my main reasons for wanting to leave the US is the growing influence of conservative, fundamentalist christians in our political system and the growing intolerance on the part of many Americans for people who do not adhere to the ever narrowing mindset here. I was dissapointed to hear that in last week's Canadian elections, a good portion of the electorate did not even vote; those that did vote chose to fill parliament with almost a third of Conservative MPs (in my mind too similar to the corrupt Republican party in the States). The situation in Canada seems to becoming like the US, where the majority of people don't vote, don't care and are too glad to hand over power to those that would take advantage of the citizenry.

So...any opinions on New Zealand? Didn't get too good of a sense of this when we were down there last year except for a few folks who felt the Labour party "were just a bunch of socialists". Don't see too much about politics on the NZ websites although I know an election may be called for soon. I had read that The National party was leading in a few polls awhile back. Info on their website makes them sound awful like the Republicans here... Uhoh

Lisa.C · I Like It Here Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Posts: 75

Hi Jerjon.

I am From England, i didn't bother voting for the first time, we recently had European elections here, i have always been one to vote and moaned that not enough people do, i guess as you get older you realise it makes no real difference who you vote for, they all seem to have their own hidden agenda's. I hear the government in NZ is "a good one", Helen Clarke the PM seems to have alot of respect and support, i could be wrong things can change so quickly.

I'm sure you'll get replies from more informed people than me Confused

I don't think christian fundamentalists have much of a say in NZ though.
Nutcase

Lisa

Raeven · Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:41 pm Post subject:

Lisa.C said:

Lukas · Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject:

I would be curious to know a defintion of "Christian Fundamentalism"

Raeven · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:02 am Post subject:

Hi, Lukas,

I might be treading on dangerous ground, but I'll give you my own personal best definition of a Christian fundamentalist.

Christian fundamentalists are people whose religious beliefs include a strong belief in Jesus Christ and whose interpretations of the bible are strict and literal. When they say an eye for an eye, they're looking for something to gouge you with. Because their beliefs are so literal, it leaves no room for liberal or figurative interpretations of the bible's teachings, and my experience with these folks is that they are extremely intolerant of the views of others. Many of them also believe they are now living in the time of the Apocalypse and as a result, their interpretation of world events is colored through this perspective. Which means that, from their point of view, the current conflict in the Middle East is good, right and inevitable. Scary stuff.

Ok, I've said enough to piss off at least a few people, I'm sure. If you wish to discuss it further, please feel free to PM.

Rae

Lisa.C · I Like It Here Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Posts: 75

Hi Rae,

Just out of interest, what would you say is the percentage of Christians who feel this way?. I understand alot of Americans are very religious, that something like 90% go to church, very different from the English or Kiwi way of life i'd say, ooops i hope i haven't offended anyone too, but i think i'd be right in saying that. Yes

Lisa

Moorf · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:45 am Post subject:

I agree Lisa - and again, without wanting to generalise I think that this is more rife in the USA than Europe .... I'm not an expert tho' seeing as I am a committed athiest! Hmmm

Raeven · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:13 am Post subject:

Hi, Lisa and Moorf,

LOL, welllllll... even though I live in California and to some, that's practically like living in a different country, I can tell you that nothing close to 90% of people here go to church!! Not in California, not anywhere in the U. S. There are regions in the U. S. -- the southern states and Texas, for example -- where people are much more fundamentally religious than others. I once took a cross-country drive and was a bit shocked and uneasy at the amount of prosthelytizing that went on with the billboards as you made your way past the cornfields!! Thought I was in a different country for awhile!!

I would say it's closer to 50/50. About half the people in the country are openly religious and go to church regularly. The other half either practice their religion quietly and privately, or they aren't too concerned one way or the other. Me, I'm an agnostic in theory and an athiest in practice, and have been an interested observer of the religious phenomenon in this country all my life. I seldom encounter out-and-out hostility, although I don't impose my views on others. And very, very few attempt to impose their views on me. I've lived in some pretty conservative areas, and religion doesn't often enter into people's day-to-day dealings here. It's a private matter.

However, our current president is a Christian fundamentalist, and this has served to bring religion very much into the current political debate. As a strong supporter of the separation of church and state our country was founded upon, I am deeply troubled by what I see with the present administration. I look forward to living in a place where these issues remain personal and not political -- as they should.

Rae

Moorf · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:30 am Post subject:

Well said!

Lukas · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:14 am Post subject:

For Raeven

Well ...you ar a bit confusing me. Those who interpret strictly the Jesus Christ life and touths, principialy can't be untolerant and the principe of revenge "eye for eye" belong to the Old Testament not to to the New Testament (the Christ life and teachings) the fact that Christ on the cross was begging his father God to forget thos who are torturing hime because they don't know what they are dooing demonstrate what else if not the supreme tolerance.
I may agree that There may be several forms of Christian Fundamentalism based on certain interpretation of the Bible, but your example with "Imitatio Vita Christiana" (in latin) is not a point.

Raeven · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:25 am Post subject:

Hi, Lukas,

I'm totally not wishing to get into any kind of religious or philosophical debate.

You asked for a definition of Christian fundamentalism; I gave you one, clearly labeled with a disclaimer that it was my own personal definition. Further, I never said I agreed in any way with how these folks have defined Christianity. There are so many interpretations of those teachings -- Christian fundamentalism, as I understand it, is only one.

I suggest you debate this with an actual Christian fundamentalist. Then you'll understand what I mean. Very clearly.

Good luck to you. - Rae

Timbo · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:31 am Post subject:

Lukas. May I politely request that if it is a religeous or political debate you want, you find a more apropiate forum to do so. Thankyou.

Lukas · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:34 am Post subject:

...I have meet some...I was curious about your point...then I gave you mine without any intention to ofend you.

Timbo · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:57 am Post subject:

No problem...no offence taken here

jerjon · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:05 am Post subject:

Oops! Didn't mean to start a controversy! Like others from the States that have posted I am very concerned with the intrusion of religion into our public policies here in the States. Being non-Christian it can seem very threatening at times to continually hear our officials go on and on about what a great Christian nation the US is and how all our foreign policies (e.g. Iraq) are somehow divinely inspired. I would venture to guess a good majority of Americans feel that god has chosen the US to guide the rest of the world into becoming like us Eek

(rampant consumerism, incredibly expensive medical system, unaffordable medications, etc). My hope is that a place like NZ would be more progressive. For example, here in the states I think many would feel that a nationalized medical system is "communistic". Certainly any recognition that another country has a better "system" than the US is heresy here. So, any NZers have opinions on all this??